Turbine press release said 500% increase in revenues AFTER changing to F2P.
Of course DDO has more things going for it than STO does at the moment, content for example.
They likely made the change because they realized that DDO was competing in an already saturated market (fantasy based MMOs). When they went F2P, it gave people incentive to try it out "hey, why not, its free".
It turns out that DDO is actually a pretty fun game. STO is not (in my opinion, and the majority of the gaming community's).
I'll be honest, this game isn't really bad but if it wasn't Star Trek I probably wouldn't have re-subbed. A lot of people think STO is the worst thing they've ever seen, which for me isn't true, but it just isn't there for a really good game yet. But I'm willing to keep subbing until the summer to see if they can pull off Season 2. However even Star Trek can't save my interest if Season 2 only has a few new missions and maybe a minigame. What would save it I think is something like this:
Still a huge lie on your part because your sig states you cancelled your STO subscription. If you are indeed still on the free time that came with the purchase of your copy of the game you have never had a subscription that could be cancelled.
Before you can cancel a subscription you first have to be paying a subscription fee. All you have done is told Cryptic that you won't be activating your subscription once your free time expires. Claiming that you cancelled something that you never started is still a lie.
:rolleyes:
I have canceled a subscription. If I didn't cancel, I would be auto-billed on or around the beginning of May 2010. Do you think I have to enable billing to be billed - is that how it works in your fantasy make believe world of how billing works? Please make up something else that I've lied about.
Allods and Free Realms aren't really good examples. I acutally like both games, but Free Realms is subscription based these days if you want to get above level 5 and has a cash shop. It also doesn't have much depth, its a kids playground. Allods is the nearest to a WoW clone I've ever seen and its actually the most expensive MMO out there to play at the moment, due to its skill system and death penalty recovery requiring the cash shop. Someone recently costed that to have a maxed out character would currently cost $10,000. Yes, $10,000. Just because a game doesn't have a subscription doesn't makes it free.
In general STO is a lot better than the (true) F2P MMOs, which often are extemely dated in their mechanics and design. The exceptions are DDO and Guild Wars. The latter, to be honest, puts the vast majority of subscription based MMOs to shame. One also has to take into account DDO is a failed subscription based MMO.
Yea, free realms is a kids game. But I find it more enjoyable than STO at the moment, and it has greater replayability.
In playing Allods, you are not required to spend any money. All toon advancement stuff can happen in game without purchasing stuff. You can play DDO completely free if you choose. If however I wanted to create a ferengi federation toon, I have to pay a subscription AND fork over a few bucks. Shame.
My only complaint about paying to play is all the instancing. Why is it this game costs 15 bucks a month yet all the Guild Wars are completely free to play. It's set up in almost the exact same way.
I'm trying to figure out what instancing has to do with a monthly fee. Even WoW uses instancing where it really matters.. dungeons, raids, battlegrounds and arenas are all instanced. I actually wish they would use it more often.
Are there actually players out there who are happy/excited when they get a quest to recover 20 candles from a specific cave full of kobolds, only to arrive at the cave and find no kobolds.. but instead a cavern full of players standing around waiting for the next kobold to spawn? Because that's not very fun for me. Sure, other people are there.. but I didn't come into the cave to socialize, I came into the cave to hunt kobolds. And my idea of "hunting" didn't include tagging the next spawn before it was spotted by a dozen other players.
I don't really miss the days of Everquest where a group would spend 30 minutes fighting their way to a named mob in a dungeon for a particular drop, only to then find the location claimed and camped by another party.
Most episodes of Star Trek has the crew and their ship solving problems out on their own. I think instancing fits well here. In fact, I find Deep Space Encounters to be highly annoying. I'm not saying there aren't times when I wouldn't have fun engaging large groups of ships with other random players, but more often than not I want to be able to tackle them with my group alone.
Yeah, people whom claim to hate this game but secretly love it. They will take the CE box edition into the closet..........well lets not get..nasty here, I am sure you get the point.
Take a look at the person that bad talks this game, look at the time they joined. Figure it out, at launch not 1 pre-order game had more than 30 day trial, thats been over since 3-2-10, its 4-13-10 which means that paid for another 2 months.
Now there are people that are spiteful enough to pay the fee just to spew BS on the forums, personally I think they have a agenda or reason for doing so other than just not liking the game.
Anyway, back to topic, yes this game is justified at $15 a month, if my wife wanted to play, I would pay for her monthly instead of a lifetime sub though, unless the LTS price went back down. Peace.
Right now, no i think its not.
But i am keeping my hopes up that the Game actually becomes fun soon, once you reach RA5.
I don't mean any disrespect by this, but if you're not enjoying the game on your way to RA5 then you're probably going to like it even less when you get to RA5.
Between the ticket and the popcorn and drink, it costs me more than that to see a movie. For that I will probably enjoy myself for 1-1/2 to 2 hours. (I don't go see movies in the theater that I don't expect to enjoy.)
Netflix costs me that much a month (roughly), and I get 12-15 discs per month. I can expect to enjoy about half of them (I rent quite a bit "on spec"), for 6-20 hours a month of enjoyment of wildly varying quality. Plus the wasted time starting ones that I abandon.
STO gives me more than 30 hours a month of enjoyment, of consistent and predictable quality.
Yea, free realms is a kids game. But I find it more enjoyable than STO at the moment, and it has greater replayability.
In playing Allods, you are not required to spend any money. All toon advancement stuff can happen in game without purchasing stuff. You can play DDO completely free if you choose. If however I wanted to create a ferengi federation toon, I have to pay a subscription AND fork over a few bucks. Shame.
Well if you did the survey you should have well enough, and I can't imagine you not doing the survey. Anyway I played DDO and found it to be about as much fun as STO, but the two are quite different so it's hard to make direct comparisons. I'm taking a break from STO until they add some more features though, maybe keeping up with the end game raids but nothing past a bit of that, that way I might still have a bit of a wow! factor when I come back in the summer and see all the new stuff.
Well if you did the survey you should have well enough, and I can't imagine you not doing the survey. Anyway I played DDO and found it to be about as much fun as STO, but the two are quite different so it's hard to make direct comparisons. I'm taking a break from STO until they add some more features though, maybe keeping up with the end game raids but nothing past a bit of that, that way I might still have a bit of a wow! factor when I come back in the summer and see all the new stuff.
I did take the survey. I didnt want to spend those points on "races". We were lead to believe before STO's launch that we would have LOADS and huge plethora of races to choose from. We find out we have a certain limited list, and as time goes on... we must pay for newly added races.
I did take the survey. I didnt want to spend those points on "races". We were lead to believe before STO's launch that we would have LOADS and huge plethora of races to choose from. We find out we have a certain limited list, and as time goes on... we must pay for newly added races.
Very true, I wonder if they'll ever release more races for free. It might be interesting to talk about because so far all new races have been added to the C-Store so if they were to add a race for free what would it be? I can understand Klingon because you're playing a member of another faction on your side, or Romulan or freed Orion or something so given that trend what sort of races might they add for free?
Not that it makes much diff anyway as I doubt Atari would EVER allow the sub price to drop.
My opinion on it not being worth $15 is based on my opinion that for a company to charge the same as 'Other MMO's' there needs to be perhaps double the current content (episodic and end game) AND endgame rewards for ALL damage types not just the currently pointless AP stuff which as i said is pointless all due to the borked skill system (it is borked and STOked guys have proven this through the mathed segments for all those who question my opinion.....go check it out for yowselves)
Nah i dont think it is theres just not enough content at the higher levels hit 45 its boring dailys and crappy STF's whic have duff rewards so no incentive to actually play them more than once.
I been playing since release didnt even get open beta so 2 feb or so think i started as my mate works for Atari uk so got a complmentary copy plus got another free month for some unknown reason and paid for one month and now am bored of it i like the game ground and space missions theres just not enough to do its all the same this is my last month will resub again in a year or so hopefully there will be more high level content by then.
I'll start by saying yes I currently do feel it's justified because for me I have fun, and since installing this game I've yet to play another one.
My only complaint about paying to play is all the instancing. Why is it this game costs 15 bucks a month yet all the Guild Wars are completely free to play. It's set up in almost the exact same way.
Discuss?
Maybe someone has more "tech" knowledge on the servers then I do and can tell me the difference.
NO!!! that's why i'n buying the lifetime subscription first chance i get! >=D
also guild wars has 4 seperate exspansions you need to pay for, doesn't have "seasons". and has been around ALOT longer...
on a side note... sto plays alot more like city of heroes/city of villians (heros being fed, villians being klingon) and you have to pay to play for that (and aeon aswell)
i spend to much as it is and to pay for instance or other extras i would just drop this game and play something else-- even tho i have life time membership.i like the idea of life time because i feel ididn't have to pay any more.
Take a look at the person that bad talks this game, look at the time they joined. Figure it out, at launch not 1 pre-order game had more than 30 day trial, thats been over since 3-2-10, its 4-13-10 which means that paid for another 2 months.
Now there are people that are spiteful enough to pay the fee just to spew BS on the forums, personally I think they have a agenda or reason for doing so other than just not liking the game.
As I mentioned before, some pre-orders came with 30 days and an extra 60 days of play time. Not making this stuff up, ask around your fleet mates if you have any. Paying a subscription just to "spew BS" as you put it is a pretty ludicrous idea if you actually thought about it for a moment.
Oh, snap! I just realized it -- you're a blue name.
I read and hear diferent opinions here and there,but i am startiing to be concerned.
Lets face it STO is FAIL,you may say no,you may try to argue about it and through facts at me...the fanbois will flame me (i dont care).But...lets face it STO is a EPIC FAIL,STO is nothing that we expected,the only thing trek about it is the ships...and even some...make me wonder
The music...and the pseudo trek universe.
But this is a space shoot'em'up with a star trek skin on.
I cant beleive that the hard core trekkies or the less hard core trekkies can say that this is not fail,where is our functional bridge,where is our ability of command and control our ship from the bridge,nowhere and there will never be that option,and you know why?because its an INSTANCE.
Anyway,about the subscription,i made a leap of faith and some sacrifices to get the Lifetime,and i read and hear alot of people saying that this game should turn Free to play...oh my god,what if it does get Free to Play??
What about my money invested into the lifetime????
Anyway,about the subscription,i made a leap of faith and some sacrifices to get the Lifetime,and i read and hear alot of people saying that this game should turn Free to play...oh my god,what if it does get Free to Play??
What about my money invested into the lifetime????
I read and hear diferent opinions here and there,but i am startiing to be concerned.
Lets face it STO is FAIL,you may say no,you may try to argue about it and through facts at me...the fanbois will flame me (i dont care).But...lets face it STO is a EPIC FAIL,STO is nothing that we expected,the only thing trek about it is the ships...and even some...make me wonder
The music...and the pseudo trek universe.
But this is a space shoot'em'up with a star trek skin on.
I cant beleive that the hard core trekkies or the less hard core trekkies can say that this is not fail,where is our functional bridge,where is our ability of command and control our ship from the bridge,nowhere and there will never be that option,and you know why?because its an INSTANCE.
Anyway,about the subscription,i made a leap of faith and some sacrifices to get the Lifetime,and i read and hear alot of people saying that this game should turn Free to play...oh my god,what if it does get Free to Play??
What about my money invested into the lifetime????
If it does go free to play you'll probably be refunded for at least your remaining time. like if it went F2P 2 months before you'd start seeing a return on the lifetime sub you'd get 30 dollars back or something.
Oh and almost certainly some stupid thing you don't care about from the c-store
I do think the $15 a moth is justified. Cryptic is trying an alternative development model that involves F2P continued development philosophy under a P2P sub model. If they embrace the reorientation of service to customers this represents, which it seems they are doing, I do not see why it won't work.
Ask again in about a year or so. Depending on what Cryptic does in that time, I may have changed my mind. At this point I say let them try it out. It might work.
WOW i had no idea people felt this way even some blue names are starting to rebel and jump ship. I read the thread on mmorpg and i did not believe it. now i do ohh well back to fallen earth.
I do think the $15 a moth is justified. Cryptic is trying an alternative development model that involves F2P continued development philosophy under a P2P sub model. If they embrace the reorientation of service to customers this represents, which it seems they are doing, I do not see why it won't work.
Ask again in about a year or so. Depending on what Cryptic does in that time, I may have changed my mind. At this point I say let them try it out. It might work.
I somewhat agree, a year from now for sure either I will have totally changed my mind and hate STO or I'll be paying for my friends to try out for one more month to see how much better it's gotten.
absolutely. i spend more than that on one trip to mcdonalds or a movie. STO gives me, i dunno, at least 50 hours of entertainment in a month if not more.
15 dollars a month, plus the cost of internet access, plus electricity, plus the cost of the pc, and the house that it sits in, and the price of the food I buy so I can stay alive and play the game, and the price of water I drink so I do not dehydrate, and the price of the car I take to drive to work to get the money to pay for all of this...
IDDO has more content? That's actually surprising considering they just launched as well. Oh wait, their launch date appears to be 02/08/06. So that would have given them..... wait don't help me.... fifty months? No, that can't be right. Are you trying to say a fifty month old game has more content than one under three months old? Inconceivable!
Would you like to compare DDO at launch to STO?
DDO launch: very small game, limited content. (Sound familiar?)
The plan was to release new "modules" once a month, with little updates in between (Sound familiar?)
DDO had approx 90,000 players at launch (not to far from "over 100k, is it?)
DDO's population dipped heavily over the first several months, because people ran out of stuff to do (Sound familiar?)
DDO had to start delaying their updates, due to lack of funding (We haven't got there yet, but that will be the next step. If the July update suddenly becomes and Sept. update.......)
It got to a point where DDO didn't have an update for almost a year.
Turbine had to race around to figure out how to save the game. It was on the verge of closing, due to lack of players.
Instead of fixing many of the problems that cause players to leave in the first place, DDO went F2P in order to survive. Now Turbine has started to cater to those F2P players and the Turbine Store (Cryptic is already doing this, according to some) ticking off many of the older/monthly subscribers.
I recently was thinking of going back to play, but I read over the forums. and seeing a steady stream of "old timers" saying goodbye, and explaining why, made me decide not to. Apparently, the game we knew back in '06-'07 is completely disappeared. (Static loot drops???? Really????)
Watching STO now is a lot like watching DDO in 2006.
What's the saying? Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it?
No, it is not worth the monthly fee at present.
Yes, I am still here paying a fee I don't think is justified.
Why am I doing this? I like Star Trek. I want the game to suceed and become MORE Trek like. I like certain aspects of the game, but they are not nearly enough to keep paying the fee and become way to repetative way to quickly. I keep paying the fee as a small way to ensure the game has time to improve. I am getting very impatient though.
I am beginning to think the game is as it is and that is that.
This bothers me as it means it will fail, for me personally, and I will be forced to unsub. Offering constructive critiisizm mearly gets one labeled a troll and is therefore completely useless on this forum. Not being able to offer suggestions for fear of outrageously exagerated flaming has made me avoid even coming here except to lurk when I need to know something.
I think the Season 2 patch will decide it for me. If I still find myself sitting around in game until I get booted for inactivity, then I see no reason to continue. I am not one to stand around and "make up" a game through role playing when I am paying for an actual game mechanic.
There are many things in this game that need to change. They have been posted by me and many others in spite of the flames they induce. Offering suggestions is not bashing and whoever started that little clique needs to seriously rethink it.
DDO launch: very small game, limited content. (Sound familiar?)
The plan was to release new "modules" once a month, with little updates in between (Sound familiar?)
DDO had approx 90,000 players at launch (not to far from "over 100k, is it?)
DDO's population dipped heavily over the first several months, because people ran out of stuff to do (Sound familiar?)
DDO had to start delaying their updates, due to lack of funding (We haven't got there yet, but that will be the next step. If the July update suddenly becomes and Sept. update.......)
It got to a point where DDO didn't have an update for almost a year.
Turbine had to race around to figure out how to save the game. It was on the verge of closing, due to lack of players.
Instead of fixing many of the problems that cause players to leave in the first place, DDO went F2P in order to survive. Now Turbine has started to cater to those F2P players and the Turbine Store (Cryptic is already doing this, according to some) ticking off many of the older/monthly subscribers.
I recently was thinking of going back to play, but I read over the forums. and seeing a steady stream of "old timers" saying goodbye, and explaining why, made me decide not to. Apparently, the game we knew back in '06-'07 is completely disappeared. (Static loot drops???? Really????)
Watching STO now is a lot like watching DDO in 2006.
What's the saying? Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it?
yes i think there gonna ride out the 15$ a month as long as they can
Comments
They likely made the change because they realized that DDO was competing in an already saturated market (fantasy based MMOs). When they went F2P, it gave people incentive to try it out "hey, why not, its free".
It turns out that DDO is actually a pretty fun game. STO is not (in my opinion, and the majority of the gaming community's).
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=124944
:rolleyes:
I have canceled a subscription. If I didn't cancel, I would be auto-billed on or around the beginning of May 2010. Do you think I have to enable billing to be billed - is that how it works in your fantasy make believe world of how billing works? Please make up something else that I've lied about.
Yea, free realms is a kids game. But I find it more enjoyable than STO at the moment, and it has greater replayability.
In playing Allods, you are not required to spend any money. All toon advancement stuff can happen in game without purchasing stuff. You can play DDO completely free if you choose. If however I wanted to create a ferengi federation toon, I have to pay a subscription AND fork over a few bucks. Shame.
Right now, no i think its not.
But i am keeping my hopes up that the Game actually becomes fun soon, once you reach RA5.
I'm trying to figure out what instancing has to do with a monthly fee. Even WoW uses instancing where it really matters.. dungeons, raids, battlegrounds and arenas are all instanced. I actually wish they would use it more often.
Are there actually players out there who are happy/excited when they get a quest to recover 20 candles from a specific cave full of kobolds, only to arrive at the cave and find no kobolds.. but instead a cavern full of players standing around waiting for the next kobold to spawn? Because that's not very fun for me. Sure, other people are there.. but I didn't come into the cave to socialize, I came into the cave to hunt kobolds. And my idea of "hunting" didn't include tagging the next spawn before it was spotted by a dozen other players.
I don't really miss the days of Everquest where a group would spend 30 minutes fighting their way to a named mob in a dungeon for a particular drop, only to then find the location claimed and camped by another party.
Most episodes of Star Trek has the crew and their ship solving problems out on their own. I think instancing fits well here. In fact, I find Deep Space Encounters to be highly annoying. I'm not saying there aren't times when I wouldn't have fun engaging large groups of ships with other random players, but more often than not I want to be able to tackle them with my group alone.
Good points indeed,
I don't mean any disrespect by this, but if you're not enjoying the game on your way to RA5 then you're probably going to like it even less when you get to RA5.
Netflix costs me that much a month (roughly), and I get 12-15 discs per month. I can expect to enjoy about half of them (I rent quite a bit "on spec"), for 6-20 hours a month of enjoyment of wildly varying quality. Plus the wasted time starting ones that I abandon.
STO gives me more than 30 hours a month of enjoyment, of consistent and predictable quality.
Hell yeah, it's worth it.
Well if you did the survey you should have well enough, and I can't imagine you not doing the survey. Anyway I played DDO and found it to be about as much fun as STO, but the two are quite different so it's hard to make direct comparisons. I'm taking a break from STO until they add some more features though, maybe keeping up with the end game raids but nothing past a bit of that, that way I might still have a bit of a wow! factor when I come back in the summer and see all the new stuff.
I did take the survey. I didnt want to spend those points on "races". We were lead to believe before STO's launch that we would have LOADS and huge plethora of races to choose from. We find out we have a certain limited list, and as time goes on... we must pay for newly added races.
Very true, I wonder if they'll ever release more races for free. It might be interesting to talk about because so far all new races have been added to the C-Store so if they were to add a race for free what would it be? I can understand Klingon because you're playing a member of another faction on your side, or Romulan or freed Orion or something so given that trend what sort of races might they add for free?
Not that it makes much diff anyway as I doubt Atari would EVER allow the sub price to drop.
My opinion on it not being worth $15 is based on my opinion that for a company to charge the same as 'Other MMO's' there needs to be perhaps double the current content (episodic and end game) AND endgame rewards for ALL damage types not just the currently pointless AP stuff which as i said is pointless all due to the borked skill system (it is borked and STOked guys have proven this through the mathed segments for all those who question my opinion.....go check it out for yowselves)
I been playing since release didnt even get open beta so 2 feb or so think i started as my mate works for Atari uk so got a complmentary copy plus got another free month for some unknown reason and paid for one month and now am bored of it i like the game ground and space missions theres just not enough to do its all the same this is my last month will resub again in a year or so hopefully there will be more high level content by then.
NO!!! that's why i'n buying the lifetime subscription first chance i get! >=D
also guild wars has 4 seperate exspansions you need to pay for, doesn't have "seasons". and has been around ALOT longer...
on a side note... sto plays alot more like city of heroes/city of villians (heros being fed, villians being klingon) and you have to pay to play for that (and aeon aswell)
As I mentioned before, some pre-orders came with 30 days and an extra 60 days of play time. Not making this stuff up, ask around your fleet mates if you have any. Paying a subscription just to "spew BS" as you put it is a pretty ludicrous idea if you actually thought about it for a moment.
Oh, snap! I just realized it -- you're a blue name.
Lets face it STO is FAIL,you may say no,you may try to argue about it and through facts at me...the fanbois will flame me (i dont care).But...lets face it STO is a EPIC FAIL,STO is nothing that we expected,the only thing trek about it is the ships...and even some...make me wonder
The music...and the pseudo trek universe.
But this is a space shoot'em'up with a star trek skin on.
I cant beleive that the hard core trekkies or the less hard core trekkies can say that this is not fail,where is our functional bridge,where is our ability of command and control our ship from the bridge,nowhere and there will never be that option,and you know why?because its an INSTANCE.
Anyway,about the subscription,i made a leap of faith and some sacrifices to get the Lifetime,and i read and hear alot of people saying that this game should turn Free to play...oh my god,what if it does get Free to Play??
What about my money invested into the lifetime????
Then you better hope you and I get refunds, haha
THAT would make me happy!
You,me and ALOOOT of other Lifer's,and if it goes Free to play and i get a refund i can use it on SW the old republic.For now...playing DDO
If it does go free to play you'll probably be refunded for at least your remaining time. like if it went F2P 2 months before you'd start seeing a return on the lifetime sub you'd get 30 dollars back or something.
Oh and almost certainly some stupid thing you don't care about from the c-store
Ask again in about a year or so. Depending on what Cryptic does in that time, I may have changed my mind. At this point I say let them try it out. It might work.
I somewhat agree, a year from now for sure either I will have totally changed my mind and hate STO or I'll be paying for my friends to try out for one more month to see how much better it's gotten.
Would you like to compare DDO at launch to STO?
DDO launch: very small game, limited content. (Sound familiar?)
The plan was to release new "modules" once a month, with little updates in between (Sound familiar?)
DDO had approx 90,000 players at launch (not to far from "over 100k, is it?)
DDO's population dipped heavily over the first several months, because people ran out of stuff to do (Sound familiar?)
DDO had to start delaying their updates, due to lack of funding (We haven't got there yet, but that will be the next step. If the July update suddenly becomes and Sept. update.......)
It got to a point where DDO didn't have an update for almost a year.
Turbine had to race around to figure out how to save the game. It was on the verge of closing, due to lack of players.
Instead of fixing many of the problems that cause players to leave in the first place, DDO went F2P in order to survive. Now Turbine has started to cater to those F2P players and the Turbine Store (Cryptic is already doing this, according to some) ticking off many of the older/monthly subscribers.
I recently was thinking of going back to play, but I read over the forums. and seeing a steady stream of "old timers" saying goodbye, and explaining why, made me decide not to. Apparently, the game we knew back in '06-'07 is completely disappeared. (Static loot drops???? Really????)
Watching STO now is a lot like watching DDO in 2006.
What's the saying? Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it?
Yes, I am still here paying a fee I don't think is justified.
Why am I doing this? I like Star Trek. I want the game to suceed and become MORE Trek like. I like certain aspects of the game, but they are not nearly enough to keep paying the fee and become way to repetative way to quickly. I keep paying the fee as a small way to ensure the game has time to improve. I am getting very impatient though.
I am beginning to think the game is as it is and that is that.
This bothers me as it means it will fail, for me personally, and I will be forced to unsub. Offering constructive critiisizm mearly gets one labeled a troll and is therefore completely useless on this forum. Not being able to offer suggestions for fear of outrageously exagerated flaming has made me avoid even coming here except to lurk when I need to know something.
I think the Season 2 patch will decide it for me. If I still find myself sitting around in game until I get booted for inactivity, then I see no reason to continue. I am not one to stand around and "make up" a game through role playing when I am paying for an actual game mechanic.
There are many things in this game that need to change. They have been posted by me and many others in spite of the flames they induce. Offering suggestions is not bashing and whoever started that little clique needs to seriously rethink it.
yes i think there gonna ride out the 15$ a month as long as they can