I would like our game to be less casual and I think raiding - although not called that - fleet actions maybe - would be a great way to do that.
Having said that, there are many people I assume that would not like that.
Right now, even though STO is cryptic's most itemized game, many of the stats are overcomplicated for people (in my experience) and I can think of some which are contradictory on items.
Additionally, like STFs there will be a ground element, and right now we just don't have a ton of gear slots to raid for.. sure you can min/max and get a full collection of all weapons then gear for your BOFFS but it is not the same imo. That makes things more casual for us than other raiding MMOs.
I think we will see better integrated Fleet actions in the future which you can queue for with a large group from your fleet - i.e. a guild raid so to speak.
I
Cryptic has a bad habit of equating challenge to mean making everything take longer ... so there is some fear that STO raid content might go that direction ... but I'm just pointing out that it doesn't have to.
.
this
it doesnt have to, but its cryptic - so it probibly would, raids can work, and be fun and short, or if made badly with little insentive to play and only at the end, so no one gets into them while leveling and used to playing like it then it wont work, i just dont think raids are what the game needs now, saying that a rly big raid to set off the introduction of the romulans could be epic, just get an iconian ship or 5 and use it to explain why the romulans are ramping up their military. but if that happened it would not be done in a way that pleased every one, o well
in most MMO's endgame is raiding group content for a piece of gear.
STO could blaze it's own trail with a territory control system that is player driven, much like eve online, where the endgame is all about entering wormholes, crafting and conquering sectors of space.
The beauty of that type of endgame is you don't wait for the next raid instance to be added to the game, your raid instance is another player's base, the loot rewards are the new ships, and gear holding a system to harvest valuable resources for crafting to build that gear is the raid.
A) Set-up time took only a few minutes Run times were less than 1 hour
C) The experience required more intelligence than simply not standing in fire
D) Gear and "Character Build" takes a back seat to intelligent play
You should give DDO a try then. PM me if you decide to and I'll gladly get you set up in some starter gear and help you work through the character creation for whatever style you would like to play.
A mission sequence for teams that does not feel like a pain would be good. Straightforward and no silly mechanics that generate frustrations and elitism and absolute demands for chat programs, a selective qualification trial, and rejections of the unworthy in the process.
Additionally, speaking of raids, humping some overbloated thing with all manner of ridiculous defenses and massive HP that demands ultra-linear tactics, is about as fun as banging the head into a brick wall, and hoping for inspired visions from the pain.
I had your original thoughts way back in 2008 when Cryptic had said they picked up STO and were working on it.
"Oh man, Star Trek raids!"
The Star Trek IP doesn't really lend itself very well to the idea of a raid that we know and understand. A Wolf 359 scenario would be nifty, we have the Crystalline Entity, and we have a few Fleet Actions that already would give the experience you're looking for (Big Dig anyone?). Those things don't become as apparent because it's content you're exposed to earlier than VA (or RA as in the days of old).
What the Star Trek IP does lend itself very well too though would be the territory control that's being tossed around. Can't wait for some of that. Course if done properly.
You should give DDO a try then. PM me if you decide to and I'll gladly get you set up in some starter gear and help you work through the character creation for whatever style you would like to play.
I have to agree here. DDO has some phenomenal raids and sequential content. The Vault of Night chain is awesome and it's raid content at level 10+.
I have to agree here. DDO has some phenomenal raids and sequential content. The Vault of Night chain is awesome.
I would highly recommend people who dislike raids to go give DDO a spin and experience the raid content.
I would also suggest the Cryptic devs do so to get an idea of how raid content can be implemented for the adult audience who can't give the long hours that used to be the norm. Or to see how to make content difficult and interesting without making it mindlessly take forever.
But ... I guess first Cryptic needs to add content, because I suspect the real reason much of the content in game is set up to take a long time is to mask the fact that there isn't all that much to do when you get right down to it. It's a common MMO trick that you add in extra time wherever you can ... any time sink you can because the longer it takes players to accomplish something, the more likely they stay subbed for one more month ... that mentality really needs to go the way of the dodo
that mentality really needs to go the way of the dodo
One might argue that the mentality needs to shift to the way of the "ddo"
Yeah, DDO has some of the most enjoyable raid content I've played in a game: it's not even entirely combat oriented either (they have traps to solve that are not required to dismantle but make it easier).
I think a good STO raid would have the following:
Career-specific objectives that aren't required but do make the mission easier (thus encouraging every career track; DDO does this)
Shorter emphasis (i.e. 45 minutes for the average playthrough)
Less mob oriented and more puzzle and boss-ifhgt mechanic oriented (a clever opponent is more common in Trek than an angry mob of redshirts).
Early entry period (get STF/Fleet Actions encouraged at earlier levels)
One might argue that the mentality needs to shift to the way of the "ddo"
Yeah, DDO has some of the most enjoyable raid content I've played in a game: it's not even entirely combat oriented either (they have traps to solve that are not required to dismantle but make it easier).
I think a good STO raid would have the following:
Career-specific objectives that aren't required but do make the mission easier (thus encouraging every career track; DDO does this)
Shorter emphasis (i.e. 45 minutes for the average playthrough)
Less mob oriented and more puzzle and boss-ifhgt mechanic oriented (a clever opponent is more common in Trek than an angry mob of redshirts).
Early entry period (get STF/Fleet Actions encouraged at earlier levels)
Agreed 100% ... DDO introduces Raids at level 6 and has raids all through the level range.
Heck, I would volunteer to write and storyboard raids for Cryptic for something reasonably above minimum wage.
This is only because the redshirts get killed too fast to form a mob
And because Trek originally had a very limited budget, and extras are expensive. Much better to use reusable props and have the enemies be clever. Harder for the writers, much easier for the budget
WoW is number one because it's accessible and the gameplay is very smooth. It replaced grinding with questing and made it a much more interesting experience for the players. The popularity of the IP didn't hurt either. It is NOT a sccess because of it's raid content. If that were the case, EQ1 would have been a lot more popular than it was.
They did those things as well, yes. I won't dispute that. However, the raids draw a good chunk of the player base to them. They are the basis of guilds which do nothing but prepare for their next raid. That's a market share cryptic would be wise to exploit. The fact that they advance the story with every expac or major publish doesn't hurt, either. They present an epic 'the player is important to the lore' aspect.
Imagine being able to help Captain Data of the Enterprise, or Admiral Janeway, or even Kurland, of the Defiant.
I dont know about the rest of the community but I think that something missing from Star Trek Online are full raids. I know I have heared that Cryptic is never going to introduce them in STO because they want to make things fairly easy for the players. However there are players who are looking for something that will truely challenge their abilities in game. I personally think raids are the perfect way to go about doing that.
Stfs are sort of raids and its 5 man teams.
I would never like to see a STF with more than 5 ppl as it stands now.
However a cordinated space battle with more than 5 ppl to 10 ppl would be a nice thing.
along as its not forced participation.
The stfs are a good way to have similarity of a raid but smaller.
They dont take all of your Night time away and dosent Force you to participate.
I rather see to it they add more stfs and polish them up than add another world of warcraft copy of 10 man raids wich takes ur life away.
Also would like to see more Episodes mission they are far better to have fun in
than a 10 man raid with ur hands all shaky and ready for a mistake and whipe or sucess.
Now when I say raids for STO what Im talking about is something thats harder and longer than the current STFs with ( up to ) 10 bosses. Each of these bosses would have a loot table with items that would be class specific. Like a sniper rifle thats has stats designed for a Tac Officer to use, or a tricorder design for a Sci Officer, or personal shields desing for an Engineer Officer.
The STFs atm is not too long and not too short.
Adding more bosses into them without addint to their length of completion will make it a boss grind feast im afraid. Seen that allready in many games Lineage 2, Aion, Lotro its not a preatty sight always.
Class Specified items could be usefull. Besides Kits
Up the difficulty on the bosses. Lets have something more than just a pew pew fest on bosses. Make the bosses in the raid have a strategy to them. Things have to be done in a certain way, or in a certain patern. And everyone has to knoe excatly what to do in when to do it. Should things not happen that way the raid wipes and youll have to start that boss fight again.
Adding more variation to bosses might be apriciated.
some bosses atm in STFs like Donatra in KA is like a evil circle u do the same thing over and over i sleep through that one every day. so variation would be cool to have.
Raids as they are designed in other games, don't really have a place in STO. The Developers should instead take another look at Fleet Actions and improve that experience. These large scale encounters suit the more casual playerbase much better than EQ/WoW style "raid" content. We really need community content and not content that creates elitist microcosms as WoW raiding has done.
I absolutely agree, STO should stay accessible for anyone and not be another playground for a small group to feel better than everyone else. There are enough other games that support such a elitism, STO should not become one of those games.
I absolutely agree, STO should stay accessible for anyone and not be another playground for a small group to feel better than everyone else. There are enough other games that support such a elitism, STO should not become one of those games.
Live long and prosper.
There are ways of doing raids without the elitism of GearScores or time-commitments that the old 40-man raids inspired.
As noted earlier, DDO's raids are top notch and accessible. There's no elitist culture: just people helping each other out. It may be due to DDO's communtiy being fairly close-knit back when I played (it was right after the F2P hybrid conversion).
Aside from The Pit. **** that dungeon. Its sole purpose is to **** with players. Seriously, that map I posted doesn't even do the convoluted layout justice.
I think larger raids would be a good thing. 5-man teams are rather limiting. Even with fleet actions where you can have 20+ people in an instance, you are still limited to 5 people per team. I don't see a problem with having more options for players. Gozer has said that MMOs are like a buffet, a little something for everyone. There's PVE, PVP, fleet actions, STFs. I don't know why people have a problem with more options (although I think the STFs are the closest thing in STO to a raid). Don't like the STFs? then don't play them. It's not like they are required for you to level or progress. Same goes for PVP. Same goes for diplomatic missions. Same goes for fleet actions.
One should never be required to schedule their life around a video game.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. When you get together with a bunch of friends to go catch a movie, do you not "schedule" it? Is there not a designated time and place that it starts? Do not all your friends have to agree on the specific showing you are all going to go see? Doing a raid is not that much different conceptually. A raid is simply a leisure activity involving several people except you are playing a video game online with them.
I absolutely agree, STO should stay accessible for anyone and not be another playground for a small group to feel better than everyone else. There are enough other games that support such a elitism, STO should not become one of those games.
Live long and prosper.
Again, how is having more options a bad thing? I personally don't think that it will support elitism, especially if done correctly. They should put in raids at various different levels, accessible by all players. If this is implemented, there really shouldn't be any elitism. For example, Champions has 5-man "Lairs" to run starting at level 23. I would hardly say that there is a reputation there for elitism.
There are ways of doing raids without the elitism of GearScores or time-commitments that the old 40-man raids inspired.
As noted earlier, DDO's raids are top notch and accessible. There's no elitist culture: just people helping each other out. It may be due to DDO's communtiy being fairly close-knit back when I played (it was right after the F2P hybrid conversion).
Aside from The Pit. **** that dungeon. Its sole purpose is to **** with players. Seriously, that map I posted doesn't even do the convoluted layout justice.
The Pit wasn't that bad ... as long as you were prepared for it and knew how to read the lights. The first couple times it was awful, but once I solo'd it and took the time to learn it, can take a group through (including all the optionals) in 30-45 minutes.
I think larger raids would be a good thing. 5-man teams are rather limiting. Even with fleet actions where you can have 20+ people in an instance, you are still limited to 5 people per team. I don't see a problem with having more options for players. Gozer has said that MMOs are like a buffet, a little something for everyone. There's PVE, PVP, fleet actions, STFs. I don't know why people have a problem with more options (although I think the STFs are the closest thing in STO to a raid). Don't like the STFs? then don't play them. It's not like they are required for you to level or progress. Same goes for PVP. Same goes for diplomatic missions. Same goes for fleet actions.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. When you get together with a bunch of friends to go catch a movie, do you not "schedule" it? Is there not a designated time and place that it starts? Do not all your friends have to agree on the specific showing you are all going to go see? Doing a raid is not that much different conceptually. A raid is simply a leisure activity involving several people except you are playing a video game online with them.
Again, how is having more options a bad thing? I personally don't think that it will support elitism, especially if done correctly. They should put in raids at various different levels, accessible by all players. If this is implemented, there really shouldn't be any elitism. For example, Champions has 5-man "Lairs" to run starting at level 23. I would hardly say that there is a reputation there for elitism.
Exactly. Having content for 10 people which is accessible shouldn't be a problem for anyone ... but even if someone just wants to solo or only do small group content, the attitude that their play style has to be pushed on everyone else is really a pretty lame position to take.
If there is Star Trek themed "raids" made with the kind of care and attention as the DDO raids are ... it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. If you don't want to put that level of effort in, then don't. Nobody forces you to do anything you don't want to do.
But just because you don't want to do something does not mean that your personal preferences should be the only thing available.
Quite frankly, the idea that everyone should conform to a small group of players "ideal" is highly offensive. It smacks of the same sort of elitism that they are complaining about. The irony is staggering.
However, I think that Fleet Actions could be improved to provide that 'WoW Raid' feel, especially if they made it so a new instance would be created for large groups (like Fleets), that wanted to take on the challenges.
You know...I really like Liverwurst. Not many people do, but there those of us that savor the flavor of a good liverwurst on rye with swiss. And to find a store that sells it...yum. But if someone who didn't like liverwurst were to tell the store manager..."NO, I DON'T WANT THAT STUFF IN THIS STORE", its nice to know that the manager would have the sense to say, "Hey, there are other coldcuts available for you to buy, if you don't like the liverwurst...don't eat it." And so, I say the same thing with STFs and other possible future raidlike content, if they add it...it won't do you any harm. So don't limit other's choices if those choices aren't hurting you or the game.:D
You know...I really like Liverwurst. Not many people do, but there those of us that savor the flavor of a good liverwurst on rye with swiss. And to find a store that sells it...yum. But if someone who didn't like liverwurst were to tell the store manager..."NO, I DON'T WANT THAT STUFF IN THIS STORE", its nice to know that the manager would have the sense to say, "Hey, there are other coldcuts available for you to buy, if you don't like the liverwurst...don't eat it." And so, I say the same thing with STFs and other possible future raidlike content, if they add it...it won't do you any harm. So don't limit other's choices if those choices aren't hurting you or the game.:D
Well said.
I think it's worth noting that the people who seem so vehemently opposed to raid content are making arguments against a certain style of content. I would be a considerable amount of Gold Pressed Latinum that if we got raids similar to DDO raids, these very people would really enjoy it.
I'm reminded of an anecdote from my childhood. I had a bad experience with an egg roll when I was about 6 years old, and when I was 7 I ended up living with my aunt and uncle for a short time. They came back from the store one day with a package of those pastries that look kind of like egg roll's but have a light frosty filling inside.
They had enough for everyone to have 3 each, but I kept on refusing to try one because they looked like that egg roll I had a bad experience with. Finally, when only one was left, I tried it and it was fantastic. Then I was bummed out because I missed out on having more because of my stubborn refusal to try it in the first place.
On an interestingly related note, I also like egg rolls now.
Hopefully this anecdote illustrates my point adequately?
You know...I really like Liverwurst. Not many people do, but there those of us that savor the flavor of a good liverwurst on rye with swiss. And to find a store that sells it...yum. But if someone who didn't like liverwurst were to tell the store manager..."NO, I DON'T WANT THAT STUFF IN THIS STORE", its nice to know that the manager would have the sense to say, "Hey, there are other coldcuts available for you to buy, if you don't like the liverwurst...don't eat it." And so, I say the same thing with STFs and other possible future raidlike content, if they add it...it won't do you any harm. So don't limit other's choices if those choices aren't hurting you or the game.:D
Sadly thats not true what ur saying.
If they added a 10 man raid it would hurt ppl who dont like it or simply cannot do them due to less play time or even skill.
Couse the items u get from the 10 man would proboly be better than the ones from 5 man STFs.
therefor it will hurt them in more ways than u can imagine.
unless they make so the items u get from the 10 man raid is same from 5 man STFs.
and we all know the story about World of warcraft and The city of wonder.
Why do a 10 man raid when u can do a 5 man raid with same loot and less time.
or the Oposit order Why do 5 man STFs when u can do 10 man for better stuff.
the paradox and complexity of this issue is far more than u ever imagined it to be.
As it stands now a major league of players can still do and enjoy STFs in the current model they are wich is as following.
5 man team.
45min to 5 hours depending on skill gear and pace.
decently skilled encounters could use tweaks.
Majority of players can do them even if limited play time.
So it would be the best game card to play for Cryptic to keep the STFs rolling and Fix them up and produce more instead of manufacture a vivid dream of 10 man spectacular raids wich will proboly lose 50% of the total population.
wich will proboly turn Sto to DUST.
Therefor my vote is still Nay No and Niet to Raids larger than 5 players and completion time of maximum 45min-5 hours.
If they added a 10 man raid it would hurt ppl who dont like it or simply cannot do them due to less play time or even skill.
Couse the items u get from the 10 man would proboly be better than the ones from 5 man STFs.
therefor it will hurt them in more ways than u can imagine.
unless they make so the items u get from the 10 man raid is same from 5 man STFs.
and we all know the story about World of warcraft and The city of wonder.
Why do a 10 man raid when u can do a 5 man raid with same loot and less time.
or the Oposit order Why do 5 man STFs when u can do 10 man for better stuff.
the paradox and complexity of this issue is far more than u ever imagined it to be.
Therefor my vote is still Nay No and Niet.
Well, to that I say I am looking foward to Liverwurst.;)
If they added a 10 man raid it would hurt ppl who dont like it or simply cannot do them due to less play time or even skill.
Couse the items u get from the 10 man would proboly be better than the ones from 5 man STFs.
therefor it will hurt them in more ways than u can imagine.
unless they make so the items u get from the 10 man raid is same from 5 man STFs.
and we all know the story about World of warcraft and The city of wonder.
Why do a 10 man raid when u can do a 5 man raid with same loot and less time.
or the Oposit order Why do 5 man STFs when u can do 10 man for better stuff.
the paradox and complexity of this issue is far more than u ever imagined it to be.
As it stands now a major league of players can still do and enjoy STFs in the current model they are wich is as following.
5 man team.
45min to 5 hours depending on skill gear and pace.
decently skilled encounters could use tweaks.
Majority of players can do them even if limited play time.
So it would be the best game card to play for Cryptic to keep the STFs rolling and Fix them up and produce more instead of manufacture a vivid dream of 10 man spectacular raids wich will proboly lose 50% of the total population.
wich will proboly turn Sto to DUST.
Therefor my vote is still Nay No and Niet to Raids larger than 5 players and completion time of maximum 45min-5 hours.
Slippery Slope Fallacy anyone? If you read the entire thread, you will see that another mmo has already made raids which are completed routinely in a short period of time by random people who aren't in the same guild.
Slippery Slope Fallacy anyone? If you read the entire thread, you will see that another mmo has already made raids which are completed routinely in a short period of time by random people who aren't in the same guild.
Yes i know.
and i also know that there isent 10 man ppl from random guilds online at all times.
therefor ur limiting ppl to only enjoy it when the server is at its peak with popualation.
and also if its 101 players always 1 will be left out.
if its 59 players 9 ppl will be left out.
get the idea and the point ?
the 5 man Idea of STFs is whats makes it brilliant and good.
its short amount of ppl and its viable for most ppl.
and still ur quote dont explain the loot issues.
10 man vs 5 man.
i doubt u would want to be on the team with 5 man items just couse u had work or babies or girlfriends.
while the elite ppl with unlimited time has the 10 man items wich is far superior to urs and kicks ur TRIBBLE ?
think about the other side.
So still Voteing Niet No Nada
its good to speak of this issues but try to understand the complexity of the situation as well while u speak of it.
casting words like "this game has suceeded for a short period of time with random things"
dont really apply to our game couse its diffrent.
the ideas are good but try to fit it to the picture instead of hammer it in with those remarks my friends.
Rather have a bunch of well made thought out missions and STFs than a grand raid with ppl fighting over spots gearscore accolades etc etc etc.
i dont wanna be the doom bringer.
but to many games have lost majority of its players and its Normal players due to that type of thinking.
Star trek online has so far been able give both elite and non elite players acess to all aspects of the game.
let them continue on that path so we all can enjoy it with same benefits and same chances.
getting a raid instance with superior items will kick the lower experianced players and community out and make them feel bad and stop playing.
game becomes a ghost town and thats it.
where to buy ur things where to get ur friends if its dead.
and i also know that there isent 10 man ppl from random guilds online at all times.
therefor ur limiting ppl to only enjoy it when the server is at its peak with popualation.
and also if its 101 players always 1 will be left out.
if its 59 players 9 ppl will be left out.
get the idea and the point ?
I'll never be able to afford a Ferrari, does that mean nobody should have one? I can't afford to travel the world on a whim, does that mean nobody should?
As for your PvP comment, release new PvP items that can only be obtained through equal effort in PvP. Problem solved.
and i also know that there isent 10 man ppl from random guilds online at all times.
therefor ur limiting ppl to only enjoy it when the server is at its peak with popualation.
and also if its 101 players always 1 will be left out.
if its 59 players 9 ppl will be left out.
get the idea and the point ?
the 5 man Idea of STFs is whats makes it brilliant and good.
its short amount of ppl and its viable for most ppl.
and still ur quote dont explain the loot issues.
10 man vs 5 man.
i doubt u would want to be on the team with 5 man items just couse u had work or babies or girlfriends.
while the elite ppl with unlimited time has the 10 man items wich is far superior to urs and kicks ur TRIBBLE ?
think about the other side.
You are arguing that potential worst case scenario (an uneven number of people available who all want to raid at exactly the same time) is going to be the standard case. You also argued that things which you think are problems would automatically be problems with whatever endgame "raids" got implemented in STO, and as a result 50% of the players would leave ... that is what I mean by slippery slope. You have made a series of worst case predictions which cannot be supported.
I can tell you from experience in DDO, where the population is split amongst different servers and there are far fewer people available to group with, I have never had any trouble finding a raid when I wanted one. If I have insomnia and I want a raid at 4:30 in the morning, there will be one going or I can put up an LFM and my raid group fills rapidly.
And as for loot ... nobody knows what will happen with STO loot. But you seem to be of the opinion that everyone should all just be given the same exact loot and that there should be no variety because it's not "fair" for someone who invests more to have more.
The game is already set up in this way. An actual endgame would not change anything in this regard. Either people would do the missions or they wouldn't. If it is properly implemented on cryptic's part, there will be nobody to blame but the individual player if they choose not to take advantage of the content. Really, you can stumble into a group of 9 other people ... unless you are antisocial and tend to alienate people ... in which case I would question whether an online multiplayer game is really your cup of tea in the first place.
But I do know from observation and experience that raiding content can be implemented in such a way that the only people who get "left behind" are in that position because they stubbornly refuse to try. Please read my anecdote above.
And I have thought about the "other side". People like you want to enforce your play preferences upon everyone else. If it's not something you want to do, then you want for everyone else to have a game that only has the things you want to do and nothing more.
I'm perfectly fine with the game having things I don't care to experience. In fact, I'm not even really that interested in playing the KDF, but I'd like to see that faction become a full faction so that the people who DO want to play klingons have something better ... even though because of limited developer resources that means I will have to get less that I want.
The bottom line is that there is not really anything for you to do once you hit VA and grind out the few rewards you didn't get along the way. Putting in a series of missions that take 5-10 people to complete, which require teamwork, smarts, and co-ordination and provide a challenge to people who have done everything else ... what's wrong with that?
Seems to me that the people arguing against it don't have anything to say other than "I don't like raids, so you should get to do what you like, you have to play the game I want and nothing more!". If we applied this standard evenly, we wouldn't have a game, because between all of us, I am sure you can find at least one person who dislikes everything in the game (by which I mean that combined everything in the game is covered, not that any one person hates it all).
and i also know that there isent 10 man ppl from random guilds online at all times.
therefor ur limiting ppl to only enjoy it when the server is at its peak with popualation.
and also if its 101 players always 1 will be left out.
if its 59 players 9 ppl will be left out.
get the idea and the point ?
the 5 man Idea of STFs is whats makes it brilliant and good.
its short amount of ppl and its viable for most ppl.
and still ur quote dont explain the loot issues.
10 man vs 5 man.
i doubt u would want to be on the team with 5 man items just couse u had work or babies or girlfriends.
while the elite ppl with unlimited time has the 10 man items wich is far superior to urs and kicks ur TRIBBLE ?
think about the other side.
So still Voteing Niet No Nada
its good to speak of this issues but try to understand the complexity of the situation as well while u speak of it.
casting words like "this game has suceeded for a short period of time with random things"
dont really apply to our game couse its diffrent.
the ideas are good but try to fit it to the picture instead of hammer it in with those remarks my friends.
So, let me get this straight...if there are 10 man STFs....not all will be able to have the chance to do them due to lack of opportunities to find a team? There is a flaw in your logic. For one, there are some people that do STFs...not for the gear...but for the challenge. And those people tend to get people inexperienced in STFs to walk threm through. See my signature for example. And another thing is this, STFs and their respective rewards aren't time limited. Unlike the rewards from the end of a featured series arc., you aren't in a rush to get all the STFs done for the overall reward. Anyone else have something to add? This turning into one intriguing discussion.
i leave the discussion to the makers at cryptic.
if they have a take on this let them duke the final printing of it.
i just hope they polish the missions and Stfs and Episodes.
before they start on this path of world of warcraft.
IF they even start on it at all wich so far they been wise to avoid like the plague.
Comments
Having said that, there are many people I assume that would not like that.
Right now, even though STO is cryptic's most itemized game, many of the stats are overcomplicated for people (in my experience) and I can think of some which are contradictory on items.
Additionally, like STFs there will be a ground element, and right now we just don't have a ton of gear slots to raid for.. sure you can min/max and get a full collection of all weapons then gear for your BOFFS but it is not the same imo. That makes things more casual for us than other raiding MMOs.
I think we will see better integrated Fleet actions in the future which you can queue for with a large group from your fleet - i.e. a guild raid so to speak.
this
it doesnt have to, but its cryptic - so it probibly would, raids can work, and be fun and short, or if made badly with little insentive to play and only at the end, so no one gets into them while leveling and used to playing like it then it wont work, i just dont think raids are what the game needs now, saying that a rly big raid to set off the introduction of the romulans could be epic, just get an iconian ship or 5 and use it to explain why the romulans are ramping up their military. but if that happened it would not be done in a way that pleased every one, o well
in most MMO's endgame is raiding group content for a piece of gear.
STO could blaze it's own trail with a territory control system that is player driven, much like eve online, where the endgame is all about entering wormholes, crafting and conquering sectors of space.
The beauty of that type of endgame is you don't wait for the next raid instance to be added to the game, your raid instance is another player's base, the loot rewards are the new ships, and gear holding a system to harvest valuable resources for crafting to build that gear is the raid.
You should give DDO a try then. PM me if you decide to and I'll gladly get you set up in some starter gear and help you work through the character creation for whatever style you would like to play.
Additionally, speaking of raids, humping some overbloated thing with all manner of ridiculous defenses and massive HP that demands ultra-linear tactics, is about as fun as banging the head into a brick wall, and hoping for inspired visions from the pain.
---
"Oh man, Star Trek raids!"
The Star Trek IP doesn't really lend itself very well to the idea of a raid that we know and understand. A Wolf 359 scenario would be nifty, we have the Crystalline Entity, and we have a few Fleet Actions that already would give the experience you're looking for (Big Dig anyone?). Those things don't become as apparent because it's content you're exposed to earlier than VA (or RA as in the days of old).
What the Star Trek IP does lend itself very well too though would be the territory control that's being tossed around. Can't wait for some of that. Course if done properly.
I have to agree here. DDO has some phenomenal raids and sequential content. The Vault of Night chain is awesome and it's raid content at level 10+.
I would highly recommend people who dislike raids to go give DDO a spin and experience the raid content.
I would also suggest the Cryptic devs do so to get an idea of how raid content can be implemented for the adult audience who can't give the long hours that used to be the norm. Or to see how to make content difficult and interesting without making it mindlessly take forever.
But ... I guess first Cryptic needs to add content, because I suspect the real reason much of the content in game is set up to take a long time is to mask the fact that there isn't all that much to do when you get right down to it. It's a common MMO trick that you add in extra time wherever you can ... any time sink you can because the longer it takes players to accomplish something, the more likely they stay subbed for one more month ... that mentality really needs to go the way of the dodo
Yeah, DDO has some of the most enjoyable raid content I've played in a game: it's not even entirely combat oriented either (they have traps to solve that are not required to dismantle but make it easier).
I think a good STO raid would have the following:
Agreed 100% ... DDO introduces Raids at level 6 and has raids all through the level range.
Heck, I would volunteer to write and storyboard raids for Cryptic for something reasonably above minimum wage.
This is only because the redshirts get killed too fast to form a mob
And because Trek originally had a very limited budget, and extras are expensive. Much better to use reusable props and have the enemies be clever. Harder for the writers, much easier for the budget
They did those things as well, yes. I won't dispute that. However, the raids draw a good chunk of the player base to them. They are the basis of guilds which do nothing but prepare for their next raid. That's a market share cryptic would be wise to exploit. The fact that they advance the story with every expac or major publish doesn't hurt, either. They present an epic 'the player is important to the lore' aspect.
Imagine being able to help Captain Data of the Enterprise, or Admiral Janeway, or even Kurland, of the Defiant.
Stfs are sort of raids and its 5 man teams.
I would never like to see a STF with more than 5 ppl as it stands now.
However a cordinated space battle with more than 5 ppl to 10 ppl would be a nice thing.
along as its not forced participation.
The stfs are a good way to have similarity of a raid but smaller.
They dont take all of your Night time away and dosent Force you to participate.
I rather see to it they add more stfs and polish them up than add another world of warcraft copy of 10 man raids wich takes ur life away.
Also would like to see more Episodes mission they are far better to have fun in
than a 10 man raid with ur hands all shaky and ready for a mistake and whipe or sucess.
The STFs atm is not too long and not too short.
Adding more bosses into them without addint to their length of completion will make it a boss grind feast im afraid. Seen that allready in many games Lineage 2, Aion, Lotro its not a preatty sight always.
Class Specified items could be usefull. Besides Kits
Adding more variation to bosses might be apriciated.
some bosses atm in STFs like Donatra in KA is like a evil circle u do the same thing over and over i sleep through that one every day. so variation would be cool to have.
In short My vote for raids in Sto is No.
With Best regards LtEliz
Live long and prosper.
There are ways of doing raids without the elitism of GearScores or time-commitments that the old 40-man raids inspired.
As noted earlier, DDO's raids are top notch and accessible. There's no elitist culture: just people helping each other out. It may be due to DDO's communtiy being fairly close-knit back when I played (it was right after the F2P hybrid conversion).
Aside from The Pit. **** that dungeon. Its sole purpose is to **** with players. Seriously, that map I posted doesn't even do the convoluted layout justice.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. When you get together with a bunch of friends to go catch a movie, do you not "schedule" it? Is there not a designated time and place that it starts? Do not all your friends have to agree on the specific showing you are all going to go see? Doing a raid is not that much different conceptually. A raid is simply a leisure activity involving several people except you are playing a video game online with them.
Again, how is having more options a bad thing? I personally don't think that it will support elitism, especially if done correctly. They should put in raids at various different levels, accessible by all players. If this is implemented, there really shouldn't be any elitism. For example, Champions has 5-man "Lairs" to run starting at level 23. I would hardly say that there is a reputation there for elitism.
The Pit wasn't that bad ... as long as you were prepared for it and knew how to read the lights. The first couple times it was awful, but once I solo'd it and took the time to learn it, can take a group through (including all the optionals) in 30-45 minutes.
Exactly. Having content for 10 people which is accessible shouldn't be a problem for anyone ... but even if someone just wants to solo or only do small group content, the attitude that their play style has to be pushed on everyone else is really a pretty lame position to take.
If there is Star Trek themed "raids" made with the kind of care and attention as the DDO raids are ... it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. If you don't want to put that level of effort in, then don't. Nobody forces you to do anything you don't want to do.
But just because you don't want to do something does not mean that your personal preferences should be the only thing available.
Quite frankly, the idea that everyone should conform to a small group of players "ideal" is highly offensive. It smacks of the same sort of elitism that they are complaining about. The irony is staggering.
However, I think that Fleet Actions could be improved to provide that 'WoW Raid' feel, especially if they made it so a new instance would be created for large groups (like Fleets), that wanted to take on the challenges.
Well said.
I think it's worth noting that the people who seem so vehemently opposed to raid content are making arguments against a certain style of content. I would be a considerable amount of Gold Pressed Latinum that if we got raids similar to DDO raids, these very people would really enjoy it.
I'm reminded of an anecdote from my childhood. I had a bad experience with an egg roll when I was about 6 years old, and when I was 7 I ended up living with my aunt and uncle for a short time. They came back from the store one day with a package of those pastries that look kind of like egg roll's but have a light frosty filling inside.
They had enough for everyone to have 3 each, but I kept on refusing to try one because they looked like that egg roll I had a bad experience with. Finally, when only one was left, I tried it and it was fantastic. Then I was bummed out because I missed out on having more because of my stubborn refusal to try it in the first place.
On an interestingly related note, I also like egg rolls now.
Hopefully this anecdote illustrates my point adequately?
Sadly thats not true what ur saying.
If they added a 10 man raid it would hurt ppl who dont like it or simply cannot do them due to less play time or even skill.
Couse the items u get from the 10 man would proboly be better than the ones from 5 man STFs.
therefor it will hurt them in more ways than u can imagine.
unless they make so the items u get from the 10 man raid is same from 5 man STFs.
and we all know the story about World of warcraft and The city of wonder.
Why do a 10 man raid when u can do a 5 man raid with same loot and less time.
or the Oposit order Why do 5 man STFs when u can do 10 man for better stuff.
the paradox and complexity of this issue is far more than u ever imagined it to be.
As it stands now a major league of players can still do and enjoy STFs in the current model they are wich is as following.
5 man team.
45min to 5 hours depending on skill gear and pace.
decently skilled encounters could use tweaks.
Majority of players can do them even if limited play time.
So it would be the best game card to play for Cryptic to keep the STFs rolling and Fix them up and produce more instead of manufacture a vivid dream of 10 man spectacular raids wich will proboly lose 50% of the total population.
wich will proboly turn Sto to DUST.
Therefor my vote is still Nay No and Niet to Raids larger than 5 players and completion time of maximum 45min-5 hours.
Well, to that I say I am looking foward to Liverwurst.;)
Edited my older post.
and to ur quote i dont understand it.
u looking forward to end of sto ?
or to eat liverwurst ? ;I?
Slippery Slope Fallacy anyone? If you read the entire thread, you will see that another mmo has already made raids which are completed routinely in a short period of time by random people who aren't in the same guild.
Yes i know.
and i also know that there isent 10 man ppl from random guilds online at all times.
therefor ur limiting ppl to only enjoy it when the server is at its peak with popualation.
and also if its 101 players always 1 will be left out.
if its 59 players 9 ppl will be left out.
get the idea and the point ?
the 5 man Idea of STFs is whats makes it brilliant and good.
its short amount of ppl and its viable for most ppl.
and still ur quote dont explain the loot issues.
10 man vs 5 man.
i doubt u would want to be on the team with 5 man items just couse u had work or babies or girlfriends.
while the elite ppl with unlimited time has the 10 man items wich is far superior to urs and kicks ur TRIBBLE ?
think about the other side.
So still Voteing Niet No Nada
its good to speak of this issues but try to understand the complexity of the situation as well while u speak of it.
casting words like "this game has suceeded for a short period of time with random things"
dont really apply to our game couse its diffrent.
the ideas are good but try to fit it to the picture instead of hammer it in with those remarks my friends.
Rather have a bunch of well made thought out missions and STFs than a grand raid with ppl fighting over spots gearscore accolades etc etc etc.
i dont wanna be the doom bringer.
but to many games have lost majority of its players and its Normal players due to that type of thinking.
Star trek online has so far been able give both elite and non elite players acess to all aspects of the game.
let them continue on that path so we all can enjoy it with same benefits and same chances.
getting a raid instance with superior items will kick the lower experianced players and community out and make them feel bad and stop playing.
game becomes a ghost town and thats it.
where to buy ur things where to get ur friends if its dead.
I'll never be able to afford a Ferrari, does that mean nobody should have one? I can't afford to travel the world on a whim, does that mean nobody should?
As for your PvP comment, release new PvP items that can only be obtained through equal effort in PvP. Problem solved.
You are arguing that potential worst case scenario (an uneven number of people available who all want to raid at exactly the same time) is going to be the standard case. You also argued that things which you think are problems would automatically be problems with whatever endgame "raids" got implemented in STO, and as a result 50% of the players would leave ... that is what I mean by slippery slope. You have made a series of worst case predictions which cannot be supported.
I can tell you from experience in DDO, where the population is split amongst different servers and there are far fewer people available to group with, I have never had any trouble finding a raid when I wanted one. If I have insomnia and I want a raid at 4:30 in the morning, there will be one going or I can put up an LFM and my raid group fills rapidly.
And as for loot ... nobody knows what will happen with STO loot. But you seem to be of the opinion that everyone should all just be given the same exact loot and that there should be no variety because it's not "fair" for someone who invests more to have more.
The game is already set up in this way. An actual endgame would not change anything in this regard. Either people would do the missions or they wouldn't. If it is properly implemented on cryptic's part, there will be nobody to blame but the individual player if they choose not to take advantage of the content. Really, you can stumble into a group of 9 other people ... unless you are antisocial and tend to alienate people ... in which case I would question whether an online multiplayer game is really your cup of tea in the first place.
But I do know from observation and experience that raiding content can be implemented in such a way that the only people who get "left behind" are in that position because they stubbornly refuse to try. Please read my anecdote above.
And I have thought about the "other side". People like you want to enforce your play preferences upon everyone else. If it's not something you want to do, then you want for everyone else to have a game that only has the things you want to do and nothing more.
I'm perfectly fine with the game having things I don't care to experience. In fact, I'm not even really that interested in playing the KDF, but I'd like to see that faction become a full faction so that the people who DO want to play klingons have something better ... even though because of limited developer resources that means I will have to get less that I want.
The bottom line is that there is not really anything for you to do once you hit VA and grind out the few rewards you didn't get along the way. Putting in a series of missions that take 5-10 people to complete, which require teamwork, smarts, and co-ordination and provide a challenge to people who have done everything else ... what's wrong with that?
Seems to me that the people arguing against it don't have anything to say other than "I don't like raids, so you should get to do what you like, you have to play the game I want and nothing more!". If we applied this standard evenly, we wouldn't have a game, because between all of us, I am sure you can find at least one person who dislikes everything in the game (by which I mean that combined everything in the game is covered, not that any one person hates it all).
So, let me get this straight...if there are 10 man STFs....not all will be able to have the chance to do them due to lack of opportunities to find a team? There is a flaw in your logic. For one, there are some people that do STFs...not for the gear...but for the challenge. And those people tend to get people inexperienced in STFs to walk threm through. See my signature for example. And another thing is this, STFs and their respective rewards aren't time limited. Unlike the rewards from the end of a featured series arc., you aren't in a rush to get all the STFs done for the overall reward. Anyone else have something to add? This turning into one intriguing discussion.
if they have a take on this let them duke the final printing of it.
i just hope they polish the missions and Stfs and Episodes.
before they start on this path of world of warcraft.
IF they even start on it at all wich so far they been wise to avoid like the plague.