I could drop out TT1, APD1, ET1, AtS1, STx, HEx, TSSx out on a friendly at the same time.
Yes you can do that... healing just got more spiky. Seeing as everyone has been lamenting the rise of the super vaper the last few months is being able to super spike heals in response so bad ?
I also look at it this way.... IF I manage to get a healer to drop all that stuff on one guy. The healer isn't really holding much for a second target... or even himself.
Imagine you do throw all that stuff out on someone that just had a vaper decloak on them. You save them... good job. Now what happens when the Sci Vaper decloaks on you and nukes you ? Better hope that guy you just saved is so giving.
This is a pretty major change to the meta I agree there... I am just not seeing the doom and gloom of it.
Yes super setup heal ships just got an option to spike heal along with the spike dmg we are seeing... but its not free man. Putting all your heals on cool down is great if you really have to save someone. It does put you in a bit of a bind yourself for 14s at least though. This won't make Healers much more unkillable as some have made out. Engi toons in a super healer ship where already really really hard to kill... the way this change will work I don't think they get any more tanky at all really... I think it gets easier to fake out all there cool downs at once and in fact make them far less tanky.
Heh, while I generally dropped the TT2 for APD1...imagine being able to switch out the AtS1/ExS1 for an ET2...and there being no shared CD issues between the TT, ET, ST for that build? You'd be able to work the cleanses, resistance, and heals...cause there's nothing stopping you from stacking ExS, ST, TSS while you're dropping out ET, AtS, HE - and you can still drop out the TT at the same time.
You sort of made my point though. You are choosing to drop a resistance skill to slot that engi team. I don't think its worth it for a healer at all. Having said that it is a viable CHOICE. I think in some fights ET would be better to have... and in others it 100% would not be. To me this is another CHOICE for a healer... not a defacto this is better. IT a flavor option... you will be a super tanker healer either way... do you want to focus on catching massive spikes... or focus on providing the best resistance roll to resist FAW and other Presure dmg.
It is easy to say yes I will drop the hull resist skill and focus on the shield resist skills... but if that became the norm... people would just adapt the dmg to be more direct to hull. (frankly that is where we are look at all the DEM around the last 4 or 5 months... shield resistance got nuts with fleet shields people started going bleed through builds)
Um...that's not the only cleanse for it. And you're not the only person there - so you don't have to carry the cleanse yourself. And even without the cleanse, you can still tank the damage without shields...and...yeah...I just don't get this.
It may apply to certain builds - in which case they're dependent on somebody else, but this is a MMO...
The borg, they got two procs: one is cleared by HE another is cleared by TT. And since rotating TT is pretty much standard I was actually surprised to find out there's a second one. And even I get a lot more heals in pug ques than I did few years ago, still can't rely on them being there.
Besides, I did say "pve build" didn't I? And PVE usually means following three till you finish the rep
* dyson space sphere for daily joint
* STFs
* cee for nukara marks
So I was considering letting my romulan sci repping in palisad in either format (tac3/sci4/sci3/eng2 or tac4/sci3/sci3/eng2) with beams and torps. Got impressive 0.9k dps in ISE and put him into torp tvaro inspired by certain Willard the Rat.
Yes you can do that... healing just got more spiky. Seeing as everyone has been lamenting the rise of the super vaper the last few months is being able to super spike heals in response so bad ?
IMHO yes...because I'm not a fan of the yo-yo mechanics. I'm a balance by balancing guy, not a balance by buffing everything out the wahzoo so that the yo-yo extremes become even more extreme. Sometimes instead of adding more, you need to take away some.
ET is one of those abilities you only really need an Ensign version of (if at all); and it's also about the only useful Ensign Engineering ability available, next to the EPtX series.
It's actually the only alternative to EP2X at the ensign level. In space, at least. One of the reasons for this was actually the re-featuring of the Galaxy - a ship that has 3 ensign engineering slots. =3
You sort of made my point though. You are choosing to drop a resistance skill to slot that engi team. I don't think its worth it for a healer at all. Having said that it is a viable CHOICE. I think in some fights ET would be better to have... and in others it 100% would not be. To me this is another CHOICE for a healer... not a defacto this is better. IT a flavor option... you will be a super tanker healer either way... do you want to focus on catching massive spikes... or focus on providing the best resistance roll to resist FAW and other Presure dmg.
It is easy to say yes I will drop the hull resist skill and focus on the shield resist skills... but if that became the norm... people would just adapt the dmg to be more direct to hull. (frankly that is where we are look at all the DEM around the last 4 or 5 months... shield resistance got nuts with fleet shields people started going bleed through builds)
it's dropping AtS1 when AtS3 is already there...never saw the point of both. Or it's dropping the shield heal ExS1 for the hull heal/cleanse ET1. Still having the other ExS in place. Perhaps Renim switched AtS1/ExS2/ExS3 and ExS1/ExS2/AtS3 depending on what was going on so that it was never both AtS1 and AtS3.
But again, there's so much diminishing returns on hull resists. There's a big difference between a group that's got 2-3x Sci dropping out those SNBs and where you may not even have a Sci.
IMHO yes...because I'm not a fan of the yo-yo mechanics. I'm a balance by balancing guy, not a balance by buffing everything out the wahzoo so that the yo-yo extremes become even more extreme. Sometimes instead of adding more, you need to take away some.
Well, you know, you could always just pick up another TRIBBLE driver...
It's actually the only alternative to EP2X at the ensign level. In space, at least. One of the reasons for this was actually the re-featuring of the Galaxy - a ship that has 3 ensign engineering slots. =3
That makes me think about the AtB JHEC guy I deleted...cause I'd run 3x Eng on him
EPtS1, AtB1, DEM2
EPtW1, AtB1
ET1, RSP1
But it does have that feeling, in stopping to think about, as something to stave off complaints about the 3x Eng Ensign boats out there. You can run the ET and not mess with your TT or ST...
Seriously...leave all abilities as they are and just let every team auto-distribute - sure, skilled players/macro users could get 100% auto distribute uptime by staggering; but for most it would mean you could run a team of your choice and not have a valuable tac slot filled with an ability that is only used for its auto-distribute
The combination of parts 1 and 4 meant that Engineering powers (Emergency Power to Shields) were the most frequent Shield heals, and Science powers (Hazard Emitters) were the most frequent Hull heals. This is contrary to the desired niches of the abilities.
Could you maybe shed some light on why and when the "desired niches" of these abilities changed?
According to the explanations in the S1.2 cooldown rebalancing, these abilities were intended to be:
Emergency Power to Shields: Main instant self shield heal.
Science Team: Reserve instant shield heal.
Transfer Shield Strength: Main ally shield heal (instant + HoT).
EPtS being the main shield heal and HE being the main hull heal seems to be entirely in-line with these design principles. In fact at least my data for 2012 shows that AtSIF and HE as well as EPtS and TSS were used for comparable levels of healing. It is true that the team abilities had a considerably smaller part in the total healing, but being designed as "reserve heals", this seems to be working as (originally) intended.
The combination of parts 1 and 4 meant that Engineering powers (Emergency Power to Shields) were the most frequent Shield heals, and Science powers (Hazard Emitters) were the most frequent Hull heals. This is contrary to the desired niches of the abilities.
The thing is, though, is HE actually a Sci ability? Pop open the skill tab, take notice of the subcategories there for space, eh?
Tactical Systems
Engineering Systems
Science and Operation Systems
HE's not a Science ability...it's an Operation ability. It's one of the reasons that it has come up so often that it and potentially other Science abilities appear as if they were "stolen" from Engineering.
If one takes a look at a breakdown of Starfleet divisions (based on uniform), there are the following:
Command (could be conn/helm, or anybody from another division in a command position)
Operations (engineers, tactical, security)
Science (science and medical)
We don't have that in STO, and not only do we not have that - but some Operations stuff is tossed in with Science (taken from Tac/Eng).
So in seeing that certain things are off, perhaps it is not really a case that they are off - but the desired manner in which they should have been is off. Why wold you want Science to be the primary shield heal? You wouldn't. You would want Operations to be the primary shield heal. Well, Operations in STO is split between Eng and Sci...so why would things not fit that? Likewise, hull heals would be Operations...and again in STO that is split between Eng and Sci.
We can take a further look at the two abilities mentioned though...and...why they might have the predominance that they do, eh?
Starting with EPtS, I don't want to say it's obvious - but it would appear pretty simple, no? There are only 5 Ensign Engineering abilities available. The EPtX abilities can be maintained with full uptime either through AtB or using DCE DOFFs. Given the limited need for EPtE and EPtA in many builds, the likely pairing of EPtX abilities would be EPtW/EPtS or even folks running 2x EPtS to maintain that uptime. Add in Eng with EPS Manifold Efficiency, etc, etc, etc - it shouldn't be difficult to see why EPtS would show in any metrics as the primary shield heal being used. Heck, it's not just a heal either - it's also boosting shield damage reduction as well as repairing disabled shields. ExS can only be used on other targets, RSP has a longer CD, TSS is a HoT (and also an ability unlikely to be available to many ships because of limited Sci BOFF seating)...etc, etc, etc...EPtS as the primary heal should come as no surprise.
Looking at HE, again - I don't want to say it's obvious; but it pretty much is, no? It's not just a HoT, it's also a cleanse and provides additional damage resistance. While AtS provides additional resistance and a direct heal instead of a HoT - it doesn't provide the cleanse that HE does (Borg?). ET provides a spike heal without additional resistance - but the cleanse is bugged in it doesn't remove DOFF'd VM (heck, sometimes it doesn't even remove the initial VM) and it doesn't repair all disabled subsystems. HE1 cleanses as well as HE3, and that combination of the cleanse (DoTs, Tyken's, etc) with the HoT and the resistance...there should be no surprise that it's showing as the primary hull heal.
Removing the shared CDs is not going to make ET replace HE nor ST replace EPtS. All it is going to do is create additional healing/cleansing possibilities that can adversely affect certain aspects of the game.
If you wanted to make something else the primary shield or hull heal, then you'd need to take a look at how good the abilities are that are out of line with what you desire. Given all the work that was put into buffing the EPtX abilities, it's unlikely that they would see any form of balanced tweaking done for EPtS. Which unfortunately (imho) would require buffing of the other shield heal abilities to the point that they were even more OP than EPtS is...the same would go for HE. It would be a case of saying, "X may be OP, but take a look at what we've done to Y!" Would that really be good for the game?
Or would it be easier to accept that Eng is Operations, so it makes sense that you'd find shield healing going on there and that Sci is really Sci/Operations - so it would make sense that you'd find hull healing going on there?
Engineering Ensign and Science stations were far less desirable than intended due to Science Team and Engineering Team being on CD when Tactical Team was used. This was discussed back when the DDeridex was created and again now when we relaunched the Galaxy.
I wouldn't include Sci Ensign abilities anywhere near Eng Ensign abilities. Not by a long shot...
There are 5 Eng Ensign abilities. Heck, let's take an overall look at them as a whole, eh?
Tac
Ensign: 9 (6 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Lt: 15 (6 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
LCdr: 16 (6 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 3 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Cmdr: 6 (2 share a CD, 3 share a CD)
Eng
Ensign: 5 (4 share a CD)
Lt: 12 (4 share a CD, 3 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
LCdr: 14 (4 share a CD, 3 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Cmdr: 7 (2 share a CD)
Sci
Ensign: 8 (0 share a CD)
Lt: 15 (2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
LCdr: 18 (2 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Cmdr: 10 (2 share a CD)
("share a CD" references a triggered CD from using one ability, along the lines of what previously existed for the Team abilities)
So I can definitely see folks complaining about Eng Ensign abilities and I can see the complaint about Tac Ensign abilities...Sci Ensign though? Yeah, no...not outside of folks wanting Lt/En so they can run DCE'd EPtX abilities...but that's not a complaint about Sci Ensign abilities as much as it is a complaint about not being able to run DCE'd EPtX abilities while still having the Lt Eng BOFF available for either RSP or AtS.
While removing the shared CDs on the Team abilities applies a generic storebrand bandaid to the Eng issue, there's no Sci issue there and it does nothing for the Tac issue.
Its definitely intentional. We want players to be able to use Engineering Team and Science Team, but we recognize the importance of Tactical Team in the currently widespread gameplay pattern adopted by many players. We want to make Tactical Team less mandatory over time (and in fact think the power itself is quite overloaded in terms of what it does), but bringing Tac Teams effectiveness down substantially would be more disruptive than allowing players to use Sci and Eng Team in conjunction with Tac Team. Were also hopeful that players will now be more willing to use Science and Engineering Teams on allied players once this change is made, since they wont have to make as much of a choice between selfishness and selflessness as they did before.
Hrmm, I'm having trouble following the logic behind that thought process...and actually, I've got a general problem with the Team thing that I'll get to in a bit.
Okay, so the thought process is:
Joe Random feels the need for TT - thus, he's not going to equip ET or ST - and as such, he's not going to use either ability to help out a fellow player. So let's let Joe Random use ET or ST even when he's using TT.
How do you make the leap from having those abilities available to Joe Random using them on somebody else? Even the TT can be used on somebody else. Heck, it's a trip that folks will thank other folks for heals when all they tossed was a TT.
So is there really the belief that folks will toss out the ET/ST (even equip them over other heals) to folks and not just use them for themselves? The availability of them won't magically make people less selfish. What kind of metrics do you have on folks using AtS/TSS on others vs. themselves?
And then there's the issue I personally have with using Teams on other folks to begin with...uh...just how are we doing that? Transporting them over? They transport back? Uh...yeah...just how are we even able to use Teams on other folks in the first place?
The metagame in general is dominated by choices that are too good compared to the other choices available. This leaves players dissatisfied with false choice. For instance, Beam Fire at Will is ostensibly an AoE power, but deals more damage to a single-target than normal Beam Fire does. Conversely, Beam Overload is a single-target damage power, but actually lowers the users medium-term DPS despite providing burst due to its more-than-substantial power drain, and due to competing with Fire at Will for a power slot. Long term, the more real (nontrivial) choices we can present players with, the happier they will be with the game. This is exemplified in our Trait revamp and our upcoming Kit Revamp, and our ongoing efforts to make all of our ship classes competitive with each other but in different ways.
Hrmm, this one - I should have probably split into multiple sections...meh. Oh well...
Want to address that issue with FAW? Then address it. FAW currently does multiple things. It increases the number of shots - even with a single target. It increases the damage of each shot. It can attack multiple targets. If it's meant to be an AoE ability, then make it an AoE ability. Attack multiple targets, reduced number of shots or same number of shots with reduced damage. But again, that's not what it is. It's a mix of CRF and CSV. It's BRF as much as it is BSV. 5 shots with increased damage in 4 seconds instead of 4 shots with normal damage in 4 seconds...yeah, it's BRF. That it can do that to two targets (not necessarily the same two targets) adds in the BSV element. Like...um...hello? It's a massively OP ability.
Okay, I'm going to split out that last part again...it's easier that way.
our ongoing efforts to make all of our ship classes competitive with each other but in different ways.
This is swell and all, but when the content doesn't require that in the least...you'll never be able to do that. Certain ships and certain ship classes will always outperform others because that's the nature of the content.
Seriously...leave all abilities as they are and just let every team auto-distribute - sure, skilled players/macro users could get 100% auto distribute uptime by staggering; but for most it would mean you could run a team of your choice and not have a valuable tac slot filled with an ability that is only used for its auto-distribute
most tac ships have 1 if not 2 TT the ens tac slot really only has few useful powers. If you are Cannon torp escort HYT1 and TS1 are your only option. If you are cannon DBB escort BOL is your only option above TT, Beam target skills are laughable. Cruisers would probably use RSP as the oh TRIBBLE similar to TT. Sci ships will probably slot a TT in their tac ens slot since a lot of their stuff is sci driven not tac boff driven. The hybrids are mixed bag.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
When you think about beyond the current or past meta the entire method of STO gameplay is so heavily dominated by buffs and debuffs which is the heart of the problem.
Emergency Power to Shields is so powerful because it effectively double or triples the strength of your shields all day long. Thanks to the resistance boost, heal, and the power boost which acts as a second resistance boost and a heal over time or regeneration boost.
Should one power be that powerful on it's own? Have that many powerful effects? Granted it is required because of how strong offensive buffs are but is that not also a problem?
Then we have the Tactical Team cleanse effect. When fighting borg if you get an assimilate ship debuff you are pretty much out of the fight if you cannot clear it. Your damage output becomes dismal and survival is unlikely. Should any single debuff be that strong?
In STO it's not like you get hit with a debuff and survive. You either clear it or die. And if your own buffs are active your ship becomes an invincible hero ship spewing instant death to your enemies.
They have attempted to mitigate this with all the passive boosts thrown at us over the years. The problem is having Fleet Shields resistance stacks does not make EPtS any less desirable. Quite the contrary it makes EPtS grant even more tankiness to your ship.
An across the board nerf to all boff abilities is in order IMHO. Cut the resistance provided by EPtS to a third. Cut the dmg boosts of FaW and CRF in half at the same time. Just as an example.
Make it harder to clear debuffs but at the same time make those debuffs less ... destructive at the same time.
This will help reduce the two major problems of STO gameplay. The swinginess of PvP combat and reduce the ever growing gap between the average player and the good player.
Speaking of that gap cause I'm rambling anyway I've been doing an experiment lately. In ISE on my ships that can solo one side I've been going right instead of left and doing so. Over half the time I do that the other four players loose the optional as I'm just a touch too slow to get over to the left and help out.
Think about that. I'm not top tier, my builds are good but hardly fully optimized with P2W doffs/consoles. I'm not a leet member of a DPS4million channel nor a member of an elite PvP premade. And over half the time I outperform 4 other players combined. It's a sad.
Crew is silly right now. We could pretty much pull it out of the game, buff everyone's out-of-combat regeneration, and nobody would notice. It's on our short list of orphaned powers features. If anyone feels strongly that it should be left in the game, I'd be interested in hearing what you wish it did.
How about we get powers that have effects along the lines and potency of batteries that "consume" crew. Every time you use this power, it deducts X number of able crew. Doing so could heal for a small amount (like 1000 HP), repair a disabled subsystem, add 10 power to a system, etc. Give like a 10s GCD on these powers (additionally putting a specific power at a 10s specific CD as well).
The Rom and Klingon ships could fire off a bunch in a shorter period of time, since they have more crew levels, in general; So Fed ships should probably have a (much) higher crew regen rate both alive and able; or just scrap the difference and have these crew consumable powers and torpedoes just subtract straight crew. Though, the crew regen rate on even KDF and Rom vessels should still be such that they can see crew come back once or more over the course of one match/session/queue.
Crew is silly right now. We could pretty much pull it out of the game, buff everyone's out-of-combat regeneration, and nobody would notice. It's on our short list of orphaned powers features. If anyone feels strongly that it should be left in the game, I'd be interested in hearing what you wish it did.
I would like to see it tied to non-combat QoL features, maybe up to an in place self-rez. As part of that, I'd think losing crew should be harder and replenishing should require a visit to a hub.
Hawk could you please , Use http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/ and post a build, for any ship of your choosing and explain it , down to the layout of the Doffs configuration , please?
crew, i think have quite a bit of potential. the math behind crew should make its all but impossible to have more then 33% of your crew dead at any point. also, no more then 50% injured. 100% dead crew at any time is absolutely TRIBBLE. with a few exceptions, like a theta cloud could knock you down to 66% injured, eventually. crew number, not %, should have a tiny impact on how much of a time gap there is between regeneration and redistribute tics, and how quickly heal over time tics are applied to you or allies.
the best way to decouple TT and the shield distribute is to create another team skill for tac, hell another for eng and sci too. all starting at ENS like normal, no systems cooldowns on anything.
security team- clears tactical debuffs, can bring only the weapons subsystem back on line, clears boarders
tactical team- just the distribute, 7, 10, 13 seconds long depending on rank
eng team- eng debuff clear, fixes shields and engine subsystems, hull heal
operations team- a crew based 15 second long buff to pretty much every offensive skill on the skill tree, energy, kinetic, crit, acc, particle, grav, EPS, core potentual, flow cap, etc. have this last 15 seconds, so 2 copies can keep it on all the time so it becomes another passive more or less. maybe a small bonus if you have an android boff slotted? lol, just a thought.
science team- clear sci debuffs, can fix just the off-lined aux system, and shield heal
medical team- an over time crew heal that last 15 seconds, so 2 copies can keep it on all the time so it becomes another passive more or less. flat buffs to defensive sci skills
operations team's passive buffs to skill tree skills are based on crew, specifically number of crew and not % alive. proboly should have some diminishing returns after 1000 crew though. so, your gonna want medical team around to keep your crew alive to keep ops teams benefit high.
i see a ton of team synergy that can grow from this, especially from sci based healers sporting everyone's crew. and for non battlecloakers, these passives running all the time will boast ships that cant run from a fight to be tougher, but they wont serve as much purpose on war birds who's best option will always be to alpha and cloak asap. the staggeringly bad galaxy R would be helped quite a bit here too, it could run ET1/3 and OT1/3 and actually be able to use all those eng skills it has.
oh, but AtB will make an exploitative mockery of OT and MT. well, at the same time these get released, release a doff that at purple tier extends the passive duration of OT and MT by 15 seconds, and boost its effect by 5%. so with 1 doff and 1 copy you get full uptime without AtB, so AtB doesn't need to be nerfed, and tears dont need to be shed about anything.
other skill changes
EWP- should offline engines for as long as they are in the cloud. it would act like an energy drain, and the plasma cloud DOT should act like a minor energy drain even if your out of it so it restores engine power back to normal slower. EWP is supposed to be clogging your engines intakes with hot air and overheating them. though thats pretty lol if you knew how impulse engines work, its a good game mechanic
boarding party- so it works like it did in SFC. dont give me any BS about how you cant use something from that game, how boarding parties worked there is not copyrighted. basically, boarders are beamed over when a shield facing facing you is breached. thus, BP should be one of those skills that is passively on, waiting for its opportunity to be used on your target. make it another one of those skills you cycle every 15 seconds. this would make security team i talked about a must have vs someone with this. this can help cruisers be more offensive without dealing more weapons damage then escorts
the shuttle based boarding parties, make them the type 8 shuttle pets. set to intercept, they will act like normal type 8s, but on attack they will fly and try to land troops.
energy siphon- make this another one of those skills you can keep on all the time if you cycle 2 copies. another way to get some benefits from AtB builds without having to run AtB.
Guys, I don't like to be the only one who always disagree, but ... are you crazy ?
I mean, do you know what are the consequences of this ?
Cruisers are already though: a single escort won't be able to kill a well built cruiser.
Imagine how though they will be when they can use ET and ST too.
An ENTIRE fleet won't be able to kill a well built cruiser after this.
Not to talk about Science Vessels: they'll become unkillable.
1.43 (fleet shield mod) + 125 Aux + ST + TSS + HE + ET + TT + EPTS + A2SIF ... and maybe an ENG captain O_O
HOW THE F**K AM I SUPPOSED TO KILL SUCH A MONSTER ???
TELL ME !!
guys, I Don't Like To Be The Only One Who Always Disagree, But ... Are You Crazy ?
I Mean, Do You Know What Are The Consequences Of This ?
Cruisers Are Already Though: A Single Escort Won't Be Able To Kill A Well Built Cruiser.
Imagine How Though They Will Be When They Can Use Et And St Too.
An Entire Fleet Won't Be Able To Kill A Well Built Cruiser After This.
Not To Talk About Science Vessels: They'll Become Unkillable.
1.43 (fleet Shield Mod) + 125 Aux + St + Tss + He + Et + Tt + Epts + A2sif ... And Maybe An Eng Captain O_o
How The F**k Am I Supposed To Kill Such A Monster ???
Tell Me !!
Sorry Guys, I Can't Be Happy Of This New
How The F**k Am I Supposed To be Killedby such A Monster ???
Tell Me !!
On topic though, I don't really care. On the whole I think it's a good idea and I'm sorry Mancom but quoting stuff about game design from S1.2 is at best outdated. I mean this is certainly not the same game it was at launch, no way no how.
DDIS the last thing we need is more abilities, I don't have the data but I would say at least 20% of the total abilities we do have aren't used much at all.
On the whole I think it's the best decision to be made. I mean think about the problem and possible solutions and for once in your lives think outside your niche and about how this affects players from all ends of the spectrum.
Sure I would prefer shield distribution decoupled from tactical team and tactical team buffed but that opens the problem of what do you do with tactical team? Even I am grasping at straws thinking of how to buff it without either making it much better than the others or pretty useless. So yeah, work to implement vs returns it's certainly one of the best options.
On the whole I think it's the best decision to be made. I mean think about the problem and possible solutions and for once in your lives think outside your niche and about how this affects players from all ends of the spectrum.
I don't want to! So there!
If they're having difficulty doing "Elite" content, then maybe they shouldn't be doing "Elite" content. If they're having difficulty doing anything, maybe they need to make some friends and work through it together. There are folks doing endgame content in T1 ships (I can't, but I'm just an average gamer)...so if there are folks that are geared out the wahzoo and are still having problems, maybe - just maybe - they need to accept that they're the problem and not that the game is too hard. How far can Cryptic nerf the content and how far can they buff the players before they get a video conference call from CBS, Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula...where they all do a synchronized /facepalm? Can see Wheaton sneaking into the call and dropping out the L on the forehead before disconnecting...
Removing the shared CDs is not going to make ET replace HE nor ST replace EPtS. All it is going to do is create additional healing/cleansing possibilities that can adversely affect certain aspects of the game.
I have yet to hear anyone claim ET will replace ST; or EPtS, no less. All removing the shared CD will do, is make ET a bit more un-obstructed on ships like a Fleet Excelsior (in Ensign slot), where you can now actually use that 3rd Ensign position, for a change.
And I can foresee situations (on my own loadouts) where I might replace that single TSS1 with ST1 (against Voth).
If they're having difficulty doing "Elite" content, then maybe they shouldn't be doing "Elite" content. If they're having difficulty doing anything, maybe they need to make some friends and work through it together. There are folks doing endgame content in T1 ships (I can't, but I'm just an average gamer)...so if there are folks that are geared out the wahzoo and are still having problems, maybe - just maybe - they need to accept that they're the problem and not that the game is too hard. How far can Cryptic nerf the content and how far can they buff the players before they get a video conference call from CBS, Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula...where they all do a synchronized /facepalm? Can see Wheaton sneaking into the call and dropping out the L on the forehead before disconnecting...
...I mean, c'mon.
I wasn't thinking that, if someone sucks, content shouldn't become easier, they should learn.
However we've all faced the conundrum of having either 3rd ens sci/eng station but don't want it to mess with TT rotation (which is only used for the shield distro, which could be automized ) and it now lets us actually use it without having to spend 6-12 months balancing out the team abilities to much groaning of either PvE/PvPers claiming OP/UP.
It means people are not going to be massively penalised for having what is a very frequently generated boff ability. Like I say don't think of people doing an STF finding it hard.
Think of the person sat there RPing and going hmmm my shields are down *dramatic pose "Dispatch the science team to bring them back up!" *clicks ability* hmmm I need to fix my stuctural integrity....*dramatic pose* "Engineering team, we need you to hold her together!"
Then also think of the persons spaced out on drugs (we'll assume legally obtained with a prescription) who really don't even have a clue where they are. Now they're not super penalised for picking 2 heals in totally different boff ability classes.
But lets cut the c***, we all know what this is about, shield distribution primarily. This is about how tactical team is vastly more useful to 90% of the playerbase than the other two combined. The only option better than this would either be more damage creep or making tactical team completely useless again.
If you really think about this, to those that understand how the game works it's not a big deal, it means you might slot ET/ST on certain ships in certain circumstances. Most of my builds will not change, AtSIF is still the better option than ET on most of my builds. ST may get a look in on my A2B build. TT will be spammed as much as usual. All it does it bring 2 dismissed abilities into consideration before being dismissed which I believe is what they wanted.
However in PvP I can see this dominating: TT/FAW2/APO1 EptS1/A2B/RSP2/DEM3
EptW1/A2B
ET ST1/HE2
If you listen carefully you can hear Mimey cheering as he runs down the street naked.
Yes, I know what I'm about to say is very selfish - but it's not really a case of dismissing what anybody else feels, it's just being selfish. :P
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Engineering slots is because there's only 5 Ensign Engineering abilities - where 4 of them share a CD and then there's ET. Meaning that I'm usually going to have EPtX1/EPtY1/ET1 or EPtX1/EPtX1/ET1...with no higher EPtX/Y ability nor any higher ET ability. The "penalty" comes from there only being 5 abilities to select. Allowing me to use ET at the same time as TT or ST does not change that. That's not something I saw as a "penalty" - it was just a choice. It's a softer choice than many of the choices in the game...mix Projectiles and Energy - there's a "penalty" because of the Tac consoles. Mixing Cannons and Beams...where perhaps I don't have the room for all the abilities for them...that's a softer choice, along the lines of TT/ET/ST.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Science slots is on a boat without a LCdr Eng station...because I basically like to have 3 Eng abilities (either EPtX1/EPtY1/AtS1 or EPtX1/EPtX1/AtS1)...so if I've got 3 Ensign Sci slots without the LCdr Eng, that means I'm either giving up an EPtX ability or the AtS ability. The same would apply to having 3 Ensign Tac slots...because I like having those three Eng abilities. It's what I'm comfortable with. There's no shortage of Ensign Sci abilities, and on a ship with the following BOFF layout...
X, X,X, X X, X, X X, X, X, X X, X
X
...I'm more than fine being able to select from all those Sci abilities. For me, there's no direct punishment from having 3 Ensign Sci. Hell, for almost a year I flew a Sci Hegh'ta with 4x Sci BOFFs.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Tactical slots (outside of what I mentioned about the 3x Eng abilities) comes down to the need to mix certain weapons or having wasted Tac abilities - which comes down to the available Tac abilities, where you've got the 4 BtSX abilities, FAW, BO that all trigger a shared CD, TT, and TS/HY which also trigger a shared CD now that you can't instastack them.
So basically, my feeling "penalized" with Tac Ensigns and Eng Ensigns comes from the available choices...not that TT/ET shared a CD with each other and ST. I mean, c'mon - that's like I can't use FBP and TSS...I can't use RSP and ExS. Not being able to use TT/ET/ST at the same time wasn't a penalty...it was just a choice. Heck, I can't drop out EPtS, EPtA, EPtE, EPtW at the same time - sure, I can have two up at the same time eventually, but I can't drop them out at the same time. Is that a "penalty"...or is it just a choice - just a mechanic?
At what point are we going to end up with Attack Pattern Geko where we can play STO with an Atari 2600 joystick where we just maneuver the ship and press the big red button to do everything? Well, because to do anything else would be "penalizing" the player?
Yes, I know what I'm about to say is very selfish - but it's not really a case of dismissing what anybody else feels, it's just being selfish. :P
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Engineering slots is because there's only 5 Ensign Engineering abilities - where 4 of them share a CD and then there's ET. Meaning that I'm usually going to have EPtX1/EPtY1/ET1 or EPtX1/EPtX1/ET1...with no higher EPtX/Y ability nor any higher ET ability. The "penalty" comes from there only being 5 abilities to select. Allowing me to use ET at the same time as TT or ST does not change that. That's not something I saw as a "penalty" - it was just a choice. It's a softer choice than many of the choices in the game...mix Projectiles and Energy - there's a "penalty" because of the Tac consoles. Mixing Cannons and Beams...where perhaps I don't have the room for all the abilities for them...that's a softer choice, along the lines of TT/ET/ST.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Science slots is on a boat without a LCdr Eng station...because I basically like to have 3 Eng abilities (either EPtX1/EPtY1/AtS1 or EPtX1/EPtX1/AtS1)...so if I've got 3 Ensign Sci slots without the LCdr Eng, that means I'm either giving up an EPtX ability or the AtS ability. The same would apply to having 3 Ensign Tac slots...because I like having those three Eng abilities. It's what I'm comfortable with. There's no shortage of Ensign Sci abilities, and on a ship with the following BOFF layout...
X, X,X, X X, X, X X, X, X, X X, X
X
...I'm more than fine being able to select from all those Sci abilities. For me, there's no direct punishment from having 3 Ensign Sci. Hell, for almost a year I flew a Sci Hegh'ta with 4x Sci BOFFs.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Tactical slots (outside of what I mentioned about the 3x Eng abilities) comes down to the need to mix certain weapons or having wasted Tac abilities - which comes down to the available Tac abilities, where you've got the 4 BtSX abilities, FAW, BO that all trigger a shared CD, TT, and TS/HY which also trigger a shared CD now that you can't instastack them.
So basically, my feeling "penalized" with Tac Ensigns and Eng Ensigns comes from the available choices...not that TT/ET shared a CD with each other and ST. I mean, c'mon - that's like I can't use FBP and TSS...I can't use RSP and ExS. Not being able to use TT/ET/ST at the same time wasn't a penalty...it was just a choice. Heck, I can't drop out EPtS, EPtA, EPtE, EPtW at the same time - sure, I can have two up at the same time eventually, but I can't drop them out at the same time. Is that a "penalty"...or is it just a choice - just a mechanic?
At what point are we going to end up with Attack Pattern Geko where we can play STO with an Atari 2600 joystick where we just maneuver the ship and press the big red button to do everything? Well, because to do anything else would be "penalizing" the player?
I agree with you as far as the distinct lack of compelling choices at the engineering and tactical ensign level. I always felt attack pattern delta could have been lowered a tier, a new ability added, or even lowering the mine abilities a tier, or heck even unhooking subsystem targeting from other beam abilities and allowing it to work on any energy weapon without sharing a cooldown with other weapon powers.
Additionally I really wish either hazard emitters or polarize hull were engineering. Or even drop the auxiliary to structure or auxiliary to dampeners down a tier would work. Or add a new group of offensive engineering abilities like a torpedo modification ability would be amazing.
But yeah.
As for Attack Pattern Geko as long as Cryptic continues to fail and capitalize on valuable tutorial player teaching options, like when the player is given an endgame ship with an absolutely terrible weapon selection it won't help. Attack Pattern Geko with 3 beam arrays, a dual beam bank, an aft torpedo, and a dual cannon will still be terrible.
i feel punished, I have every rep set item. But when iput the Borg plasma torp the rommie torp, gravimetric torp and the two breen toros into my intrepid, I can't fire my tricobalt and temporal torps. Ts also makes HY go grey. I really feel punished by this. Can we not remove all cd together? How about not requiring weapons slots for elite grind weapons? After all I played for them
i feel punished, I have every rep set item. But when iput the Borg plasma torp the rommie torp, gravimetric torp and the two breen toros into my intrepid, I can't fire my tricobalt and temporal torps. Ts also makes HY go grey. I really feel punished by this. Can we not remove all cd together? How about not requiring weapons slots for elite grind weapons? After all I played for them
Terrible example. They did not allow you to have more total boff abilities whereas you are asking effectively for more weapon slots. Secondly they did infact remove the former long cooldown in between torpedo launches. Lastly try using Torpedo Spread with your rommie torp and you will have a high yield torpedo spread so to speak.
I honestly can see anyway to really fix it with out just annoying people. If it mattered more then it did... sitting there for 10min waiting for 4000 crew to regen would be more then a bit annoying.
Complete redo, think how every factor of the system could be altered.
4000 crew ship would likely have more medical crew on board too to service them. I could see an argument for a 4000 crew going from 0 to 4000 in (or near) the same time as an escort with 200 takes to fill.
However in PvP I can see this dominating: TT/FAW2/APO1 EptS1/A2B/RSP2/DEM3
EptW1/A2B
ET ST1/HE2
If you listen carefully you can hear Mimey cheering as he runs down the street naked.
*chuckles* You know me too well, Bpharma.
That is almost the build I put on my Fleet Excelsior when I was mucking around in the game earlier. Take out FAW, APO, and ST. Replace it with CSV, APB 2, and TSS 1. :P
Oh yes, and this on my PO-Recluse:
Cmdr Uni (as an eng): ET 1, RSP 1, ES 2, A2SIF 3
Lt. Cmdr Eng: EPTS 1, ES 1 (in case of disables), EPTA 3
Lt. Cmdr Sci: TSS 1, PO 1, HE 3
Ensign Sci: ST 1
Ensign Tac: TT 1
Mostly to toy around with it just to see how well it worked.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
There's been a lot of hubbub about the Tribble changes to the cooldown lockout between Tactical Team, Science Team, and Engineering Team, and I wanted to come give you a rundown of what the change accomplishes and why we chose to do it.
There were multiple reasons to remove this shared cooldown:
Certain team powers were rarely getting use due to perceived or real mandatory nature of other team powers - Engineering Team suffered the most here, while Science Team was in-use but played a significant "second fiddle" to Tactical Team
Dispel-type abilities are timing-sensitive in nature, but holding off using non-dispel powers so that a dispel would be available when a debuff is applied is unsatisfying gameplay if the debuff never comes or gets put on someone else
Similarly, needing to use Tactical Team to survive meant Science or Engineering debuffs applied by Voth or Borg were extra frustrating due to feeling like the player made the best choice they could (surviving) but still being punished (not being able to use the dispel they have equipped and hadnt used)
The shared lockout itself was based on an old paradigm of design within the game that has since been moved away from. It was entirely thematic in its nature the Teams were already busy and not mechanical the effects are too powerful together justification.
The combination of parts 1 and 4 meant that Engineering powers (Emergency Power to Shields) were the most frequent Shield heals, and Science powers (Hazard Emitters) were the most frequent Hull heals. This is contrary to the desired niches of the abilities.
Engineering Ensign and Science stations were far less desirable than intended due to Science Team and Engineering Team being on CD when Tactical Team was used. This was discussed back when the DDeridex was created and again now when we relaunched the Galaxy.
Giving players the choice of burst effectiveness but longer gaps in effectiveness (All 3 team powers on 30 second CDs rather than rotating a Team every 15 seconds) is interesting gameplay - deciding whether to mete out my heals over time or blow them all at once determines how vulnerable I am/how many cards I still have in my hand over the next 15 seconds.
"This is disruptive to current meta-game is this intentional? Is this good?"
Its definitely intentional. We want players to be able to use Engineering Team and Science Team, but we recognize the importance of Tactical Team in the currently widespread gameplay pattern adopted by many players. We want to make Tactical Team less mandatory over time (and in fact think the power itself is quite overloaded in terms of what it does), but bringing Tac Teams effectiveness down substantially would be more disruptive than allowing players to use Sci and Eng Team in conjunction with Tac Team. Were also hopeful that players will now be more willing to use Science and Engineering Teams on allied players once this change is made, since they wont have to make as much of a choice between selfishness and selflessness as they did before.
The metagame in general is dominated by choices that are too good compared to the other choices available. This leaves players dissatisfied with false choice. For instance, Beam Fire at Will is ostensibly an AoE power, but deals more damage to a single-target than normal Beam Fire does. Conversely, Beam Overload is a single-target damage power, but actually lowers the users medium-term DPS despite providing burst due to its more-than-substantial power drain, and due to competing with Fire at Will for a power slot. Long term, the more real (nontrivial) choices we can present players with, the happier they will be with the game. This is exemplified in our Trait revamp and our upcoming Kit Revamp, and our ongoing efforts to make all of our ship classes competitive with each other but in different ways.
ET and ST aren't being used b/c they aren't that needed anymore for a variety of reasons.
ET:
1. Doff cooldown reductions - ET counters subsystem disables, but they aren't the only means. EPtX does the same and has other benefits and it's easy to get 2 different versions to the 15 second cooldown. Battery cooldown doff has similar effect.
2. Passive resists - this greatly reduces the time of subsystem disables, even more so human boff traits.
3. VM Doffs and ET clearing mechanic, requires waiting before applying ET and even then Doff triggers negate it. So, it's an iffy counter at best and repair can be wasted if just using for debuff value.
4. Aux2sif is better when resists taken into account in terms of repairs.
5. Competes w/EPtx, Aux2Batt, Aux2Sif, Aux2damp, RSP. This is why it's not used, not the shared cooldown w/TT.
ST:
1. There are a lot of ways to repair shields passive and active now, as well as shield resist gains. It just isn't needed for repairs anymore.
2. Passive resists reduce scramble et al times. Scrambles generally aren't that strong in terms of actually effecting game play and can mostly be ignored. Can be useful vs AMS though.
3. Competes w/PH, HE, TSS, and a variety of debuffs at higher levels. This is & #1 why it's not used. Though, it still should be in PvP for the Sub-Nuke cleanse.
So, it has more uses than ET and there's less overlap.
Cleanse Doff w/EPtX and cooldown reduction doffs makes both of their counter debuffs redundant to a laughable point.
TT is still needed. If you were to make manual shield distribution faster it would still be used. Arguably TT is just as valuable as a anti hull debuff as it is for the shield distribution anymore.
Fyi, hazards is used not just for the repair, but also the resists and it's anti-debuff traits. Toss in cooldown reduction and a player no longer needs 2. It doesn't directly compete w/ET, but it and Aux2sif make ET a distant 3rd option in terms of hull repairs.
It just doesn't seem like there's really an understanding on the Devs' part as to why what is getting used and what isn't.
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Comments
Yes you can do that... healing just got more spiky. Seeing as everyone has been lamenting the rise of the super vaper the last few months is being able to super spike heals in response so bad ?
I also look at it this way.... IF I manage to get a healer to drop all that stuff on one guy. The healer isn't really holding much for a second target... or even himself.
Imagine you do throw all that stuff out on someone that just had a vaper decloak on them. You save them... good job. Now what happens when the Sci Vaper decloaks on you and nukes you ? Better hope that guy you just saved is so giving.
This is a pretty major change to the meta I agree there... I am just not seeing the doom and gloom of it.
Yes super setup heal ships just got an option to spike heal along with the spike dmg we are seeing... but its not free man. Putting all your heals on cool down is great if you really have to save someone. It does put you in a bit of a bind yourself for 14s at least though. This won't make Healers much more unkillable as some have made out. Engi toons in a super healer ship where already really really hard to kill... the way this change will work I don't think they get any more tanky at all really... I think it gets easier to fake out all there cool downs at once and in fact make them far less tanky.
You sort of made my point though. You are choosing to drop a resistance skill to slot that engi team. I don't think its worth it for a healer at all. Having said that it is a viable CHOICE. I think in some fights ET would be better to have... and in others it 100% would not be. To me this is another CHOICE for a healer... not a defacto this is better. IT a flavor option... you will be a super tanker healer either way... do you want to focus on catching massive spikes... or focus on providing the best resistance roll to resist FAW and other Presure dmg.
It is easy to say yes I will drop the hull resist skill and focus on the shield resist skills... but if that became the norm... people would just adapt the dmg to be more direct to hull. (frankly that is where we are look at all the DEM around the last 4 or 5 months... shield resistance got nuts with fleet shields people started going bleed through builds)
The borg, they got two procs: one is cleared by HE another is cleared by TT. And since rotating TT is pretty much standard I was actually surprised to find out there's a second one. And even I get a lot more heals in pug ques than I did few years ago, still can't rely on them being there.
Besides, I did say "pve build" didn't I? And PVE usually means following three till you finish the rep
* dyson space sphere for daily joint
* STFs
* cee for nukara marks
So I was considering letting my romulan sci repping in palisad in either format (tac3/sci4/sci3/eng2 or tac4/sci3/sci3/eng2) with beams and torps. Got impressive 0.9k dps in ISE and put him into torp tvaro inspired by certain Willard the Rat.
IMHO yes...because I'm not a fan of the yo-yo mechanics. I'm a balance by balancing guy, not a balance by buffing everything out the wahzoo so that the yo-yo extremes become even more extreme. Sometimes instead of adding more, you need to take away some.
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it's dropping AtS1 when AtS3 is already there...never saw the point of both. Or it's dropping the shield heal ExS1 for the hull heal/cleanse ET1. Still having the other ExS in place. Perhaps Renim switched AtS1/ExS2/ExS3 and ExS1/ExS2/AtS3 depending on what was going on so that it was never both AtS1 and AtS3.
But again, there's so much diminishing returns on hull resists. There's a big difference between a group that's got 2-3x Sci dropping out those SNBs and where you may not even have a Sci.
Well, you know, you could always just pick up another TRIBBLE driver...
That makes me think about the AtB JHEC guy I deleted...cause I'd run 3x Eng on him
EPtS1, AtB1, DEM2
EPtW1, AtB1
ET1, RSP1
But it does have that feeling, in stopping to think about, as something to stave off complaints about the 3x Eng Ensign boats out there. You can run the ET and not mess with your TT or ST...
GIVE ALL TEAMS AUTO DISTRIBUTE
Seriously...leave all abilities as they are and just let every team auto-distribute - sure, skilled players/macro users could get 100% auto distribute uptime by staggering; but for most it would mean you could run a team of your choice and not have a valuable tac slot filled with an ability that is only used for its auto-distribute
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According to the explanations in the S1.2 cooldown rebalancing, these abilities were intended to be:
EPtS being the main shield heal and HE being the main hull heal seems to be entirely in-line with these design principles. In fact at least my data for 2012 shows that AtSIF and HE as well as EPtS and TSS were used for comparable levels of healing. It is true that the team abilities had a considerably smaller part in the total healing, but being designed as "reserve heals", this seems to be working as (originally) intended.
The thing is, though, is HE actually a Sci ability? Pop open the skill tab, take notice of the subcategories there for space, eh?
Tactical Systems
Engineering Systems
Science and Operation Systems
HE's not a Science ability...it's an Operation ability. It's one of the reasons that it has come up so often that it and potentially other Science abilities appear as if they were "stolen" from Engineering.
If one takes a look at a breakdown of Starfleet divisions (based on uniform), there are the following:
Command (could be conn/helm, or anybody from another division in a command position)
Operations (engineers, tactical, security)
Science (science and medical)
We don't have that in STO, and not only do we not have that - but some Operations stuff is tossed in with Science (taken from Tac/Eng).
So in seeing that certain things are off, perhaps it is not really a case that they are off - but the desired manner in which they should have been is off. Why wold you want Science to be the primary shield heal? You wouldn't. You would want Operations to be the primary shield heal. Well, Operations in STO is split between Eng and Sci...so why would things not fit that? Likewise, hull heals would be Operations...and again in STO that is split between Eng and Sci.
We can take a further look at the two abilities mentioned though...and...why they might have the predominance that they do, eh?
Starting with EPtS, I don't want to say it's obvious - but it would appear pretty simple, no? There are only 5 Ensign Engineering abilities available. The EPtX abilities can be maintained with full uptime either through AtB or using DCE DOFFs. Given the limited need for EPtE and EPtA in many builds, the likely pairing of EPtX abilities would be EPtW/EPtS or even folks running 2x EPtS to maintain that uptime. Add in Eng with EPS Manifold Efficiency, etc, etc, etc - it shouldn't be difficult to see why EPtS would show in any metrics as the primary shield heal being used. Heck, it's not just a heal either - it's also boosting shield damage reduction as well as repairing disabled shields. ExS can only be used on other targets, RSP has a longer CD, TSS is a HoT (and also an ability unlikely to be available to many ships because of limited Sci BOFF seating)...etc, etc, etc...EPtS as the primary heal should come as no surprise.
Looking at HE, again - I don't want to say it's obvious; but it pretty much is, no? It's not just a HoT, it's also a cleanse and provides additional damage resistance. While AtS provides additional resistance and a direct heal instead of a HoT - it doesn't provide the cleanse that HE does (Borg?). ET provides a spike heal without additional resistance - but the cleanse is bugged in it doesn't remove DOFF'd VM (heck, sometimes it doesn't even remove the initial VM) and it doesn't repair all disabled subsystems. HE1 cleanses as well as HE3, and that combination of the cleanse (DoTs, Tyken's, etc) with the HoT and the resistance...there should be no surprise that it's showing as the primary hull heal.
Removing the shared CDs is not going to make ET replace HE nor ST replace EPtS. All it is going to do is create additional healing/cleansing possibilities that can adversely affect certain aspects of the game.
If you wanted to make something else the primary shield or hull heal, then you'd need to take a look at how good the abilities are that are out of line with what you desire. Given all the work that was put into buffing the EPtX abilities, it's unlikely that they would see any form of balanced tweaking done for EPtS. Which unfortunately (imho) would require buffing of the other shield heal abilities to the point that they were even more OP than EPtS is...the same would go for HE. It would be a case of saying, "X may be OP, but take a look at what we've done to Y!" Would that really be good for the game?
Or would it be easier to accept that Eng is Operations, so it makes sense that you'd find shield healing going on there and that Sci is really Sci/Operations - so it would make sense that you'd find hull healing going on there?
I wouldn't include Sci Ensign abilities anywhere near Eng Ensign abilities. Not by a long shot...
There are 5 Eng Ensign abilities. Heck, let's take an overall look at them as a whole, eh?
Tac
Ensign: 9 (6 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Lt: 15 (6 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
LCdr: 16 (6 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 3 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Cmdr: 6 (2 share a CD, 3 share a CD)
Eng
Ensign: 5 (4 share a CD)
Lt: 12 (4 share a CD, 3 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
LCdr: 14 (4 share a CD, 3 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Cmdr: 7 (2 share a CD)
Sci
Ensign: 8 (0 share a CD)
Lt: 15 (2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
LCdr: 18 (2 share a CD, 2 share a CD, 2 share a CD)
Cmdr: 10 (2 share a CD)
("share a CD" references a triggered CD from using one ability, along the lines of what previously existed for the Team abilities)
So I can definitely see folks complaining about Eng Ensign abilities and I can see the complaint about Tac Ensign abilities...Sci Ensign though? Yeah, no...not outside of folks wanting Lt/En so they can run DCE'd EPtX abilities...but that's not a complaint about Sci Ensign abilities as much as it is a complaint about not being able to run DCE'd EPtX abilities while still having the Lt Eng BOFF available for either RSP or AtS.
While removing the shared CDs on the Team abilities applies a generic storebrand bandaid to the Eng issue, there's no Sci issue there and it does nothing for the Tac issue.
Hrmm, I'm having trouble following the logic behind that thought process...and actually, I've got a general problem with the Team thing that I'll get to in a bit.
Okay, so the thought process is:
Joe Random feels the need for TT - thus, he's not going to equip ET or ST - and as such, he's not going to use either ability to help out a fellow player. So let's let Joe Random use ET or ST even when he's using TT.
How do you make the leap from having those abilities available to Joe Random using them on somebody else? Even the TT can be used on somebody else. Heck, it's a trip that folks will thank other folks for heals when all they tossed was a TT.
So is there really the belief that folks will toss out the ET/ST (even equip them over other heals) to folks and not just use them for themselves? The availability of them won't magically make people less selfish. What kind of metrics do you have on folks using AtS/TSS on others vs. themselves?
And then there's the issue I personally have with using Teams on other folks to begin with...uh...just how are we doing that? Transporting them over? They transport back? Uh...yeah...just how are we even able to use Teams on other folks in the first place?
Hrmm, this one - I should have probably split into multiple sections...meh. Oh well...
Want to address that issue with FAW? Then address it. FAW currently does multiple things. It increases the number of shots - even with a single target. It increases the damage of each shot. It can attack multiple targets. If it's meant to be an AoE ability, then make it an AoE ability. Attack multiple targets, reduced number of shots or same number of shots with reduced damage. But again, that's not what it is. It's a mix of CRF and CSV. It's BRF as much as it is BSV. 5 shots with increased damage in 4 seconds instead of 4 shots with normal damage in 4 seconds...yeah, it's BRF. That it can do that to two targets (not necessarily the same two targets) adds in the BSV element. Like...um...hello? It's a massively OP ability.
Okay, I'm going to split out that last part again...it's easier that way.
This is swell and all, but when the content doesn't require that in the least...you'll never be able to do that. Certain ships and certain ship classes will always outperform others because that's the nature of the content.
most tac ships have 1 if not 2 TT the ens tac slot really only has few useful powers. If you are Cannon torp escort HYT1 and TS1 are your only option. If you are cannon DBB escort BOL is your only option above TT, Beam target skills are laughable. Cruisers would probably use RSP as the oh TRIBBLE similar to TT. Sci ships will probably slot a TT in their tac ens slot since a lot of their stuff is sci driven not tac boff driven. The hybrids are mixed bag.
Emergency Power to Shields is so powerful because it effectively double or triples the strength of your shields all day long. Thanks to the resistance boost, heal, and the power boost which acts as a second resistance boost and a heal over time or regeneration boost.
Should one power be that powerful on it's own? Have that many powerful effects? Granted it is required because of how strong offensive buffs are but is that not also a problem?
Then we have the Tactical Team cleanse effect. When fighting borg if you get an assimilate ship debuff you are pretty much out of the fight if you cannot clear it. Your damage output becomes dismal and survival is unlikely. Should any single debuff be that strong?
In STO it's not like you get hit with a debuff and survive. You either clear it or die. And if your own buffs are active your ship becomes an invincible hero ship spewing instant death to your enemies.
They have attempted to mitigate this with all the passive boosts thrown at us over the years. The problem is having Fleet Shields resistance stacks does not make EPtS any less desirable. Quite the contrary it makes EPtS grant even more tankiness to your ship.
An across the board nerf to all boff abilities is in order IMHO. Cut the resistance provided by EPtS to a third. Cut the dmg boosts of FaW and CRF in half at the same time. Just as an example.
Make it harder to clear debuffs but at the same time make those debuffs less ... destructive at the same time.
This will help reduce the two major problems of STO gameplay. The swinginess of PvP combat and reduce the ever growing gap between the average player and the good player.
Speaking of that gap cause I'm rambling anyway I've been doing an experiment lately. In ISE on my ships that can solo one side I've been going right instead of left and doing so. Over half the time I do that the other four players loose the optional as I'm just a touch too slow to get over to the left and help out.
Think about that. I'm not top tier, my builds are good but hardly fully optimized with P2W doffs/consoles. I'm not a leet member of a DPS4million channel nor a member of an elite PvP premade. And over half the time I outperform 4 other players combined. It's a sad.
The Rom and Klingon ships could fire off a bunch in a shorter period of time, since they have more crew levels, in general; So Fed ships should probably have a (much) higher crew regen rate both alive and able; or just scrap the difference and have these crew consumable powers and torpedoes just subtract straight crew. Though, the crew regen rate on even KDF and Rom vessels should still be such that they can see crew come back once or more over the course of one match/session/queue.
I would like to see it tied to non-combat QoL features, maybe up to an in place self-rez. As part of that, I'd think losing crew should be harder and replenishing should require a visit to a hub.
I could go into more depth later.
the best way to decouple TT and the shield distribute is to create another team skill for tac, hell another for eng and sci too. all starting at ENS like normal, no systems cooldowns on anything.
security team- clears tactical debuffs, can bring only the weapons subsystem back on line, clears boarders
tactical team- just the distribute, 7, 10, 13 seconds long depending on rank
eng team- eng debuff clear, fixes shields and engine subsystems, hull heal
operations team- a crew based 15 second long buff to pretty much every offensive skill on the skill tree, energy, kinetic, crit, acc, particle, grav, EPS, core potentual, flow cap, etc. have this last 15 seconds, so 2 copies can keep it on all the time so it becomes another passive more or less. maybe a small bonus if you have an android boff slotted? lol, just a thought.
science team- clear sci debuffs, can fix just the off-lined aux system, and shield heal
medical team- an over time crew heal that last 15 seconds, so 2 copies can keep it on all the time so it becomes another passive more or less. flat buffs to defensive sci skills
operations team's passive buffs to skill tree skills are based on crew, specifically number of crew and not % alive. proboly should have some diminishing returns after 1000 crew though. so, your gonna want medical team around to keep your crew alive to keep ops teams benefit high.
i see a ton of team synergy that can grow from this, especially from sci based healers sporting everyone's crew. and for non battlecloakers, these passives running all the time will boast ships that cant run from a fight to be tougher, but they wont serve as much purpose on war birds who's best option will always be to alpha and cloak asap. the staggeringly bad galaxy R would be helped quite a bit here too, it could run ET1/3 and OT1/3 and actually be able to use all those eng skills it has.
oh, but AtB will make an exploitative mockery of OT and MT. well, at the same time these get released, release a doff that at purple tier extends the passive duration of OT and MT by 15 seconds, and boost its effect by 5%. so with 1 doff and 1 copy you get full uptime without AtB, so AtB doesn't need to be nerfed, and tears dont need to be shed about anything.
other skill changes
EWP- should offline engines for as long as they are in the cloud. it would act like an energy drain, and the plasma cloud DOT should act like a minor energy drain even if your out of it so it restores engine power back to normal slower. EWP is supposed to be clogging your engines intakes with hot air and overheating them. though thats pretty lol if you knew how impulse engines work, its a good game mechanic
boarding party- so it works like it did in SFC. dont give me any BS about how you cant use something from that game, how boarding parties worked there is not copyrighted. basically, boarders are beamed over when a shield facing facing you is breached. thus, BP should be one of those skills that is passively on, waiting for its opportunity to be used on your target. make it another one of those skills you cycle every 15 seconds. this would make security team i talked about a must have vs someone with this. this can help cruisers be more offensive without dealing more weapons damage then escorts
the shuttle based boarding parties, make them the type 8 shuttle pets. set to intercept, they will act like normal type 8s, but on attack they will fly and try to land troops.
energy siphon- make this another one of those skills you can keep on all the time if you cycle 2 copies. another way to get some benefits from AtB builds without having to run AtB.
I mean, do you know what are the consequences of this ?
Cruisers are already though: a single escort won't be able to kill a well built cruiser.
Imagine how though they will be when they can use ET and ST too.
An ENTIRE fleet won't be able to kill a well built cruiser after this.
Not to talk about Science Vessels: they'll become unkillable.
1.43 (fleet shield mod) + 125 Aux + ST + TSS + HE + ET + TT + EPTS + A2SIF ... and maybe an ENG captain O_O
HOW THE F**K AM I SUPPOSED TO KILL SUCH A MONSTER ???
TELL ME !!
Sorry guys, I can't be happy of this new
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
How The F**k Am I Supposed To be Killed by such A Monster ???
Tell Me !!
On topic though, I don't really care. On the whole I think it's a good idea and I'm sorry Mancom but quoting stuff about game design from S1.2 is at best outdated. I mean this is certainly not the same game it was at launch, no way no how.
DDIS the last thing we need is more abilities, I don't have the data but I would say at least 20% of the total abilities we do have aren't used much at all.
On the whole I think it's the best decision to be made. I mean think about the problem and possible solutions and for once in your lives think outside your niche and about how this affects players from all ends of the spectrum.
Sure I would prefer shield distribution decoupled from tactical team and tactical team buffed but that opens the problem of what do you do with tactical team? Even I am grasping at straws thinking of how to buff it without either making it much better than the others or pretty useless. So yeah, work to implement vs returns it's certainly one of the best options.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I don't want to! So there!
If they're having difficulty doing "Elite" content, then maybe they shouldn't be doing "Elite" content. If they're having difficulty doing anything, maybe they need to make some friends and work through it together. There are folks doing endgame content in T1 ships (I can't, but I'm just an average gamer)...so if there are folks that are geared out the wahzoo and are still having problems, maybe - just maybe - they need to accept that they're the problem and not that the game is too hard. How far can Cryptic nerf the content and how far can they buff the players before they get a video conference call from CBS, Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew, and Bakula...where they all do a synchronized /facepalm? Can see Wheaton sneaking into the call and dropping out the L on the forehead before disconnecting...
...I mean, c'mon.
I have yet to hear anyone claim ET will replace ST; or EPtS, no less. All removing the shared CD will do, is make ET a bit more un-obstructed on ships like a Fleet Excelsior (in Ensign slot), where you can now actually use that 3rd Ensign position, for a change.
And I can foresee situations (on my own loadouts) where I might replace that single TSS1 with ST1 (against Voth).
lol
I wasn't thinking that, if someone sucks, content shouldn't become easier, they should learn.
However we've all faced the conundrum of having either 3rd ens sci/eng station but don't want it to mess with TT rotation (which is only used for the shield distro, which could be automized
It means people are not going to be massively penalised for having what is a very frequently generated boff ability. Like I say don't think of people doing an STF finding it hard.
Think of the person sat there RPing and going hmmm my shields are down *dramatic pose "Dispatch the science team to bring them back up!" *clicks ability* hmmm I need to fix my stuctural integrity....*dramatic pose* "Engineering team, we need you to hold her together!"
Then also think of the persons spaced out on drugs (we'll assume legally obtained with a prescription) who really don't even have a clue where they are. Now they're not super penalised for picking 2 heals in totally different boff ability classes.
But lets cut the c***, we all know what this is about, shield distribution primarily. This is about how tactical team is vastly more useful to 90% of the playerbase than the other two combined. The only option better than this would either be more damage creep or making tactical team completely useless again.
If you really think about this, to those that understand how the game works it's not a big deal, it means you might slot ET/ST on certain ships in certain circumstances. Most of my builds will not change, AtSIF is still the better option than ET on most of my builds. ST may get a look in on my A2B build. TT will be spammed as much as usual. All it does it bring 2 dismissed abilities into consideration before being dismissed which I believe is what they wanted.
However in PvP I can see this dominating:
TT/FAW2/APO1
EptS1/A2B/RSP2/DEM3
EptW1/A2B
ET
ST1/HE2
If you listen carefully you can hear Mimey cheering as he runs down the street naked.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
TT1, APB1
FAW1
EPtS1, AtB1, ET3, DEM3
EPtW1, AtB1
TSS1, HE2, ST3
its these kind of things that can produce pretty nice dps and these big heals that win. even the sub tac cruisers that run COM and LTC eng too.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Engineering slots is because there's only 5 Ensign Engineering abilities - where 4 of them share a CD and then there's ET. Meaning that I'm usually going to have EPtX1/EPtY1/ET1 or EPtX1/EPtX1/ET1...with no higher EPtX/Y ability nor any higher ET ability. The "penalty" comes from there only being 5 abilities to select. Allowing me to use ET at the same time as TT or ST does not change that. That's not something I saw as a "penalty" - it was just a choice. It's a softer choice than many of the choices in the game...mix Projectiles and Energy - there's a "penalty" because of the Tac consoles. Mixing Cannons and Beams...where perhaps I don't have the room for all the abilities for them...that's a softer choice, along the lines of TT/ET/ST.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Science slots is on a boat without a LCdr Eng station...because I basically like to have 3 Eng abilities (either EPtX1/EPtY1/AtS1 or EPtX1/EPtX1/AtS1)...so if I've got 3 Ensign Sci slots without the LCdr Eng, that means I'm either giving up an EPtX ability or the AtS ability. The same would apply to having 3 Ensign Tac slots...because I like having those three Eng abilities. It's what I'm comfortable with. There's no shortage of Ensign Sci abilities, and on a ship with the following BOFF layout...
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
X, X, X, X
X, X
X
...I'm more than fine being able to select from all those Sci abilities. For me, there's no direct punishment from having 3 Ensign Sci. Hell, for almost a year I flew a Sci Hegh'ta with 4x Sci BOFFs.
The only reason I've felt "penalized" by having 3 Ensign Tactical slots (outside of what I mentioned about the 3x Eng abilities) comes down to the need to mix certain weapons or having wasted Tac abilities - which comes down to the available Tac abilities, where you've got the 4 BtSX abilities, FAW, BO that all trigger a shared CD, TT, and TS/HY which also trigger a shared CD now that you can't instastack them.
So basically, my feeling "penalized" with Tac Ensigns and Eng Ensigns comes from the available choices...not that TT/ET shared a CD with each other and ST. I mean, c'mon - that's like I can't use FBP and TSS...I can't use RSP and ExS. Not being able to use TT/ET/ST at the same time wasn't a penalty...it was just a choice. Heck, I can't drop out EPtS, EPtA, EPtE, EPtW at the same time - sure, I can have two up at the same time eventually, but I can't drop them out at the same time. Is that a "penalty"...or is it just a choice - just a mechanic?
At what point are we going to end up with Attack Pattern Geko where we can play STO with an Atari 2600 joystick where we just maneuver the ship and press the big red button to do everything? Well, because to do anything else would be "penalizing" the player?
I agree with you as far as the distinct lack of compelling choices at the engineering and tactical ensign level. I always felt attack pattern delta could have been lowered a tier, a new ability added, or even lowering the mine abilities a tier, or heck even unhooking subsystem targeting from other beam abilities and allowing it to work on any energy weapon without sharing a cooldown with other weapon powers.
Additionally I really wish either hazard emitters or polarize hull were engineering. Or even drop the auxiliary to structure or auxiliary to dampeners down a tier would work. Or add a new group of offensive engineering abilities like a torpedo modification ability would be amazing.
But yeah.
As for Attack Pattern Geko as long as Cryptic continues to fail and capitalize on valuable tutorial player teaching options, like when the player is given an endgame ship with an absolutely terrible weapon selection it won't help. Attack Pattern Geko with 3 beam arrays, a dual beam bank, an aft torpedo, and a dual cannon will still be terrible.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Terrible example. They did not allow you to have more total boff abilities whereas you are asking effectively for more weapon slots. Secondly they did infact remove the former long cooldown in between torpedo launches. Lastly try using Torpedo Spread with your rommie torp and you will have a high yield torpedo spread so to speak.
4000 crew ship would likely have more medical crew on board too to service them. I could see an argument for a 4000 crew going from 0 to 4000 in (or near) the same time as an escort with 200 takes to fill.
*chuckles* You know me too well, Bpharma.
That is almost the build I put on my Fleet Excelsior when I was mucking around in the game earlier. Take out FAW, APO, and ST. Replace it with CSV, APB 2, and TSS 1. :P
Oh yes, and this on my PO-Recluse:
Cmdr Uni (as an eng): ET 1, RSP 1, ES 2, A2SIF 3
Lt. Cmdr Eng: EPTS 1, ES 1 (in case of disables), EPTA 3
Lt. Cmdr Sci: TSS 1, PO 1, HE 3
Ensign Sci: ST 1
Ensign Tac: TT 1
Mostly to toy around with it just to see how well it worked.
ET and ST aren't being used b/c they aren't that needed anymore for a variety of reasons.
ET:
1. Doff cooldown reductions - ET counters subsystem disables, but they aren't the only means. EPtX does the same and has other benefits and it's easy to get 2 different versions to the 15 second cooldown. Battery cooldown doff has similar effect.
2. Passive resists - this greatly reduces the time of subsystem disables, even more so human boff traits.
3. VM Doffs and ET clearing mechanic, requires waiting before applying ET and even then Doff triggers negate it. So, it's an iffy counter at best and repair can be wasted if just using for debuff value.
4. Aux2sif is better when resists taken into account in terms of repairs.
5. Competes w/EPtx, Aux2Batt, Aux2Sif, Aux2damp, RSP. This is why it's not used, not the shared cooldown w/TT.
ST:
1. There are a lot of ways to repair shields passive and active now, as well as shield resist gains. It just isn't needed for repairs anymore.
2. Passive resists reduce scramble et al times. Scrambles generally aren't that strong in terms of actually effecting game play and can mostly be ignored. Can be useful vs AMS though.
3. Competes w/PH, HE, TSS, and a variety of debuffs at higher levels. This is & #1 why it's not used. Though, it still should be in PvP for the Sub-Nuke cleanse.
So, it has more uses than ET and there's less overlap.
Cleanse Doff w/EPtX and cooldown reduction doffs makes both of their counter debuffs redundant to a laughable point.
TT is still needed. If you were to make manual shield distribution faster it would still be used. Arguably TT is just as valuable as a anti hull debuff as it is for the shield distribution anymore.
Fyi, hazards is used not just for the repair, but also the resists and it's anti-debuff traits. Toss in cooldown reduction and a player no longer needs 2. It doesn't directly compete w/ET, but it and Aux2sif make ET a distant 3rd option in terms of hull repairs.
It just doesn't seem like there's really an understanding on the Devs' part as to why what is getting used and what isn't.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter