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M15: Trickster Rogue Class Changes

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  • ibz4ez#9773 ibz4ez Posts: 117Member Arc User
    edited October 2018


    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    This is the issue right here with all the class balances you guys just made.
    You're considering balancing each class one by one and fixing bugs, changing synergies until the class itself has 3 workable feat trees and does a damage amount you consider to be doable in regards to designing dungeon/group/solo content around it.
    It's wrong straight up.

    100million damage in a single hit. To you seems bang out of order. But look at what the other classes are doing. GF in mod14 could hit a bunch of griffons wraths and hit well over 200mil damage. GWF was smashing IBS for 50,60,70 mil in a hit whilst following up with 13 mil at-wills.
    So instead of deciding to focus on the biggest offenders of hitting too much DPS in dungeons you decide to counter-productively nerf the PvE capabilities of the class that just needed tweaking. As a result you've just alienated every single PvE TR in the community from all group content permanently until the next module is out or the next bug discovered.

    Edited by Percemer: please remain respectful towards Neverwinter's teams, and focused on the main topic with constructive feedbacks.
    Post edited by percemer on
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Posts: 73Member Arc User

    All of them are freaking support class. How can they do more dps than a dps class ????

    On the other hand, have you ever seen a class besides TR have a hit for over a billion? Didn't think so.
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,138Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Congratulations, balancing for the 0.01% of TRs that were broken has taken it down from one semi viable build to none for those of us playing 13-15K PvE TRs. Another retired character.
  • mafiadelperro#8853 mafiadelperro Posts: 56Member Arc User
    > @blur#5900 said:
    > @noworries#8859
    > If your intention is to stop 100mil hits on a boss then your work just began, because GWF, CW, and GF can hit above 100mil as well. Aside from those classes being able to hit 100mil+ as well maybe its better to take a look at buffs which make all that possible. The buffs and debuffs in party runs are simply too high and bosses dont stand a chance even if you nerf all abilities which are able to hit above 100mil.
    >
    > Like @sirjimbofrancis said in comment on previous page, thanks to all that broken stuff (AoC Bomb, high power gain) TR was able to compete with other classes and only clearly overpower them in just 2 situations - Orcus fight if none of the DPS took Bloody Death and Arcolith without the use of Silvering Kit.
    > Only those two boss fights last long enough which allows TR to use Power loop(it wasnt used anywhere else) and easily overpower other classes. Every other boss fight was photo finish and it wasnt that rare that TR lost. In mod 15 TR will go from best class on Orcus and Arcolith to worst class, DC and OP aside.
    >
    > We lost a lot of buff from WoB, a lot of buff from CB, a lot of buff from ITC, 25%+ from SoD, we lost a lot from Aura of Courage, we lost a lot from Artificers Persuasion and all we gained was Gloaming Cut and for aoe fight Blade Flurry...
    >
    > These changes for TR balance are out of the touch with the class and i have no doubt that next thing you will have to do is to buff the class in mod16 since it will become obvious how much behind it is.
    >
    > The only good thing in this balance is that all 3 feat trees are much closer to each other than before and all 3 could have a purpose but the general dps output of the class has been halved. WK paragon is still not desirable for anything it offers.
    > Speaking from PvE perspective.

    This right here ^ our damage halved in half and are other thing that need to be consider like self buff time we Tr need time to self buff other classes like hr or gwf can easily kill everything before we can touch mobs for example what was saving me (well not that saving sme tbh was OP lol) from been not that behind in the elevator of Cradle from a class like gwf or hr was the aura of courage smoke bomb lool so why people will want me to play as TR if they can take other class that do better plus in some cases buff also hitting for 100mil any dps class with good buff can do it or even better like gf 100mil x3 or in some cases even 4 griffon wrath hr have also a insane burst damage gwf can hit for 170 mil ibs and now cw can desintigrate easily and constanly
  • kierna1917kierna1917 Posts: 6Member Arc User
    plz listen to advices that some experienced players posted here.
    TR just need at least one source of power/dmg buff, from daily, or encounter, or feat.
    I know there is some dmg buff spread through paragon feats, but lets just look to the other classes.
    Every single one of them has one source of dmg/or power buff, be it from encounter or tab mechanic or daily or other source.
    To leave one daily as it was doesnt require additional work, it would help a lot, and not be overpowered.
    ....after another few minutes of thinking what to write down....
    Whisperknife is still just a whisper, cannot even be used as some strange niche build.
    Good night everyone.
  • mafiadelperro#8853 mafiadelperro Posts: 56Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    > @seveninchblade said:
    > All of them are freaking support class. How can they do more dps than a dps class ????
    >
    >
    > On the other hand, have you ever seen a class besides TR have a hit for over a billion? Didn't think so.

    Bruh dont make stupid statement if u dont know <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> does 1bil hit was in preview server sod was doble dipping and was fixed before goin into live so thats what preview server is for to test and write feedback so that was broken get reported and get fixed and yes i have seen even a dcac hitting for 200mil with a super doble dipping bugged powers so your comment is irrelevant
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Posts: 73Member Arc User
    Double dipping SOD did go to live...
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • mafiadelperro#8853 mafiadelperro Posts: 56Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    > @seveninchblade said:
    > Double dipping SOD did go to live...

    Oh yeah sorry go to live for so short i forget about it sorry for how many days 8 days?
    Ither way was reported and fixed and was just broken
  • Welp its clear its gonna horrible time for TR for the duration of Mod15.... hope Mod16 turns out better.
  • I think I got an aneurysm^^.

    In any case, "doing over 100m damage is no good" is ironically not a good excuse.

    This means that in any case, even if we had 10x better gear, TRs would have to be artificially limited and if they manage to do 250 mil damage in the duration of SoD, they'd still only do 100m with the SoD proc.

    After some recent... "events", pissing off half yer community is definitely not a good idea, unless this is an investment for MTG.

    In any case, you're limiting a class to a DPS ceiling. The 300 mil SoDs were only possible on orcus due to Bloody Death.

    The best I've seen without it was 262m while it was double dipping debuffs. So yeah.

    I don't know who handles this, but this is worse than it was before the m13/14/whatever SoD fix.
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Posts: 42Member Arc User
    mirlegris said:


    This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.

    Good move. Maybe not enough, but it's a start.
    Agreed. In fact, I like that they understand that focus is quite general - to be viable. It's really that simple. We don't necessarily want to be dependent on "gaming the system." In a way, Mod14 was more a band-aid than a cure. To keep the TR viable can be done in many ways. I personally prefer balancing the fundamental mechanics first and then you build upon that via iteration.

    And it seems they are realizing that a tiny bit: "Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again."

    Basically I agree with your statement: "Good move. Maybe not enough."

    And the fact they could just make this type of change is good, because the amount of universal damage increase can be changed until pretty close to Mod15 release. Which means there is a lot of time, almost a month, for testing.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I praise the tweak in mindset/methodology of "balancing" the TR.

    But I'll keep hounding at your HAMSTER until execution matches theory.
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Posts: 42Member Arc User
    mirlegris said:


    This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.

    Good move. Maybe not enough, but it's a start.
    I agree completely with that last statement here. They're now looking for the right things to fix, starting by handling the class' foundational playstyle which includes starting from the base mechanics, too. Continue that iteratively. And I hope the method of iteration is being used, rather than throwing in big change that affects and is affected by too many more variables as well as extraneous variables.

    Progress via iteration is one of the prime tenets of academic research as well as testing and execution. Since I studied Mech. Engineering, both research and design are iterative processes. You have to take patient and contemplative steps. To be a good detective that doesn't jump to conclusions, My Dear Watson.

    So again, this change is very much in the right direction "philosophically."

    Just keep it up.
  • Also, I apologize in advance:

    They definitely "executed" the class.
  • blackstar#3253 blackstar Posts: 14Member Arc User

    Damage for TRs went down from where they were in M14. This is called out many times in this thread as a reason that different powers should get buffed up. However, generally it isn't also acknowledged that TRs had sky high damage in M14 and that isn't where any class should be at.

    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    Smoke Bomb didn't have its damage reduced because of the AoC bug, that was a bug and as such it was fixed. The damage was reduced because it was a power primarily intended to control targets, not to also be one of the highest damaging powers in the TR arsenal and as such be used in almost all situations.

    Balance doesn't just mean reducing/increasing the stats on a power. Sometimes synergies need to be changed or removed all together, and other times functionality needs to be significantly changed to open up other options in a class. We need to be able to make those kinds of changes, when necessary, or we can't get the game into a good place with classes/content.

    This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.

    ____________
    Un giocatore potenzia il personaggio per portarlo a dare il massimo delle sue possibilità..

    1) non tutti riescono a fare più di 100 milioni di danno..
    2) solitamente, solo gli end game player possono fare quel danno stratosferico..
    3) Se il vostro obbiettivo, è quello di non dare la possibilità, di fare 100 milioni di danno, cosa ti aspetti da un giocatore end game ?
    4) Ti aspetti solo 10 milioni di danno ? Se è questo che ti aspetti...a quale scopo abbiamo potenziato i nostri personaggi ?
    5) Non mi limito a parlare del ladro, ma tutte le classi...

    Oltre ad essere un dps sono anche un chierico devoto e un paladino...sono abbastanza oggettivo sulle cose e mi immedesimo abbastanza bene anche nei panni delle altre classi.
    Dunque, quel danno è dato da una combinazione di giocatori ("solitamente" end game) con il massimo del buff possibile, artefatti, abilità, poteri, talenti, ecc. ecc. ed è tutto potenziato al massimo.. (e devi avere il tempismo giusto.. "cosa che non facile")

    bene: detto questo, i giocatori end game avranno il danno diminuito e limitato...ma ai giocatori più bassi di livello cosa succederà ? ..(Non parlo di me, io sono end game con il mio ladro, il mio problema personale riguardo a questo nerf è solamente la paura di non essere invitato nei gruppi per il basso danno che produrrò) ..i giocatori più bassi, poveretti, dovranno stare 30/40 minuti in castello never di cui 15 minuti solo ad orcus ? Sto solo ipotizzando, ma la media è di 20 minuti con un gruppo di livello medio 10/12k gs..

    (Ecco una semplice domanda alla quale mi piacerebbe avere una risposta...Perchè avete il bisogno di nerfare i personaggi, stravolgendo la vita dei giocatori, quando invece potreste produrre contenuti più difficili ?)

    Ogni tot mesi è sempre la solita storia...nerf qua e là ...e la gente deve attraversare il proprio periodo di frustrazione...perchè a dir la verità...parliamoci chiaro, è questa una delle vere frustrazioni di questo gioco...e non è la divinità del chierico devoto o la chiamata divina del paladino ad essere frustrante... io ho già detto in un commento precedente, che non mi lamenterò della riduzione del mio danno, ma sentendo i vari ladri, che hanno la possibilità di testare il danno su pc, la situazione non sembra essere delle migliori...
    Vi ringrazio per aver dato un aumento di potenza di base con l'incremento del 5%, mi auguro solo che sia sufficiente ad essere competitivi con gli altri dps...ma non per essere il primo dps, non mi interessa essere, il primo dps nei risultati...mi piace e mi diverte giocare i dungeon perchè per me personalmente i dungeon sono la migliore esperienza di gioco di neverwinter,
    mi auguro sia sufficiente solo per poter avere una possibilità di essere invitato nei gruppi per i contenuti di dungeon..
  • Damage for TRs went down from where they were in M14. This is called out many times in this thread as a reason that different powers should get buffed up. However, generally it isn't also acknowledged that TRs had sky high damage in M14 and that isn't where any class should be at.

    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    Smoke Bomb didn't have its damage reduced because of the AoC bug, that was a bug and as such it was fixed. The damage was reduced because it was a power primarily intended to control targets, not to also be one of the highest damaging powers in the TR arsenal and as such be used in almost all situations.

    Balance doesn't just mean reducing/increasing the stats on a power. Sometimes synergies need to be changed or removed all together, and other times functionality needs to be significantly changed to open up other options in a class. We need to be able to make those kinds of changes, when necessary, or we can't get the game into a good place with classes/content.

    This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.

    ____________
    Un giocatore potenzia il personaggio per portarlo a dare il massimo delle sue possibilità..

    1) non tutti riescono a fare più di 100 milioni di danno..
    2) solitamente, solo gli end game player possono fare quel danno stratosferico..
    3) Se il vostro obbiettivo, è quello di non dare la possibilità, di fare 100 milioni di danno, cosa ti aspetti da un giocatore end game ?
    4) Ti aspetti solo 10 milioni di danno ? Se è questo che ti aspetti...a quale scopo abbiamo potenziato i nostri personaggi ?
    5) Non mi limito a parlare del ladro, ma tutte le classi...

    Oltre ad essere un dps sono anche un chierico devoto e un paladino...sono abbastanza oggettivo sulle cose e mi immedesimo abbastanza bene anche nei panni delle altre classi.
    Dunque, quel danno è dato da una combinazione di giocatori ("solitamente" end game) con il massimo del buff possibile, artefatti, abilità, poteri, talenti, ecc. ecc. ed è tutto potenziato al massimo.. (e devi avere il tempismo giusto.. "cosa che non facile")

    bene: detto questo, i giocatori end game avranno il danno diminuito e limitato...ma ai giocatori più bassi di livello cosa succederà ? ..(Non parlo di me, io sono end game con il mio ladro, il mio problema personale riguardo a questo nerf è solamente la paura di non essere invitato nei gruppi per il basso danno che produrrò) ..i giocatori più bassi, poveretti, dovranno stare 30/40 minuti in castello never di cui 15 minuti solo ad orcus ? Sto solo ipotizzando, ma la media è di 20 minuti con un gruppo di livello medio 10/12k gs..

    (Ecco una semplice domanda alla quale mi piacerebbe avere una risposta...Perchè avete il bisogno di nerfare i personaggi, stravolgendo la vita dei giocatori, quando invece potreste produrre contenuti più difficili ?)

    Ogni tot mesi è sempre la solita storia...nerf qua e là ...e la gente deve attraversare il proprio periodo di frustrazione...perchè a dir la verità...parliamoci chiaro, è questa una delle vere frustrazioni di questo gioco...e non è la divinità del chierico devoto o la chiamata divina del paladino ad essere frustrante... io ho già detto in un commento precedente, che non mi lamenterò della riduzione del mio danno, ma sentendo i vari ladri, che hanno la possibilità di testare il danno su pc, la situazione non sembra essere delle migliori...
    Vi ringrazio per aver dato un aumento di potenza di base con l'incremento del 5%, mi auguro solo che sia sufficiente ad essere competitivi con gli altri dps...ma non per essere il primo dps, non mi interessa essere, il primo dps nei risultati...mi piace e mi diverte giocare i dungeon perchè per me personalmente i dungeon sono la migliore esperienza di gioco di neverwinter,
    mi auguro sia sufficiente solo per poter avere una possibilità di essere invitato nei gruppi per i contenuti di dungeon..
    o HAMSTER

    We don't speak spaghetti here, please translate.
  • Damage for TRs went down from where they were in M14. This is called out many times in this thread as a reason that different powers should get buffed up. However, generally it isn't also acknowledged that TRs had sky high damage in M14 and that isn't where any class should be at.

    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    Smoke Bomb didn't have its damage reduced because of the AoC bug, that was a bug and as such it was fixed. The damage was reduced because it was a power primarily intended to control targets, not to also be one of the highest damaging powers in the TR arsenal and as such be used in almost all situations.

    Balance doesn't just mean reducing/increasing the stats on a power. Sometimes synergies need to be changed or removed all together, and other times functionality needs to be significantly changed to open up other options in a class. We need to be able to make those kinds of changes, when necessary, or we can't get the game into a good place with classes/content.

    This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.

    ____________
    Un giocatore potenzia il personaggio per portarlo a dare il massimo delle sue possibilità..

    1) non tutti riescono a fare più di 100 milioni di danno..
    2) solitamente, solo gli end game player possono fare quel danno stratosferico..
    3) Se il vostro obbiettivo, è quello di non dare la possibilità, di fare 100 milioni di danno, cosa ti aspetti da un giocatore end game ?
    4) Ti aspetti solo 10 milioni di danno ? Se è questo che ti aspetti...a quale scopo abbiamo potenziato i nostri personaggi ?
    5) Non mi limito a parlare del ladro, ma tutte le classi...

    Oltre ad essere un dps sono anche un chierico devoto e un paladino...sono abbastanza oggettivo sulle cose e mi immedesimo abbastanza bene anche nei panni delle altre classi.
    Dunque, quel danno è dato da una combinazione di giocatori ("solitamente" end game) con il massimo del buff possibile, artefatti, abilità, poteri, talenti, ecc. ecc. ed è tutto potenziato al massimo.. (e devi avere il tempismo giusto.. "cosa che non facile")

    bene: detto questo, i giocatori end game avranno il danno diminuito e limitato...ma ai giocatori più bassi di livello cosa succederà ? ..(Non parlo di me, io sono end game con il mio ladro, il mio problema personale riguardo a questo nerf è solamente la paura di non essere invitato nei gruppi per il basso danno che produrrò) ..i giocatori più bassi, poveretti, dovranno stare 30/40 minuti in castello never di cui 15 minuti solo ad orcus ? Sto solo ipotizzando, ma la media è di 20 minuti con un gruppo di livello medio 10/12k gs..

    (Ecco una semplice domanda alla quale mi piacerebbe avere una risposta...Perchè avete il bisogno di nerfare i personaggi, stravolgendo la vita dei giocatori, quando invece potreste produrre contenuti più difficili ?)

    Ogni tot mesi è sempre la solita storia...nerf qua e là ...e la gente deve attraversare il proprio periodo di frustrazione...perchè a dir la verità...parliamoci chiaro, è questa una delle vere frustrazioni di questo gioco...e non è la divinità del chierico devoto o la chiamata divina del paladino ad essere frustrante... io ho già detto in un commento precedente, che non mi lamenterò della riduzione del mio danno, ma sentendo i vari ladri, che hanno la possibilità di testare il danno su pc, la situazione non sembra essere delle migliori...
    Vi ringrazio per aver dato un aumento di potenza di base con l'incremento del 5%, mi auguro solo che sia sufficiente ad essere competitivi con gli altri dps...ma non per essere il primo dps, non mi interessa essere, il primo dps nei risultati...mi piace e mi diverte giocare i dungeon perchè per me personalmente i dungeon sono la migliore esperienza di gioco di neverwinter,
    mi auguro sia sufficiente solo per poter avere una possibilità di essere invitato nei gruppi per i contenuti di dungeon..
    o HAMSTER

    We don't speak spaghetti here, please translate.
    (also, italian words for "rooster" being censored?)
  • blackstar#3253 blackstar Posts: 14Member Arc User
    LOL I also i dont speak english, so, copy paste and google translate..sry guys too long to translate for me..
  • theothergaliusz#7671 theothergaliusz Posts: 52Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Well i experience in 'neverwinter night 2' a balancing game content first hand on private server.
    "We only wanted to make the game more chalenging so... "
    Problem nr1. People buffs them self before the fight begin and kill monsters when they try to cast defensive spells on themself.
    solution: Add system that put instant buff on spellcasterMonsters =) .
    That was Great idea from technical standpoint.
    Result: Game was to hard for a group of 10 people to leave town at night at early levels (Nr. of monster larger and stronger)
    PLaying game for 2-3hour(result with many death and experience lose) and not get chest at all is considered a wast of time by player. Also the reward at the end was not sadisfy for the effort.

    ---- PLayers AGE need to be taken into account. People who works, people who study, kids. Time spent on the game is different. Real life is more important and getting frustrated over a game is something everyone experience in life and also with a little push result with finding something more enjoyable in life. After x month old players come back or just show up in game to check if the game is still bad. Maybe there is already a game in development with the same D&D mechanic and Fearun word to start adventure.-----

    Problem nr2. There exist one person who play the game 20hours and there is normal people who spend 2-4 hours. How to stop him from level greending so he wont end up with 10-20 level different and rule the word of roleplayingGame.
    Old system: Huge experience lose that take player 1-3-7 day of greending back. Resurect spells could half the penetly.
    new System: Make death cheaper and penetry so its not a punishem. BUT let set a daily cap of experience gain by single player, and also let do daily gold limit so we could easy calculate how much levelup could player get playing over 1 year and it will still not end with max level.

    Result of new system: Player only enter server to fill the LIMIT when they start getting one 1exp per kill they try to roleplayingGame or get DungeonMaster quest or leave the game. Limit cup let people spend less time in the server. Different people play the game at a random hours and its hard to meet friends. If you ask them to come Greend level with you - you can meet answer: " sory i did my daily job for today so it wast of time for me".

    Of course nerfing class can have impact where Beginer player with 12k IL try to run endgame dungeon. Experience people after nerf wont help them pass the dungeon. After many failures, also those nerfed classes will need help from other people. I also experience many 18k DC who left party because dungeon run toke to much of their time. Everyone know how hard it is to find DC in the game. How much time you spend to form party that will not taste failure. Risk are something you dont take in the game without huge gain.

    Random WISDOM:
    Lisining to players is not alwayes a good idea/practice because they are in the dark of some issues, loophole that can be created by them. Some ideas are imposible to implement, but there can be one idea that can result with feature that eveyrone can enjoy, but you need read 50 of them.

    To make everyone enjoy the game is not an easy task, but it is not impossible. Some mistakes or different point of view on game can have a heavy consequences and ignoring them is not something anyone should do. If you take something important you should give back something at last 3x time better before it is to late. With every patch you are creating a history - people will remember those mistakes and after some times maybe someone will understand.

  • blackstar#3253 blackstar Posts: 14Member Arc User
    i had done...but i wasn't sure if it translated good, so i decised to post in my language atleast im sure aboutwhat im saying..i repeat sry...but i dont speak english...i speak it just a bit
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