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Is PVP the next thing to be removed?

silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,160Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
Interesting discussions in my guild channel this morning.

Just a passing thought, want to explore it .

If you apply the same logic, as to why the Foundry had to go (little interest, small % of player-base, lack of support and knowledge to make it work, interferes with the core of the game)

EVERYTHING said about the foundry, could be applied to PVP in this game.. every single one.

I am not a PRO foundry person, neither am I ANTI PVP.. both of those aspects of the game I enjoyed for brief periods of my time here (loved doing foundry quests way back when you got rewards for them, did around 100 or so of the good ones back then, even replayed a couple just for fun)

But it was broken .. and people abused it.

PVP? I played alot between Mods 2-6.. even leveled and geared 2-3 toons that way, did hundreds of matches a month, thousands in a year.. but as the game kept increasing its never ending gear cycle.. I started playing less and less, then Mod 6 hit.. and the changes forced me to make a decision, either play PVE or PVP.. no time for both .. and PVP you earned no AD.. so I quit. I haven't actively done PVP domination matching since that time frame.. I only have ever done some 10 man guants with my former guild for glory or siege when you can still get some rewards (and as if those rewards were soooo broken they had to remove that..)

I do want to disparage any community, this isnt a swipe at pvp players, its simply a discussion.

Considering they do not seem to have the time , to really fix most things in the game as it currently stands, and if you apply the same logic to remove foundry and apply it PVP aspect of the game.

Is PVP the next thing to go?

Will they lose money ? Yes, but they seem to be willing to make that adjustment.. to have a maintenance support staff on hand vs enough devs to fix items. Look at the content they released recently , how much was broken? more then I ever remember since Mod 6, Mod 15 was a disaster, CTA disaster, everything seems to be coded wrong, incorrectly rushed through and with little or no follow up. To me Neverwinter seems to be nothing more, then a way to facilitate funding for other projects.

MOD 16.. is a dumb-ing down of the game.. they are removing so much, because they simply do not have time to fix the stuff , with the massive addons we have through the years.

While I appreciate their honesty, its a stark reminder that no game can go forever (except maybe wow.. even greatly diminished, they are a money churning machine..)

If they cannot support the foundry, what INTRINSICALLY is different about PVP?

That is the question at hand.


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Comments

  • landoras1975landoras1975 Posts: 78Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Lets just hope MOD 16 is not the beginning of the end.
  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 194Member Arc User
    I dunno, I'd think there is an intrinsic difference between the Foundry, which is a Storytelling and Player driven content section, and PVP, which is just allowing players to hit one another.

    The Foundry requires a whole bunch of resources to code and maintain. PVP just requires the game to be balanced. Which is the whole point of Mod 16. Personally, I reckon they should have started a kickstarter to fund the Foundry.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,475Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I don't see them removing PvP. Too integral in the Icewind Pass/Dwarven Valley zones.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • bobo#5090 bobo Posts: 201Member Arc User
    Personally I wouldn't shed a tear over PVP. Waste of time IMHO, and it adds exactly zero to the game for me. It's not a part of core D&D, so I don't do any PVP anyhow.

    As it is I wouldn't mind seeing strongholds go away. Total waste of time IMHO. The only thing that has me doing anything to stay in a stronghold are the boons, and the guild bank. Even the guild bank is worthless to me cuz no one in any guild I've ever been in has explained to me exactly what I have to do to rank up, or how to not run afoul of unwritten rules, to where I suddenly lose privileges. I'm a weekend warrior, I don't play the game for stronghold, pvp, or crafting. I play to wind down after a long week at work, and to relax. I don't have time to spend the small amount of time I do have for the game on things that do not advance the main story, or earn me better gear/ad.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,160Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I think they could easily shift incentives in IWD to just a pve aspect.. alot of it is anyways.

    Again.. its not a swipe at PVP, its more of a discussion of.. CAN this game company as it currently stands, get a handle on it to make it a worthwhile endeavor of their time for profit.

    Right now.. if you apply the foundry principle to pvp.. not sure it is to them.

    Im sure they could SAY it is.. but they said that about the foundry.


  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 673Member Arc User
    I want to support your proposition of removing PvP :)
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,806Member Arc User
    The Foundry requires IIRC a separate server and all assets have to be added to the interface specifically. PVP just requires, well nothing... it's just there. Balancing PvP of course requires dev resources but just having PvP doesn't actually require special knowledge, which seems to be the problem with the Foundry. The people that knew how to maintain it are gone.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,160Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    and yet... its been years since pvp was remotely balanced, so , it is jut a matter they do not have resource allocation for it? If the do not now, do you think they can achieve this in the future?
    My guess is.. well no.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,806Member Arc User
    PVP just chugs along under its own power. Apart from the occasional nerf to some overperforming PVE item, they don't have to do anything with it, to keep it running. It exists on the same server etc... With the foundry, ut seems they have to pull it every new module and tweak something.

    While it may not be good for the players who enjoy PVP, the game mode can just be left alone and still at least run. With the Foundry, it seems that actual attention is required.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 1,213Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 22
    For reasons unbeknownst to me, every Mod seemed to put a spanner in the Foundry in that it needed to be debugged for it to work again. To keep things "fresh" new assets were added (although I don't know when the last time this was, was).

    For PvP, each time a new piece of gear is added, it needs a pass to make sure it isn't overperforming/broken in PvP. Although, this usually required a number of patches after a new Mod was released for it to be fixed in PvP.

    So I suppose if they wanted to do away with having to re-balance items to make sure they aren't overpowered in PvP, they could just remove PvP altogether. There haven't been any new maps since Stronghold, so nothing really requires updating. I think what would happen though, instead of sunsetting PvP, there just would be less incentive to fix overpowered items, and you would just see PvP denigrate into fest of broken items and mechanics which would never get fixed ... we are already a witness to some of this already, with certain mechanics being bugged as hell for God knows how long, with nothing being done about it.

    So perhaps you're right, PvP may be the next to go, and while it won't be as visible as a sunsetting like the Foundry, it will just receive little to no fixes or balancing.

    Which is unfortunate, because PvP is probably the only mode which really makes me upgrade enchantments, buy legendary mounts etc. PvE for me becomes static once you're able to beat the boss/newest dungeon, with no need for growth (I mean, who needs to shave 30s off a run time?), whereas in PvP you are always playing against evolving players. While for PvE you need teamwork against the machine (i.e. AI, in effect, a dead thing), in PvP you need teamwork against another team of players, the pinnacle of complexity. It's a shame that it is so broken and unbalanced that fewer people are able to experience what PvP could be ...
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,093Member Arc User
    Comparing PVP to the foundry is a complete misrepresentation that the two game features were similar in any way. The game only needs to exist to have PVP (whether balanced or not). The foundry requires a lot more to maintain than PVP.

    Your argument also ignores that the Foundry was only ever a thing on PC. Consoles never had it and PVP players there add to the pvp playerbase overall.

    While I personally do not like PVP at all, the entire act of balancing the game should trickle down into PVP by extension.

    And PVP was most likely much more lucrative than the foundry simply because it's available across all platforms versus the PC only foundry.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,160Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Between the OP being released , broken items, gear cycles that were ludicrous ect.. there was so much not fun after mod 6.. for me personally I couldn't do it anymore.

    Dont get me wrong.. pvp was very fun early on in this game and if this game didnt sell power.. I still think it would've remained alot of fun , but alas, they did and it went from r10s to 12s, to 14's , now r15.. with all the flash /bank whatever is hot and broken going forward. I still remember the +4 ring that push everyone back at underdark (probably the very last time I went into a domination match was then.. I left during a match and never returned.. what a malarky pvp has turned into)

    I have little hopes it would return to its glory from mod 1 and 2.. where basically anyone with a set of r8s could play and enter and be ok (a set of r10s vs r8s without all the double slotting we have now and all the artifact equipment and artifacts and ect ect.. was barely noticeable back then)

    While the game made a boatload off all of these items, I wouldnt say anything released brought more "fun" to the game (this applies to pve as well tbh..

    I still am waiting my Artifact weapon set that can "GROW" with me.. as in I dont have to dump it and revamp a new one every 3-4 months.

    Where did that go anyways =P

  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Posts: 338Member Arc User
    PvP may well go away all by itself without the Devs even needing to do anything. Anyone who has tried to queue for SH Siege, Gauntilgrym or even the premade PvP queue these days has found themselves in for a multiple hours long wait. A quick look at the instances in the game shows that at any given time there is maybe 1 or 2 PvP matches in progress. That means 10 or 20 people PvPing out of the thousands playing at any given time, less than 1% of the player base. The Devs could remove PvP at anytime and most people wouldn't even notice ...

    The old argument for keeping PvP was always that PvPers dumped piles of money into the game, but that's just not true any longer. Sure, there are a few BiS PvPers who do dump money into the game, but there are a lot more BiS PvEers who do it. In fact, the tendency of some PvPers to dump staggering amounts of money into their characters to face roll new players is one of the prime reasons few people PvP. Maybe Mod 16 will bring some balance here to PvP by flattening out the gear imbalance and revive PvP a bit, but I'm not particularly optimistic here - if anything I think the new system of competing stats will just produce a never ending arms race in PvP where the average level 80 character will be just as unwelcome and unable to compete as the average level 70 character is in PvP now. Maybe it won't happen immediately, but certainly within a few modules.
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  • dionchidionchi Posts: 589Member Arc User
    It may be with the changes in Mod16, there might actually be some resurgence in interest in PVP... but that remains to be seen.

    Personally I kind of doubt it when you still have players with a lot of boons from thier guild, playing against the guildless or players from lower level guilds without as many boons - regardless of the changes in Mod16.

    But that's just my 2¢
    DD~
  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 1,213Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 22
    dionchi said:

    It may be with the changes in Mod16, there might actually be some resurgence in interest in PVP... but that remains to be seen.

    Personally I kind of doubt it when you still have players with a lot of boons from thier guild, playing against the guildless or players from lower level guilds without as many boons - regardless of the changes in Mod16.

    But that's just my 2¢

    The removal of proc-based boons will help level out the field for sure. Only those who tinkered with the boons to see what effects they had "behind the scenes", so-to-speak, really benefited from it. Some of those boons were very powerful.

    Now the boons in Mod16, although vanilla, are a step in the right direction in narrowing the gap between new players (which are needed for the longevity of the game and PvP) and veterans.

    With the inflation of stats with the new gear (which most players will be able to obtain by the end of the Undermountain compaign), then the Guild Based boons should have a lesser effect than it does now in Mod 15, simply because the Guild Based boons are not increased.

    Making armor/weapon enchantments more equal in terms of function and less strong than they were should also help. Although certain enchantments (I'm looking at you Shadowclad) are still overperforming.

    The only problem which remains as a barrier between veterans and new players alike are the offense/defense enchantments. The difference between R15 and R10 or less is not insignificant. Whether the developers would like to equalise these effects in PvP will remain to be seen (e.g. lessening the gap, but still providing a difference so that there is not a complete loss to those who ranked it up to the max).
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,806Member Arc User
    The biggest impediment to PVP in this game is the studio's unwillingness to treat it as a separate entity. Powers and items need to be balanced differently for each game mode. S long as the cycle of cheese items/powers lasts, there will never be enough people queuing to make proper matchmaking (the other big issue)
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 589Member Arc User
    As I see it, the reason more people don't participate in PVP is no player tends to like repeatedly having their 'culet of three lames' handed to them every time they queue up for PVP and after a time they either buff up (which takes time, money, tenacity, or all three) - or just stops playing - count me among the latter.

    Another reason in my opinion is the character level - item level spread between those allowed into a PVP match was so wide that in the same contest we would see some characters struggling and others more than dominating and whether or not this tended to be a good or a bad thing largely depended on which team a player was on.

    With less disparity between the effectiveness of individual players there might be a resurgence in interest in PVP – absent that disparity override, I predict PVP will remain as it is, something players know about – but most don’t care to participate in more than a couple of times.
    DD~
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Posts: 116Member Arc User
    They need to do a few things to help balance out PvP in this game. Remove the use of any non pvp gear from being used in the match so they don't have to worry about the pve gear getting used in the pvp event. This includes making rings for pvp only. Remove boons from affecting a character in PvP except pvp boons. Remove the Mount insignia's and their bonuses from being used in pvp. Scale down enchantments from rank 15 to rank 10 while on a pvp map. Release new pvp only gear every mod that allows you to do fun things. Sell it in the store where you also give out a starter's pvp gear set. Earn pvp gear through doing pvp in the game. Create a better leader board system that is wiped every new mod as you introduce changes to the pvp equipment allowed. Allow new players to get in with the previous season's best gear as to allow new entry into the scene at the start of each mod.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence (GH20)
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  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,475Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Or just have it be naked PvP with no gear, boons, etc.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 589Member Arc User
    edited March 29
    greywynd said:

    Or just have it be naked PvP with no gear, boons, etc.

    You may have intended your comment to be in jest, but actually that's not a bad idea and as a matter of fact one that I've previously suggested...

    Every player who enters PvP is stripped of their PvE gear, boons, and so forth and outfitted with generic gear that has identical stats regardless of character class...

    Something like...
    • +300 to movement
    • +600 to power
    • +300 to defense
    • +300 to deflection
    Barbarian, Fighter, Mage, Cleric - whatever, the only gear bonus any player gets is the same gear bonus every player has.

    Of course those with higher character levels will have an advantage over those with lower character levels so there shouldn't be any more than 10 character levels difference between players in any given bout... and experience will also be something that will enable an individual player to deal more damage and avoid more damage, but that's something every player will be able to access eventually.

    Yep, everybody who goes into PvP is stripped naked, no (PvE) gear, boons, etc....

    Just tactics, teamwork, tenacity and a little bit of luck from the roll of the game dice.


    DD~
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,475Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    No. Just naked. No gear at all. No boons at all. No tenacity.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 589Member Arc User
    edited March 30
    I count tenacity as a personal trait, not something a person's armor or weapons gives them. How anyone a person's gear gave the wearer tenacity was always a bit beyond me, even if that was one of the attributes some armor was labeled with...

    Tenacity:
    • the quality or fact of being very determined; determination.
    • the quality or fact of continuing to exist; persistence.
    • synonyms: persistence, pertinacity, determination, perseverance, doggedness, tenaciousness, single-mindedness, strength of will, firmness of purpose, strength of purpose, fixity of purpose, bulldog spirit, tirelessness, indefatigability, resolution, resoluteness, resolve, firmness, patience, purposefulness, staunchness, steadfastness, constancy, staying power, application, diligence, assiduity, sedulousness, insistence, relentlessness, inexorability, inexorableness, implacability, inflexibility
    Aside from what appears to be your continued sarcastic response, allowing players to bring their PvE gear, boons and other augmentations into PvP was I believe one of the reasons a lot of players avoid PvP after queuing more than a time or two, because there were always a bunch of greatly augmented players who delighted in handing lower level and lesser equipped player their asses,

    However for some reason few of those heavily buffed players cared to continue to queue for PvP when the only other players queuing for PvP, were other heavily buffed players like themselves... and for some reason it seems every one of them strongly objected to being asked to give up their PvE augmentations to make PvP less one sided.

    At least that's been my casual observation.

    Without some kind of dedicated "fix", like the one I suggested and you disingenuously alluded to, I'm willing to predict PvP will remain much as it is presently something most players will try a time or two, but eventually abandoned because they get tired of repeatedly getting beat down.

    My 2¢
    DD~
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 2,355Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 30
    Pvp's been steadily declining for mods now. This mod the broken TRs were never fixed and it's made pvp pointless, I gave up a couple of weeks ago, which has never happened before.

    This mod's goal seems to be to simplify the combat system, and break party synergy - again to simplify interactions between powers I guess, and make it easy for following developer teams to introduce new content and items without having to debug a whole bunch of occult legacy code. Pvp, if it's on the action-item board at all, is way down the list. Notice the lack of an official feedback thread for pvp this mod.

    It just creates a catch-22, pvp is a bug-ridden, unbalanced mess, so the number of players decreases. Fewer players means less impact on the game as a whole, disincentivising the dev team to prioritize fixes. New content piles up, creating more imbalance, player base decreases again, ad infinitum.

    Implementing a vanilla, naked, version of pvp removes imbalance caused by gear, boons and enchants, but not imbalance caused by broken class mechanics, a naked TR right now would still outperform everyone in the hands of a skilled player. Vanilla pvp would also uterrly de-monetize pvp from the dev's perspective. A new player with a newly rolled and levelled toon would be the same as a dedicated long-term pvp toon. The only differences would be in build, but not much since builds are cookie-cutter now, experience and skill. IMO that's completely ok, but there would be no reason for that pvp toon to have any money spent on it.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • altmerpoweraltmerpower Posts: 40Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Removing PVP from Neverwinter? Yes please! and use the time otherwise spent on that cra.p to make PVE content better instead.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Posts: 3,170Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 30
    Some people just play pve to get gear for pvp. Most of my enchantments were purchased for pvp. And now that tenacity is gone from armors anything goes so to speak.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Posts: 862Member Arc User
    @pitshade the Foundry is not on a separate server and the only "resources" consumed is the manpower to fund it. The Foundry database is a separate database on the same server. When they make minor changes to the main core database, the changes had to be made to the Foundry database as well. That database contains the scripts needed to build and run the Foundry mission.

    For example;

    MapLink
      {
        DoorComponent 16

        DoorMapLocation
        {
          positionX 0.248322
          positionY 0.598393
          Icon Mapicon_Inn_01
        }
        SpawnInternalMapName 448846978 ## This number represents the map I am on in the database.
        InteractText "Enter Shop"
        ReturnText "Mystic Swizzle, Coriol Street"
      }


    If they change the number of any item or map, then the database needs an update as well. Thomas Foss stated in a video interview, a long time ago, that there was no budget for the Foundry. Essentially they were working on it, for free in their spare time. This boils down to having to fund someone at Cryptic to maintain a database. They only own the one server, heaven forbid it crashes for good, as they run all 3 of the PC games, and XB1 and PS4 versions of NW and STO. The games are just contained on different shards of the same server. AFAIK the backups to those games might be on the same server and just another shard. I hope not. That is like all the eggs in the same basket.

    @greywynd Thus there is little to no difference between PvP and the Foundry. PvP can be removed from Icewind Dale as the "red area" in Icewind Pass and Dwarven Valley zones as this is an overlay in the database and not as "hard coded" as one might think. At this point removing PvP would have a negative impact and is not costing them man hours to just ignore it.

    standby.gif
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 2,355Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Having said what I said though, if pvp did disappear, so would I, pve seems pointless without using it to gear my pvp toon, or grind AD to the same end. Pve simply for it's own sake seems to defeat itself. You run a dungeon to get gear you didn't need to complete the dungeon in the first place. Then you whinge about it being to easy, when you've literally been running the dungeon to get the gear that made it too easy in the first place.

    Good pvp'ers are also pretty decent pve'ers by default, but good pve'ers are not necessarily good pvp'ers, and/or avoid it like the plague. This has always been the game's problem. Whilst the pvp crowd understand the problems of pve, and comiserate with them, the pve crowd largely do nothing but denigrate pvp, despite the fact that many people enjoy it.

    Which is unfair.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,475Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    And the vast majority of the attitude the PvE players have towards the PvP players was created by the PvP'rs. "Have you roflstomped anyone lately" seems to be the PvP battle cry.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 2,355Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @greywynd - are you an experienced pvp'er..? I've played pvp since mod2, and what you describe is not general behaviour. If someone is 'roflstompable' they are not worth bragging about.

    If I oneshot godfinder, or manage to kill tery, or blow saber out of the water, then yes, I will type a whole bunch of self-congratulatory HAMSTER in chat, because, whether I like them or not, respect them or not, I do acknowledge they are some of the top pvp toons in the game. But if I shoot some poor guy who declded to queue with 8k gear, then no, I won't. And I don't know anyone left in pvp who would bother either.

    Just stop. I've, by default, been an active part of both communities, pve and pve, for years, unless you can say the same then stop perpetuating the same old bull. Pvp has never had the sheer number of HAMSTER people attribute to it, ok..? What people see now is a very pale reflection of what it used to be, and what it could be again, if, maybe etc.

    We lost a whole lot of dungeons, and the game was poorer for it, we lost gateway, and the game was poorer for it, now we're losing the foundry, and the game will be poorer for it.

    You get the drift I'm sure.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,475Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It isn't bull. It is experience. Both mine and that of a lot of other people. So you're one nice guy in PvP. Among how many other people involved in PvP that maybe have to flop their epeen on the table to prove something?
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
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