For everyone that tried, failed, and complained...I notice you all have something in common.
P*ss poor pugs.
Don't pug it (why anyone would consider pugging this kind of content is beyond me), or if you absolutely feel you must, at least be SOMEWHAT selective in group make up! My god, all the 4 Engineers and 1 Tactical (or similar) groups...no wonder you failed. You are surprised at this? With that kind of a group make up??
Wow...
Friends don't let friends pug.
Exactly.
I knew this day was coming. The game is so ridiculously easy, it's laughable. The real problem, is that you now have a community of Admiral Noobs. Max level characters, that only know how to solo.
Of course it seems impossible when you pug with 4 other Admiral Noobs.
I'm stunned at the amount of peeps saying they tried this without a healer.....
We didn't complete as we had 4 to start then went down to 3 as we got started late, so only had an hour and a half in there. But I was healing my TRIBBLE off and we were making headway.
Clearly you never played WoW. Even the 5 man content in WoW is way WAY more difficult than this. This wouldn't even be a 1 out of 10 on the WoW scale of difficulty.
Clearly you haven't played wow for a while, if it got any more dumbed down it's be a preschool kids TV show
WoW used to be hard, now it's much less so. That may have changed in the last 6 months, but I'd still rather be here.
I knew this day was coming. The game is so ridiculously easy, it's laughable. The real problem, is that you now have a community of Admiral Noobs. Max level characters, that only know how to solo.
Of course it seems impossible when you pug with 4 other Admiral Noobs.
Agreed. though I am a little more critical. It's not just getting to max level solo that is the problem, it is doing it without consequences. Now we reap the results of not having a death penalty in the game, at least that would have had a somewhat Darwinian affect on things (learn how to play or spend more time going backwards than forwards)..
All I can say is that if they nerf it because idiots cant be bothered to learn how to play, I will be finding a new game right quick.
Agreed. though I am a little more critical. It's not just getting to max level solo that is the problem, it is doing it without consequences. Now we reap the results of not having a death penalty in the game, at least that would have had a somewhat Darwinian affect on things (learn how to play or spend more time going backwards than forwards)..
All I can say is that if they nerf it because idiots cant be bothered to learn how to play, I will be finding a new game right quick.
General statement is general. If they nerfed the hours of pointless trash killing youd find a new game?
You expect people to learn to play? Where? What mission will teach me to play? PvP is the only thing that even requries a modicum of thought.
To the person that was saying its harder than wow, what rose colored glasses are you wearing? Man the grass must be really green on your side of the fence. Try getting through anything in wow where all everyone does is autoattack, lemme know how far you get.
General statement is general. If they nerfed the hours of pointless trash killing youd find a new game?
You expect people to learn to play? Where? What mission will teach me to play? PvP is the only thing that even requries a modicum of thought.
To the person that was saying its harder than wow, what rose colored glasses are you wearing? Man the grass must be really green on your side of the fence. Try getting through anything in wow where all everyone does is autoattack, lemme know how far you get.
I think you misunderstood my point (or I misunderstood yours).
TheGladiator was commenting on how easy the PvE was in this game, leading to a lot of level capped characters that can't play. I was agree and taking it a step further. Not only is it entirely too easy, but without a death penalty *also* (as in, in addition to needing to be harder), people are not forced to learn how to play, leading to the complaints we see here.
STO leads everyone by the hand, and the first time they are on their own they have trouble with the simplest of game mechanics (well, simple in comparison to other games end-game content).
As for WoW, I agree (though I stopped playing just before WotLK came out, when they nerfed the hell out of Sunwell, this after nerfing everything else in BC and removing attunment requirements)
Why do people say 'don't complain that it's hard' when it's above the threshold of hard and near impossible.
Come back 2 weeks from now when the list of admirals saying they can't beat it us quite high...
Why do people say 'don't complain that it's hard' when it's above the threshold of hard and near impossible.
Come back 2 weeks from now when the list of admirals saying they can't beat it us quite high...
Because it isn't 'near impossible' maybe?
Of course, if you go in with any old random pug and expect to waltz through it I guess you might find it hard...but that's your own fault, and has nothing to do with the content.
I agree, you definitely need a healer for this one. You also need an engie who can spam shield generators and healing stations too. We went through with 4 tacs and a healer. Two of our tacs dropped out by the time we hit the final room with the commander. We got rid of the initial node that was in the room. Then we got rid of all the drones so that we were left with the commander. We thought we had it in the bag with the 3 of us. But lo and behold, we almost had him all the way down and then another node magically appeared by his regen chamber and we were scrooed. Very sneaky Criptic.
Why do people say 'don't complain that it's hard' when it's above the threshold of hard and near impossible.
Come back 2 weeks from now when the list of admirals saying they can't beat it us quite high...
Raiding isn't for everyone. If you think this is difficult, maybe it's not for you. If you enjoy your solo play, and expected to just PUG this with 4 other people of like mind, you now know what to expect.
For me, I didn't find this much of a challenge. Starting tomorrow, I'm sure it will be done in 2 hours or less, improving each time it's completed. If you have even the slightest understanding of the game mechanics, and go with other people that understand what teamwork is, it's not hard at all.
You should probaby revise your statement to "it's above the threshold of hard and near impossible FOR ME".
I agree, you definitely need a healer for this one. You also need an engie who can spam shield generators and healing stations too. We went through with 4 tacs and a healer. Two of our tacs dropped out by the time we hit the final room with the commander. We got rid of the initial node that was in the room. Then we got rid of all the drones so that we were left with the commander. We thought we had it in the bag with the 3 of us. But lo and behold, we almost had him all the way down and then another node magically appeared by his regen chamber and we were scrooed. Very sneaky Criptic.
My 4 man group that completed it today, had no healer.
Squad Leader Kit, hypos, regen tribble, medical generator... that was it. That just goes to show you they could make this HARDER not EASIER.
Agreed. though I am a little more critical. It's not just getting to max level solo that is the problem, it is doing it without consequences. Now we reap the results of not having a death penalty in the game, at least that would have had a somewhat Darwinian affect on things (learn how to play or spend more time going backwards than forwards)..
All I can say is that if they nerf it because idiots cant be bothered to learn how to play, I will be finding a new game right quick.
I totally agree. I look forward to when they turn the death penalty on. That will really filter out the noobs, and it will be easier to find talented players to do these 5 man episodes with. You can bet the players with no skill or understanding of teamwork will not last 5 minutes in one of these raid episodes once the death penalty is in.
Imo, this was a semi decent encounter. I play high end WoW endgame, and Ill admit, the shield thing was interesting, but un#@&^@ing belivably difficult. Not even WoW devs would create such an evil creation. The sheer amount of mobs is just TRIBBLE. plain and simple. Give us more space combat based stuff, give us the option to take it further by either continuing a space portion or a ground one. I play startrek for space combat, ground is okay, but Im in for the space pew pews.
Overall, the final boss, WAAAAAAAY hard, simplyfy it a bit, no respawns on drones and problem solved. The rest then becomes resonable. But respawning drones? having to upload a virus? no no.
As for the parts before that, the captain fight was okay, but the trash clear to him? common, WAYYYY to much, either tone them down so we are just ripping through them or just make the distance shorter. It's simply too much for too little reward.
I personally will do the space portion again, but I doubt ill bother with the ground again till changes are made.
I think you misunderstood my point (or I misunderstood yours).
TheGladiator was commenting on how easy the PvE was in this game, leading to a lot of level capped characters that can't play. I was agree and taking it a step further. Not only is it entirely too easy, but without a death penalty *also* (as in, in addition to needing to be harder), people are not forced to learn how to play, leading to the complaints we see here.
STO leads everyone by the hand, and the first time they are on their own they have trouble with the simplest of game mechanics (well, simple in comparison to other games end-game content).
As for WoW, I agree (though I stopped playing just before WotLK came out, when they nerfed the hell out of Sunwell, this after nerfing everything else in BC and removing attunment requirements)
I think we're pretty much in agreement here. Except for the death penalty part, i think if it was actually challenging the death penalty would be the feeling of failure. Since you were a wow person ull understand, wasnt wiping in and of itself the death penalty? Repairs have been easy to cover and just annoying since TBC, the real 'death penalty' was the feeling of failing, IMO. But since its really impossible to die to anything in the game thats the appropriate level, its a moot point (obv. minus the queen boss).
Sorry if you took offence, never kicked but, never will. I have a very low skill lvl in playing mmo's and empathy is something I hold dear. That does not change the fact that the space part of the mission is not at all hard in any way. That is if you were implying I was kicking the posters but.
That said , is the difficulty scaled to number of players?
Nah, I didnt take offense. Just commenting. And the remark was actually a compliment to your space combat skill...though space combat is far from hard unless you spawn in the middle of an enemy squadron (::coughs:: DSE).
Glad not just anyone can beat this. Its about time they put something in that requires a group to actually work together as a (you guessed it) GROUP. Wish every episode that you could do as a group would scale to this difficulty if you had 5 people in your group.
I for one can't wait til they get more of these in so I have a reason to log in and play more. Finished this one with the first PUG I joined. Took us 2 tries on the final boss but other than that we did pretty good.
I totally agree. I look forward to when they turn the death penalty on. That will really filter out the noobs, and it will be easier to find talented players to do these 5 man episodes with. You can bet the players with no skill or understanding of teamwork will not last 5 minutes in one of these raid episodes once the death penalty is in.
Yea smelly noobtards messin up our raids kinda suxors, i wanna do it on UBER lvl when the difficulty slider is implemented.
I'm having trouble figuring out why you are uploading the computer virus. You don't need to. Just take down the shields patiently one at a time. As far as we could tell the virus did absolutely nothing except reset the stupid thing.
Also 5 man is not a raid, and the boss fight just stupidely difficult. And the reward, 1 purple rifle that you can get with marks. It's not like there are 20 of us in here, how about a reward for everyone?
Also 5 man is not a raid, and the boss fight just stupidely difficult. And the reward, 1 purple rifle that you can get with marks. It's not like there are 20 of us in here, how about a reward for everyone?
It is a daily, not a weekly thing. You are intended to run it often. And once they get it tuned a bit better, trim down the trash a bit, and we get better at the encounter, it will be run successfully often.
Not that it matters much for weapons, purples add very little benefit.
1. If you are a Tac officer Plasma grenade is your friend. Plasma grenade Borg nodes they will go down quickly and it will keep you out of melee range.
2. When you have multiple packs back off and let one person tag and run. Seperating the packs of borg make things much easier.
3. If you need to take a node out send 3 team members into combat while the other 2 bum rush the node.
4. Photo Borg die in 2 shots do not ignore them.
5. In the last room use tac officers to hold aggro while shields are being brought down. 2 Tac officers with there security escorts can easily keep the borg distracted while your team drops the shields.
I played the mission through yesterday and have some thoughts.
1) The waves and waves and wave and WAVES of trash mobs in the middle part of the mission made the it feel extremely tedious. The beginning space battle was fun, the end room with the boss was interesting and challenging, but there's a lonnnnnnnnnnnng meaningless grind in the middle that I really don't care to repeat.
2) Item drops aren't much better than what I can buy from Battle Group doing my daily exploration missions.
The pistol mentioned upthread was only a +1 versus what you can buy at Battle Group, and it had a lower chance of crit. Why would I be excited about doing a raid for this?
A difficult to obtain item should be notably better than something we can get by doing daily exploration grinds.
3) With the skill cap, there's no reason to do the mission for skill points.
So with these thoughts in mind, what's the motivation for doing the mission? Is it just to be able to say you did it?
If you scale the general game difficulty out of ten you would maybe say this game was 4/10 for difficulty.
This episode is up there at 9/10 so the jump in difficulty is absurd for the kind of gameplay we have had since the start.
As an example, my last run our team went through 11 different personel because people couldn't hack the jump in difficulty. From what I hear this is a common problem already and does not bode well for the games future.
The time taken from the first forming of the team to finish was 3hrs and 20mins which is just a total pain in the nether regions. Deaths were closing in on the 50 mark and it's a long long run back from the start point. Areas already cleared suddenly drop another node during your many runs back from the start.
This episode is totally out of sync with the entire game and needs less mobs and more spawn points.
Agreed. though I am a little more critical. It's not just getting to max level solo that is the problem, it is doing it without consequences. Now we reap the results of not having a death penalty in the game, at least that would have had a somewhat Darwinian affect on things (learn how to play or spend more time going backwards than forwards)..
All I can say is that if they nerf it because idiots cant be bothered to learn how to play, I will be finding a new game right quick.
Death penalty acting as buffer to bad players? Obviously you haven't played many MMO's.... WoW = Full of idiots, CoX = Same, and so on. All have a penalty for dying, yet you will ALWAYS find a way to hit max level.
I've had players in CoX at level 50 ask me stuff they shoulda learned by level 10. In WoW, they'd ask stuff you should learned 79 levels ago.. it really never changes.
Does a death penalty affect the overall quality of players as a base pool? NO
Does having accurate information about all aspects of character/equipment/tactics + players willing to READ and DO it? YES
Do #2 not #1. Hate the player mechanics solve nothing, but lower the player base.
Death penalty acting as buffer to bad players? Obviously you haven't played many MMO's.... WoW = Full of idiots, CoX = Same, and so on. All have a penalty for dying, yet you will ALWAYS find a way to hit max level.
I've had players in CoX at level 50 ask me stuff they shoulda learned by level 10. In WoW, they'd ask stuff you should learned 79 levels ago.. it really never changes.
Does a death penalty affect the overall quality of players as a base pool? NO
Does having accurate information about all aspects of character/equipment/tactics + players willing to READ and DO it? YES
Do #2 not #1. Hate the player mechanics solve nothing, but lower the player base.
I have been playing MMOs since the very early weeks of EQ.
Does the existence of a death penalty ensure all players no how to play? No, but it certainly reduces the number of idiots to a manageable level.
As for WoW and CoX (yes, played both), the death penalties in those games were negligible (though, ironically, CoX had one that was far harsher than WoW's).
WoW's death penalty really didn't mean much while leveling up, since it was tied to repair costs and those costs were tied to the type, and quality of the gear. I would even argue that WoW's death penalty was counter productive as it didn't hit people leveling while it placed a burden on those at the level cap, at a time when a raid wipe meant more in terms of time/preparation than it did repair bills. As a Prot Pally MT doing T6 raids, progression nights got VERY expensive VERY fast.
CoX's death penalty was sufficient and I rarely ran into level capped players who were ignorant of basic game mechanics. In fact, leveling my scrapper (Pre-nerf, Issue 1 DM/invuln. Back when you needed TP as a travel power with Invuln due to being rooted when fully toggled up), the DP was just about perfect as it made me learn the limits of my hero (herding 5th Column and Nemesis in Bricks and,, later, PI).
Shall we talk about EQs DP and the effect it had on end game now? Even DAoC was decent, I liked not worrying about losing a level, though you could lose and entire days worth of work. It was simple there, and idiots got black listed in a hurry. You quickly built up a good list of known players you trusted.
As for your two questions, do you honestly believe they are unrelated?
Did not get a chance to get to deep into in on launch day we were a little rushed on time, but the encounter seemed fun, I hope it takes a few tries to learn it and beat it, nothng worse than waltzing into a new encounter and beating on the first try, then it's kind whats the point after that.. A challenge is something this game has needed, looking forward to the next ones..:)
Comments
It doesn't need toning down... at all.
I agree about the railings. Until you figure out you have to jump ON the railing before jumping over to the box, you will die alot.
Just remove the rails.
Exactly.
I knew this day was coming. The game is so ridiculously easy, it's laughable. The real problem, is that you now have a community of Admiral Noobs. Max level characters, that only know how to solo.
Of course it seems impossible when you pug with 4 other Admiral Noobs.
We didn't complete as we had 4 to start then went down to 3 as we got started late, so only had an hour and a half in there. But I was healing my TRIBBLE off and we were making headway.
Healing, it's good for what ails ya
Clearly you haven't played wow for a while, if it got any more dumbed down it's be a preschool kids TV show
WoW used to be hard, now it's much less so. That may have changed in the last 6 months, but I'd still rather be here.
btw, I think STF is fine as it is difficultywise
Agreed. though I am a little more critical. It's not just getting to max level solo that is the problem, it is doing it without consequences. Now we reap the results of not having a death penalty in the game, at least that would have had a somewhat Darwinian affect on things (learn how to play or spend more time going backwards than forwards)..
All I can say is that if they nerf it because idiots cant be bothered to learn how to play, I will be finding a new game right quick.
General statement is general. If they nerfed the hours of pointless trash killing youd find a new game?
You expect people to learn to play? Where? What mission will teach me to play? PvP is the only thing that even requries a modicum of thought.
To the person that was saying its harder than wow, what rose colored glasses are you wearing? Man the grass must be really green on your side of the fence. Try getting through anything in wow where all everyone does is autoattack, lemme know how far you get.
I think you misunderstood my point (or I misunderstood yours).
TheGladiator was commenting on how easy the PvE was in this game, leading to a lot of level capped characters that can't play. I was agree and taking it a step further. Not only is it entirely too easy, but without a death penalty *also* (as in, in addition to needing to be harder), people are not forced to learn how to play, leading to the complaints we see here.
STO leads everyone by the hand, and the first time they are on their own they have trouble with the simplest of game mechanics (well, simple in comparison to other games end-game content).
As for WoW, I agree (though I stopped playing just before WotLK came out, when they nerfed the hell out of Sunwell, this after nerfing everything else in BC and removing attunment requirements)
Come back 2 weeks from now when the list of admirals saying they can't beat it us quite high...
Because it isn't 'near impossible' maybe?
Of course, if you go in with any old random pug and expect to waltz through it I guess you might find it hard...but that's your own fault, and has nothing to do with the content.
Raiding isn't for everyone. If you think this is difficult, maybe it's not for you. If you enjoy your solo play, and expected to just PUG this with 4 other people of like mind, you now know what to expect.
For me, I didn't find this much of a challenge. Starting tomorrow, I'm sure it will be done in 2 hours or less, improving each time it's completed. If you have even the slightest understanding of the game mechanics, and go with other people that understand what teamwork is, it's not hard at all.
You should probaby revise your statement to "it's above the threshold of hard and near impossible FOR ME".
My 4 man group that completed it today, had no healer.
Squad Leader Kit, hypos, regen tribble, medical generator... that was it. That just goes to show you they could make this HARDER not EASIER.
I totally agree. I look forward to when they turn the death penalty on. That will really filter out the noobs, and it will be easier to find talented players to do these 5 man episodes with. You can bet the players with no skill or understanding of teamwork will not last 5 minutes in one of these raid episodes once the death penalty is in.
Overall, the final boss, WAAAAAAAY hard, simplyfy it a bit, no respawns on drones and problem solved. The rest then becomes resonable. But respawning drones? having to upload a virus? no no.
As for the parts before that, the captain fight was okay, but the trash clear to him? common, WAYYYY to much, either tone them down so we are just ripping through them or just make the distance shorter. It's simply too much for too little reward.
I personally will do the space portion again, but I doubt ill bother with the ground again till changes are made.
Space for life!
I think we're pretty much in agreement here. Except for the death penalty part, i think if it was actually challenging the death penalty would be the feeling of failure. Since you were a wow person ull understand, wasnt wiping in and of itself the death penalty? Repairs have been easy to cover and just annoying since TBC, the real 'death penalty' was the feeling of failing, IMO. But since its really impossible to die to anything in the game thats the appropriate level, its a moot point (obv. minus the queen boss).
Nah, I didnt take offense. Just commenting. And the remark was actually a compliment to your space combat skill...though space combat is far from hard unless you spawn in the middle of an enemy squadron (::coughs:: DSE).
I for one can't wait til they get more of these in so I have a reason to log in and play more. Finished this one with the first PUG I joined. Took us 2 tries on the final boss but other than that we did pretty good.
People who beat this already, are the rewards worth the effort in your opinion? Just curious.
Squad Leader Kit is awesome!!! WIsh I had one when I tried mine. Overwatch Protection and Stun/Holds FTW!
More like group heal for the win.
Yea smelly noobtards messin up our raids kinda suxors, i wanna do it on UBER lvl when the difficulty slider is implemented.
PS: How do i gang ppl again?..:D:p
Also 5 man is not a raid, and the boss fight just stupidely difficult. And the reward, 1 purple rifle that you can get with marks. It's not like there are 20 of us in here, how about a reward for everyone?
It is a daily, not a weekly thing. You are intended to run it often. And once they get it tuned a bit better, trim down the trash a bit, and we get better at the encounter, it will be run successfully often.
Not that it matters much for weapons, purples add very little benefit.
1. If you are a Tac officer Plasma grenade is your friend. Plasma grenade Borg nodes they will go down quickly and it will keep you out of melee range.
2. When you have multiple packs back off and let one person tag and run. Seperating the packs of borg make things much easier.
3. If you need to take a node out send 3 team members into combat while the other 2 bum rush the node.
4. Photo Borg die in 2 shots do not ignore them.
5. In the last room use tac officers to hold aggro while shields are being brought down. 2 Tac officers with there security escorts can easily keep the borg distracted while your team drops the shields.
Sure the pulls can get crazy, but they are borg after all, they have that whole collective thing going on.
If anything this mission has made me really start to think about the dp issue and I am really starting to reconsider my pro-dp stance lol.
1) The waves and waves and wave and WAVES of trash mobs in the middle part of the mission made the it feel extremely tedious. The beginning space battle was fun, the end room with the boss was interesting and challenging, but there's a lonnnnnnnnnnnng meaningless grind in the middle that I really don't care to repeat.
2) Item drops aren't much better than what I can buy from Battle Group doing my daily exploration missions.
The pistol mentioned upthread was only a +1 versus what you can buy at Battle Group, and it had a lower chance of crit. Why would I be excited about doing a raid for this?
A difficult to obtain item should be notably better than something we can get by doing daily exploration grinds.
3) With the skill cap, there's no reason to do the mission for skill points.
So with these thoughts in mind, what's the motivation for doing the mission? Is it just to be able to say you did it?
If you scale the general game difficulty out of ten you would maybe say this game was 4/10 for difficulty.
This episode is up there at 9/10 so the jump in difficulty is absurd for the kind of gameplay we have had since the start.
As an example, my last run our team went through 11 different personel because people couldn't hack the jump in difficulty. From what I hear this is a common problem already and does not bode well for the games future.
The time taken from the first forming of the team to finish was 3hrs and 20mins which is just a total pain in the nether regions. Deaths were closing in on the 50 mark and it's a long long run back from the start point. Areas already cleared suddenly drop another node during your many runs back from the start.
This episode is totally out of sync with the entire game and needs less mobs and more spawn points.
Death penalty acting as buffer to bad players? Obviously you haven't played many MMO's.... WoW = Full of idiots, CoX = Same, and so on. All have a penalty for dying, yet you will ALWAYS find a way to hit max level.
I've had players in CoX at level 50 ask me stuff they shoulda learned by level 10. In WoW, they'd ask stuff you should learned 79 levels ago.. it really never changes.
Does a death penalty affect the overall quality of players as a base pool? NO
Does having accurate information about all aspects of character/equipment/tactics + players willing to READ and DO it? YES
Do #2 not #1. Hate the player mechanics solve nothing, but lower the player base.
I have been playing MMOs since the very early weeks of EQ.
Does the existence of a death penalty ensure all players no how to play? No, but it certainly reduces the number of idiots to a manageable level.
As for WoW and CoX (yes, played both), the death penalties in those games were negligible (though, ironically, CoX had one that was far harsher than WoW's).
WoW's death penalty really didn't mean much while leveling up, since it was tied to repair costs and those costs were tied to the type, and quality of the gear. I would even argue that WoW's death penalty was counter productive as it didn't hit people leveling while it placed a burden on those at the level cap, at a time when a raid wipe meant more in terms of time/preparation than it did repair bills. As a Prot Pally MT doing T6 raids, progression nights got VERY expensive VERY fast.
CoX's death penalty was sufficient and I rarely ran into level capped players who were ignorant of basic game mechanics. In fact, leveling my scrapper (Pre-nerf, Issue 1 DM/invuln. Back when you needed TP as a travel power with Invuln due to being rooted when fully toggled up), the DP was just about perfect as it made me learn the limits of my hero (herding 5th Column and Nemesis in Bricks and,, later, PI).
Shall we talk about EQs DP and the effect it had on end game now? Even DAoC was decent, I liked not worrying about losing a level, though you could lose and entire days worth of work. It was simple there, and idiots got black listed in a hurry. You quickly built up a good list of known players you trusted.
As for your two questions, do you honestly believe they are unrelated?