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PVP Weekly Update 05/11/2012
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hi folks welcome to a new feature - The PVP Weekly Update.
Every Friday before I leave the office for the day Im going to jump into the PVP forums and give you an update. It may be a small update or it might be a big update. It may be a very simple there is nothing notable to report this week, how is everyone doing? sort of thing. Or, it could be here is a list of big things that are on their way to you on Tribble. Go take a look and tell me what you think sort of post.
Whatever it is, its going to happen every week.
Todays Topic State of PVP in STO.
Put simply, the current state of PVP in STO = FAIL
I dont think I can be any clearer on this point. You the players dont like it, we the developers dont like it and all the data we pull from the servers backs up the statement as well. Now, we could start discussing why PVP is the way it is. There are lots of reasons, some you as players know and some you dont. Discussing that particular topic wouldnt move us forward, now is not the time to figure out who is to blame for what and why.
It is however time to move forward. The first question we (the developers) had to ask ourselves is can PVP be saved?
I dont use the word Saved lightly. I dont mean fixed, updated, or fun. I literally mean saved.
Now, what Im about to tell you is going to scare a few people, its going to make some of you angry. Its not meant to do either of those things, and please dont read into anything I type. Im not trying to be sarcastic, blame you the players for anything, or infer that the opinions of the players in STO that care about PVP dont matter . I just want to make sure you understand where we are at in this process.
Right now because PVP is in such bad shape that we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people that log in to the game and play in any significant way.
See I told you.. scary. I know, some of you are reading this and getting angry. I understand but this is simply the bare naked truth.
Cryptic is a business and everything that makes up STO requires resources to develop, implement, and maintain. I think its pretty obvious that since the launch of STO that PVP has not had a fair share of those resources allocated to it. This fact is the primary reason PVP is in the state that its currently in.
Something has to be done, PVP cannot stay the way that it is now. We either have to try to save it, or take it out of the game completely. We have to allocate resources in order to save it and thats where I come into the picture.
Right this moment, Im the only resource PVP gets. My job is to figure out if I can find a way to improve the entire system in a way that does not impact development of the rest of the game in any significant way. Its going to be a challenge to put it mildly, but Im going to try. Im going to do my best to make PVP a viable STO gameplay feature that appeals to a much larger audience than it does now.
Its simply going to have to get better and appeal to a much larger group of players on a regular basis if its going to survive. This also means that many of you are not going to like the changes I am forced to make in order to meet these goals, but before you get too upset at something I change you might want to consider the alternative, which would be no PVP at all.
There are big changes coming to PVP, some I think you are going to like, others no so much because no one likes change. Some are not going to make a whole lot of sense at the time because you wont be seeing the whole long term plan I have in store for PVP over the course of the next year or so.
As far as these forums go, keep in mind that much of what is bothering you right now at this particular time in the current implementation of the PVP system isnt something Im really going to get very involved with. Its all going to have to change, and change in a very big way. Im not going to spend much time trying to solve an current issue you might have right at this very moment when there is a very high probability that a month or two down the road a large scale change to the PVP system in general is going to solve the issue.
Here is an example..
I see lots of threads about KDF players having access to gear that FED players do not. This isnt going to be a problem in the new system since their will not be any FED vs KDF PVP. All PVP in the new system will be cross faction queues.
More information in next weeks edition..
Have a good weekend.
Goz
Every Friday before I leave the office for the day Im going to jump into the PVP forums and give you an update. It may be a small update or it might be a big update. It may be a very simple there is nothing notable to report this week, how is everyone doing? sort of thing. Or, it could be here is a list of big things that are on their way to you on Tribble. Go take a look and tell me what you think sort of post.
Whatever it is, its going to happen every week.
Todays Topic State of PVP in STO.
Put simply, the current state of PVP in STO = FAIL
I dont think I can be any clearer on this point. You the players dont like it, we the developers dont like it and all the data we pull from the servers backs up the statement as well. Now, we could start discussing why PVP is the way it is. There are lots of reasons, some you as players know and some you dont. Discussing that particular topic wouldnt move us forward, now is not the time to figure out who is to blame for what and why.
It is however time to move forward. The first question we (the developers) had to ask ourselves is can PVP be saved?
I dont use the word Saved lightly. I dont mean fixed, updated, or fun. I literally mean saved.
Now, what Im about to tell you is going to scare a few people, its going to make some of you angry. Its not meant to do either of those things, and please dont read into anything I type. Im not trying to be sarcastic, blame you the players for anything, or infer that the opinions of the players in STO that care about PVP dont matter . I just want to make sure you understand where we are at in this process.
Right now because PVP is in such bad shape that we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people that log in to the game and play in any significant way.
See I told you.. scary. I know, some of you are reading this and getting angry. I understand but this is simply the bare naked truth.
Cryptic is a business and everything that makes up STO requires resources to develop, implement, and maintain. I think its pretty obvious that since the launch of STO that PVP has not had a fair share of those resources allocated to it. This fact is the primary reason PVP is in the state that its currently in.
Something has to be done, PVP cannot stay the way that it is now. We either have to try to save it, or take it out of the game completely. We have to allocate resources in order to save it and thats where I come into the picture.
Right this moment, Im the only resource PVP gets. My job is to figure out if I can find a way to improve the entire system in a way that does not impact development of the rest of the game in any significant way. Its going to be a challenge to put it mildly, but Im going to try. Im going to do my best to make PVP a viable STO gameplay feature that appeals to a much larger audience than it does now.
Its simply going to have to get better and appeal to a much larger group of players on a regular basis if its going to survive. This also means that many of you are not going to like the changes I am forced to make in order to meet these goals, but before you get too upset at something I change you might want to consider the alternative, which would be no PVP at all.
There are big changes coming to PVP, some I think you are going to like, others no so much because no one likes change. Some are not going to make a whole lot of sense at the time because you wont be seeing the whole long term plan I have in store for PVP over the course of the next year or so.
As far as these forums go, keep in mind that much of what is bothering you right now at this particular time in the current implementation of the PVP system isnt something Im really going to get very involved with. Its all going to have to change, and change in a very big way. Im not going to spend much time trying to solve an current issue you might have right at this very moment when there is a very high probability that a month or two down the road a large scale change to the PVP system in general is going to solve the issue.
Here is an example..
I see lots of threads about KDF players having access to gear that FED players do not. This isnt going to be a problem in the new system since their will not be any FED vs KDF PVP. All PVP in the new system will be cross faction queues.
More information in next weeks edition..
Have a good weekend.
Goz
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
oh my. 10char
"I see lots of threads about KDF players having access to gear that FED players do not. This isnt going to be a problem in the new system since their will not be any FED vs KDF PVP. All PVP in the new system will be cross faction queues."
What gear? you mean the consoles? The sets? What? Can anyone else tell me what he is talking about?
Cross Faction q's? you mean FvF and KvK? Or do you mean it will all be RANDOM?
F+KvK+F?
Changes that appeal to the masses eh or take it out? Thats our choices?
The masses though the maco shields were fine. Why does this worry me?
TO Goz
Thanks for putting it straight, bluntly and to the point though. I realize no questions may be answered till monday but this is communication and communication usually breeds progress.
LOL Its sinking in. Take it or No pvp Oh man. Not what I truly was expecting.
What does this all mean?? AHHH more questions!!!!
I look forward to seeing what will happen. And since it CAN'T get worse, how bad can it be?
Seriously though, I know you will give it a great go, and I bet we'll like how things eventually turn out.
Regarding the scary save it or scrap it notion, I think it can be saved, and if it were relaunched in a big way once it was fixed with big incentives to get people involved and participating, it'd sort of snowball and pick up momentum. If nothing else, PVP being largely under the Radar allows it's rennovation to go on until things reach a point where you can "box it up" and unleash "NEW PVP! (tm)" with a big event etc.
PvP lives and dies on game mechanics and not just how balanced they are, but how innovative, and how well executed they are. As it stands right now, I think most of the pvp community can safely agree, the game mechanics are in dire straits at this time.
There are simply too many for me to list in one post (and indeed we can make an several hundred page long thread.. we have in the past) examining the core concepts, the Math, and the execution.
I'm not particularly shocked by your announcement that you could simply remove the ques and most of the players wouldn't notice. Most of us veterans have known that for at least a year now. Especially over the last year and a half or so. We que up, and deal with the same people, game after game after game.
Not only this, but several scores of pvp fleets have left this game over the last 2 years, due to a combination of the mechanics being way off, and frankly, the sheer lack of pvp modes... with only one of them being any sort of fun (Arena).
On a side note we can also tell that most people wouldn't notice pvp being gone... we see their fail builds daily
As long as you're demonstrating a willingness to learn and listen to feedback you'll have my backing all the way Gozer. Even if I don't necessarily agree with the changes. I'll make suggestions to tweak. But I won't hate on you like certain ...other devs.
1. While it's good that you're allowing cross-faction PVP, doesn't this defeat the purpose of "reviving" the Fed vs KDF war in S6? Wouldn't PVP be one of the best ways to revive that? Again, I'm all for cross-faction pvp, but I'm not sure removing FvK is a good idea
2. You said you were supposed to be fixing PvP with a minimal impact on game development. To be honest, I'm not really sure it's possible to fix PvP at all, unless you guys do one of the following:
1. Adjust weapons or abilities to work differently inside PvP, or in light of their effects in PvP (a pretty large task, I'm guessing)
2. Prevent certain "overpowered" abilities or weapons from working at all in PvP (again, a pretty big change)
3. Change the combat system entirely to include PvP in its consideration (again, not possible as you made clear)
You've definitely got your work cut out for you, Gozer, and I don't really envy your position. I do wish you the best of luck though.
Regarding this last point about PVE, I think things like the D'deridex Defender that snuck it's way into tribble inadvertantly after one patch would work well for that. As an aside, having a "defender" version of all NPCs at least for Veteran and Elite would make them feel more like Veteran and Elite. Going through PVE on elite, my only indication that I'm doing so as opposed to normal most of the time is stuff takes slightly longer to go boom. Having to think a little more about how you're going to bring something down would prepare people better for PVP.
All of these ideas are great. I hope you implant some if not all of them. You will be my best frend. Thank you for giving us these updates!
This message has been approved by: bluepiggreenpig - Goddess of Ker'rat Warzone
Changing the biggest and largest issue (FvK/FvF/FvK) into being just a single PVP Que where Fed and Klingon can Que up in the random ques together and get teamed up together sounds cool. Though I have to wonder what this means for Organized Teams in the Ques.. Hmm..
That information is a HUGE Bombshell. I only hope that it isn't set so that only Private Ques allow for Cross Faction Organized PVPing.
Honestly I wish you luck Gozer. Now you at least see just how big of a task this has become. If only we would have had you on the job ALOT sooner we might have gotten some of these changes done by now and maybe would have had a fun place to PVP.. Let's hope this time next year it's an excelent one.
This is exactly the time to have that discussion. It doesn't need to be a public flogging, but sweeping the problems of the past under the rug and not talking about them isn't constructive. Understanding how we got here is of enormous importance, as is finding out ways to avoid making the same mistakes in the future.
I can't see anyone in the PvP community getting angry at that. We know better than most the poor state that PvP is in, and if anything the brutal honesty is much appreciated. Hopefully we can be brutally honest about things too, and not have you get angry. There's quite a bit to be brutally honest about.
Most people here are going to disagree. Lack of dev time on PvP related systems and infrastructure definitely hasn't helped, but it is not the primary reason that PvP in this game is failing. Not by a long shot.
The reason is because PvP isn't fun.
The bare essentials of space combat are incredibly fun. That's why you still have a small PvP community left. What isn't fun is the complete lack of balance, the pet spam, and the enormous skill gap that exists in the community -- which poor balance further exasperates.
In terms of what is most important for PvP, balance trumps everything by an order of magnitude.
And, I'm sure you've heard this before, but the devs in the systems and itemization teams don't have a foggy clue about balance. It's impossible to wrap your head around what is balanced and what is not in a game of this magnitude unless you play at a competitive level. None of the devs are interested in learning. That's the root problem. Fix that and you fix everything. Fail to fix it and all of the infrastructure and development focus on the non-balance related aspects of PvP will be a complete waste of time.
The cold hard truth is if you aren't willing to get serious about balance, you should just kill off PvP. If you're unwilling to look into and fix the root issue then there's nothing that can be done to save PvP. You're wasting your time and Cryptic's money.
Open PvP territory control in contested sectors!
If PVP is dropped out of the game, I will end my sub and quit the game.
But, if changes do happen and its probably going to be better then what we have now, im all up for it.
As long as we can still make private challlenges for fleet vs fleet 5v5 matches. (Which are basically already faction mixed)
For example, if you remove the Repel immunity from Aux to ID, we'd freak out. But if we knew that the way Repel was going to work was getting changed so that we may not need Aux to ID for that, we wouldn't be so upset.
Also, (please don't take this in a demeaning way, it's not meant as such
It's like whatever we say or complain about gets thrown right back at us, but in a far worse fashion. It's like Cloaked Tractor Mines all over again. I (we) understand that STO is a business and as a business, profit must be made. But doing it in such a way that further degrades the only game type that we enjoy with this game... well, sucks.
How does that solve people being unable to get the same gear/ships/consoles/traits/etc, though? If people feel like fighting against Klingons is unfair, taking away their one safe refuge from Klingons - Fed v Fed - is going to make it worse, not better....
I would agree that allowing cross-faction PVP would go agains the idea of the Fed/Kingon war, however I also think that the sheer numbers make this a must. If I remember the numbers correctly Fed players out number the KDF something like 8:1. This ratio alone means that has to be a lot more Fed v.s. Fed PVP in order for the Fed players to actually want to PVP. Let's face it one of the big problems right now is that you have to que for a long time some days to get a PVP match going in the first place.
I also realize that this was a problem in other MMO's, just look at a lot of TOR servers and a lot of Imperial players are sick of PVP'ing aginst imp's, but again that's because there are so many more Imp players than there are republic players on a lot of servers.
As for the question of gear, I'm not sure what a lot of the complaints are regarding, sure the Kink's have access to some "special" consoles the Federation doesn't have access to, but that also goes in reverse. Outside of that both Fed and Klink have access to the same gear.
Speaking of gear, and I know this would be a long term project, but what about looking at specific PVP gear sets that give bonuses in PVP only, that way there is an incentive for players to earn that gear and use it in PVP. This would negate the need for players to use special consoles from C-Store ships and help even ensure that PVP fights have similiar types of gear.
Anyway Gozer regardless of what you do, good luck, it's not going to be an easy road and there are going to be people as you say that are either going to be happy or angry. At the end of the day hopefully PVP can be saved and made an appealing aspect to the game.
-just a messenger-
I suspect he's referring to any faction-exclusive gear of any kind which is commonly used in PvP, including consoles.
He clearly says there's going to be no more FvK PvP, which only leaves FvF and KvK as possibilities--unless I'm misunderstanding. If they are removing FvK for the sake of factional balance issues, then it doesn't logically follow that they'd then somehow allow for F+KvK+F. Admittedly, this is rather unfortunate, but I suppose it will make the issue of factional balance a much more simple matter, which may yet produce some silver lining.
I've brought this up before, but most don't seem to have an appreciation for it's significance--development time/resources are not going to be diverted to elements of the game which are negligible with regard to their appeal to the broader player base, it's really not complicated. It's no surprise at all that Goz brought this up; it's simply a fact of life with regard to game development. Such resources are finite, they aren't going to be wasted on something which only appeals to a marginal percentage of their playerbase when they could instead be used to develop that which may appeal to an exponentially larger majority of their playerbase.
Many people don't seem to grasp this, unfortunately; but it's really to be expected.
@OP
In any case, a weekly Friday update is an appreciated effort, and I suspect it may go a long way with many players (though there will forever be no pleasing some).
I'm honestly not too surprised by most of what has been said in the OP, and I wish you luck in your task of developing a viable, practical, and efficient way to save PvP, that proper development time and resources may be diverted toward it.
Just want to rephrase one point then. Gozer said "There will be no Fed vs. KDF PvP any more" ... sincethe whole idea of the KDF faction was as a pvp / monsterplay aspect, this statement means at least for me, that KDF is seen at a dead end...this can be dis.cussed at another place.
Just want to add that I would not shed a tear if you scrapped pvp and actually devoted the ressources to essential places. Just my 2 cents.
Honestly, I agree...either PvP needs to change in a big way, a way that makes it more accessible, and more fun for pugs, or I'd rather just see it killed. If it was killed, you could do all sorts of crazy-cool PvE stuff that you can't do because right now you have to at least pay lip service to the idea of PvP. I'd rather see STO with that freedom than have fun ideas be shelved because you don't want to make a couple hundred extremely vocal people angry(er).
The thing that might set people off their rockers is whatever you come up with to make PvP more accessible and enjoyable for low-skilled players. But oh well, you have to do what you have to do. I'd rather see dumbed down PvP that more people can enjoy than just fixing up the current system so a couple hundred people are happy with it.
Some things aren't going to be pleasant for the current PvP crowd. Example: Carrier spam. It isn't going away. Carrier pets are fun as hell. As a PvE player I want *more* pet spam, not less, and I'm not willing to sacrifice that for a more pure PvP experience, so folks are probably going to have to learn to deal with that, one way or another.
Actually, I'm pretty stoked about this now...fixing balance issues and PvP bugs isn't going to bring PvP back to life, even if it was perfect. It's too unforgiving for new folks. I hope you (and maybe some of us) can come up with some grand ideas to create a vibrant PvP experience.
BE GONE THEE DEMON SPAWN of SATAN!!!!!! (Said as a joke for those who cant tell)
You know, at the end of the day what we have now essentially *is* nothing but private matches. That's all the organizedPvP channel is....a few fleets and some random solo folks grouping up to fight each other and occasionally rofl-stomp some noobs.
PvP hasnt had any resources since launch.
This statement almost made me uninstall/
It's the truth though.
Not at all. Sure, yeah, OPvP gets organized matches up (that's the whole point
Any chance of the Gozer helping us test these upcoming changes?