I can agree that it's unreasonable for tong groups to force gwf so much. I haven't met a 15-16k gwf who can match my 15k HR dps (combat spec). I even made some duo-dps runs with gwfs and I always beat them, often doubling their dps on paingiver.
But to be honest, if you guys want to run tong and your class is unpopular - make your own que. That's what I'm doing. No one is wanting to take me to their party, so I make my own. I often run with SW, TR, CW - all kinds of combinations. Seriously, make your own que group, that's such a simple solution yet people act like "invite to que" button burns or is toxic. I don't get how people prefer to spam "LFG" for 3 hours on chat instead of making their own group. It was the same with MSVA. No one wanted to start que, all people were spamming LFG. I started que and got my people withing 10-15mins.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I can agree that it's unreasonable for tong groups to force gwf so much.
I tend to agree. I apologize to my GWF friends, but I find that the single most useful class in ToNG is a good OP. Everything else being equal, the OP is what makes the biggest difference between a good run and a not-so-great one.
As far as I am concerned, a good ToNG group is like this:
Primary DPS - can be a GWF or a HR, but a good CW or TR can do this just as well.
OP - someone who understands exactly when to switch powers or loadouts.
DC - for the buffs/debuffs.
second buffer/debuffer. This is typically a second DC or a MoF CW
"any" - I don't really care - extra buffing/tanking/dps can all work, just as long as people know exactly what they are doing.
Another thing I really want to see in a ToNG group is a set of at least 3 different debuff weapon enchants. I normally use a Trans Dread myself, but will switch to Frost if someone else has Dread, and I hope to see Plaguefire, Feytouched and/or Terror in the group, ( and the primary DPS typically with Lightning or Vorpal). If I see something odd, like an AC DC with Lightning it raises a big red flag for me - an indication that someone does not understand his/her role or how to contribute as much as possible to the group.
@c1k4ml3kc3 well I didn't play Neverwinter back then in the old modules. But what you are saying sounds like a lot of fun. Actual synergies between different class powers. I would love to see it coming back as viable options. I would also like to have the sentinal path and the instigator path being back. In todays world with loadouts that could be a lot of fun. Being able to buff like the GF tacticians or have a truly tank build....I am up for it.
I still miss the days in which GFs' ITF buffed for as much as DR they had. Albeit back then they all just screwed power, arp and everything and went 100% defense. 45k defense fully procced is what I remember. 200% buff heyoooo
@c1k4ml3kc3 well I didn't play Neverwinter back then in the old modules. But what you are saying sounds like a lot of fun. Actual synergies between different class powers. I would love to see it coming back as viable options. I would also like to have the sentinal path and the instigator path being back. In todays world with loadouts that could be a lot of fun. Being able to buff like the GF tacticians or have a truly tank build....I am up for it.
I still miss the days in which GFs' ITF buffed for as much as DR they had. Albeit back then they all just screwed power, arp and everything and went 100% defense. 45k defense fully procced is what I remember. 200% buff heyoooo
If you are a GF Tac build your DR increases your ability to produce AP, so for Tac build having a higher DR can help but not like it did for ITF a bit over a year ago now.
@schietindebux you are saying GWF have tanky tools. Well build a GWF tank and go tanking T2 dungeons. You will realize that "spoken in pictures", your tanky tools are forks and knifes but you are trying to eat a soup. And there is no spoon in your toolbox.
I allready did this 3 mods ago with ugly gear as a Sentinel IV. CN (before nerf), eToS etc, 2.6 IL that time. As long as you run beside equally geared player you can tank everything up T2 at that IL. But it is a lackluster-build, since noone wants to run beside you, kicks you or simply leaves without a comment. Same behaviour we recognize towards some other classes and trees atm. And you are completely lost with the new queue system, no clue if GWF/sentinel is considered as a tank by that system. No clue what an endgeared Sentinel will look like, but as someone mentioned the inability to generate determination dealing damage is a bigger problem.
Honestly I don´t know, if Intimidation was allways like this: Daring Shout and Come and Get It now deal 25/50/75/100/125% of your weapon damage, and generates twice that value as threat. In addition, affected become Intimidated and all of your attacks build 100/200/300/400/500% more threat against them.
The moment you have to handle one high dps like a GWF using spots/mark on top you lose aggro pretty fast, Hunter also uses mark and you lose aggro. Anyway, in every group that is runnnig a Yeti, Dancing Shield or any other tanking pet (Yeti is the worst imo), the tank loses aggro to that pet repeatedly, since those companions spot, leading to annoying onehits the moment Ras Ni turns arround. Beside that a GWF at higher gear is able to pretty much tank any content running a Destroyer spec, as long he is ahead in dps. As said, no clue if anyone run Tong without a tank but maybe youtube knows the answer.
@schietindebux you are saying GWF have tanky tools. Well build a GWF tank and go tanking T2 dungeons. You will realize that "spoken in pictures", your tanky tools are forks and knifes but you are trying to eat a soup. And there is no spoon in your toolbox.
I allready did this 3 mods ago with ugly gear as a Sentinel IV. CN (before nerf), eToS etc, 2.6 IL that time. As long as you run beside equally geared player you can tank everything up T2 at that IL. But it is a lackluster-build, since noone wants to run beside you, kicks you or simply leaves without a comment. Same behaviour we recognize towards some other classes and trees atm. And you are completely lost with the new queue system, no clue if GWF/sentinel is considered as a tank by that system. No clue what an endgeared Sentinel will look like, but as someone mentioned the inability to generate determination dealing damage is a bigger problem.
Honestly I don´t know, if Intimidation was allways like this: Daring Shout and Come and Get It now deal 25/50/75/100/125% of your weapon damage, and generates twice that value as threat. In addition, affected become Intimidated and all of your attacks build 100/200/300/400/500% more threat against them.
The moment you have to handle one high dps like a GWF using spots/mark on top you lose aggro pretty fast, Hunter also uses mark and you lose aggro. Anyway, in every group that is runnnig a Yeti, Dancing Shield or any other tanking pet (Yeti is the worst imo), the tank loses aggro to that pet repeatedly, since those companions spot, leading to annoying onehits the moment Ras Ni turns arround. Beside that a GWF at higher gear is able to pretty much tank any content running a Destroyer spec, as long he is ahead in dps. As said, no clue if anyone run Tong without a tank but maybe youtube knows the answer.
If you want to get technical, there were two full DC teams with Tomb completions...
Still silly posts about GWF Tanks? I hope no one will post old GWF "Tank" builds from someone who "tanked" eTos with a GWF "Tank" build... BTW: Can anyone post me an actual complete FBI run where a GWF tanks and there is no other tank/op in the group? Thx a lot.
I did FBI on my GWF and we were 4 manning it on top for fun now at mod12b, since the OP got dced and we were waiting for him. Ended up doing the entire run with me on GWF being main DPS and tank, with 2 dc and a MoF, but I have to say this.
Its the DCs and the MoF (RoE and frost reducing damage from boss) that made me tank and not me as gwf. I doubt (unless going to extreme with stones and scrolls etc) that specially in this module there will be someone that can SOLO tank turtle or Hati. Even if they do though it proves nothing much . I'm sure others did too in similar situations.
The role of the tank is not only to take damage but to handle aggro and help with buffs or damage mitigation if the team needs. Something a gwf cant do. Unless we have bubble or KV and aura of courage or ITF....
Also to my knowledge, Mark has changed 2 modules (or more) ago and doesn't generate threat from gwf anymore. Its just a mark for buff purposes and reduced damage from marked targets under conditions.
@schietindebux Concerning the build you posted, he is using Ferocious reaction, a talent that triggers every 90 seconds and he suggest sprinting out of the red AoE.....how is that tanking. You said you have GWF and did it before. Why don't you do it again and show us in FBI, mSP or ToNG. Do it and go in as the only tank and post the vids and I will shut up.
PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
@schietindebux Concerning the build you posted, he is using Ferocious reaction, a talent that triggers every 90 seconds and he suggest sprinting out of the red AoE.....how is that tanking. You said you have GWF and did it before. Why don't you do it again and show us in FBI, mSP or ToNG. Do it and go in as the only tank and post the vids and I will shut up.
I used a free spec in mod 8 or 9, took some tanking skills and run T2 + CN. My GWF is by no means even near BIS, so maybe you understand why I can´t run T2.5 or Tong. I never said a GWF is a competetive tank compared to a GF or OP. The class has tools and a tree that underperforms. Maybe spec yourself a sentinel and test it, since that´s what about 95% of the forum warrior never did, iI did so. If you want to discuss anything, get a basis to discuss instead of simply repeat stuff otherones write in threads. And no ,the build I linked only points at someone who intend to run a GWF tank. I simply picked some other feats without even looking for a tank setup/build. My Encounter were like DS+FLS + x, clasfeatureweaponmaster+ guess i picked bravery, and high deflect/LS for sure Last comment in this topic. This threat is about classbalance, about design of a dungeon and about the fact some classes are favoured compared to others. Again, for the ones that have issues to understand the point.
Tong= GF-DC-OP-GWF Classes with most mitigation tools/defense/buffs, paired with the class that provides high tankyness and dps at once.
And again once more, the threat is unnecessary , since veryone allready knows whats going on, even the company itself I am sure.
Maybe spec yourself a sentinel and test it, since that´s what about 95% of the forum warrior never did, iI did so.
I speced a sentinel + valhalla + all i can get in def artefacts/gear/boons/enchants. I made a group with a heal ( u know...im a tank...i only need some heals from time to time) and we tried FBI hill to the first boss. Ok...mabye i was undergeared with 17,5k iLevel...so i died instantly in the first group...and i died...and i died...and i died.. i died so many times that i quitted trying FBI. Mobs i killed = 2. I got killed by mobs = 15 times. So im begging you: Tell me why i cant tank FBI and why i cant kill any mobs in FBI when i play a senti GWF? Can you show me that with your tank GWF, how to do it? I will bring a DC and we can run FBI together, so i can learn and see how awesome a GWF tank can be. Thx a lot. After you wrote you speced a "tank" GWF in mod 8 or 9: This is ur experience with GWF "tanks"? All that wrong stuff you wrote bc you speced a senti GWF in mod 8 or 9??
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dravendrow76Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 38Arc User
seriously??? OP =limited to a view people.... and we discuss about GWFtank????
I can agree that it's unreasonable for tong groups to force gwf so much. I haven't met a 15-16k gwf who can match my 15k HR dps (combat spec). I even made some duo-dps runs with gwfs and I always beat them, often doubling their dps on paingiver.
But to be honest, if you guys want to run tong and your class is unpopular - make your own que. That's what I'm doing. No one is wanting to take me to their party, so I make my own. I often run with SW, TR, CW - all kinds of combinations. Seriously, make your own que group, that's such a simple solution yet people act like "invite to que" button burns or is toxic. I don't get how people prefer to spam "LFG" for 3 hours on chat instead of making their own group. It was the same with MSVA. No one wanted to start que, all people were spamming LFG. I started que and got my people withing 10-15mins.
Perhaps you're missing the point of this. It is as this :
LFG usually does call for the best team compositions for the sake of beating it up fast. There you may see the meta most of the times, especially if it runs for some time now.
The reason why people argue here is not that they can't get into the LFG, since most of the people wouldn't want to deal with pugs anyway, but instead to mention it as a very unbalanced concept.
You may beat it with each class separately, but that makes for an uneven experience. Going without a DC is practically messing your run in the start. So that alone is the first unbalanced thing. Nobody should be forced to run with a DC only in order to get a smoother run, yet this concept was forced on the playerbase circa MOD6 when the Pots lost much of their previous value.
The Call for the DC was in order to mostly heal, yet the changes down the lane made it possible for the DCs to be a powerhouse which adds a lot (A LOT) of power to the groups. The devs are trying all they can in order to make a DC a valuable class and imho DC is the most valuable class you can get. I'd even argue that it has better chances of dropping legendaries when compared to other classes, but I might be paranoid there. I think very highly of the DC, but on another hand I dislike that the playerbase is forcefed with the necessity for the DC as well as a Tanky class.
In DnD games you never really need a tank or a healer in order to run your dungeons, but here you are forced.
Imagine in DnD that you can't play a board game unless you have a friend DC and a friend GF/OP/GWF, how bad would that be?
TBH I'm still looking for just how long this whole "DC is a must" agenda will last. I grew weary of it.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
The real isse is with Double Deuce, I mean 2 DCs. It limits the availability of so many more classes getting a shot in party. Frankly, I hate standing around at the guild waiting for yet a second DC to log on before we can run TONG. We've successfully run it fine with only one. And people are too concerned with it taking 25 minutes over 35. If it isn't fun, don't run it at all!
The real isse is with Double Deuce, I mean 2 DCs. It limits the availability of so many more classes getting a shot in party. Frankly, I hate standing around at the guild waiting for yet a second DC to log on before we can run TONG. We've successfully run it fine with only one. And people are too concerned with it taking 25 minutes over 35. If it isn't fun, don't run it at all!
The second DC buff outweigh another DPS damage or another buffer ability to buff the group; this is a community mindset. In other games players forgo more support for more DPS because in other games buff and debuff cannot stack and healing is so strong that in large parties you typically only need 1 healer where 2 is balanced. The reason MMO LFG is often calling for imbalanced groups is that the devs do not have an answer to solve the problem
I don't mind that most groups run with two buffer the issue I see is that most groups run with 2 DC and a third buffer with only 1 DPS. If groups were running more with 2 buffers a tank and 2 DPS it wouldn't be as bad.
Balance can happen but if the devs go to much one way or another we will probably see DPS over a buffer; meaning 1 tank and 4 DPS.
There are many solutions available and some are not as good as others. The one I personally like best is re-organizing the roles and creating a CONTROLLER role that is designed for buffing. The classes that would fall into this role would be GF, DC, CW, HR, and TR.
The update would adjust how much buffing a healer/tank could provide and enhance or leave as is the buffing capabilities of the classes when setup into the correct paragon path and feat path.
With this update the GWF class would receive either a buff role or a tank role where the GWF can actually tank. SW would be updated to a healer or buffer role and could que into content as a healer or buffer (depending how the devs want to proceed).
This would give the game 3 tanks, 3 healer, and 5 - 7 buffer along with all the current DPS builds.
The update would keep the private que as is but when you do a non-private que at the end of the dungeon there will be a special chest contain a unique award that is only available for non-prive ques. This encourages players to run non-private with a balance group of a tank, healer, buffer and two DPS.
A quicker option I already mention is remove the private que and now you are force to go with 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DPS where a few of them can run as a buffer, I simply recommended this as it is probably the easiest for the dev to implement.
Another option is a full game revamp, the one I really would like to see the devs do. This would bring about more class balance for the DPS, full out each class to have two roles, maybe add another class to the game (Bard or Druid), etc... This IMO is the way to go long term as the devs could really improve the game and make it so that one shots are a thing of the past and balance groups are the norm with no major complaints about this class is OP in any type of content, PVE or PVP.
The other options include balancing out the DPS side of the game and I'm not sure if that is the best solution given that groups are running with 1 tank, 3 buffer and 1 DPS. Even if a SW, CW and TR could produce like or even more damage than say a GWF or a HR the imbalance groups issue won't go away. REVAMP would be the best way to go long term but if the dev want to do short my recommendation is update the game to add a role and award teams at the end that complete content with the updated group make up.
Maybe spec yourself a sentinel and test it, since that´s what about 95% of the forum warrior never did, iI did so.
I speced a sentinel + valhalla + all i can get in def artefacts/gear/boons/enchants. I made a group with a heal ( u know...im a tank...i only need some heals from time to time) and we tried FBI hill to the first boss. Ok...mabye i was undergeared with 17,5k iLevel...so i died instantly in the first group...and i died...and i died...and i died.. i died so many times that i quitted trying FBI. Mobs i killed = 2. I got killed by mobs = 15 times. So im begging you: Tell me why i cant tank FBI and why i cant kill any mobs in FBI when i play a senti GWF? Can you show me that with your tank GWF, how to do it? I will bring a DC and we can run FBI together, so i can learn and see how awesome a GWF tank can be. Thx a lot. After you wrote you speced a "tank" GWF in mod 8 or 9: This is ur experience with GWF "tanks"? All that wrong stuff you wrote bc you speced a senti GWF in mod 8 or 9??
Hm, beside the fact that you can´t do what otherones did with your class as a duo with less gear and >one year ago, what changes exactly were made to the class, that change the setup that much? It´s the same rotations and same setups/feats and the same points you have to spend. And please read carefully, my GWF is on the level of several mods ago, the gear and boons simply miss. Anyway, even running with my GF uphill, all I do is kite mobs and avoid red zones, that´s what every class does , except an OP... it´s about footwork and mobility imo. I pretty much think we should end this discussion, since I allready know where you come from. The essence of what you write all time is: "My GWF is not tanky enough, dead all time and deals no damage at all". I got it.
There are many solutions available and some are not as good as others. The one I personally like best is re-organizing the roles and creating a CONTROLLER role that is designed for buffing. The classes that would fall into this role would be GF, DC, CW, HR, and TR.
I've thought of this too and think it makes insanely good sense. My thinking was creating a "Support" role that would make room for an extra tank or healer and that would also include MoF and/or Renegade CWs, Temptation SWs, Bards, Druids, etc. More support oriented feat paths could be added to other classes too like the original Nature path for HRs. They can already define role by paragon path (OPs), they could add another check based on feat path capstone.
The other approach which you mentioned (buffs don't stack) is another option, but would require MASSIVE re-tooling of the game's difficulty. You could break buffs into offensive and defensive and break debuffs into offensive and defensive. In each of these 4 categories, only the biggest modifier applies, no more stacking, no adding, no multiplying. Also probably eliminate stat sharing as a mechanic altogether and convert them all into flat buffs like they did with GF's Into the Fray long ago. Of course in dungeons and BHEs, enemies would have to be scaled WAAAAAY back and several weapon enchants would need to be changed too. It's such a big mess that, yeah, I don't really see all that happening, though it would probably be the best long-term solution.
I pretty much think we should end this discussion, since I allready know where you come from. The essence of what you write all time is: "My GWF is not tanky enough, dead all time and deals no damage at all". I got it.
Yes. We should end this. The essence of your posts: "I got my experience from a toon 3 mods ago, so i got no clue what im talking but this class needs a nerf anyways. Just because i think its to op and just because i never cant do any good DPS." I got it.
I pretty much think we should end this discussion, since I allready know where you come from. The essence of what you write all time is: "My GWF is not tanky enough, dead all time and deals no damage at all". I got it.
Yes. We should end this. The essence of your posts: "I got my experience from a toon 3 mods ago, so i got no clue what im talking but this class needs a nerf anyways. Just because i think its to op and just because i never cant do any good DPS." I got it.
Anyway, even running with my GF uphill, all I do is kite mobs
You must be tho one....
I'd love to see any of the people here tank with a GWF. As someone who mains one, and has plenty of hours into the game, I can assure you that having feats that supposedly increase your DR means nothing. I've attempted to run as a sentinel/destroyer hybrid a few months ago on preview. Went all defense+health+lifesteal, and it just doesn't work. The last feat in sentinel path doesn't work, you don't generate enough threat because with pure sentinel you gain determination via damage, and to do damage, you need unstoppable, and to go unstoppable you need to take damage, for which you need aggro. It just doesn't work.
Anyways, it really baffles me how people think we can tank stuff. I soloed ELOL a few days ago, and do you know how I sustained my health up? Lifesteal. Lostmauth would almost one-shot me through unstoppable, slam AND daring shout. So yeah, it's not as nice as you think. We survive in TONG because we run with a lot of supports. 2 DCs and everyone's golden.
I pretty much think we should end this discussion, since I allready know where you come from. The essence of what you write all time is: "My GWF is not tanky enough, dead all time and deals no damage at all". I got it.
Yes. We should end this. The essence of your posts: "I got my experience from a toon 3 mods ago, so i got no clue what im talking but this class needs a nerf anyways. Just because i think its to op and just because i never cant do any good DPS." I got it.
Anyway, even running with my GF uphill, all I do is kite mobs
You must be tho one....
I'd love to see any of the people here tank with a GWF. As someone who mains one, and has plenty of hours into the game, I can assure you that having feats that supposedly increase your DR means nothing. I've attempted to run as a sentinel/destroyer hybrid a few months ago on preview. Went all defense+health+lifesteal, and it just doesn't work. The last feat in sentinel path doesn't work, you don't generate enough threat because with pure sentinel you gain determination via damage, and to do damage, you need unstoppable, and to go unstoppable you need to take damage, for which you need aggro. It just doesn't work.
Anyways, it really baffles me how people think we can tank stuff. I soloed ELOL a few days ago, and do you know how I sustained my health up? Lifesteal. Lostmauth would almost one-shot me through unstoppable, slam AND daring shout. So yeah, it's not as nice as you think. We survive in TONG because we run with a lot of supports. 2 DCs and everyone's golden.
Exactly, Destroyer is the better tank, and that´s what several GWF´s showed on youtube facetanking bosses (duo FBI >1year ago etc.). I never advised anyone to run a sentinel GWF, since it underperforms. Somone asked me to run T2 as a sentinel, I told him I allready did with HAMSTER gear and that spec is able to tank T2, CN, aggromanagement works to some degree but you have issues with some classes and mark. Simply read what I wrote. If someone askes me if GWF can tank I would tell him, "Yes he can, grab some supporter and run what you like as main dps, you need some gear and be able to deal damage". Capstone is a near 24/7 30% mitigation with 30% temp- HP buff, armor specialisation is tank feature with 15% + benefit from defense/AC. With decent deflect and LS you will do fine. And sure, LS is needed to solo content, that´s what all classes beside a healer will need to succeed, exept a Pally, that obviously can do all at once. I don´t care at all if forum GWF´s deny to be tanky or unable to facetank bosses in NWO (I saw enough doing so ingame), telling me every striker can do same as GWF at DR cap, they seem to suffer from partial blindness. You can read through threats , where player ask for a dodge or a block (or both) for GWF, most of them in the PVP section. The class allready outperforms other striker in terms of dps, tankyness and mobility, same as immunity to cc. What will happen if a clueless dev adds a block or a dodge on top?
Few sentences. 1. This is first game where we go with 4 supports on 5 ppl dungeon - first game rly 2. Balance no exist. 3. Instead of going forward we back nerf bondings to have previous statistics we have to "get" them again - this is cost a millions or we must farm tong all days. 4. The economy of the game went to the dogs, everything spoiled the lockboxes and drop, where we will get an orcus artifact on valindra 5. GWF is overpower - everything works on it, every charm, every feat gives a bonus to damage, unearthly scaling of statistics, tab stopping cc.
Own observation - the creators of the game are lazy, do not test do not check. Half the things do not even know how it works. I'm surprised that this game is still working.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Few sentences. 1. This is first game where we go with 4 supports on 5 ppl dungeon - first game rly 2. Balance no exist. 3. Instead of going forward we back nerf bondings to have previous statistics we have to "get" them again - this is cost a millions or we must farm tong all days. 4. The economy of the game went to the dogs, everything spoiled the lockboxes and drop, where we will get an orcus artifact on valindra 5. GWF is overpower - everything works on it, every charm, every feat gives a bonus to damage, unearthly scaling of statistics, tab stopping cc.
Own observation - the creators of the game are lazy, do not test do not check. Half the things do not even know how it works. I'm surprised that this game is still working.
I agreed with you up until 5. As for GWF, let me throw some random feats on your alt and let's see where he gets. An amazing amount of feats don't work--which is why all GWFs run with the same ones. GWFs could use some buffing along with all that nerfing everyone is so happy to discuss.
I had a GF matching my damage in TONG day before yesterday, in two 2 DPS runs.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I've been reading the whole thread for a while but there's something that isn't clear for me. When you guys speak about the GWF being 'tank', is it because the class can solo some dungeons or because you can take 2 DC and finish any dungeon without GF/OP?
In the first scenario, there are many classes that are able to solo easily the whole content in t1/t2 dungeons, I keep seeing SW, CW, HR, DC, etc saying LF4M X dungeon final boss so even if they have died a few times through the dungeons they have done it by themselves.
In the second one, are you really a tank when there are 2 DC always on top on you casting AA + Exaltation + AS + HG and any other skill power? because under this context, every DPS class with 2 DC can 'tank' easily MSP, FBI, etc.
Specifically talking about T9G, the OP is there mostly for power-sharing but the class isn't usually using defensive tools in order to protect others besides keeping the enemy's attention and when you go there with a GF the only time they help others to survive is when Knight's Challenge is being used reducing 50% of the incoming damage for party members, however, the GF is receiving double damage and despite that the class is able to sustain that damage (Talking about a DPS GF ofc, the optimal choice). The point is that the content keeps moving forward to a game where buffs/debuffs are far more important than anything else which will make EVERY class a 'tank' as long as you have the right supports. You can keep going with your vendetta against the GWF for being 'tanky' but that's just a consequence of the power creep that is infesting Neverwinter. Weaken the class and that won't solve anything because in the future we will see the same thread about another class. Instead, spend your time asking to the devs for content where you truly need a tank using defensive skills.
I've been reading the whole thread for a while but there's something that isn't clear for me. When you guys speak about the GWF being 'tank', is it because the class can solo some dungeons or because you can take 2 DC and finish any dungeon without GF/OP?
In the first scenario, there are many classes that are able to solo easily the whole content in t1/t2 dungeons, I keep seeing SW, CW, HR, DC, etc saying LF4M X dungeon final boss so even if they have died a few times through the dungeons they have done it by themselves.
In the second one, are you really a tank when there are 2 DC always on top on you casting AA + Exaltation + AS + HG and any other skill power? because under this context, every DPS class with 2 DC can 'tank' easily MSP, FBI, etc.
Specifically talking about T9G, the OP is there mostly for power-sharing but the class isn't usually using defensive tools in order to protect others besides keeping the enemy's attention and when you go there with a GF the only time they help others to survive is when Knight's Challenge is being used reducing 50% of the incoming damage for party members, however, the GF is receiving double damage and despite that the class is able to sustain that damage (Talking about a DPS GF ofc, the optimal choice). The point is that the content keeps moving forward to a game where buffs/debuffs are far more important than anything else which will make EVERY class a 'tank' as long as you have the right supports. You can keep going with your vendetta against the GWF for being 'tanky' but that's just a consequence of the power creep that is infesting Neverwinter. Weaken the class and that won't solve anything because in the future we will see the same thread about another class. Instead, spend your time asking to the devs for content where you truly need a tank using defensive skills.
Exactly. All of these late-game dungeons are just massive DPS tests. You don't make a dungeon hard by making enemies have 38 billion health. MSP 2nd boss is a truly hard boss. Because it has mechanics, and while DPS is important, you have to have a tank to take the damage if it gets all 5 stacks of buffs, a DC to heal in case you get stunned, buffs and debuffs so you can actually finish it quick enough and so on. But TONG is just DPS, DPS, DP HAMSTER S.
And that's why you have the infestation of OPs and DCs in TONG. Because they can turn any 13-14k DPS into a DPS carry god. But it's required, how tf would you else finish the dungeon. After all, it IS a DPS test as I said. The 1st boss has over 1b health.
And that's why you have the infestation of OPs and DCs in TONG. Because they can turn any 13-14k DPS into a DPS carry god. But it's required, how tf would you else finish the dungeon.
I've been reading the whole thread for a while but there's something that isn't clear for me. When you guys speak about the GWF being 'tank', is it because the class can solo some dungeons or because you can take 2 DC and finish any dungeon without GF/OP?
In the first scenario, there are many classes that are able to solo easily the whole content in t1/t2 dungeons, I keep seeing SW, CW, HR, DC, etc saying LF4M X dungeon final boss so even if they have died a few times through the dungeons they have done it by themselves.
In the second one, are you really a tank when there are 2 DC always on top on you casting AA + Exaltation + AS + HG and any other skill power? because under this context, every DPS class with 2 DC can 'tank' easily MSP, FBI, etc.
Specifically talking about T9G, the OP is there mostly for power-sharing but the class isn't usually using defensive tools in order to protect others besides keeping the enemy's attention and when you go there with a GF the only time they help others to survive is when Knight's Challenge is being used reducing 50% of the incoming damage for party members, however, the GF is receiving double damage and despite that the class is able to sustain that damage (Talking about a DPS GF ofc, the optimal choice). The point is that the content keeps moving forward to a game where buffs/debuffs are far more important than anything else which will make EVERY class a 'tank' as long as you have the right supports. You can keep going with your vendetta against the GWF for being 'tanky' but that's just a consequence of the power creep that is infesting Neverwinter. Weaken the class and that won't solve anything because in the future we will see the same thread about another class. Instead, spend your time asking to the devs for content where you truly need a tank using defensive skills.
Exactly. All of these late-game dungeons are just massive DPS tests. You don't make a dungeon hard by making enemies have 38 billion health. MSP 2nd boss is a truly hard boss. Because it has mechanics, and while DPS is important, you have to have a tank to take the damage if it gets all 5 stacks of buffs, a DC to heal in case you get stunned, buffs and debuffs so you can actually finish it quick enough and so on. But TONG is just DPS, DPS, DP HAMSTER S.
And that's why you have the infestation of OPs and DCs in TONG. Because they can turn any 13-14k DPS into a DPS carry god. But it's required, how tf would you else finish the dungeon. After all, it IS a DPS test as I said. The 1st boss has over 1b health.
Except for the soul mechanic at the last boss, there is no part of tong that can be called a DPS race. All the bosses are mechanics based, it is just that it is far easier for groups to do excessive damage and ignore mechanics then it is to do mechanics.
First boss -> hp curse gives 1900% of actual HP as temp hp, if a player with say 200k hp takes it, they will have 3.8M temp hp. Every time they walk into the ball, 100k is removed, so, just starting off, you have enough temp hp to run into 38 balls. Sometimes it bugs and removes more than 100k, however if you dodge into a ball when you are consuming it, the iframe can actually prevent you from losing any temp hp at all, so dodge into every ball. Shielded HP is removed before temp hp. In a slow group, an OP can use skills like absolution on whoever has the temp hp buff, which will be removed before the temp hp. Alternatively, if you have lion, you can lion before you run into balls. Flat mitigation occurs before temp hp as well, so barkshield will also mitigate ball damage. Multiplicative DR layers also occur before the damage, so if a GF has it, they can shift to reduce the damage by 80%. Finally, as a last resort, an OP can take the temp hp buff and refresh it indefinitely with templar's wrath. Any combination of these tactics will basically ensure success, you can even 2 man orcus using a combination of these tactics and a patient OP can probably solo it.
2nd boss has a lot of mechanics but honestly, any group that can do the mechanics for this boss properly, can burst it anyhow, so there is no point describing them.
3rd boss is all about not standing in red or behind the tank and killing souls when they spawn.
The point is, the only reason people think of tong as a dps race is because its easier to dps race it then to do mechanics, not because it doesn't have mechanics.
This threat is not about one class by sure. Buffs/supporter are the bigger problem in this game since long. If 50% of all player run a GWF as their prefered striker and the relation, regarding endcontent, is 1:10 compared to other striker, and the main reason why it is like that is negated all the time, there obviously is some kind of hypocracy involved. Those ones who main a GWF don´t even admit any kind of balance issues maybe due to their perception of the game. The arguments I recognize sometimes are like: " I met a TR (GF, Hunter etc.) that doubled my dps, so we do not have any balance problems" "Let it be, play the next fotm class"
I know myself, this game and especially the devs in this game don´t have any time, menpower or even knoweledge to solve the puzzle. So if things get touched it may destroy a lot. Maybe this company has bigger plans by deminishing the dev step by step over the years, I don´t know. But a discussion has to be open and not simply suppressd by tons of player who fear to lose a piece of cake.
The fact that class variety vanished in one mod and the fact that endcontent is farmed by few classes lead to an obvious escape by lot´s of player. The fact that you read 24/7 same BS in chat : "Lfm OP-DC-DC- lololo" and the fact that some player simply stop runnning with ingame friends due to class disbalance, same as the fact that you do not get an answer because you dare to run an "anticlass" is a big issue in my eyes. But if you run 24/7 one class you might not be able to understand any of this PVP has same issues since long, allmighty GF for ages, undying DC for many many mods. Atm it´s the annyoing " SoD-autospam-TR" that is the dominant class... and even following those threats you find a lot of player that defend it telling others to count till 6 or learn to avoid the autoproc. I can´t even say it kills PVP, since it´s allready dead for long.
Facts for mod 12/12b are: DC is the dominant class. OP and DC are the best supporter ingame. OP seems to be the only viable tank at endgame, according the request in chat GWF is the dominat striker in mod 12. GF seems to be the most requested 3. supporter, overrepresented in my eyes.
And again a "interesting" post....for someone who tells its not about one class i am surprised that you recognize answers i never saw or heard of. I recognized things like "we want balancing, but claiming for a nerf isnt a way to balance anything", or "some classes like SWs need a push", or "a TR must be the best single target DPS class, but atm its a DPS GF"... There is really some hate against one particular class. Thats more than obvious.
Comments
I can agree that it's unreasonable for tong groups to force gwf so much. I haven't met a 15-16k gwf who can match my 15k HR dps (combat spec). I even made some duo-dps runs with gwfs and I always beat them, often doubling their dps on paingiver.
But to be honest, if you guys want to run tong and your class is unpopular - make your own que. That's what I'm doing. No one is wanting to take me to their party, so I make my own. I often run with SW, TR, CW - all kinds of combinations. Seriously, make your own que group, that's such a simple solution yet people act like "invite to que" button burns or is toxic. I don't get how people prefer to spam "LFG" for 3 hours on chat instead of making their own group. It was the same with MSVA. No one wanted to start que, all people were spamming LFG. I started que and got my people withing 10-15mins.
As far as I am concerned, a good ToNG group is like this:
- Primary DPS - can be a GWF or a HR, but a good CW or TR can do this just as well.
- OP - someone who understands exactly when to switch powers or loadouts.
- DC - for the buffs/debuffs.
- second buffer/debuffer. This is typically a second DC or a MoF CW
- "any" - I don't really care - extra buffing/tanking/dps can all work, just as long as people know exactly what they are doing.
Another thing I really want to see in a ToNG group is a set of at least 3 different debuff weapon enchants. I normally use a Trans Dread myself, but will switch to Frost if someone else has Dread, and I hope to see Plaguefire, Feytouched and/or Terror in the group, ( and the primary DPS typically with Lightning or Vorpal). If I see something odd, like an AC DC with Lightning it raises a big red flag for me - an indication that someone does not understand his/her role or how to contribute as much as possible to the group.As long as you run beside equally geared player you can tank everything up T2 at that IL. But it is a lackluster-build, since noone wants to run beside you, kicks you or simply leaves without a comment. Same behaviour we recognize towards some other classes and trees atm. And you are completely lost with the new queue system, no clue if GWF/sentinel is considered as a tank by that system.
No clue what an endgeared Sentinel will look like, but as someone mentioned the inability to generate determination dealing damage is a bigger problem.
Honestly I don´t know, if Intimidation was allways like this: Daring Shout and Come and Get It now deal 25/50/75/100/125% of your weapon damage, and generates twice that value as threat. In addition, affected become Intimidated and all of your attacks build 100/200/300/400/500% more threat against them.
Here someone that claims to tank with his build, I doubt he will have much support outside his guild: http://mmominds.com/2017/06/04/gwf-iron-vanguard-sentinel-zerktank-mod-11/
The moment you have to handle one high dps like a GWF using spots/mark on top you lose aggro pretty fast, Hunter also uses mark and you lose aggro.
Anyway, in every group that is runnnig a Yeti, Dancing Shield or any other tanking pet (Yeti is the worst imo), the tank loses aggro to that pet repeatedly, since those companions spot, leading to annoying onehits the moment Ras Ni turns arround.
Beside that a GWF at higher gear is able to pretty much tank any content running a Destroyer spec, as long he is ahead in dps.
As said, no clue if anyone run Tong without a tank but maybe youtube knows the answer.
BTW:
Can anyone post me an actual complete FBI run where a GWF tanks and there is no other tank/op in the group? Thx a lot.
Its the DCs and the MoF (RoE and frost reducing damage from boss) that made me tank and not me as gwf. I doubt (unless going to extreme with stones and scrolls etc) that specially in this module there will be someone that can SOLO tank turtle or Hati. Even if they do though it proves nothing much . I'm sure others did too in similar situations.
The role of the tank is not only to take damage but to handle aggro and help with buffs or damage mitigation if the team needs. Something a gwf cant do. Unless we have bubble or KV and aura of courage or ITF....
Also to my knowledge, Mark has changed 2 modules (or more) ago and doesn't generate threat from gwf anymore. Its just a mark for buff purposes and reduced damage from marked targets under conditions.
You said you have GWF and did it before. Why don't you do it again and show us in FBI, mSP or ToNG. Do it and go in as the only tank and post the vids and I will shut up.
I never said a GWF is a competetive tank compared to a GF or OP. The class has tools and a tree that underperforms.
Maybe spec yourself a sentinel and test it, since that´s what about 95% of the forum warrior never did, iI did so.
If you want to discuss anything, get a basis to discuss instead of simply repeat stuff otherones write in threads.
And no ,the build I linked only points at someone who intend to run a GWF tank. I simply picked some other feats without even looking for a tank setup/build.
My Encounter were like DS+FLS + x, clasfeatureweaponmaster+ guess i picked bravery, and high deflect/LS for sure
Last comment in this topic. This threat is about classbalance, about design of a dungeon and about the fact some classes are favoured compared to others.
Again, for the ones that have issues to understand the point.
Tong= GF-DC-OP-GWF
Classes with most mitigation tools/defense/buffs, paired with the class that provides high tankyness and dps at once.
And again once more, the threat is unnecessary , since veryone allready knows whats going on, even the company itself I am sure.
I made a group with a heal ( u know...im a tank...i only need some heals from time to time) and we tried FBI hill to the first boss. Ok...mabye i was undergeared with 17,5k iLevel...so i died instantly in the first group...and i died...and i died...and i died.. i died so many times that i quitted trying FBI. Mobs i killed = 2. I got killed by mobs = 15 times.
So im begging you:
Tell me why i cant tank FBI and why i cant kill any mobs in FBI when i play a senti GWF? Can you show me that with your tank GWF, how to do it? I will bring a DC and we can run FBI together, so i can learn and see how awesome a GWF tank can be. Thx a lot.
After you wrote you speced a "tank" GWF in mod 8 or 9: This is ur experience with GWF "tanks"? All that wrong stuff you wrote bc you speced a senti GWF in mod 8 or 9??
and we discuss about GWFtank????
are you bored so much??? go out met girls^^
LFG usually does call for the best team compositions for the sake of beating it up fast. There you may see the meta most of the times, especially if it runs for some time now.
The reason why people argue here is not that they can't get into the LFG, since most of the people wouldn't want to deal with pugs anyway, but instead to mention it as a very unbalanced concept.
You may beat it with each class separately, but that makes for an uneven experience. Going without a DC is practically messing your run in the start. So that alone is the first unbalanced thing. Nobody should be forced to run with a DC only in order to get a smoother run, yet this concept was forced on the playerbase circa MOD6 when the Pots lost much of their previous value.
The Call for the DC was in order to mostly heal, yet the changes down the lane made it possible for the DCs to be a powerhouse which adds a lot (A LOT) of power to the groups. The devs are trying all they can in order to make a DC a valuable class and imho DC is the most valuable class you can get. I'd even argue that it has better chances of dropping legendaries when compared to other classes, but I might be paranoid there. I think very highly of the DC, but on another hand I dislike that the playerbase is forcefed with the necessity for the DC as well as a Tanky class.
In DnD games you never really need a tank or a healer in order to run your dungeons, but here you are forced.
Imagine in DnD that you can't play a board game unless you have a friend DC and a friend GF/OP/GWF, how bad would that be?
TBH I'm still looking for just how long this whole "DC is a must" agenda will last. I grew weary of it.
I don't mind that most groups run with two buffer the issue I see is that most groups run with 2 DC and a third buffer with only 1 DPS. If groups were running more with 2 buffers a tank and 2 DPS it wouldn't be as bad.
Balance can happen but if the devs go to much one way or another we will probably see DPS over a buffer; meaning 1 tank and 4 DPS.
There are many solutions available and some are not as good as others. The one I personally like best is re-organizing the roles and creating a CONTROLLER role that is designed for buffing. The classes that would fall into this role would be GF, DC, CW, HR, and TR.
The update would adjust how much buffing a healer/tank could provide and enhance or leave as is the buffing capabilities of the classes when setup into the correct paragon path and feat path.
With this update the GWF class would receive either a buff role or a tank role where the GWF can actually tank. SW would be updated to a healer or buffer role and could que into content as a healer or buffer (depending how the devs want to proceed).
This would give the game 3 tanks, 3 healer, and 5 - 7 buffer along with all the current DPS builds.
The update would keep the private que as is but when you do a non-private que at the end of the dungeon there will be a special chest contain a unique award that is only available for non-prive ques. This encourages players to run non-private with a balance group of a tank, healer, buffer and two DPS.
A quicker option I already mention is remove the private que and now you are force to go with 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DPS where a few of them can run as a buffer, I simply recommended this as it is probably the easiest for the dev to implement.
Another option is a full game revamp, the one I really would like to see the devs do. This would bring about more class balance for the DPS, full out each class to have two roles, maybe add another class to the game (Bard or Druid), etc... This IMO is the way to go long term as the devs could really improve the game and make it so that one shots are a thing of the past and balance groups are the norm with no major complaints about this class is OP in any type of content, PVE or PVP.
The other options include balancing out the DPS side of the game and I'm not sure if that is the best solution given that groups are running with 1 tank, 3 buffer and 1 DPS. Even if a SW, CW and TR could produce like or even more damage than say a GWF or a HR the imbalance groups issue won't go away. REVAMP would be the best way to go long term but if the dev want to do short my recommendation is update the game to add a role and award teams at the end that complete content with the updated group make up.
And please read carefully, my GWF is on the level of several mods ago, the gear and boons simply miss.
Anyway, even running with my GF uphill, all I do is kite mobs and avoid red zones, that´s what every class does , except an OP... it´s about footwork and mobility imo.
I pretty much think we should end this discussion, since I allready know where you come from. The essence of what you write all time is:
"My GWF is not tanky enough, dead all time and deals no damage at all". I got it.
The other approach which you mentioned (buffs don't stack) is another option, but would require MASSIVE re-tooling of the game's difficulty. You could break buffs into offensive and defensive and break debuffs into offensive and defensive. In each of these 4 categories, only the biggest modifier applies, no more stacking, no adding, no multiplying. Also probably eliminate stat sharing as a mechanic altogether and convert them all into flat buffs like they did with GF's Into the Fray long ago. Of course in dungeons and BHEs, enemies would have to be scaled WAAAAAY back and several weapon enchants would need to be changed too. It's such a big mess that, yeah, I don't really see all that happening, though it would probably be the best long-term solution.
"I got my experience from a toon 3 mods ago, so i got no clue what im talking but this class needs a nerf anyways. Just because i think its to op and just because i never cant do any good DPS." I got it.
Best part: You must be tho one....
Anyways, it really baffles me how people think we can tank stuff. I soloed ELOL a few days ago, and do you know how I sustained my health up? Lifesteal. Lostmauth would almost one-shot me through unstoppable, slam AND daring shout. So yeah, it's not as nice as you think. We survive in TONG because we run with a lot of supports. 2 DCs and everyone's golden.
Somone asked me to run T2 as a sentinel, I told him I allready did with HAMSTER gear and that spec is able to tank T2, CN, aggromanagement works to some degree but you have issues with some classes and mark. Simply read what I wrote.
If someone askes me if GWF can tank I would tell him, "Yes he can, grab some supporter and run what you like as main dps, you need some gear and be able to deal damage".
Capstone is a near 24/7 30% mitigation with 30% temp- HP buff, armor specialisation is tank feature with 15% + benefit from defense/AC. With decent deflect and LS you will do fine. And sure, LS is needed to solo content, that´s what all classes beside a healer will need to succeed, exept a Pally, that obviously can do all at once.
I don´t care at all if forum GWF´s deny to be tanky or unable to facetank bosses in NWO (I saw enough doing so ingame), telling me every striker can do same as GWF at DR cap, they seem to suffer from partial blindness.
You can read through threats , where player ask for a dodge or a block (or both) for GWF, most of them in the PVP section.
The class allready outperforms other striker in terms of dps, tankyness and mobility, same as immunity to cc. What will happen if a clueless dev adds a block or a dodge on top?
1. This is first game where we go with 4 supports on 5 ppl dungeon - first game rly
2. Balance no exist.
3. Instead of going forward we back nerf bondings to have previous statistics we have to "get" them again - this is cost a millions or we must farm tong all days.
4. The economy of the game went to the dogs, everything spoiled the lockboxes and drop, where we will get an orcus artifact on valindra
5. GWF is overpower - everything works on it, every charm, every feat gives a bonus to damage, unearthly scaling of statistics, tab stopping cc.
Own observation - the creators of the game are lazy, do not test do not check. Half the things do not even know how it works. I'm surprised that this game is still working.
I had a GF matching my damage in TONG day before yesterday, in two 2 DPS runs.
In the first scenario, there are many classes that are able to solo easily the whole content in t1/t2 dungeons, I keep seeing SW, CW, HR, DC, etc saying LF4M X dungeon final boss so even if they have died a few times through the dungeons they have done it by themselves.
In the second one, are you really a tank when there are 2 DC always on top on you casting AA + Exaltation + AS + HG and any other skill power? because under this context, every DPS class with 2 DC can 'tank' easily MSP, FBI, etc.
Specifically talking about T9G, the OP is there mostly for power-sharing but the class isn't usually using defensive tools in order to protect others besides keeping the enemy's attention and when you go there with a GF the only time they help others to survive is when Knight's Challenge is being used reducing 50% of the incoming damage for party members, however, the GF is receiving double damage and despite that the class is able to sustain that damage (Talking about a DPS GF ofc, the optimal choice). The point is that the content keeps moving forward to a game where buffs/debuffs are far more important than anything else which will make EVERY class a 'tank' as long as you have the right supports. You can keep going with your vendetta against the GWF for being 'tanky' but that's just a consequence of the power creep that is infesting Neverwinter. Weaken the class and that won't solve anything because in the future we will see the same thread about another class. Instead, spend your time asking to the devs for content where you truly need a tank using defensive skills.
And that's why you have the infestation of OPs and DCs in TONG. Because they can turn any 13-14k DPS into a DPS carry god. But it's required, how tf would you else finish the dungeon. After all, it IS a DPS test as I said. The 1st boss has over 1b health.
Mmhhh...Is it really required that you need OP + DCs? mmmhhhh.....
First boss -> hp curse gives 1900% of actual HP as temp hp, if a player with say 200k hp takes it, they will have 3.8M temp hp. Every time they walk into the ball, 100k is removed, so, just starting off, you have enough temp hp to run into 38 balls. Sometimes it bugs and removes more than 100k, however if you dodge into a ball when you are consuming it, the iframe can actually prevent you from losing any temp hp at all, so dodge into every ball. Shielded HP is removed before temp hp. In a slow group, an OP can use skills like absolution on whoever has the temp hp buff, which will be removed before the temp hp. Alternatively, if you have lion, you can lion before you run into balls. Flat mitigation occurs before temp hp as well, so barkshield will also mitigate ball damage. Multiplicative DR layers also occur before the damage, so if a GF has it, they can shift to reduce the damage by 80%. Finally, as a last resort, an OP can take the temp hp buff and refresh it indefinitely with templar's wrath. Any combination of these tactics will basically ensure success, you can even 2 man orcus using a combination of these tactics and a patient OP can probably solo it.
2nd boss has a lot of mechanics but honestly, any group that can do the mechanics for this boss properly, can burst it anyhow, so there is no point describing them.
3rd boss is all about not standing in red or behind the tank and killing souls when they spawn.
The point is, the only reason people think of tong as a dps race is because its easier to dps race it then to do mechanics, not because it doesn't have mechanics.
If 50% of all player run a GWF as their prefered striker and the relation, regarding endcontent, is 1:10 compared to other striker, and the main reason why it is like that is negated all the time, there obviously is some kind of hypocracy involved.
Those ones who main a GWF don´t even admit any kind of balance issues maybe due to their perception of the game.
The arguments I recognize sometimes are like:
" I met a TR (GF, Hunter etc.) that doubled my dps, so we do not have any balance problems"
"Let it be, play the next fotm class"
I know myself, this game and especially the devs in this game don´t have any time, menpower or even knoweledge to solve the puzzle. So if things get touched it may destroy a lot. Maybe this company has bigger plans by deminishing the dev step by step over the years, I don´t know.
But a discussion has to be open and not simply suppressd by tons of player who fear to lose a piece of cake.
The fact that class variety vanished in one mod and the fact that endcontent is farmed by few classes lead to an obvious escape by lot´s of player.
The fact that you read 24/7 same BS in chat : "Lfm OP-DC-DC- lololo" and the fact that some player simply stop runnning with ingame friends due to class disbalance, same as the fact that you do not get an answer because you dare to run an "anticlass" is a big issue in my eyes. But if you run 24/7 one class you might not be able to understand any of this
PVP has same issues since long, allmighty GF for ages, undying DC for many many mods. Atm it´s the annyoing " SoD-autospam-TR" that is the dominant class... and even following those threats you find a lot of player that defend it telling others to count till 6 or learn to avoid the autoproc.
I can´t even say it kills PVP, since it´s allready dead for long.
Facts for mod 12/12b are:
DC is the dominant class.
OP and DC are the best supporter ingame.
OP seems to be the only viable tank at endgame, according the request in chat
GWF is the dominat striker in mod 12.
GF seems to be the most requested 3. supporter, overrepresented in my eyes.
I recognized things like "we want balancing, but claiming for a nerf isnt a way to balance anything", or "some classes like SWs need a push", or "a TR must be the best single target DPS class, but atm its a DPS GF"...
There is really some hate against one particular class. Thats more than obvious.