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[UPDATE] Q&A Stream Follow up & Next Steps

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  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Posts: 87Member Arc User
    edited May 13
    @mimicking#6533 @nitocris83
    Thank you for taking the time to read these comments.

    I know there is a lot of vitriol and anger here, so hats off to you for suffering through it all to get a better picture of what we are upset about.

    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    With scaling, people are extremely frustrated because it is too heavy handed. This seems to be reaching emergency levels of frustration, hence the stream and this thread. I don't think tweaking things as they are is a safe approach anymore. In an effort to stop the bleeding, the degree of the scaling should be momentarily relaxed a decent amount across the board. From there, you can tweak and turn the dials to tighten things back up a bit, but everyone can at least breath during the process instead of suffocating like they are now.
  • cheerz4beerzcheerz4beerz Posts: 63Member Arc User
    So I work to get my character stat capped and feeling good to play. Then through no fault of my own my stats are drastically cut in old content so that no matter what I do I could never make my character feel good again. That is what the devs think is ok. A stat capped player having BS artificial difficulty thrust upon them by having most of their attacks deflect, not penetrate defenses, get crushed by enemy crits with absolutely nothing I can do to make myself stronger. That's what they think players want...It's no wonder the game is in the HAMSTER state it is. The devs don't have a clue... Reading that this change is intentional and what they were aiming for just makes me want to quit. This game is circling the drain.
  • hitchslappedhitchslapped Posts: 161Member Arc User
    momentarily relaxed won't cut it, tbh. there are two 'viable' options for scaling :

    1.) cancel it entirely, you know, because no one wanted it, and no one likes it. ( preferable )

    2.) scale players back TO the cap for that zone, but NEVER below it, and entirely ditch the scaling back of weapon damage. ( bare minimum to be 'tolerable', won't satisfy everyone but involves the least re-working of code. will still have some people leave, or decline to return, but would at least have some impact on retention and would allow visible progression and a return to running older content as a means of actually gauging your progression. )
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Posts: 185Member Arc User
    For a concept of scaling that works, look at the Borderlands or Diablo franchises. It may not be entirely suitable for NW and Diablo is kinda exreme scaling but it works. That's the key part, it WORKS. The concept used in those games could be translated across to NW without destroying anyone's brain either. And BONUS: You would have challenge for endgame players in lower level dungeons. Of course it's only an idea. But I noticed it because I've gone back to both and realised how awesome their scaling is compared to Neverwinter's.
    Main: Angels Scar
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  • teamstephonteamstephon Posts: 129Member Arc User
    edited May 13
    i knew this mod wasn't going to be ready and if there not going to fix it and do it right than yes i think mod15 should come back tell they sort everything out cause i really hate the scaling and how mobs and bosses should not go through you in just two hits and how companions should not just stand around you as well and do nothing when your in a fight cause this game might help you through stuff faster but it isn't the best mod i have ever seen so why make us all rage quit
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Posts: 601Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 13


    I am sorry that it came across that way. I am sure there are many times during the work day when I look like a deer in the head lights. I was honestly trying at first to parse if the question meant that adjusting stat caps was being asked as an option for players to be able to choose, and how that would then affect progression, as in, would it also scale rewards. The goal of level scaling is that you're scaled to a given challenge which includes scale ratings, aka not letting them stay capped.

    What that question did do, is reinforced to me as lead designer two places where level scaling is not making players happy. After I had a chance to think about these things more, I started to wonder that since we are adjusting stats on the player end, did we look deep enough into the balance of critter ratings- as this can really make a difference on how even level scaled stats can feel ineffective and frankly not powerful.
    The concept and goals of challenge campaigns was reviewed and signed off by me- with the ideas that players after hitting level 80 may not have completed or even started some of the previous campaigns, and that the risk reward of the scaling was sound. Some of the bugs that we found at launch clearly got past us, and we have made great strides to addressing them- and based upon player feedback we are still adjusting the scaling, and looking at the risk/reward loop and our original ideas for this system.

    This is not a done deal, but an ongoing conversation.
    Thanks again for this dialogue.
    M.K.

    Hello Mr. Foss. @mimicking#6533

    You can still fix this.

    Even if your goals of scaling are not players goals, you can still make players happy.
    Use a scaling method like Tales of old. More debuffs as the campaign is older. But keep everything else, so if you have a rank 15 or a rank 14 weapon enchantment, you still feel the difference.

    And the most important thing: I as an end game player with all the campaings done, I am fine doing CN in 20 minutes instead of 5, or other older dungeons with a challenge. But give me a carrot. Give me SOMETHING as a reward. You have lots of options, here are some examples:
    • Binded preservation / coal wards
    • Enchanting stones in various levels (4-5-6)
    • Masterwork materials (even if they are useless now they will be usefull in the future)
    • Companion upgrade tokens
    • Mount upgrade tokens (yes this doesnt exist but well you could implement it)
    • Good Companion gear
    • Refinement (minimum a diamond)
    • More Rough AD
    • Rare Dyes
    • Ask for ideas people will have plenty
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  • hitchslappedhitchslapped Posts: 161Member Arc User
    yeah uh... punishing people for progressing by making older content harder than newer content as soon as someone hits lvl71 ( and you can't turn off leveling, remember, so that's unavoidable. ), that ain't what neverwinter's about either, pal. nor is 'hard'. the newer content, with higher level caps, is meant to be harder than older content, with lower levels. that is how things have always worked in games. making it literally impossible to cap stats in older content for the sake of 'challenge' just irritates people. you may be an exception to that, but no1curr.
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Posts: 601Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @mimicking#6533

    Hello, Easy one to understand for you:

    lvl 80 critters, 68K base stat // lvl 70 critters 57K base stat ( A 9K stat difference )
    lvl 80 player, X stat // lvl 80 scaled player X - 9K stats

    A.K.A Progress is rewarded.
  • dolreydolrey Posts: 605Member Arc User
    edited May 13
    I agree that experienced players with top equipment should be stronger after scaling than beginers because they invested a lot of their time and probably moneys into all that. And.. Exactly this thing was said by lead designer at last Q&A stream. So I don't see reason for worries here because cryptics know about this point and probably they just need some time to tune it up.

    Have you ever in any other mmo had same dialog with developers? Not just writing your feedback or ideas to technical support but exactly talking with somebody from developers team. So these devs are very responcive. And there is no chance that they had not listened our opinions about this problem of scaling. As I have already said we just need to wait till they'll fix it.

  • hitchslappedhitchslapped Posts: 161Member Arc User
    also, you need to understand that when the very nature of the change is what's being objected to, waiting another month isn't going to make the nature of the change more acceptable to people. it might see some bugs fixed ( but this is cryptic, so there's no guarantee of that. ), but that's it. it won't make bad decisions magically be good ones.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,822Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    >
    Why? Thats not progression, and why people want content to be easy, i understand wanting rewards.. but the content old and new should be HARD. Thatd what neverwinter is about! Neverwinter was the best from mod 0 till mod 3, we need difficult Dungeons and rewards, as for stats i dont really care if u dont hit the caps or not, like seriously its a small problem.

    How is gearing up, upgrading your stuff so you can survive in L80 content, and then going back to a zone 10 levels beneath you and you getting your HAMSTER kicked "progression"?
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • ananxiousnoob#0947 ananxiousnoob Posts: 23Member Arc User
    Mr Foss I see a reluctance in your response to recognise the problem that you have created. It is not scaling per se that the player base is objecting to it is the hard cap whereby level 71 - 80 fully optimised players are placed at a disadvantage in comparison to level 70 just basic item players in old content. Why would anyone level 71 - 80 in their right mind run that old content even if the rewards are made better. I played to make things easier. If in a low level dungeon you give me a level 15 enchantment it has no value, except in very limited areas, because it will not make me stronger in that content. This will be my last attempt in this thread at trying to show you why the scaling system you have introduced is so bad for player retention. Other forum contributors have posted far better explanations than me and I will continue to support what they say but I am too despondent at your response to say anything further. I feel that it is a lost cause
  • chiatzouchiatzou Posts: 36Member Arc User
    I understand the want to cater to newer players all games need that. When that new player hits level 80 and then wants to do a random q to get AD they will leave. So at most you are looking at maybe a month of gameplay for a casual player. Are you hoping they spend money within that time? If they dont its done. You wont receive any money from that player.
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