Personally, I think it is poor design, and it`s just getting worse. They had 2 years to make the game, and they rushed it, not planning it right.
The cracks are starting to appear.
Yup, the foundations of this game are not very stable base to build upon. Some things just wont ever improve due to some very ignorant short cut solutions to bang out STO in just 2 years back to back with CO. STO is a game I'll dabble in through 2010, but doubt I'll play 2011 onwards since the games depth and community tools just don't have any longevity.
I don't see how you could make this claim, as most of it is some stuff they've said before, and the rest is stuff that they just haven't said before now.
There is nothing in that Ask Cryptic they haven't said or hinted at before except for the promise to redo the ship skills so each will affect the other tiers.
I am VERY disappointed in their responses as a result.
They designed the skill system to have no cap, stuck a cap on at the last minute (literally), and now think we are going to put points into the higher tier weapons that have the SAME DPS as the lower tier ones, just because "different weapons are cool"? Right...if anyone seriously believes that one, I've got a nice bridge over here for sale...
The thing is if they had kept their original system intact, there are dozens of skills they could add to stay ahead of players, if not hundreds. Just off the top of my head I can think of skills affecting:
Ground weapon DPS - one skill for each type of weapon, like the ships
Ground armor HP - one skill of each type of armor
Ground shield HP
Reducing the timers on hypos
A real skill based crafting system - this could include several skills at each tier
Tractor beam range
Battery power
Splitting the ship specific skills so one improves turn rate, one HP, etc. instead of having one skill each tier do all
Skills that allow transwarping to different sector blocks
Sensor range
Not to mention new subtypes of ships and weapons
and I'm sure there are many more...
I would love to know why they changed the system at the last minute. Not enough pre-orders? Big budget cut from Atari? Key people quitting? Whatever the reason, a lot more than just the ship skills need to be changed if the cap remains in place.
another B.S cryptic dev post with no relivance in reality
didnt one of these things tell me their was no skill cap
do you see what your words are worth to your customers yet cryptic after this month is up and players abandon ship im pretty sure it will hit you clearly.
I don't see how you could make this claim, as most of it is some stuff they've said before, and the rest is stuff that they just haven't said before now.
remove the spin what is there there?
ok we know the skills don't make sense we changed the system right before launch cause we think we can make more money we will some time get arround to fixing it we think some time this year, we hope.
"The level cap will be increased to Rear Admiral Grade 10 in a larger update later this year. Additionally, a new Respec system will be added. At that point you can earn more Skill Points and purchase and rearrange your skills."
so some time this year i guess the 1-2 months thing got tossed out once they realized just how screwed it is.
"There is hardly no point, though these skills currently become less useful in the endgame. However, we are in the process of changing this. All ship skills will grant some bonus to the ship above it. So an Assault Cruiser will benefit from Starship Captain, Cruiser Captain, Heavy Cruiser Captain, Exploration Cruiser Captain and Assault Cruiser Captain, but it will get the most benefit from Assault Cruiser Captain Skill. So if you want to maximize your Assault Cruiser, you will need all those skills. Note, the Assault Cruiser will not gain any benefit from the Star Cruiser Captain skill and vice-versa. The bonuses only affect ships upwards along the tree, not laterally."
oops we had a dead end path because we had unlimited skill points, we are gonna try to change it without completed TRIBBLE the players over, we hope.
"The different effects are key! It all depends on play style. Once you start breaking into the special weapons, you have to figure out which special effects work well with others. Just having 1 exotic weapon may not do so much for you, but if you can get a few, with special effects that work well together, that's when they get MUCH more powerful. There's also style to take into account! Some people just like having exotic weapons, but how rare and exotic can it be if it costs the same as normal weapons?"
we had a system where the weapons were balanced, we are going to change that to justify the higher cost of some of the weapons training, we think we can do it right...
the game was rushed jedidethfreak, to me the massive shift in design going from a capless to a capped system 2 weeks before launch confirms this. The skill system how it would be the basic premises behind it are something that should have been decided 18 or more months ago. to fundamentaly change the system 2 weeks before live you will have issues to put it mildly.
I did not like the answer on exotic weapons... "style" and a benefit for certain combinations in fleet actions is insufficient justification to have the higher grade exotics cost so much more than phasers or disruptors - at least not with the current skill point limits.
remove the spin what is there there?
ok we know the skills don't make sense we changed the system right before launch cause we didn't factor raising the level cap into a capless system when we programmed the game.
"The level cap will be increased to Rear Admiral Grade 10 in a larger update later this year. Additionally, a new Respec system will be added. At that point you can earn more Skill Points and purchase and rearrange your skills."
so some time this year i guess the 1-2 months thing got tossed out once they realized just how screwed it is.
"There is hardly no point, though these skills currently become less useful in the endgame. However, we are in the process of changing this. All ship skills will grant some bonus to the ship above it. So an Assault Cruiser will benefit from Starship Captain, Cruiser Captain, Heavy Cruiser Captain, Exploration Cruiser Captain and Assault Cruiser Captain, but it will get the most benefit from Assault Cruiser Captain Skill. So if you want to maximize your Assault Cruiser, you will need all those skills. Note, the Assault Cruiser will not gain any benefit from the Star Cruiser Captain skill and vice-versa. The bonuses only affect ships upwards along the tree, not laterally."
oops we had a dead end path because we had unlimited skill points, we are gonna try to change it without completed TRIBBLE the players over, we hope.
"The different effects are key! It all depends on play style. Once you start breaking into the special weapons, you have to figure out which special effects work well with others. Just having 1 exotic weapon may not do so much for you, but if you can get a few, with special effects that work well together, that's when they get MUCH more powerful. There's also style to take into account! Some people just like having exotic weapons, but how rare and exotic can it be if it costs the same as normal weapons?"
we had a system where the weapons were balanced, we are going to change that to justify the higher cost of some of the weapons training, we think we can do it right...
the game was rushed jedidethfrea, to me the massive shift in design going from a capless to a capped system 2 weeks before launch confirms this. The skill system how it would be the basic premises behind it are something that should have been decided 18 or more months ago. to fundamentaly change the system 2 weeks before live you will have issues to put it mildly.
"
Edited for greater accuracy.
Also, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't rushed. I know it was rushed. I'm also not arguing that you wouldn't have issues. My question, though, is how could this episode of Ask Cryptic be taken as a "victory" to the anti-skill-point-cap crowd? The closest it comes to addressing any of the issues they've brought up was that they'll make Tier 3 and 4 ship skills useful for Tier 5 eventually, which was assumed almost right off the bat after the cap was announced anyway.
I don't see how you could make this claim, as most of it is some stuff they've said before, and the rest is stuff that they just haven't said before now.
I'm starting to think that perhaps you simply enjoy just opposing whatever I say with no thought about what it REALLY is that you are saying. I highlighted that bit in the quote because I just fail to see exaclty what you are try say by this. I agree most of it they have mentioned before and some of it isn't. What is your point?
Others along with myself have been talking about these issues and in particular the ship skills point for ages ONLY to have you and others like you blast away at our analysis of the skill system. This response SHOWS that the devs know that it is messed up and are attempting to fix SOME of the issues at hand.
I must point out to the other posters that I did say 'Small victory' as a lot of the stuff in it is still not adequate and still messed up, BUT, we are getting through to them.
I'm starting to think that perhaps you simply enjoy just opposing whatever I say with no thought about what it REALLY is that you are saying. I highlighted that bit in the quote because I just fail to see exaclty what you are try say by this. I agree most of it they have mentioned before and some of it isn't. What is your point?
Others along with myself have been talking about these issues and in particular the ship skills point for ages ONLY to have you and others like you blast away at our analysis of the skill system. This response SHOWS that the devs know that it is messed up and are attempting to fix SOME of the issues at hand.
I must point out to the other posters that I did say 'Small victory' as a lot of the stuff in it is still not adequate and still messed up, BUT, we are getting through to them.
I haven't blasted the analysis of the skill system, only that there was a de-facto problem with the skill system - as confirmed by Stormshade and dstahl - and a cap was the easiest way to fix it in the short term. I also took issue with the myriad armchair-programmer ideas for fixing it, as they all presented problems with were just as bad. The devs new it was bad when they implemented the cap, and said so at the very beginning.
Finally, my point of contention is that you aren't getting through to them, as this is surely all stuff they've been planning, even without your input. If your ego can't accept that, so be it.
Also, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't rushed. I know it was rushed. I'm also not arguing that you wouldn't have issues. My question, though, is how could this episode of Ask Cryptic be taken as a "victory" to the anti-skill-point-cap crowd? The closest it comes to addressing any of the issues they've brought up was that they'll make Tier 3 and 4 ship skills useful for Tier 5 eventually, which was assumed almost right off the bat after the cap was announced anyway.
The level cap and the possibleity of future raising of the level cap should have been something decided long before any coding happened. Either they were incompetent then or greedy just before launch, I prefer the greedy option, at least then they may have the talent and skill to repair the system, otherwise this game which I do enjoy is doomed.
The level cap and the possibleity of future raising of the level cap should have been something decided long before any coding happened. Either they were incompetent then or greedy just before launch, I prefer the greedy option, at least then they may have the talent and skill to repair the system, otherwise this game which I do enjoy is doomed.
Yep, because mistakes have never been made in the history of game programming, right?
Also, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't rushed. I know it was rushed. I'm also not arguing that you wouldn't have issues. My question, though, is how could this episode of Ask Cryptic be taken as a "victory" to the anti-skill-point-cap crowd? The closest it comes to addressing any of the issues they've brought up was that they'll make Tier 3 and 4 ship skills useful for Tier 5 eventually, which was assumed almost right off the bat after the cap was announced anyway.
Interestingly once again you are taking what was said and are changing it for your own benefit.
Firstly you said 'victory'. I said 'Small Victory'
Secondly you said 'anti-skill-point-cap crowd'. I said 'Skill Cap issues'
Your point that I highlighted I agree with. (hooray) But you said 'assumed'. I can only think that you meant the forum assumed this as I have not seen any dev saying anything like this. I am sorry but I don't like to work from assumptions and untill a dev/cryptic states something for fact I will not simply assume something. This is one such time that they have stated something. What this does is to validate that what i am trying to acchieve here is having some sort of impact with the devs.
Make NO MISTAKE that I am doing this BECAUSE I am a massive fan of the IP and don't want to give up because I personally believe that Cryptic have dropped the ball with this game.
Yep, because mistakes have never been made in the history of game programming, right?
Yes mistakes have been made in the history of game programming, but rarely on the scale that appears to have happened with this game. can you give me an example of a similar change in design philosophy close to launch (ei less then one month to launch) or post launch that has turned out well in the long run. examples where the change cause months of delay before launch so they could fix the system do not count.
Interestingly once again you are taking what was said and are changing it for your own benefit.
Firstly you said 'victory'. I said 'Small Victory'
Secondly you said 'anti-skill-point-cap crowd'. I said 'Skill Cap issues'
Your point that I highlighted I agree with. (hooray) But you said 'assumed'. I can only think that you meant the forum assumed this as I have not seen any dev saying anything like this. I am sorry but I don't like to work from assumptions and untill a dev/cryptic states something for fact I will not simply assume something. This is one such time that they have stated something. What this does is to validate that what i am trying to acchieve here is having some sort of impact with the devs.
Make NO MISTAKE that I am doing this BECAUSE I am a massive fan of the IP and don't want to give up because I personally believe that Cryptic have dropped the ball with this game.
isn't dropping the ball putting a bit mildly? this game should not have launched feb 2, 2010
Interestingly once again you are taking what was said and are changing it for your own benefit.
Firstly you said 'victory'. I said 'Small Victory'
Secondly you said 'anti-skill-point-cap crowd'. I said 'Skill Cap issues'
Your point that I highlighted I agree with. (hooray) But you said 'assumed'. I can only think that you meant the forum assumed this as I have not seen any dev saying anything like this. I am sorry but I don't like to work from assumptions and untill a dev/cryptic states something for fact I will not simply assume something. This is one such time that they have stated something. What this does is to validate that what i am trying to acchieve here is having some sort of impact with the devs.
Make NO MISTAKE that I am doing this BECAUSE I am a massive fan of the IP and don't want to give up because I personally believe that Cryptic have dropped the ball with this game.
You don't assume anything without a dev post? Then why are you assuming that this was implemented in response to your efforts? If it isn't an assumption, please link the dev post that says it was not going to be done, but you guys QQ'ed long enough so they did it anyway.
Yes mistakes have been made in the history of game programming, but rarely on the scale that appears to have happened with this game. can you give me an example of a similar change in design philosophy close to launch (ei less then one month to launch) or post launch that has turned out well in the long run. examples where the change cause months of delay before launch so they could fix the system do not count.
No, I can't, just like you can't give an example of a game that had a severely shortened dev cycle because the IP it's based on was given to you after the previous development team squandered an entire dev cycle - along with millions of dollars and, quite literally, the whole company - to make concept art and no code that launched with everything that was ever promised.
No, I can't, just like you can't give an example of a game that had a severely shortened dev cycle because the IP it's based on was given to you after the previous development team squandered an entire dev cycle - along with millions of dollars and, quite literally, the whole company - to make concept art and no code that launched with everything that was ever promised.
Then they should have demanded more time to do it. The fact the IP was under a different dev team for years and that team did nothing meant that cryptic had to start from scratch, so what. Cryptic had to have known that going in. This has nothing to do with changing base mechanics in a game 2 weeks before launch.
I haven't blasted the analysis of the skill system, only that there was a de-facto problem with the skill system - as confirmed by Stormshade and dstahl - and a cap was the easiest way to fix it in the short term. I also took issue with the myriad armchair-programmer ideas for fixing it, as they all presented problems with were just as bad. The devs new it was bad when they implemented the cap, and said so at the very beginning.
Finally, my point of contention is that you aren't getting through to them, as this is surely all stuff they've been planning, even without your input. If your ego can't accept that, so be it.
Really they planned all along to have a skill cap?
And despite your negative undertones once again.....my ego has nothing at all to do with this. I fail to see why you would assume my ego has anything to do with all this unless you were hoping to provoke a negative response from me.
Stop trying to pick at everything and try working with the rest of your fellow forum users. Whatever your opinion is you need to compromise in order to find some sort of happy middle ground with the rest of the forum. If you do not then all you serve to acchieve is to alienate yourself from EVERYONE ELSE that has a different opinion to yours.
Take for example my personal opinion that the skill cap sucks. I am mature enough to compromise and live with a skill cap ONLY if they fix the system that was designed for a capless skill tree.
I can only think your opinion of me is one of a Bull trampling underfoot everyone that disagrees with me. This I can assure you simply is not the case and untill you recognise that fact we will just continue butting heads like Klingons until our skulls crack or one or both gets bored of doing so.
Then they should have demanded more time to do it. The fact the IP was under a different dev team for years and that team did nothing meant that cryptic had to start from scratch, so what. Cryptic had to have known that going in. This has nothing to do with changing base mechanics in a game 2 weeks before launch.
You don't know much about business, do you? If I'm giving you the right to my multi-billion-dollar IP, you don't tell me how it's going to be done, especially not after I already spent millions that was washed down the drain by a previous competitor of mine.
Cryptic DID know they were starting from scratch. The only reason they GOT the IP is because they already had an engine in place, so they knew they could have a working product out within the timeframe specified by CBS - and we got a working product, whether you want to admit it or not.
And yes, this most likely has to do with the skill cap being implemented, as the short dev cycle required less testing, so they didn't find out about the problems with the capless system until the end of CB. That gives them just enough time to program a skill point cap and have it in-game by launch, with enough time to announce it.
Really they planned all along to have a skill cap?
And despite your negative undertones once again.....my ego has nothing at all to do with this. I fail to see why you would assume my ego has anything to do with all this unless you were hoping to provoke a negative response from me.
Stop trying to pick at everything and try working with the rest of your fellow forum users. Whatever your opinion is you need to compromise in order to find some sort of happy middle ground with the rest of the forum. If you do not then all you serve to acchieve is to alienate yourself from EVERYONE ELSE that has a different opinion to yours.
Take for example my personal opinion that the skill cap sucks. I am mature enough to compromise and live with a skill cap ONLY if they fix the system that was designed for a capless skill tree.
I can only think your opinion of me is one of a Bull trampling underfoot everyone that disagrees with me. This I can assure you simply is not the case and untill you recognise that fact we will just continue butting heads like Klingons until our skulls crack or one or both gets bored of doing so.
Wow. For someone accusing ME of taking things out of context, you sure are pretty good at it, too.
I didn't say the SKILL CAP was planned all along, only that the fixes announced in the dev chat were most likely planned since the cap was designed and implemented in Open Beta.
Also, I don't NEED to compromise on anything. When I see BS, such as your initial post, I'll call it. Plain and simple.
You don't assume anything without a dev post? Then why are you assuming that this was implemented in response to your efforts? If it isn't an assumption, please link the dev post that says it was not going to be done, but you guys QQ'ed long enough so they did it anyway.
And there you have it. I am done with trying to have an intellectually based debate with you if you have to resort to immature name calling tactics. This just highlights your lack of integrity as a person. Despite many attempts at having a reasonable discussion with you, you have bowed to your own frustration and blown away your credibility.
And there you have it. I am done with trying to have an intellectually based debate with you if you have to resort to immature name calling tactics. This just highlights your lack of integrity as a person. Despite many attempts at having a reasonable discussion with you, you have bowed to your own frustration and blown away your credibility.
If you don't think that QQ is apt, search for the massive, 7000+ post thread on this subject, started in Open Beta, and tell me that there wasn't QQ. Did I say you, specifically, QQ'ed? No. I wouldn't name names, as I have no idea anymore who did the QQing, but there was a whole hell of a lot of it there, in that thread.
You don't know much about business, do you? If I'm giving you the right to my multi-billion-dollar IP, you don't tell me how it's going to be done, especially not after I already spent millions that was washed down the drain by a previous competitor of mine.
Cryptic DID know they were starting from scratch. The only reason they GOT the IP is because they already had an engine in place, so they knew they could have a working product out within the timeframe specified by CBS - and we got a working product, whether you want to admit it or not.
And yes, this most likely has to do with the skill cap being implemented, as the short dev cycle required less testing, so they didn't find out about the problems with the capless system until the end of CB. That gives them just enough time to program a skill point cap and have it in-game by launch, with enough time to announce it.
So my competator screwed up, so I should give you a break? Does the product "work", with mmos you have to define that a bit clearer, to me a "working" MMO not only has to capture my attention but give me a reason to keep paying sub fees, sto got my attention all right but yeah nada on the keeping up a subscription aspect, as it stands the game is not worth it. heres the thing the game as it right now I would not be playing if it was free to play, level a few char to 45 and noithing to do until they fix the skill system, till then there is no chance I will pay any further money for this game. so you tell me does the game work?
alphadelta: Given that a focused build will be as powerful as any build available with no skill point cap how does the skill point cap ensure that content is not trivial?
The skill point cap is actually set low enough that players will not be able to max out every skill on their way to Admiral. There will be gaps. For instance, you will not be able to spend all the skill points in the Starship Deflectors and Emitters trees. Additionally, this allows for a clean leveling curve. When we release new content, and raise the skill point cap, we can balance this content for both old and new players alike, making sure that it's fun for everyone. This also puts us in a position where we're not forcing new players to grind out a bunch of skill points in order to see newer content, or releasing content that older players will breeze through with no challenge due to how many skill points they have in order to maintain a clean leveling curve.
Lets keep this really simple.
Cryptic: We put a cap on skills because apparantly having everyone with every skill would make content 'trivial'
Reality: A person with every skill will be no more stronger than one with a focused build. Its in the goddamn question and the Cryptic response TOTALLY ignored that part.
FOCUSED BUILD WILL BE AS POWERFUL AS ANY BUILD WITH NO SKILL CAP.
There is no power difference so any content that is trivial for one will be trivial for the other. More skills add variety, not power thus it means someone can choose to run the 'content' using Polarons OR Phasers in a Science ship OR a Tactical ship without taking a penalty because he isnt SKILLED in them.
Under the capped system, they are locked into the exact weapons and bridge officers powers their skills augment. Anything else is inefficient and less effective.
Grind out a bunch of skill points to see newer content ?
That is a complete lie. You dont have to grind skill points to see newer content UNLESS your tying that content to different levels.
Oh wait, your level is determined by your skill points - Cryptic realised they shot themselves with this mechanic apparantly.
By 'shot themselves' in the foot I do of course mean cheated themselves out of money. They want to bring in future expansions that raise the skill cap which would naturally come with new content. Unfortunatly that new content and skills would be tied to levels and if everyone has maxed level they instantly level up.
Of course, they could set the sp amount difference between each grade to compensate but that leads to the issue with 'Grinding skillpoints for new content'
Thus, the issue is the simple fact that Cryptic made a dodgey leveling mechanic by tying to SP amount and that their future expansion plans for future levels cant allow people to have every skill trained.
However, this brings up a major problem:
Kosch25: Is the low cap which only allows 16 skillups at admiral rank intended to be there until level cap is raised in the future?
The level cap will be increased to Rear Admiral Grade 10 in a larger update later this year. Additionally, a new Respec system will be added. At that point you can earn more Skill Points and purchase and rearrange your skills.
So until later this year if you get to Rear Admiral 5 you might as well just quit the game cause there is going to be absolutly nothing to do skill wise.
Rear Admiral 5 gets you 8000 points to spend, thus I suppose 10 might be another 8000 in theory.
Admiral skills cost 4500 so 'later this year' Admirals should have 3 9/9 and 1 at 5/9.
One of those is going to be your T5 Ship, the other two are likely to be engineering / science skills mostly. Admiral weapon systems are simply not worth it in their current forms but we will get to that with the last question
Its an improvement but with 16 Admiral skills its going to restrict certain builds.
A.K.A I dont see many Tactical officers putting points into Admiral Ground skills
As for the respecs: why not put the respecs AND the RA 10 feature TOGETHER. Thats when everyone is going to be able to make a fully informed choice on respecs. As it is, no matter how many times you respec noone is going to be able to have more than 1 9/9 Admiral skill and 6/9 in another.
This is even more of an issue given the following question indicates they want earlier T3 / 4 skills to carry through to T5. Thus while respecing out of those skills NOW might be an option when they kick in with that you will have to respec BACK into T3 / 4 skills if you want the maximum benefit to your T5 ship.
Liquidisim: The starship skills such as Heavy Escort, do those carry thru to higher level ships such as fleet escort. If they apply only to t3 ships, then there is no point in having those skills come endgame.
There is hardly no point, though these skills currently become less useful in the endgame. However, we are in the process of changing this. All ship skills will grant some bonus to the ship above it. So an Assault Cruiser will benefit from Starship Captain, Cruiser Captain, Heavy Cruiser Captain, Exploration Cruiser Captain and Assault Cruiser Captain, but it will get the most benefit from Assault Cruiser Captain Skill. So if you want to maximize your Assault Cruiser, you will need all those skills. Note, the Assault Cruiser will not gain any benefit from the Star Cruiser Captain skill and vice-versa. The bonuses only affect ships upwards along the tree, not laterally.
At least Cryptic seem to be getting this right however given Cryptics performance on delivering what they say I will believe it when I see it.
SquidheadJax: Without the ability to expand our skills indefinitely, how is continuing to earn Bridge Officer SP even relevant, since our captain's skills won't be able to expand to make them useful?
As you gain levels, you can recruit more bridge officers. This allows you to have much more variety in the higher levels, with what officers you're using at stations, and on your away team. Furthermore, bridge officers come in different "quality" levels, much like items. More rare Bridge Officers have more traits and better abilities. Continuing to gain Bridge Officer skill points allows you to train-up brand new officers of a higher (rarer) quality, or use them to improve the skills of your existing Bridge Officers. As you improve your roster of Bridge Officer, and acquire new ships, you will learn new ways to combine them all and optimize your build. Also, look for a Bridge Officer Trading system soon.
This answer didnt address the second part of the question. Namely that by limiting the players skills it limits bridge officer power options.
If the captain is trained in Sensor array they are going to use powers that take the benefit from those skills. Using powers that are against the captains skills will be less efficient thus tractor beam is much less useful and captains without the specific bonus to it will be less likely to use it.
Its going to be rare indeed to find officers that have Stun Grenade III or Target Optics III because those skills require someone to skill in high tier ground skills to train them. Incidentally, this is going to create a MASSIVE market for alts and farmers because they can train an alt in certain skills, train them to Bridge officers and sell them for insane amounts because very few actual players will train those skills.
As for the 'Very rare' officer options. They need to make a better system for getting them outside of random requistions. Ideally I would tie it to the Mark / Dailies so that a person can BUY purple officers when they get X amount. Fully customisation options including TRAITS, RACE AND GENDER would make these extremely coveted and provide an ongoing endgame crafiting for high level characters.
BigBadB: Given that the more exotic weapon types (Plasma, Tetryon, Antiproton, Polaron, Transphasic, Chroniton, Tricobalt) are no stronger than the basic types (Phaser, Disruptor, Photon, Quantum), having equivalent DPS but different 'special effects', why do they cost more skill points per level? Why would a player spend 4500 skill points maxing one of the 'Tier 5' weapon types, when they can gain the same combat effectiveness from spending a mere 2700 points on one of the 'Tier 3' types? What advantage do they gain from buying the more expensive skills?
The different effects are key! It all depends on play style. Once you start breaking into the special weapons, you have to figure out which special effects work well with others. Just having 1 exotic weapon may not do so much for you, but if you can get a few, with special effects that work well together, that's when they get MUCH more powerful. There's also style to take into account! Some people just like having exotic weapons, but how rare and exotic can it be if it costs the same as normal weapons?
The different effects are not equal to the cost they require to use.
If I'm going expend 4500 points on anti-proton weapons they better have something more tangible than a stupid effect. Otherwise make all weapons cost the same SP wise and allow people to choose their weapon systems effectively without gimping their overall performance.
Or, follow the same principle as ground weapons and remove weapon types all together and make the weapon skills universal to ALL weapons. Energy weapons at least could benefit from this since their effects are all that distinguish them. Torpedoes can remain within their types and even expand on them to be more role-based.
I will also point out once again.
IF 'NORMAL' weapons are meant to be more abundant A.K.A Phasers then why the hell are the selections in exploration stores / mark store and Crafting stores so barren that they barely offer full sets of 'Normal' weapons and directly encourage people to go with 'exotic' equipment.
Its not rare nor unique if the game actually FORCES you to use specific types of equipment because they dont offer a proper selection.
Thus, I demand that variety be offered to allow people to CHOOSE for both ground AND space. If you want anti-proton to be rare then it isnt going to be so if anti-proton is the only endgame weapon system offered through dailies and those like me that want PHASERs ETC. get shafted.
So my competator screwed up, so I should give you a break? Does the product "work", with mmos you have to define that a bit clearer, to me a "working" MMO not only has to capture my attention but give me a reason to keep paying sub fees, sto got my attention all right but yeah nada on the keeping up a subscription aspect, as it stands the game is not worth it. heres the thing the game as it right now I would not be playing if it was free to play, level a few char to 45 and noithing to do until they fix the skill system, till then there is no chance I will pay any further money for this game. so you tell me does the game work?
If you want the IP, you're damned right you need to cut me some slack, and do what I tell you to do. I own the IP, after all, not you, and I don't need to have an MMO made from it to make money, whereas you need to make MMO's, and my IP is just too good to pass up.
Also, as to the game working, could you install the game? Were you able to connect and play? I'm assuming so, as, if I read this post correctly, you have a level 45 character, which means you not only could play, you did have to play through quite a bit of the available content, to boot. That's all that is necessary for a "working" MMO.
Comments
Sounds like content we should have now, but I bet they save it for a paid expansion
The cracks are starting to appear.
Yup, the foundations of this game are not very stable base to build upon. Some things just wont ever improve due to some very ignorant short cut solutions to bang out STO in just 2 years back to back with CO. STO is a game I'll dabble in through 2010, but doubt I'll play 2011 onwards since the games depth and community tools just don't have any longevity.
I don't see how you could make this claim, as most of it is some stuff they've said before, and the rest is stuff that they just haven't said before now.
I am VERY disappointed in their responses as a result.
They designed the skill system to have no cap, stuck a cap on at the last minute (literally), and now think we are going to put points into the higher tier weapons that have the SAME DPS as the lower tier ones, just because "different weapons are cool"? Right...if anyone seriously believes that one, I've got a nice bridge over here for sale...
The thing is if they had kept their original system intact, there are dozens of skills they could add to stay ahead of players, if not hundreds. Just off the top of my head I can think of skills affecting:
Ground weapon DPS - one skill for each type of weapon, like the ships
Ground armor HP - one skill of each type of armor
Ground shield HP
Reducing the timers on hypos
A real skill based crafting system - this could include several skills at each tier
Tractor beam range
Battery power
Splitting the ship specific skills so one improves turn rate, one HP, etc. instead of having one skill each tier do all
Skills that allow transwarping to different sector blocks
Sensor range
Not to mention new subtypes of ships and weapons
and I'm sure there are many more...
I would love to know why they changed the system at the last minute. Not enough pre-orders? Big budget cut from Atari? Key people quitting? Whatever the reason, a lot more than just the ship skills need to be changed if the cap remains in place.
didnt one of these things tell me their was no skill cap
do you see what your words are worth to your customers yet cryptic after this month is up and players abandon ship im pretty sure it will hit you clearly.
remove the spin what is there there?
ok we know the skills don't make sense we changed the system right before launch cause we think we can make more money we will some time get arround to fixing it we think some time this year, we hope.
"The level cap will be increased to Rear Admiral Grade 10 in a larger update later this year. Additionally, a new Respec system will be added. At that point you can earn more Skill Points and purchase and rearrange your skills."
so some time this year i guess the 1-2 months thing got tossed out once they realized just how screwed it is.
"There is hardly no point, though these skills currently become less useful in the endgame. However, we are in the process of changing this. All ship skills will grant some bonus to the ship above it. So an Assault Cruiser will benefit from Starship Captain, Cruiser Captain, Heavy Cruiser Captain, Exploration Cruiser Captain and Assault Cruiser Captain, but it will get the most benefit from Assault Cruiser Captain Skill. So if you want to maximize your Assault Cruiser, you will need all those skills. Note, the Assault Cruiser will not gain any benefit from the Star Cruiser Captain skill and vice-versa. The bonuses only affect ships upwards along the tree, not laterally."
oops we had a dead end path because we had unlimited skill points, we are gonna try to change it without completed TRIBBLE the players over, we hope.
"The different effects are key! It all depends on play style. Once you start breaking into the special weapons, you have to figure out which special effects work well with others. Just having 1 exotic weapon may not do so much for you, but if you can get a few, with special effects that work well together, that's when they get MUCH more powerful. There's also style to take into account! Some people just like having exotic weapons, but how rare and exotic can it be if it costs the same as normal weapons?"
we had a system where the weapons were balanced, we are going to change that to justify the higher cost of some of the weapons training, we think we can do it right...
the game was rushed jedidethfreak, to me the massive shift in design going from a capless to a capped system 2 weeks before launch confirms this. The skill system how it would be the basic premises behind it are something that should have been decided 18 or more months ago. to fundamentaly change the system 2 weeks before live you will have issues to put it mildly.
"
Edited for greater accuracy.
Also, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't rushed. I know it was rushed. I'm also not arguing that you wouldn't have issues. My question, though, is how could this episode of Ask Cryptic be taken as a "victory" to the anti-skill-point-cap crowd? The closest it comes to addressing any of the issues they've brought up was that they'll make Tier 3 and 4 ship skills useful for Tier 5 eventually, which was assumed almost right off the bat after the cap was announced anyway.
I'm starting to think that perhaps you simply enjoy just opposing whatever I say with no thought about what it REALLY is that you are saying. I highlighted that bit in the quote because I just fail to see exaclty what you are try say by this. I agree most of it they have mentioned before and some of it isn't. What is your point?
Others along with myself have been talking about these issues and in particular the ship skills point for ages ONLY to have you and others like you blast away at our analysis of the skill system. This response SHOWS that the devs know that it is messed up and are attempting to fix SOME of the issues at hand.
I must point out to the other posters that I did say 'Small victory' as a lot of the stuff in it is still not adequate and still messed up, BUT, we are getting through to them.
So we will all be Rear Admiral Grade 5's until later this year when we can go up another 5 levels to Rear Admiral Grade 10?
I hope we have lots to do then.
I haven't blasted the analysis of the skill system, only that there was a de-facto problem with the skill system - as confirmed by Stormshade and dstahl - and a cap was the easiest way to fix it in the short term. I also took issue with the myriad armchair-programmer ideas for fixing it, as they all presented problems with were just as bad. The devs new it was bad when they implemented the cap, and said so at the very beginning.
Finally, my point of contention is that you aren't getting through to them, as this is surely all stuff they've been planning, even without your input. If your ego can't accept that, so be it.
The level cap and the possibleity of future raising of the level cap should have been something decided long before any coding happened. Either they were incompetent then or greedy just before launch, I prefer the greedy option, at least then they may have the talent and skill to repair the system, otherwise this game which I do enjoy is doomed.
Yep, because mistakes have never been made in the history of game programming, right?
Interestingly once again you are taking what was said and are changing it for your own benefit.
Firstly you said 'victory'. I said 'Small Victory'
Secondly you said 'anti-skill-point-cap crowd'. I said 'Skill Cap issues'
Your point that I highlighted I agree with. (hooray) But you said 'assumed'. I can only think that you meant the forum assumed this as I have not seen any dev saying anything like this. I am sorry but I don't like to work from assumptions and untill a dev/cryptic states something for fact I will not simply assume something. This is one such time that they have stated something. What this does is to validate that what i am trying to acchieve here is having some sort of impact with the devs.
Make NO MISTAKE that I am doing this BECAUSE I am a massive fan of the IP and don't want to give up because I personally believe that Cryptic have dropped the ball with this game.
Yes mistakes have been made in the history of game programming, but rarely on the scale that appears to have happened with this game. can you give me an example of a similar change in design philosophy close to launch (ei less then one month to launch) or post launch that has turned out well in the long run. examples where the change cause months of delay before launch so they could fix the system do not count.
isn't dropping the ball putting a bit mildly? this game should not have launched feb 2, 2010
You don't assume anything without a dev post? Then why are you assuming that this was implemented in response to your efforts? If it isn't an assumption, please link the dev post that says it was not going to be done, but you guys QQ'ed long enough so they did it anyway.
No, I can't, just like you can't give an example of a game that had a severely shortened dev cycle because the IP it's based on was given to you after the previous development team squandered an entire dev cycle - along with millions of dollars and, quite literally, the whole company - to make concept art and no code that launched with everything that was ever promised.
Then they should have demanded more time to do it. The fact the IP was under a different dev team for years and that team did nothing meant that cryptic had to start from scratch, so what. Cryptic had to have known that going in. This has nothing to do with changing base mechanics in a game 2 weeks before launch.
Really they planned all along to have a skill cap?
And despite your negative undertones once again.....my ego has nothing at all to do with this. I fail to see why you would assume my ego has anything to do with all this unless you were hoping to provoke a negative response from me.
Stop trying to pick at everything and try working with the rest of your fellow forum users. Whatever your opinion is you need to compromise in order to find some sort of happy middle ground with the rest of the forum. If you do not then all you serve to acchieve is to alienate yourself from EVERYONE ELSE that has a different opinion to yours.
Take for example my personal opinion that the skill cap sucks. I am mature enough to compromise and live with a skill cap ONLY if they fix the system that was designed for a capless skill tree.
I can only think your opinion of me is one of a Bull trampling underfoot everyone that disagrees with me. This I can assure you simply is not the case and untill you recognise that fact we will just continue butting heads like Klingons until our skulls crack or one or both gets bored of doing so.
You don't know much about business, do you? If I'm giving you the right to my multi-billion-dollar IP, you don't tell me how it's going to be done, especially not after I already spent millions that was washed down the drain by a previous competitor of mine.
Cryptic DID know they were starting from scratch. The only reason they GOT the IP is because they already had an engine in place, so they knew they could have a working product out within the timeframe specified by CBS - and we got a working product, whether you want to admit it or not.
And yes, this most likely has to do with the skill cap being implemented, as the short dev cycle required less testing, so they didn't find out about the problems with the capless system until the end of CB. That gives them just enough time to program a skill point cap and have it in-game by launch, with enough time to announce it.
Wow. For someone accusing ME of taking things out of context, you sure are pretty good at it, too.
I didn't say the SKILL CAP was planned all along, only that the fixes announced in the dev chat were most likely planned since the cap was designed and implemented in Open Beta.
Also, I don't NEED to compromise on anything. When I see BS, such as your initial post, I'll call it. Plain and simple.
And there you have it. I am done with trying to have an intellectually based debate with you if you have to resort to immature name calling tactics. This just highlights your lack of integrity as a person. Despite many attempts at having a reasonable discussion with you, you have bowed to your own frustration and blown away your credibility.
If you don't think that QQ is apt, search for the massive, 7000+ post thread on this subject, started in Open Beta, and tell me that there wasn't QQ. Did I say you, specifically, QQ'ed? No. I wouldn't name names, as I have no idea anymore who did the QQing, but there was a whole hell of a lot of it there, in that thread.
So my competator screwed up, so I should give you a break? Does the product "work", with mmos you have to define that a bit clearer, to me a "working" MMO not only has to capture my attention but give me a reason to keep paying sub fees, sto got my attention all right but yeah nada on the keeping up a subscription aspect, as it stands the game is not worth it. heres the thing the game as it right now I would not be playing if it was free to play, level a few char to 45 and noithing to do until they fix the skill system, till then there is no chance I will pay any further money for this game. so you tell me does the game work?
Lets keep this really simple.
Cryptic: We put a cap on skills because apparantly having everyone with every skill would make content 'trivial'
Reality: A person with every skill will be no more stronger than one with a focused build. Its in the goddamn question and the Cryptic response TOTALLY ignored that part.
FOCUSED BUILD WILL BE AS POWERFUL AS ANY BUILD WITH NO SKILL CAP.
There is no power difference so any content that is trivial for one will be trivial for the other. More skills add variety, not power thus it means someone can choose to run the 'content' using Polarons OR Phasers in a Science ship OR a Tactical ship without taking a penalty because he isnt SKILLED in them.
Under the capped system, they are locked into the exact weapons and bridge officers powers their skills augment. Anything else is inefficient and less effective.
Grind out a bunch of skill points to see newer content ?
That is a complete lie. You dont have to grind skill points to see newer content UNLESS your tying that content to different levels.
Oh wait, your level is determined by your skill points - Cryptic realised they shot themselves with this mechanic apparantly.
By 'shot themselves' in the foot I do of course mean cheated themselves out of money. They want to bring in future expansions that raise the skill cap which would naturally come with new content. Unfortunatly that new content and skills would be tied to levels and if everyone has maxed level they instantly level up.
Of course, they could set the sp amount difference between each grade to compensate but that leads to the issue with 'Grinding skillpoints for new content'
Thus, the issue is the simple fact that Cryptic made a dodgey leveling mechanic by tying to SP amount and that their future expansion plans for future levels cant allow people to have every skill trained.
However, this brings up a major problem:
So until later this year if you get to Rear Admiral 5 you might as well just quit the game cause there is going to be absolutly nothing to do skill wise.
Rear Admiral 5 gets you 8000 points to spend, thus I suppose 10 might be another 8000 in theory.
Admiral skills cost 4500 so 'later this year' Admirals should have 3 9/9 and 1 at 5/9.
One of those is going to be your T5 Ship, the other two are likely to be engineering / science skills mostly. Admiral weapon systems are simply not worth it in their current forms but we will get to that with the last question
Its an improvement but with 16 Admiral skills its going to restrict certain builds.
A.K.A I dont see many Tactical officers putting points into Admiral Ground skills
As for the respecs: why not put the respecs AND the RA 10 feature TOGETHER. Thats when everyone is going to be able to make a fully informed choice on respecs. As it is, no matter how many times you respec noone is going to be able to have more than 1 9/9 Admiral skill and 6/9 in another.
This is even more of an issue given the following question indicates they want earlier T3 / 4 skills to carry through to T5. Thus while respecing out of those skills NOW might be an option when they kick in with that you will have to respec BACK into T3 / 4 skills if you want the maximum benefit to your T5 ship.
At least Cryptic seem to be getting this right however given Cryptics performance on delivering what they say I will believe it when I see it.
This answer didnt address the second part of the question. Namely that by limiting the players skills it limits bridge officer power options.
If the captain is trained in Sensor array they are going to use powers that take the benefit from those skills. Using powers that are against the captains skills will be less efficient thus tractor beam is much less useful and captains without the specific bonus to it will be less likely to use it.
Its going to be rare indeed to find officers that have Stun Grenade III or Target Optics III because those skills require someone to skill in high tier ground skills to train them. Incidentally, this is going to create a MASSIVE market for alts and farmers because they can train an alt in certain skills, train them to Bridge officers and sell them for insane amounts because very few actual players will train those skills.
As for the 'Very rare' officer options. They need to make a better system for getting them outside of random requistions. Ideally I would tie it to the Mark / Dailies so that a person can BUY purple officers when they get X amount. Fully customisation options including TRAITS, RACE AND GENDER would make these extremely coveted and provide an ongoing endgame crafiting for high level characters.
The different effects are not equal to the cost they require to use.
If I'm going expend 4500 points on anti-proton weapons they better have something more tangible than a stupid effect. Otherwise make all weapons cost the same SP wise and allow people to choose their weapon systems effectively without gimping their overall performance.
Or, follow the same principle as ground weapons and remove weapon types all together and make the weapon skills universal to ALL weapons. Energy weapons at least could benefit from this since their effects are all that distinguish them. Torpedoes can remain within their types and even expand on them to be more role-based.
I will also point out once again.
IF 'NORMAL' weapons are meant to be more abundant A.K.A Phasers then why the hell are the selections in exploration stores / mark store and Crafting stores so barren that they barely offer full sets of 'Normal' weapons and directly encourage people to go with 'exotic' equipment.
Its not rare nor unique if the game actually FORCES you to use specific types of equipment because they dont offer a proper selection.
Thus, I demand that variety be offered to allow people to CHOOSE for both ground AND space. If you want anti-proton to be rare then it isnt going to be so if anti-proton is the only endgame weapon system offered through dailies and those like me that want PHASERs ETC. get shafted.
If you want the IP, you're damned right you need to cut me some slack, and do what I tell you to do. I own the IP, after all, not you, and I don't need to have an MMO made from it to make money, whereas you need to make MMO's, and my IP is just too good to pass up.
Also, as to the game working, could you install the game? Were you able to connect and play? I'm assuming so, as, if I read this post correctly, you have a level 45 character, which means you not only could play, you did have to play through quite a bit of the available content, to boot. That's all that is necessary for a "working" MMO.
That could mean June, but probably not until November. Think about doing nothing but worthless dailies over and over and over gain until then.
Yah, that's it- I'm out.