test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Extended Maintenance Sept. 24 & 26. Check out forum post for more info!

Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

191012141531

Comments

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    updated list page 12
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    Damnation suppos is the tree do debuff and dps but actually not do dps and neither debuffed/buffed its a tree more margined at moment.

    Parting blasphemy its good like already its (i refer 50% weapon damage ) but instead when a curse is removed/cunsume happened when a curse synergy and banish curse cunsume, only have curse synergy and many powers like dreeadtheft, wrath of shadow (if removed curse consume now is only power have curse cunsume intead replace curse synergy) make better dps and perform part buff/debuff this tree

    Retentless curse umm for this feat i dont know wich its point expanded curse if class feature all curse cunsume do that and mouch better, probably need rework for some more buff for example when a curse have synergy enemys aflicted with lesser curse take 10 % more damage from allys a 30¨ from your soul puppet and soul puppet increase your damage in 10%

    Syphoning curse uff for this feat i dont know why put in this tree if exist a tree healer I think need rework that for example i suggest insead heal granted HP temporaly equal 150% or 200% weapon damage all allys a 30¨ from your soul puppet when a curse synergy and also decrease damage resistent may be 10% from enemys a 30¨ from your soul puppet

    The idea is damnation be debuffed-DPS while temptation healer-buff and a damnation well played can be win a fury in dps.
    Many others class have do something extra a main function and not beacause lost the main function this is very important, for example the hunter have 3 tres and so combat or trapper are competitive each other
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    -Wraith's Shadow's targetting circle does not ignore the presence of allies. This is a MUCH more serious issue than the debuff bug because it basically prevents you from actually casting WS in the first place if there is an ally standing in front of the warlock.
    -Dreadtheft essentially already has 50% uptime for a geared lock, less in groups. It's already a very good power as is, FYI the debuff is roughly 40% more powerful than the CW's Ray of Enfeeblement and Dreadtheft is AoE. Ideally though the power should have a 50% cooldown reduction mechanic if the warlock is disrupted while channeling it within the first few seconds, but that's more a quality of life change.
    -Tyrannical Curse should simply stack with Warlock's Curse, also greatly reduce casting time and reduce AP cost to 50% (you can have two up at a time easily).
    -The problem with Soul Scorch is the obscene casting time which cannot be feasibly canceled. Curse Consume actually fuels the power of features like Deadly Curse resulting in an interesting interplay of powers/feats so there is really nothing wrong with the Curse Consume mechanic itself - the problem is that the rewards for actually performing Curse Consume is generally not worth the effort. Consider that similar mechanics (stealthed TR powers, GWF powers with Unstoppable, empowered cleric powers) result in a much, MUCH more significant damage reward. A buff to Soul Scorch casting time, Curse Consume power effects and Lesser Curse/Deadly Curse damage would make Curse Consume worth doing again.

    -What Fury needs is a damage boost, the problem is how to implement a damage boost that takes into consideration the current meta, the fact that Hellbringer Fury and Soulbinder Fury are VERY different animals, and possible improvements to warlock powers. My personal suggestion would be to (at least) triple the damage of Creeping Death - except that it now only applies to (at most) three targets at a time (your Warlock's Curse targets). This should put Hellbringer/Soulbinder in a position where they need to consider very carefully what powers they intend to use and how they intend to make the most out of the new half AP cost Tyrannical Curse. The overall result is a modest AoE boost and a significant single target/multi-target boost, which is in line with that the original SW was all about - a striker that specializes in dealing massive damage to a low number of targets. This gives it back its original defining feature among NW strikers.
    Also, people paying close attention should realize that this is basically an attempt to bring back the old Tyrannical Threat, at least in spirit.
    If we're going to operate at limited resources, then simply making Warlock's Curse stack with a half AP Tyrannical Curse + significantly increased damage Creeping Death will have to do.

    -Your proposed changes for Damnation have very low priority. Like I already said, Damnation is basically just Temptation minus the group buffs without its minion (think about that for a moment, especially with dev proposed changes like +20% ally damage to targets with Warlock's Curse) so if the devs plan to fix Damnation they should start with what makes the path what it is - the Soul Puppet. The nice thing about Damnation is its compartmentalized damage scheme - it's not particularly reliant on +%damage, for example, because the Soul Puppet simply ignores these - and so Hellbringer and Soulbinder are more like playstyle choices instead of competing paths. Hellbringer gives you group buffs and stronger powers in general, Soulbinder gives you a much tougher warlock/puppet and an excellent single target nuke. This also means that out of all warlocks Damnation has the most freedom when choosing what powers to use because it really only matters that it focuses on debuffs (the only +% damage type that increases the damage done by both the warlock and the puppet) and soul puppet generation powers (ideally).
    Obviously the problem is that the Soul Puppet - Damnation's supposed equivalent to Fury's Creeping Death - is nowhere near as powerful as its Fury capstone counterpart. Raising Soul Investiture stack limit is the easiest way to fix this because it's a mechanic that's already in the game and is (relatively) easy to track because there are very, very few effects that affect the soul puppet. Personally I'd suggest a max stack of 15, but I'd be willing to settle for 10 and remain on probation for a mod or two as long as the devs consider it.
    In an ideal world there'd be additions like possible crit chance and improved scaling with summoner stats, but that's simply not feasible given the devs' limited resources.

    -The buffs to Temptation are actually massive, especially if you take into account the current power stacking meta. For the uninitiated, the gist is that power stacking becomes less effective when you already have high power stat to start with (like if you have a bonding companion... which is like most people) because the effect is additive. A straight up +%damage boost, on the other hand, is multiplicative with a power boost. And then you have things like Dreadtheft...
    The bottomline is that the result of these changes are difficult to predict from an offense-perspective (except that it's very likely going to exacerbate the whole "we only bringer leaders and tanks" issue) but the problem with having a temptlock filling in as a leader was never about offense, but defense - temptlock healing is too chaotic. You need a target to actually heal other people, for example, and there was little you could do to help people survive massive damage skills (now imagine a combination of those two situations, like on higher tier dungeons).
    My proposed solution is to change Eldritch Momentum - any damage resistance bonus the temptlock gets while using Shadow Slip now also applies to allies. We already have a lot of +%stamina stuff in the game anyway.
    I'm not really sure if there's a cost-effective way to turn Temptation into a proper leader without implementing some similar DR mechanic.

    As it stands, the non-temptlock changes seem unnecessarily complicated. These piecemeal changes (and similar suggestions) are themselves going to change in the future once the devs finally get around to fixing how the class works anyway, so if you guys are trying to work on classes from the ground up then starting with tier 1 feats seems like a bad idea when the problem goes down all the way to how the class operates - broken powers, dated class/path-defining features, animation times (this is not even a stat!), unrewarding core mechanics... does the class even have direction at this point? It would be nice if you people shared that much.
    Frankly while it's nice that feats now scale with powers/buffs bottomline is that the engine's broken. How shiny new accessories are supposed to help is anyone's guess, and this is a weird way to go about fixing something, regardless.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Posts: 3,324Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @bloodyspamer said:
    > Sw is D.E.A.D.
    > I want my HAMSTER money that i have spend on my sw back. !!
    >
    > Which you can't get back.. It's like situation with pizza.. You bought, you consumed it, and now wanting get money back.. :)

    Young an at least <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the pizza out and sell the fertilizer...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • random1selfrandom1self Posts: 34Member Arc User
    Damnation: burning puppets - soul puppet does more damage to target marked with any curse instead of lesser curse? Buffing the soul puppet on lesser curse while the warlock needs warlocks curse seems contradictory.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    tyrtallow said:


    Wraith's Shadow's targetting circle does not ignore the presence of allies. This is a MUCH more serious issue than the debuff bug because it basically prevents you from actually casting WS in the first place if there is an ally standing in front of the warlock.

    Sure an issue, if more serious than a competely missing debuff, idk. I only witnessed so far a immidiate vanishing debuff. No 20+40% debuff, wich is the only reason to use that power, and it is like that since ever. Also proven by ACT, the target get´s no damagedebuff hitting you wich is a big issue imo. I tested it about 2 mods ago, maybe someone knows more details
    tyrtallow said:

    Dreadtheft essentially already has 50% uptime for a geared lock, less in groups. It's already a very good power as is, FYI the debuff is roughly 40% more powerful than the CW's Ray of Enfeeblement and Dreadtheft is AoE. Ideally though the power should have a 50% cooldown reduction mechanic if the warlock is disrupted while channeling it within the first few seconds, but that's more a quality of life change.

    We can´t balance a power , regarding the presence of a max buffer group with speedbuffs and CD rests.
    If I remeber correct DT once had the debuff component and a lasting/stacking DR-buff (5stacks). Since rework both vanishes immidiately the encounter stops, once DR debuff was lasting beyond CD.
    Since we do not run all time in a maxed buffer group with Hastening light and Flash of light, it would be an improvement and a simple solution to give that debuff a lasting component. You are punished by channeling DT concerning lowdps, and are also punished by that cooldown on top. Solo it is a 1/3 uptime if you would test yourself (exactly 8 seconds lasting debuff) and there is no chance to cast that encounter in between doing your rotation after anoher 8 seconds, except you run >10k+recovery.
    The debuff is a 25% debuff and it´s capped. I think you speak of that multiplier function that debuff is told to work like?
    If I am solo and run ACT and debuff that dummy, there is a 25% debuff, nothing else my dps does not get multiplied, same as my other debuffs do not get multiplied.
    Not sure where to find any source of evidence or any dev writing about DT multiplying parties dps?
    tyrtallow said:


    Tyrannical Curse should simply stack with Warlock's Curse, also greatly reduce casting time and reduce AP cost to 50% (you can have two up at a time easily).

    That´s what it once did and if I remeber correct, was a problem since there were many interactions and bugs about WC and TC aplied on the same target. Going that way we might drop back into bugs I fear, so a simple buff towards the aoe component would be nice.
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10074093-class-balance:-scourge-warlock
    tyrtallow said:


    The problem with Soul Scorch is the obscene casting time which cannot be feasibly canceled. Curse Consume actually fuels the power of features like Deadly Curse resulting in an interesting interplay of powers/feats so there is really nothing wrong with the Curse Consume mechanic itself - the problem is that the rewards for actually performing Curse Consume is generally not worth the effort. Consider that similar mechanics (stealthed TR powers, GWF powers with Unstoppable, empowered cleric powers) result in a much, MUCH more significant damage reward. A buff to Soul Scorch casting time, Curse Consume power effects and Lesser Curse/Deadly Curse damage would make Curse Consume worth doing again.

    Soul Scorch and WC and consumeeffect in a hole is a pain, no fun and allways was like that imo.
    There is no way to speak of an intersting mechanic, or any need of skill to make it run and giving that tree an interesting note imho. It´s just an unhandy Curse linked with a clumsy classmechanic. I can´t see any benefit in goiing on like that, if a GWF can slam 5x 1 mio Sure Strike on the same target without casting silly curse in between. I want to curse and forget, we need to speed up warlocks castingtimes and warlocks performance in a hole. I read about 100 times about player ranting about dead mobs lying on the floor the moment they want to start their rotation.
    Agree, curse consume does not happen in any case any more, noone uses encounter that consume curse except SS and maybe HG.
    Deadly curse is a pretty poor classfeature, causing instand thread applied on mobs and dealing pityfull dps.
    tyrtallow said:


    What Fury needs is a damage boost, the problem is how to implement a damage boost that takes into consideration the current meta, the fact that Hellbringer Fury and Soulbinder Fury are VERY different animals, and possible improvements to warlock powers. My personal suggestion would be to (at least) triple the damage of Creeping Death - except that it now only applies to (at most) three targets at a time (your Warlock's Curse targets). This should put Hellbringer/Soulbinder in a position where they need to consider very carefully what powers they intend to use and how they intend to make the most out of the new half AP cost Tyrannical Curse. The overall result is a modest AoE boost and a significant single target/multi-target boost, which is in line with that the original SW was all about - a striker that specializes in dealing massive damage to a low number of targets. This gives it back its original defining feature among NW strikers.

    First of, triple Creeping Death, that´s far too much? Atm Creeping Death allready is about 25-30% of my overall-damage, wich is huge, in theory you can achieve 34% maximum.
    That feature is tied to curses, not any more to your 3 Warlocks Curse since > 1 Year and I am happy about that, the former function was pretty unhandy and far worse.
    Buffing it from 60 towards 75% will be a dps-increase for 6 to 7.5%, not enough by sure.
    We do need more burst on top, but we should focus on something aside DoT´s i think, buffed encounter, better casting times, higher base damage etc.. not only a DoT component that is known to be a main issue for lacking in dps bc it needs some time to run.
    tyrtallow said:


    Also, people paying close attention should realize that this is basically an attempt to bring back the old Tyrannical Threat, at least in spirit.

    And that´s what we will not get back I am sure because of this:
    " Also want to just post a reminder of our intent - our intent with these changes is not to nerf the Scourge Warlock. While they have a few outstanding powers, overall, they are underperforming, and we want to bring up the class as a whole while making the "crutch" powers like Tyrannical Threat not an absolute must-have for the class to function."
    And this:
    https://pwimages-a.akamaihd.net/arc/c8/db/c8db0d588facd44ecc57b5ac1936444f1468528329.png
    tyrtallow said:


    Your proposed changes for Damnation have very low priority. Like I already said, Damnation is basically just Temptation minus the group buffs without its minion

    No priority by sure, but annoying and underperforming feature for at least... 4 years now. So I dared to give them a meaning.
    Those are only simple proposals made in 5 min, about the warlocks ablility to apply curse and to have a substantial dps increase by that,
    if it is buffed weapondamage
    It will be a considerable way to apply LC for Templock and Damnation easily without using ACC , even though they have smaller interest in LC, only by using DT and FB. But I amnot convinced myself about those ones...
    tyrtallow said:


    so if the devs plan to fix Damnation they should start with what makes the path what it is - the Soul Puppet.

    Agree , we waited 4 years for this to happen for temptation...
    tyrtallow said:


    Obviously the problem is that the Soul Puppet - Damnation's supposed equivalent to Fury's Creeping Death - is nowhere near as powerful as its Fury capstone counterpart. Raising Soul Investiture stack limit is the easiest way to fix this because it's a mechanic that's already in the game and is (relatively) easy to track because there are very, very few effects that affect the soul puppet. Personally I'd suggest a max stack of 15, but I'd be willing to settle for 10 and remain on probation for a mod or two as long as the devs consider it.
    In an ideal world there'd be additions like possible crit chance and improved scaling with summoner stats, but that's simply not feasible given the devs' limited resources.

    Last time I run Damnation HB was mod 10 or 11.. I intend to buy a loadout in short to give it a try.
    That´s an old ACT log from kallephi, who went over to GF class or left the game , no clue
    https://s19.postimg.org/fz1h755gj/damn_msva_log_1.jpg
    My ACT logs showed similar results builds for a critbuild, as far as I remember.
    Since bonding rework, that ammount should have become more, simply because you deal less and puppet stays the way it is.
    I can´t contribute much towards puppet bc I did no investigations. I know that path deals less dps by sure and one reason is a dead puppet or a stupid puppet, same as Wraith CLaw does not crit... Maybe the simply should make that puppet benefit from your Critchance at the base of a 75% critseverity, same as it benefits from your Damage Resistance, Life Steal Chance, and Deflection Chance.

    Btw. Creeping Death from 60 to 75% is a 5-7% dps increass for Critbuilds
    Ghastly Commander is a 5% dps in crease, no big difference in both trees for now concerning dps except that buff towards weapondamage, wich is meh
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    tyrtallow said:


    -The buffs to Temptation are actually massive, especially if you take into account the current power stacking meta. For the uninitiated, the gist is that power stacking becomes less effective when you already have high power stat to start with (like if you have a bonding companion... which is like most people) because the effect is additive. A straight up +%damage boost, on the other hand, is multiplicative with a power boost. And then you have things like Dreadtheft...
    The bottomline is that the result of these changes are difficult to predict from an offense-perspective (except that it's very likely going to exacerbate the whole "we only bringer leaders and tanks" issue) but the problem with having a temptlock filling in as a leader was never about offense, but defense - temptlock healing is too chaotic. You need a target to actually heal other people, for example, and there was little you could do to help people survive massive damage skills (now imagine a combination of those two situations, like on higher tier dungeons).
    My proposed solution is to change Eldritch Momentum - any damage resistance bonus the temptlock gets while using Shadow Slip now also applies to allies. We already have a lot of +%stamina stuff in the game anyway.
    I'm not really sure if there's a cost-effective way to turn Temptation into a proper leader without implementing some similar DR mechanic.

    As it stands, the non-temptlock changes seem unnecessarily complicated. These piecemeal changes (and similar suggestions) are themselves going to change in the future once the devs finally get around to fixing how the class works anyway, so if you guys are trying to work on classes from the ground up then starting with tier 1 feats seems like a bad idea when the problem goes down all the way to how the class operates - broken powers, dated class/path-defining features, animation times (this is not even a stat!), unrewarding core mechanics... does the class even have direction at this point? It would be nice if you people shared that much.
    Frankly while it's nice that feats now scale with powers/buffs bottomline is that the engine's broken. How shiny new accessories are supposed to help is anyone's guess, and this is a weird way to go about fixing something, regardless.

    The buff is a 20% open buff towards the group on WC´d targets, resulting in a 20% dps increase. In short it will only be from bigger impact on boss encounter and by sure inferior to any Terrfying Impact (a brainless 20% multiplier) or a near same brainless Hollowed ground a simple 40% multiplier..
    20% is not like an unpredictable "omg the game will have balance issues-buff"
    It´s worse than ITF, worse than HG, worse than TI, worse than Breaking the spirit, simply too low to speak of "massive" at all.
    If I run my templock in Tong, the dps is pretty low. Compared to switching over towards my DC, it´s a "massive" difference tbh... a 20% buff won´t break this, no way.
    Your templock will be still inferior to any DO DC or AC/DC by that, a GF with ITF will outperform you in case he knows how to deal dps and how to buff/debuff (Crushing pin, mark), same as most CW-mof will out dps and outperform you concenring debuffs imo.
    Take a Prot OP, 25% aura as powerbuff, speed and CD-reset, Aura of courage wich is at least 15% dps increase or most striker... your templock will be not wanted in that Inner Circle of OP-DC-DC-GF :)

    A DR Bonus towards allies should be consistent and not a passing buff by using a power like Shadowslip imo.
    You can either run into that "damagedebuff thing", warlock is condemned to work with, or make auras stronger etc. But I don´t think we will get there if at all. Atm I think we are stuck right where we are and no more improvements are accepted.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    updated list page 12
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Damnation at momento its tree more margined suppos is dps also can debuff but not do dps neither debuff. Need rework feats and interaction with soul puppet i have some ideas

    First place remove curse cunsume only have one power wrath of shadow is very ineficient active feats like parting or relentless when only have one power for interact instead only have curse synergy.

    Parting blasphemy When a happened a curse synergy dealt 50% weapon damage on target aflicted with lesser curse

    Relentless curse (need rework this feat i dont feel sense exist a feat expand curse if alredy have class feature do that and mouch better ) When a happened curse synergy on target your soul puppet dealt 10% more damage and all allys near from soul puppet increase dealt damage at foes in 10%

    Syphoning curse (same situation if have a tree for healer temlock what its the point have exist one feat that heal and also very bad 100% weapon damage is ridiculus ) All allys near from your soul puppet that strike enemys with lesser curse gain 150% or 200% weapon damage as temporaly hit points also decrease 10% damage resistent all enemys near from yor soul puppet

    And finally the soul puppet have very low dps need do one stak aditional buffing your damage also soul investure or make increase staks soul investure. First soul investure and soul desecration its very hard interact if fight in bosess because adds them kill easy for this way summon a soul puppet but not have much or none have also staks decay easily out of combat.

    First suggest soul desecration instead summon soul puppet buffing your damage and your soul puppet when use a encounter power agnist enemys aflicted with lesser curse and least more of 40 seg or permanent also can stak at 20 times

    Second if increase damage base of the puppet in base from your own power and gain ability do crit hits. Soul desecration only buffing damage of your soul puppet when use a encounter power agnist enemys aflicted with lesser curse and stak 15 times

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Damnation at momento its tree more margined suppos is dps also can debuff but not do dps neither debuff. Need rework feats and interaction with soul puppet i have some ideas

    First place remove curse cunsume only have one power wrath of shadow is very ineficient active feats like parting or relentless when only have one power for interact instead only have curse synergy.

    Parting blasphemy When a happened a curse synergy dealt 50% weapon damage on target aflicted with lesser curse

    Relentless curse (need rework this feat i dont feel sense exist a feat expand curse if alredy have class feature do that and mouch better ) When a happened curse synergy on target your soul puppet dealt 10% more damage and all allys near from soul puppet increase dealt damage at foes in 10%

    Syphoning curse (same situation if have a tree for healer temlock what its the point have exist one feat that heal and also very bad 100% weapon damage is ridiculus ) All allys near from your soul puppet that strike enemys with lesser curse gain 150% or 200% weapon damage as temporaly hit points also decrease 10% damage resistent all enemys near from yor soul puppet

    And finally the soul puppet have very low dps need do one stak aditional buffing your damage also soul investure or make increase staks soul investure. First soul investure and soul desecration its very hard interact if fight in bosess because adds them kill easy for this way summon a soul puppet but not have much or none have also staks decay easily out of combat.

    First suggest soul desecration instead summon soul puppet buffing your damage and your soul puppet when use a encounter power agnist enemys aflicted with lesser curse and least more of 40 seg or permanent also can stak at 20 times

    Second if increase damage base of the puppet in base from your own power and gain ability do crit hits. Soul desecration only buffing damage of your soul puppet when use a encounter power agnist enemys aflicted with lesser curse and stak 15 times

    thx, I wrote it down above with small adjustements
    Honestly I think Soul Investiture is a slow mechanic , a group get´s buffed in 5 seconds. Why should your main dps as Damnaiton lock take about 10min to max buffs?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017


    Sure an issue, if more serious than a competely missing debuff, idk...

    It also summons a Soul Puppet, and is the only encounter power able to do so besides Killing Flames. Even if only used as a damaging encounter it simply doesn't help if you can't even cast the skill in the first place.


    We can´t balance a power , regarding the presence of a max buffer group with speedbuffs and CD rests.

    Actually if Dreadtheft's cooldown was any lower in group content SWs would be forced to spam it for the sake of overall damage and not use any of their other powers.

    If I remeber correct DT once had the debuff component and a lasting/stacking DR-buff (5stacks). Since rework both vanishes immidiately the encounter stops, once DR debuff was lasting beyond CD...
    >10k+recovery.

    ...what are you talking about? Even at 2k recovery Dreadtheft has a cooldown of about 13 seconds and has a channeling time of 6 seconds. You START at roughly 30% uptime, from there you can only go higher. It helps that Fury doesn't like Dreadtheft at higher ilvl (because Creeping Death favors big hits and higher proc rate, also you'll be busy stacking crit) so that leaves Damnation/Temptation, and these paths have a lot of options for improving that uptime. You SHOULD aim for close to 50% uptime.

    The debuff is a 25% debuff and it´s capped. I think you speak of that multiplier function that debuff is told to work like?...
    Not sure where to find any source of evidence or any dev writing about DT multiplying parties dps?

    Again, what are you talking about? It's very easy to test that the 25% debuff of DT also works on your other ongoing damage effects.
    Also have you heard about the debuff rework? Your knowledge about debuffs seems outdated, debuffs no longer work on each other (unless buggy) and debuffs now have more of a soft cap. You'll want to read up on the current meta, the devs have basically been working on the game from the ground up. I don't think there's a thread with the consolidated debuff changes, you'll need to find an external source from google.


    That´s what it once did and if I remeber correct, was a problem since there were many interactions and bugs about WC and TC aplied on the same target...

    Or they could simply change TC so that instead of +20% it becomes 40% if the target has a Warlock's Curse. It doesn't have to complicated. The point is that they should stack because at this point they are very different curses.


    Soul Scorch and WC and consumeeffect in a hole is a pain, no fun and allways was like that imo... I can´t see any benefit in goiing on like that, if a GWF can slam 5x 1 mio Sure Strike on the same target without casting silly curse in between...

    Do you actually play other classes like GWFs? It's very easy to talk about just activating Slam and spamming Sure Strike, but playing a GWF WELL is not so simple. You have to keep track of Hidden Daggers duration/charnges, the duration of your Weapon Master's Strike at-will and when to refresh the debuff, the presence of the "mark" mechanic on targets and your Determination/Unstoppable meter to really max out your DPS. It's part and parcel of what makes the difference between just playing a class and playing a class to the best of its ability - player skill checks are important to the game.
    If the SW is getting significant changes (like it deserves) then like every other class this must come with caveats. You can argue that an "easier" mechanic would be nice if the SW does not get any significant changes, but that's obviously not what we're going for here.

    Deadly curse is a pretty poor classfeature, causing instand thread applied on mobs and dealing pityfull dps.

    Hence the need for a buff, especially since class feature is closely tied to Lesser Curse (a core mechanic) as a result of a few feats.


    First of, triple Creeping Death, that´s far too much? Atm Creeping Death allready is about 25-30% of my overall-damage...

    The point is that the SW doesn't have an identity has a striker. GWFs are a tanky (they have a LOT of defensive feats/powers and generally higher survivability stats) massive damage melee striker, Hunters are versatile (lots of offensive/defensive encounters and can freely go burst/damage over time) striker, CWs are AoE specialists that can also do significant single target DPS (though they currently have their issues), GFs/OPs/DCs are primarily support even they they also have DPS builds, and the TR is supposed to (keyword supposed) have monstrous single target DPS.
    Where do you think the SW fits in? DoTs? All of these classes have DoTs. The SW needs an identity, and that identity should the be a striker that specializes in dealing massive damage to a small number of targets, which is what the SW was originally about at the time of its release.


    And that´s what we will not get back I am sure because of this:
    " Also want to just post a reminder of our intent... while making the "crutch" powers like Tyrannical Threat not an absolute must-have for the class to function."

    Did you think carefully about what my suggestion entails? How is it a crutch mechanic if you have to work hard to make it work, like If you have to decide carefully about what powers to use with what? This is obviously nothing like a crutch mechanic. Finally, Tyrannnical Curse doesn't allow you to have two of them up at the same time atm which is why I'm fine with just a 50% AP reduction on my "if the devs have limited resources" summary. That just means you have to use it with something else.


    The buff is a 20% open buff towards the group on WC´d targets, resulting in a 20% dps increase. In short it will only be from bigger impact on boss encounter and by sure inferior to any Terrfying Impact (a brainless 20% multiplier) or a near same brainless Hollowed ground a simple 40% multiplier...

    You forget about Dark Revelry, +20% power, and Circle of Power/Dreadtheft, 35% debuff total, constant combat advantage and now a free +5% buff from proposed changes. Soulbreaker isn't too bad either. Overall the whole thing is still less than what the DC can pull off, but it's actually very close/better than the examples you mentioned and there's really nothing prevent Temptlock from changing the meta from OP-DC/etc to OP-DC-Temptlock/etc.
    Because that's just what we need - more class exclusivity. The point of my offense-perspective comment was never about Temptlocks replacing the DC or OP, it was Temptlocks potentially making things worse for everyone else.

    As for a group-wide Shadow Slip DR, there needs to be a skill check component to what Temptlocks do because atm it's all procs.


    Honestly I think Soul Investiture is a slow mechanic , a group get´s buffed in 5 seconds. Why should your main dps as Damnaiton lock take about 10min to max buffs?

    Exaggeration, there are also powers that increase Soul Investiture. Anyway currently at 5 stacks and a legendary ilvl 480 artifact weapon Soul Investiture basically increases puppet damage from around 10k to 20k (generous figure). Because the puppet doesn't really scale with a lot of things, a linear increase to that damage (through increased Soul Investiture stacks) would increase puppet damage to 40k-50k at 15 Soul Investiture stacks. Not a bad first step, and that's really all it is - it's definitely a lot better than what Damnlocks have at this point. There's also a skill check mechanic in how you need to keep the puppet alive.

    The gist of the matter is that Damnlocks are functional atm and although it's nowhere near optimized people who continue to play one are mostly just happy that it even works. As long as they DO get something substantial then it doesn't matter if the whole thing remains a work in progress.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User

    Damnation at momento its tree more margined suppos is dps also can debuff but not do dps neither debuff. Need rework feats and interaction with soul puppet i have some ideas

    First place remove curse cunsume only have one power wrath of shadow is very ineficient active feats like parting or relentless when only have one power for interact instead only have curse synergy.

    Parting blasphemy When a happened a curse synergy dealt 50% weapon damage on target aflicted with lesser curse

    Relentless curse (need rework this feat i dont feel sense exist a feat expand curse if alredy have class feature do that and mouch better ) When a happened curse synergy on target your soul puppet dealt 10% more damage and all allys near from soul puppet increase dealt damage at foes in 10%

    Syphoning curse (same situation if have a tree for healer temlock what its the point have exist one feat that heal and also very bad 100% weapon damage is ridiculus ) All allys near from your soul puppet that strike enemys with lesser curse gain 150% or 200% weapon damage as temporaly hit points also decrease 10% damage resistent all enemys near from yor soul puppet

    And finally the soul puppet have very low dps need do one stak aditional buffing your damage also soul investure or make increase staks soul investure. First soul investure and soul desecration its very hard interact if fight in bosess because adds them kill easy for this way summon a soul puppet but not have much or none have also staks decay easily out of combat.

    First suggest soul desecration instead summon soul puppet buffing your damage and your soul puppet when use a encounter power agnist enemys aflicted with lesser curse and least more of 40 seg or permanent also can stak at 20 times

    Second if increase damage base of the puppet in base from your own power and gain ability do crit hits. Soul desecration only buffing damage of your soul puppet when use a encounter power agnist enemys aflicted with lesser curse and stak 15 times

    thx, I wrote it down above with small adjustements
    Honestly I think Soul Investiture is a slow mechanic , a group get´s buffed in 5 seconds. Why should your main dps as Damnaiton lock take about 10min to max buffs?

    but i think with new scheme soul desecration that make stack that buff using encounters powers no longer more depends of soul investure from buff the puppet. Actually not have much powers summon soul puppet so its some complicate stak investure soul
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Soul Scorch and WC and consumeeffect in a hole is a pain, no fun and allways was like that imo.
    There is no way to speak of an intersting mechanic, or any need of skill to make it run and giving that tree an interesting note imho. It´s just an unhandy Curse linked with a clumsy classmechanic. I can´t see any benefit in goiing on like that, if a GWF can slam 5x 1 mio Sure Strike on the same target without casting silly curse in between. I want to curse and forget, we need to speed up warlocks castingtimes and warlocks performance in a hole. I read about 100 times about player ranting about dead mobs lying on the floor the moment they want to start their rotation.
    Agree, curse consume does not happen in any case any more, noone uses encounter that consume curse except SS and maybe HG.
    Deadly curse is a pretty poor classfeature, causing instand thread applied on mobs and dealing pityfull dps.

    What I will say now was tested a little after 10.5, before I almost completely stopped playing fury sw. It was either FBI or MSVA, I would have to fix my ACT so I can open the files again.

    On HB, sure, deadly curse is pointless. On SB on the other hand, you have to think about what passives can increase your damage. There aren't many options actually, and they rely on the artifact off hand power. You can either get a 5% severity with ACC or a max of 5% damage with Dust to dust. You can't get both. But the benefit from each is pretty straightforward if you know your own statistics.
    The thing is, deadly curse was a pleasant surprise to me as I didn't expect it to be anything worth noting. It turned out between 3.5 to 4.5% on the ACT log (I will confirm if I get ACT fixed today). For passives, this is basically one of the only 2 damage passives you can have on SB, and its damage is not negligible. You are then stuck with deadly curse and your choice between acc or d2d depending on your off hand power.

    I do agree that the old DT, pre mod10, was much better than the what devs perceived as an improved DT after mod 10. Not only could you build max stacks on single targets (due to how curse consume worked before), but the buff also lasted a few seconds after you stopped channeling, so you could benefit from it a little bit yourself.
    A similar thing happened to HG, which applied a debuff of up to 39% but which the dev deemed useless and "improved" it with a 50% increase of curse damage. What the ducks, right? It also had the 15% puppet damage, but I don't know if the damnation builds after that were so devastating because of that single buff.

    So I'm afraid that some of the nice things people are proposing, like TC 50% AP cost, DT control immunity during channeling, and many others might actually get a twist and be turned against our favor. Still, a 20% overall cast time reduction probably won't hurt.

    At the very least, what seems to be the accepted coming changes so far, with the exception of eldritch momentum, are all improvements, even if minor, without any setback.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @tyrtallow
    I answered because you write as if Dreatheft with it's 25% debuff was a superior spell wich is not.
    Michelas debuff list is no secret beside I tested enough to know what is and what not.
    The debuff, if a lasting debuff, would be a far better tool to work arround and take care of positioning , rotation etc.
    I more get the impression you do not run any higher content with your lock?
    Otherwise you would know, it's near impossible to use this debuff in a consistent way at several Boss encounter.
    Monitor the uptime of that debuff at 1. 2. and 3. Boss in Tong, at Withers it feels like 2% uptime being interrupted all time and the most time you watch that CD.
    Show me the better utility than a CWmof or DC has, by simply dealing aoe and debuff that way or drop a DG inside mobs to instant apply a lasting debuff from the power itself plus additive CG/ByS.

    Beside that i play GWF and know pretty well how this class works.

    About Soul Investiture.
    A buff applied to the puppet, wich is your main dps (look at the Act log), needs to stack 5 times to be at max and turns of the puppet dies?
    What is good about a buff that needs you to call 5x a puppet until it works at max?
    Why not make it simple?
    One buff , applied by any power able to stack that power is enough. Or simply skip that buff, let that puppet deal MX damage right from the start.
    Only reading about it is disencouraging. Stack 5 times and drop to zero when the puppet dies. It takes time in PVP and PVE to gain full DPS of that stupid thing. If everypbe wants to go up to 15 stacks you may achieve that stacks at the end of the fight...maybe
    My GWF got selfbuffs up in about 6 seconds destroyer stacks+ weapon master stacks.
    Another point wich shows me that you are not updated atm. TR got Monster DPS on single targets atm, looking at SoD procs for 10 mio in a row lately at Boss encounter, some said they even climb much higher.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017

    I answered because you write as if Dreatheft with it's 25% debuff was a superior spell wich is not.

    Michelas debuff list is no secret beside I tested enough to know what is and what not.

    The debuff, if a lasting debuff, would be a far better tool to work arround and take care of positioning , rotation etc.

    I more get the impression you do not run any higher content with your lock?

    Otherwise you would know, it's near impossible to use this debuff in a consistent way at several Boss encounter.

    Monitor the uptime of that debuff at 1. 2. and 3. Boss in Tong, show me the better utility than a CWmof or DC has, by simply dealing aoe and debuff that way or drop a DG inside mobs to instant apply a lasting debuff from the power itself plus additive CG/ByS.



    Beside that i play GWF and know pretty well how this class works.



    About Soul Investiture.

    A buff applied to the puppet, wich is your main dps (look at the Act log), needs to stack 5 times to be at max and turns of the puppet dies?

    What is good about a buff that needs you to call 5x a puppet until it works at max?

    Why not make it simple?

    One buff , applied by any power able to stack that power is enough. Or simply skip that buff, let that puppet deal MX damage right from the start.

    Only reading about it is disencouraging. Stack 5 times and drop to zero when the puppet dies. It takes time in PVP and PVE to gain full DPS of that stupid thing.

    My GWF got selfbuffs up in about 6 seconds destroyer stacks+ weapon master stacks.

    I run TONG with damnlock and two furylocks, and my problem with the current meta in fact is that the massive cooldown reductions makes it difficult to determine when you should be using DT and and when you should be doing something else. In some groups, in fact, you can pretty much have DT up all the time but that's not really something you want because you do have to use nukes or auto-attacks to proc stuff. It's even worse on my Soulbinder loadouts because I HAVE to spam Soul Scorch but I to constantly choose between that or Dreadtheft, which is why I usually just skip Dreadtheft against bosses.
    Rotation is no issue because damnlock favors DoT encounters anyway and you can simply use those before casting Dreadtheft. Note that unlike furylocks, damnlocks don't really lose as much by casting Dreadtheft - the puppet keeps attacking, your DoTs keep doing damage, etc.

    On my furylocks its really no problem because I don't use Dreadtheft, it just doesn't work as well with Creeping Death except in paper or when some other SW is using Dreadtheft. On temptlocks, I don't see why they don't just spam it whenever they can.

    If you're arguing about turning Dreadtheft into a general cast-and-forget debuff, then I'm not sure what to think about that since it would create a very different meta. 25% bonus damage is huge, and if Dreadtheft became anything like PoP (easy to apply debuff) it would create a situation where it NEEDS to be slotted.

    I already pointed out that there needs to be skill checks to make playing classes fulfilling and interesting, otherwise you could argue that why would classes like the DC need empowered stacks? The problem with damnlocks though is that they have a history of being broken (not "gimped", just that it works differently) specifically the soul puppet. At one point you could summon multiple soul puppets, and then there was the whole super-buffed soul puppet meta last year. It's very different from a GWF where you just hit stuff and gain buffs. Therefore it makes sense that the devs are very wary around changes to the soul puppet, which is why these changes need to be gradual. No one is saying these should be the final changes, just that they should be the changes NOW.

    BTW, there's a reason Michela's debuff guide is no longer updated. Like I said, the way debuffs work was changed in a recent rework. You will need to find some other page that explains the changes.

    Another point wich shows me that you are not updated atm. TR got Monster DPS on single targets atm, looking at SoD procs for 10 mio in a row lately at Boss encounter, some said they even climb much higcher.

    Except Shadow of Demise is a notoriously broken feat.
    You want to hold yourself to a broken standard? Do you know that a DC can kill you in PvP with prone spam using an exploit? And there'd be absolutely nothing you can do about it on most characters.
    We could just use that as a our standard in PvP and then whoever does the first attack would win automatically. That would be an interesting game, though I doubt a lot of people would play it.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @naoqueroforum
    If the class get's no further improvements, there will be no competetive strikter build in mod 13.
    No viable damnationbuild.
    Only an improved temptree with a better capstone, no mitigation abilities, no poweshare and beside PoP an unhandy and inconsistent power to debuff.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    He's voicing a (legitimate) concern, not exactly taking a side. And he has good cause to be worried, all things considered.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • etelgrinetelgrin Posts: 1,568Member Arc User
    Since Tyrannical Threat is a single target daily, it would be also nice that it would do some serious damage upon cast and then have this initial damage spread through TC.

    Pug Panther - PvP SW

    Youtube Channel
    Scourge Warlock Haven - Build Videos - PvP Content - Other Features.

    R.I.P
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Posts: 130Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    With the casting time of TC @etelgrin 's idea sounds very nice. Some splash damage for being affected with the curse.

    How about making Killing Curse have its damage tripled vs Tyrannical Curse? 45% instead og 15%. Making SW truly focus towards the single target damage.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Posts: 130Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Idea for Deadly Curse:

    As for now this is one of the few features that makes the curse consume effect actually worth something, but the curse consume is not a very nice addition as you don't really want to remove the curse, which is a big damage buff.

    Change Deadly Curse to further boost the Warlock's Curse mechanic. Make it a 30% debuff vs the cursed target (not lesser cursed ones). This debuff not only for the SW but for party. This would add more utility to the SW, both Temptation, Fury and Damnation. 30% should not be too big of a debuff as the cap is 3 targets, but my idea was to balance it and not make it too powerful. Master of Flames CW can easily debuff more than that in an AoE situation, so can the DC.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @pyrosorcerer

    But as a debuff wouldn't it just get its effectiveness diminished too much in endgame groups? I think SW would be better off with more/mostly buffs, we have quite a few debuffs already.
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Posts: 200Member Arc User
    I like the idea of our feats like critical promise scaling but i dont think u should reduce the weapon damage maybe buff it actually, with the multiple dots and with pillar of power soon able to crit, it might just help our damage overall if the scaling was increase overall, we dont have as much weapon damage as a gwf or gf i think ours is on par with the dc weapon damage if i remember correctly easier to work with what u have rather than rework powers and feats. Also y not give pillar of power a curse synergy effect to increase our damage?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    General improvements:
    Animations: speed up casting time of Harrow Storm, Gates of Hell, Soul Scorch, Tyranical Thread
    Remove Curse Consume effects, make it Curse Synergy for powers like Vapiric Embrance, And Hadar Grasp (Tab-HG-Tab...), Soul Scorch
    ...(more to add)

    Powers and classfeature:
    Wraith Shadow: Wraith Shadow debuff bug needs to get fixed, Wraith's Shadow's targetting circle does not ignore the presence of allies.
    Dread Theft should apply a lasting debuff for better group utility (penalty for personal dps and long CD)
    Tyrannical Thread: Places a Tyrannical Curse on your target, dealing 400% of your (buffed) weapondamage (4 ticks, as a DOT like Jagged Blades but more burst), Cursing them and increasing the damage they receive from you by 20%. Targets affected by Tyrannical Curse are damage linked, and deal 30% of the damage you deal to them to other targets within 30'.
    Deadly Curse: Your Warlock's Curse spreads a curse (20% damagebuff) towards targets not allready affected by your Warlock's Curse within 15` (20% damagebuff as aoe effect)
    All Consuming Curse: Your Powers now have a 33%/66%/100% chance to apply Lesser Curse, at rank 4 +50% damage.
    Warding Curse: Cursed targets deal 5/10/15/20% less damage to you.
    ...(more to add)

    Classmechanics and other stuff:
    A better proc-rate in general for: Critical promise, weapon enchants , Aura of Courage (more to add)
    A small buff towards Lesser Curse´s damage component, maybe make LC and procs scale better with buffs debuffs and power.
    Application of Warlocks Curse should be improved.
    ...(more to add)

    Fury:
    Morderous flame should buff fire damage from all encounter for 10-15%
    Critcal Promise needs a significant buff towards 50-75%, especially if procrate stays low on DOT´s and AoE
    Burning Soul needs a buff like 1% dps increase per spark, otherwise there is near no argument to run Soulbinder as dps at all, NPNM is too good to hold against.
    Infernal Wrath: increase dealt damage toward Lesser curse affected targets by 2/4/6/8/10%


    Damnation:
    Parting blasphemy: no clue , but at current state it´s underwhelmingly bad in a hole.
    Relentless curse: Warlocks Curse has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to apply Lesser curse within 15`arround the target
    Syphoning Curse: Cursed (any curse) Enemies get a damage debuff for 5/10/15/20/25%
    Spiritfire: Foes near your Soul Puppet now also take damage 15/30/45/60/75% of your Weapon Damage as Fire damage every second and are inflected with a DR-debuff for 2/4/6/8/10% towards group.
    Soul Investiture: no clue, maybe buffs your puppet once with an instant buff to max. by calling a puppet, or comlpletely overhaul that capstone maybe by stacking a selfbuff by the puppet in short time by simply hitting a target, like my GWF needs 6 seconds to stack selfbuffs from feats, I know not a very creative option...
    On top make the puppet scale with your base power and critrate to scale with upcoming content once and for all.
    If Soul Investiture is only buffed by getting more stacks the utility even gets worse because you get your max stacks/buff at the end off the fight, if at all
    ...(more to add)

    Temptation:
    Dark Revelry buffs the group for 25% of warlocks basepower, same feature like DC´s WoL and BoB, OP´s Aura gifts.
    Eldrichs momentum should stay as it is, maybe small Staminbuff or DR-Buff towards the group?
    Soul Breaker: When a foe dies within 30' of the Warlock, a random nearby ally gains 2/4/6/8/10% of their AP. Your Lesser Curse also causes the target to have 1/2/3/4/5% less Damage Resistance.

    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User
    bellkazi said:

    There aren't many options actually, and they rely on the artifact off hand power. You can either get a 5% severity with ACC or a max of 5% damage with Dust to dust.

    Dust to dust-7.5%
    The off-hand feature says it's up to a maximum of 5%, so would be 7.5% only if it's not WAD. I might be outdated on that since it's been really long since I tested that feature. But the text says 5% I'm almost sure. Still, you can get either the ACC one or the D2D one, not both. The other damaging one you are left with is deadly curse.
This discussion has been closed.