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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • tenetombtenetomb Posts: 105Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I think one of the best things I've read in this thread is Murderous Flames working with Fiery Bold.

    Not every flame damage power because as @bloodyspamer said, there are many and it would be too powerful with Hellish Rebuke / Flames of Phlegetos.

    But on Fiery Bold, it could close the gap between SW and the other classes in aoe !
  • masterclown61masterclown61 Posts: 101Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Hey to all,

    I have a level 70 SW fury. I actually main HR but sometimes I put my enchants to SW and enjoy playing with it. In my opinion, what makes SW a Sw is the constant damaging numbers on the screen which is very appealing to me, but in order for these gazillion different weapon damage based damage to work well, they also should be critting imo. Also for the fury capstone, 8 seconds is too much for it to work nicely even with dreadtheft + pop + blades combo. Instead of increasing the weapon damage percentage it deals, I would either decrease the 8 seconds to 4 or make it crit with what it is right now. Imagine how many SWs would go for vorpal, if all these weapon damages would crit :)
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 234Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    tenetomb said:

    I think one of the best things I've read in this thread is Murderous Flames working with Fiery Bold.



    Not every flame damage power because as @bloodyspamer said, there are many and it would be too powerful with Hellish Rebuke / Flames of Phlegetos.



    But on Fiery Bold, it could close the gap between SW and the other classes in aoe !

    This. +10000000
    And getting maximum damage from killing flames earlier.

    (remember the initial goal of this thread is to make quick fixes/improvements, but all other suggestions are welcome for long-term rework)
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,063Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    tenetomb said:

    I think one of the best things I've read in this thread is Murderous Flames working with Fiery Bold.



    Not every flame damage power because as @bloodyspamer said, there are many and it would be too powerful with Hellish Rebuke / Flames of Phlegetos.



    But on Fiery Bold, it could close the gap between SW and the other classes in aoe !

    Maybe I did not understand this correct. A 30% increase of FB on a single target will not raise the dps on a single target, simply because I do not use Fiery Bold on a single target, even not if it´s damage is increase for 30%.
    Only effect would be a 30% increase of aoe effect, not overwhelming imo.
    I think that feat would be great, if every fire damage would be boosted by 30% as mentioned above... Hellish rebuke , FB, KF, AoH, FoP. Nice effect and I don´t think it´s too much, if so downscale it towards 10% and let KF stay at 30% alone.

    If I exclude Creeping Death, Aura of Courage, Tyrannical Curse, Infantile compensation, Wheel of elements, wich all are tied to raw damage somehow, the percentage looks like this in my run: AoH 8%, KF 20%, PoP 10%, HR 26%, WB 16%, FB 8%, FoP 14%
    FB will be like 8% x 1,3 = 10,4% ....+2,4% not gamebreaking
    If I ad a plain 30%+ towards fire damage from AoH, KF, HR, FB, FoP it is a 26% dps increase in the sum, more or less 9%+dps if fire damage is increased by 10% not 30%
    All this will make necrotic encounter/At wills be forgotten in a way.... Eldrich Blast, Brood, Vampiric Embrance, Cursed Bite, Wraith Shadow.
    I only use WB in PVE as Striker.
    DT is optional as Templock, if you do not reach debuff cap, but templock is the stepchild and not the norm in buffruns.
    Btw. anyone knows what the limit of effectiveness is at debuff-cap, since I allways watch effectiveness >200% using ACT ?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 234Member Arc User

    tenetomb said:

    I think one of the best things I've read in this thread is Murderous Flames working with Fiery Bold.



    Not every flame damage power because as @bloodyspamer said, there are many and it would be too powerful with Hellish Rebuke / Flames of Phlegetos.



    But on Fiery Bold, it could close the gap between SW and the other classes in aoe !

    Maybe I did not understand this correct. A 30% increase of FB on a single target will not raise the dps on a single target, simply because I do not use Fiery Bold on a single target, even not if it´s damage is increase for 30%.
    Only effect would be a 30% increase of aoe effect, not overwhelming imo.
    I think that feat would be great, if every fire damage would be boosted by 30% as mentioned above... Hellish rebuke , FB, KF, AoH, FoP. Nice effect and I don´t think it´s too much, if so downscale it towards 10% and let KF stay at 30% alone.

    If I exclude Creeping Death, Aura of Courage, Tyrannical Curse, Infantile compensation, Wheel of elements, wich all are tied to raw damage somehow, the percentage looks like this in my run: AoH 8%, KF 20%, PoP 10%, HR 26%, WB 16%, FB 8%, FoP 14%
    FB will be like 8% x 1,3 = 10,4% ....+2,4% not gamebreaking
    If I ad a plain 30%+ towards fire damage from AoH, KF, HR, FB, FoP it is a 26% dps increase in the sum, more or less 9%+dps if fire damage is increased by 10% not 30%
    All this will make necrotic encounter/At wills be forgotten in a way.
    Arms of Hadar could benefit from this boost too (I did not realize it was a fire power): a boost to AOE encounters would be nice because SWs are lackluster in this domain. Fiery bolt and AoH are a staple for AOE because they are quite quick to cast (unlike harrowstorm..).

    I think that devs will not agree to apply murderous flames effect on ALL fire damage powers, at least not for the moment. They are going to watch how the situation evolves.
    So, I will be happy if they could add murderous flame effect at least to FB and AoH for mod13.
  • slyef#6396 slyef Posts: 33Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    One question

    Will the new feats that scale with power/buffs be able to crit ?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,063Member Arc User
    edited November 2017

    One question

    Will the new feats that scale with power/buffs be able to crit ?

    Critcal promise and Killing curse doesn´t crit, they are a proc of an ammount of weapondamage, and they also do not proc of every Dot-tick and aoe. CP ignores far more than 50% of our damage (Dot´s, procs like Creeping death). Those weapondamage procs scale pretty meh with the damage from warlock compared to other classes like GF/GWF.
    If you use a testweapon on preview with exact 1000 weapondamage, Killing curse is a proc of 150 damage (15%), leading to a not measurable ammount of damage in a dungeonrun. Same with Critical Promise 500 damage (50%), that procs meh of aoe and only once from the first hit of a DOT. The only encounter that procs Critical Promise accurat as an aoe is BoVA. In Tong Critical Promise deals 0,0025% ....wow

    Trans Feytouched "pschich damage-proc", same as other Weapon enchants crit and scale with buffs (inside PoP 26% outside 19%), benefits from debuffs and also scales with power. No clue how Critical Promise will be buffed in mod 13. If that 20% becomes 27% inside pop and 50% at 100k power and benefits from debuffs same as fey does? It definetely doesn´t crit atm.

    I can tell from trans Feytouched WE-proc that deals a higher ammount compared to that 20% from Critical Promise, it´s about 2% on live server, CP about 0,004%. In a dungeonrun this 2% will be worse as far as I remember, so we talk about the optimal case.
    That 2% on a critbuild have to be scaled down 2%: 2,8, since CP doesn´t crit.
    So from all that numbers I will predict that Critical Promise in mod 13 will be worse than 1%, more like 0,7% damage, if CP behaved like Fey proc scaling with debuff, buff and power (I doubt that).
    Killing Curse will proc more consistent but will deal similar ammounts on a critbuild at 25% weapondamage.
    We end up with a dps win from both feats like 1,5% , if we are lucky, but it will be far worse I am sure.... enjoy your 10 points sinking into those feats :)

    That´s why I ranted about GF´s 750% proc BUFFED weapondamage and the fact that warlocks get´s his tiny 50% limited down to 20%, why?
    And again: No, CP does not proc consistent from DOT´s and no it is not proccing consitent from aoe at least those that I tend to use. It procs of Hadar Grasp, DT, BoVA, Harrowstorm
    It procs once from WB, FB (2), AoH, Hellish rebuke, Brood, Soulscorch
    But I am far away to go for a build using HG+BoVA+DT to halve my dps only to proc CP as a Hellbringer, same as dps-Soulbinder are not going to use Dread Theft or Harrowstorm (normally), even HG is only from use combined with Feytouched.

    If you want it that way: "Cryptic hates Dot-classes, especially warlocks", since all we do is suffering from those DOT´s, in PVP, in PVE (no burst) and in things like Weapon enchant reworks with a poor outcome.
    They just have no answer towards a Dot class, maybe it would be better to skip all that DOT nonsense?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • slyef#6396 slyef Posts: 33Member Arc User

    One question

    Will the new feats that scale with power/buffs be able to crit ?

    Critcal promise and Killing curse doesn´t crit, they are a proc of an ammount of weapondamage, and they also do not proc of every Dot-tick and aoe.
    I know they don't atm, But there's a similar SW feat which DOES scale, and which can crit, So I wondered if these feat would receive the same treatment

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,063Member Arc User
    edited November 2017

    One question

    Will the new feats that scale with power/buffs be able to crit ?

    Critcal promise and Killing curse doesn´t crit, they are a proc of an ammount of weapondamage, and they also do not proc of every Dot-tick and aoe.
    I know they don't atm, But there's a similar SW feat which DOES scale, and which can crit, So I wondered if these feat would receive the same treatment

    Even if they crit, they are not worth the points and CP stays as a "no better option" and Killing Curse will be second or third to fourth choice after Morderous flame, Infernal wrath and Offering to the prisoner.
    We need serious buffs, please. (and I am fed up running endcontent with my DC all time, I want my warlock inside)
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User

    My post got messed up for some reason, but just reposting because I think this could help:

    They could put all of Po9H into PoP, and maybe reduce the time if they think it's too much, like making it 3 seconds at max PoP rank. Then for Po9H they could make it add a little more time to the buff outside PoP and also make it buff the puppet damage by 10% on targets affected by hellish rebuke or to targets inside a pillar.

    I believe this would keep it in the theme of hellbringer and damnation and be a little more useful without being mandatory for other trees.

    PoP and PoNH merging already suggested in my post...

    as for idea for Hellish rebuke. I would disagree. Firstly Damnation tree is not just Hell bringer, but soul binder too.
    Also I prefer not bound certain feats to use specific power..

    As good examples, Current temptation HB have Hellish condemnation - dmg reduction for HR affected target..
    When you finish apply it for 10 foes group, the mostly already dead ones. Which end up as time wasting..

    Po9H, which is the one being discussed here, is HB only. One of the T2 feats is always related to one of the paragon paths that you chose, boosting something related to that paragon alone. Since it is supposed to replace power of the nine hells, which is hellbringer only, it should be related to hellbringer. If I was replacing the soulbinder one (which is in the same spot as Po9H but is not Po9H) I would add something that on top of increasing the duration of immolation spirits (exclusive to SB) it could make sparks increase puppet damage or whatever.

    The point was proposing something to replace PO9H (again, this is only for HELLBRINGER), since we wanted PoP to contain everything po9h gives right now.

    And hellish condemnation is not a total waste. The debuff is at least useful and better than what you can get at that point. The way you think about using it against a 10 mob group is weird.

    Also, check gatekeeper's empowerment. Boosts gates of hell and hellish rebuke as well.
  • random1selfrandom1self Posts: 34Member Arc User
    It'd be helpful at least if burning soul and dust to dust artifact off hand power had a lasting effect. For each stack of 6 soul sparks get a stack of "burning soul" which gives you a damage boost for x amount time.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Posts: 129Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I do have to agree that, since mod 12b launched less than two weeks ago, not releasing any of the fixes and tweaks until mod 13 is abit too long in my opinion.

    Unless mod 13 releases in a month or so, but I think that would never happen.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced#2849

    Couldn't the changes be released before mod 13? Mod 13 is far from being released on PC and a good 5 months or so on console, that's a very long time. Maybe the changes could be released like 1 or 2 per maintenance days?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,063Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    They won´t rework the class, and do not plan so, only small fixes.
    The nails are nealry in the coffin, if not some significant improvements will happen.

    In the meantime I run my DC and equip my warlock to be a BIS invoker :)
    Honestly, since I run with both classes atm (DC/Warlock), I witness the difference between them regarding support, same as I witness the inabilty to compete as striker.
    The class is at the bottom of all classes regarding PVP and PVE.... It´s annoying and I feel with those player, who do not have any alternatives except to play this class.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,063Member Arc User
    edited November 2017

    I am on xboxone console... i've spend big amount of money on my sw so i can't ignore the fact that this class is nerfed too much, broken, underpowered... unplayable soon mod 12b due to more nerf (healing) etc etc.

    I don't give a HAMSTER if you say/think im whining/crying too much. Devs doing a poor job tbh. If you want us to support them and this game then stop destroying a class by nerfing every mod more and more ffs! Now we have to wait 10 years until sw is 50% fixed and haven't said about class rework yet (smh)

    When I started this game 4 years ago I picked warlock class, felt good so far, did PVP , died a lot, improved. The class was not competetive in PVP those days but playable and beside gazillion of posts and threads and fixes and so on, the class went downhill in PVP from mod to mod.
    If you intend to play PVP I really warn to go on with that class.
    Just get a TR to 70, no Boons needed. Slot ITC, get some deflect and have fun...
    Look at Rius Dailies, think he spams them all 5 seconds?
    At 7:00, that DC is BiS-PVP veteran , as far as I remember, once unkillable ... but 100k SoD procs will deal with him.
    If you follow other vids you will see, that the only class he got issues to handle is his own class. Best offence and best defence at once, clap, clap... and that´s PVP in short
    This is what Cryptic made PVP over the years by improvements.


    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Damnation is obviously a tree that combines supportive skills with damage skills, but on a much lesser scale than both Fury and Temptlock.

    The way this works is that the Damnlock relies heavily on the presence of the Soul Puppet to significantly boost its damage potential and survivability, since it is a persistent effect target-able unit that deals damage even while the warlock does something else and which benefits from powers like Dreadtheft.
    Damnlocks are able to provide limited party support simply because their skillset/loadout favors damage/supportive powers (because the puppet doesn't really scale with anything else). This includes Wraith's Shadow (debuff, Soul Puppet summon/Soul Investiture stack generation), Hadar's Grasp (nuke, debuff, puppet damage boost), Pillar of Power (buff, debuff) and Dreadtheft (damage, debuff).

    For the record, the puppet is basically Damnation's Creeping Death (and an oh-so-gimped Creeping Death it is, atm). A dead puppet means that Damnation is basically Temptation minus the party buffs. I'm not sure what the point is with all the proposed buffs to the warlock while the puppet - the thing that makes Damnation what it is - is ignored.

    First off, before anything else, PLEASE move the Soul Investiture stack buff ICON to the warlock. It is just about impossible to track that thing on the Soul Puppet even though it IS one of the more important effects a Damnlock player should be tracking.

    Secondly, if you want to buff Damnation then you should simply raise the Soul Investiture stack limit and possibly modify the Soul Investiture stack buff value. That's it. Forget those other buffs unless you want Damnation to become just another Fury in the general sense (seriously - what would be the point in having two warlock trees that do the same thing? It boggles the mind, if we wanted to play Fury we have a loadout for that).
    However, Damnation SHOULD be rewarded for being able to keep its puppet alive (which is already kind of the point for the reason given above) long enough to reach the higher Soul Investiture stack limit, especially since stacks fall off easily out of combat - not to mention the puppet tends to die in a lot in some encounters. An increased stack limit of 15, for example, would translate to a +200% damage increase. Obviously feats like Burning Puppets would need to be readjusted.
    The idea is that in longer fights a well played Damnation would rival Fury in the single target damage front, while maintaining a diverse damage/supportive power loadout. I suppose if you go pure damage you can even beat Fury, but you'd be risking Soul Investiture de-generation and the possible destruction of your Soul Puppet.

    If it helps you guys can introduce this change gradually - start with 10 stacks, increase later depending on feedback. Is it really so hard to do just this? As it currently stands "nice" would be a severe overstatement for your proposed Damnation changes. Come on guys, wouldn't it be easier to keep track of changes when you only have the Soul Puppet to worry about? It practically already doesn't scale with anything so you have a LOT less to worry about in terms of possible interactions between powers. Wouldn't this change work out best for everyone involved?
    Also in a perfect world Soul Investiture generation would be added to more powers/increased on powers like dailies, but that can wait.

    Finally, you guys REALLY need to fix broken (and I mean literally barely-working) warlock powers. Wraith's Shadow is still broken (and have you guys actually tried using the power with an allied unit in the way of the targeting circle? It's been several mods and this still hasn't been fixed) and seriously warlock powers are supposed to go off faster than the powers of other casters. Isn't that supposed to be one of the things that makes D&D warlocks what they are? Faster casting times would be a massive buff to SW quality of life.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
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  • treesclimbertreesclimber Posts: 1,161Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @balanced#2849 is the temptation curse boost going to work on companions and soul puppets?

  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 234Member Arc User
    I am a firm believer that SWs (should) rely on dailies.

    If the cooldowns and animation times of the encounters powers are not reduced , what about increasing the base damage of the dailies ? I know that some of them will be corrected soon (October bugfix) but it is not enough.

    In fact, I am worried for the SW fury path: even with the increase by 15% of the damage dealt by creeping death and the few other minors buffs to some feats, I am afraid that SWs will still be largely behind other DPS classes with these bitter feeling of being useless.

    There are no self-buffs, so we cannot achieve any >10M damage in one hit (unlike GWF or GF for example). When I hit for >3M (excluding the DoT from CD), it is Christmas lol. And we cannot hit frequently, so we cannot compensate the lack of big damage (in addition to the lack of burst damage),

    So devs, please keep that in mind , and consider all the precious feedback given so far. We know that a full rework is unlikely to happen soon, so you can add some other buffs/changes now, while you still have time for us.
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    exelent news i always like playstyle damnation path, seem will be good choice for every ocasión actually use one loadout damnation and one fury but the final feat that say increase damage 20% of your soul puppet evrithing summon one and have alredy one active. This is a problema if all dps depend of this feat and in the bosses not can summon soul puppet so not stacks this feat not good option for bosses lost a lot dps in this case im forced switch to fury and I say forced because not like me but in some cases is only away do DPS
  • akta#9913 akta Posts: 60Member Arc User
    Hey Mr. Balanced, I was wondering about the 10% bonus from the darkness feat in the temptation tree. Can we stack this to 20% incoming and outgoing damage by using both Harrowstorm and Blades of the Vanquished at the same time? Also could you please address the concerns about the buff associated with the pillar sharing being lower after the changes than it is now? It currently gives more than what is stated in the tool tip according to some users who have posted in this thread.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Posts: 129Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    A very easy, and great, fix is the fix to Dark Revelry that has been mentioned multiple times in the thread. This should not be too hard as there are similar powers out there already.

    Please make it give 20% of the templocks power to all allies
This discussion has been closed.