Just a note about comparing EvE skill system to STO skill system: They are completely different. Eve online skill training is based on time subscribed, not how quickly you kill enemies and level. Other than implants to raise stats there is NOTHING you can do in eve to make that 3 months to level 1 skill into a 2 months to level 1 skill.
Imagine needing 1 month to just get spaceship operations 9. And every other skill in game to 0.
There is nothing in that Ask Cryptic they haven't said or hinted at before except for the promise to redo the ship skills so each will affect the other tiers.
I am VERY disappointed in their responses as a result.
They designed the skill system to have no cap, stuck a cap on at the last minute (literally), and now think we are going to put points into the higher tier weapons that have the SAME DPS as the lower tier ones, just because "different weapons are cool"? Right...if anyone seriously believes that one, I've got a nice bridge over here for sale...
The thing is if they had kept their original system intact, there are dozens of skills they could add to stay ahead of players, if not hundreds. Just off the top of my head I can think of skills affecting:
Ground weapon DPS - one skill for each type of weapon, like the ships
Ground armor HP - one skill of each type of armor
Ground shield HP
Reducing the timers on hypos
A real skill based crafting system - this could include several skills at each tier
Tractor beam range
Battery power
Splitting the ship specific skills so one improves turn rate, one HP, etc. instead of having one skill each tier do all
Skills that allow transwarping to different sector blocks
Sensor range
Not to mention new subtypes of ships and weapons
and I'm sure there are many more...
I would love to know why they changed the system at the last minute. Not enough pre-orders? Big budget cut from Atari? Key people quitting? Whatever the reason, a lot more than just the ship skills need to be changed if the cap remains in place.
If you dont mind im going to save this for later and try clubbing it into as many peopls heads as I can.
I like this idea.
Do that for all the weapon types and offer ALL of them from Lt > Admiral in FULL selection ranges and it allows people to choose their weapon type from start to finish. It encourages specialisation and increases effectiveness of the chosen weapon system.
Do that for all the weapon types and offer ALL of them from Lt > Admiral in FULL selection ranges and it allows people to choose their weapon type from start to finish. It encourages specialisation and increases effectiveness of the chosen weapon system.
Yep, you're basically saying the same as me (check my previous post).
When the basic damage output for ALL weapon types of the same "mark" level is equal, but the "additional benefits" of each weapon type differ but are still comparable in potency, then you cannot charge different costs for increasing their potency. But you CAN charge a cost for increasing the power for each of them but at the same rate as increasing the power on another.
But before such changes are implemented, we need a working respec system (which charges in energy credits NOT real money) for players to use once they are introduced.
Notice how Exploration missions scale to the level of the person that enters them ?
Incorporate that mechanic into missions and it dosent matter what level you are because the missions will automatically scale to your level and be of equal grade. Thus if a level 50 runs SS Azura they will face level 50 enemies.
As for content being tied to specific levels, thats easy to solve as well. Make them chain rather than be individual episodes.
Thus you have to complete all episodes IN ORDER from SS Azura all the way to end Admiral missions.
Things like Fleet actions can be given out without specific chains but those wouldnt be a problem against scaling because those are meant for FLEETs and scaled for fleets of players.
Thus, a skillcap wouldnt be needed.
So, you want me to have to do content I may not WANT to do - all the way from the beginning of the ****ing game - in order to experience content I paid for, just so you can have unlimited SP, even though, by your own admission, having maxed out all skills gives you no greater advantage in the game than me NOT being maxed out?
This is an example of armchair programmers not even attempting to be realistic. You do know that you can get to max level solely by PvP, right? Or just by exploration missions? I'll use myself as an example - my main, at RADM5, got there solely on Episodes and Patrol missions. However, to save time, my two alts are going to be getting there via Exploration missions, because it's faster to get there IMO. Now, if we took your idea, and I spent the money for an expansion, I could only check out that stuff on one of my characters, without having to do the entire story on my other characters.
Oh, the "second set of skill points" idea? How would that be managed? Only missions in certain areas give those out? They only get spent after a certain level? There would be a ****-ton of things that need to be organized to even begin to program such a feat, and if it wasn't implemented before they raise the cap - for whatever reason - they'd be running into the exact problem they are trying to avoid by implementing the cap in the first place.
Please, if you want to argue about the necessity of the skill cap by coming up with crappy ideas, find the monster thread. I've addressed every conceivable idea on how to make unlimited SP work in there. Feel free to post in there, that way I don't have to read it, because I haven't read that thread since before launch.
Just a note about comparing EvE skill system to STO skill system: They are completely different. Eve online skill training is based on time subscribed, not how quickly you kill enemies and level. Other than implants to raise stats there is NOTHING you can do in eve to make that 3 months to level 1 skill into a 2 months to level 1 skill.
Imagine needing 1 month to just get spaceship operations 9. And every other skill in game to 0.
I disagree.
You can most definitely directly compare the EvE and STO skill systems, you just have to ignore the times and methods required to attain the points needed to advance each system as this is irrelevant to the discussion.
EvE has a logical progressive system, STO is just a befuddled mess with no logic to it whatsoever and no explanation of what half the skills actually do so you are forced to "suck it and see".
EvE, you have to train a basic ship type to advance, thats logical skill progression.
STO you can avoid training a single cruiser skill until Admiral, without a single skill point in any Cruiser skill you can still go out and fly any cruiser and be very effective using other skills from science and tactical skill boxes.
You are forced in STO to put skill points into skills you don't need nor want after you have maxxed out the ones you want and need before it will let you advance a rank. There is no logic to this whatsoever.
Just a note about comparing EvE skill system to STO skill system: They are completely different. Eve online skill training is based on time subscribed, not how quickly you kill enemies and level. Other than implants to raise stats there is NOTHING you can do in eve to make that 3 months to level 1 skill into a 2 months to level 1 skill.
Imagine needing 1 month to just get spaceship operations 9. And every other skill in game to 0.
Skill system comparison, if STO had stayed as originally announced:
STO - no skill cap
Eve - no skill cap
Players are only limited by what they can equip at any given time.
STO - decreasing benefits as you increase points spent on a skill
Eve - same benefits per level, with max being level 5, so at level 4 you are 80% as effective as you can get
The main point here is that level 4 for most skills in Eve is "enough" and level 5 often is not worthwhile, or can be put off, as it takes a lot longer to train than levels 1-4. STO's system is actually quite similar in that spreading points out and training several skills to mid level is overall more beneficial than maxxing a few. This assumes you can max them later, as needed and desired though.
STO - based on mob kills and mission completions
Eve - time based
You are correct that this is the big difference. Yet no one today, even someone who have played Eve since day one eight years ago has maxxed out every skill. Why? Because Eve has added skills over time, as was promised for STO. Those same players would easily have maxxed out the original skills if none had been added.
As for taking a month to level up one skill completely. Yes, I could see that in STO, for the skills above Admiral 10 that would not rank a player up. If there were any, and they hadn't switched horses in mid-stream.
You can most definitely directly compare the EvE and STO skill systems, you just have to ignore the times and methods required to attain the points needed to advance each system as this is irrelevant to the discussion.
EvE has a logical progressive system, STO is just a befuddled mess with no logic to it whatsoever and no explanation of what half the skills actually do so you are forced to "suck it and see".
EvE, you have to train a basic ship type to advance, thats logical skill progression.
STO you can avoid training a single cruiser skill until Admiral, without a single skill point in any Cruiser skill you can still go out and fly any cruiser and be very effective using other skills from science and tactical skill boxes.
You are forced in STO to put skill points into skills you don't need nor want after you have maxxed out the ones you want and need before it will let you advance a rank. There is no logic to this whatsoever.
And I know from experience that the EvE skill system wasn't as good at launch as it is now. That took myriad changes that people didn't think would come from the company, because they didn't seem to understand the initial problems with the skill system as it was implemented.
This has got to be a first, when a developer actually throws complete bull-TRIBBLE in the face of every single player of the game, insists he didn't, and then wants to tell you that the reason you're covered in chocolate pudding that is neither chocolate nor pudding, is because it's STYLISH!
!
there is an example I can think of for that one, John Smedly in relation for the Star Wars Galaxies: NGE.
omg the TRIBBLE that spewed forth from his mouth, ever since I have never trusted a developer who use any kind of pr spin in a information release, give us the facts do not try to spin it.
my main, at RADM5, got there solely on Episodes and Patrol missions.
mind explaining how, because i find that hard to believe considering that even with all the exploration arcs, some patrol repetition, and an occasional fleet action i got stuck at lc 6 and had to do quite a lot of exploration missions to get out of that content hole, and effectively needed to do one exploration arc per level ever since?
After this Dev Post i lost most hope for this game.
Such bad explanations for their failure with the skill cap. The adition of the very rare antiproton weapons just shows clearly again that this game was not made for skill cap. The whole skill system is broken and many more player will realise when they get to admiral, and i dont think they will wait for months till this is fixed and then even pay more money for something they could expect to work when they buy the game now.
A car could not be sold with only 3 tyres and the promise to deliver the 4th some months later for a reduced price.
Only game companies think thy can treat their customers like this.
mind explaining how, because i find that hard to believe considering that even with all the exploration arcs, some patrol repetition, and an occasional fleet action i got stuck at lc 6 and had to do quite a lot of exploration missions to get out of that content hole, and effectively needed to do one exploration arc per level ever since?
I really don't know how, because I got to Lt. Com 1 before even starting an Episode, solely on Patrol missions. I hadn't even tried any Exploration content until I was almost Captain.
another B.S cryptic dev post with no relivance in reality
didnt one of these things tell me their was no skill cap
do you see what your words are worth to your customers yet cryptic after this month is up and players abandon ship im pretty sure it will hit you clearly.
This is what the player base is about to do come time to resub.
THIS is precisely the same issue that ALL MMO's face: How do you allow for character advancement and yet prevent the player from advancing in the primary system for progression?
The answer is the same:
Alternate Advancement systems that spur off from the main system of progression. Thus a player is able to advance whilst not actually affecting their position in the leveling system.
How do you apply this in STO? Well, allow people to accumulate points to add to their skills, but DONT allow them to accumulate the points to advance in the level system.
Right Here Cryptic pay attention. <
this person just solved your problem for you. Very simple obvious solution. Do this and you save the game for so many people. Quit throwing out spin about the special bonuses on weapons being why something is admiral when you know it is simply that the skill sytem was designed for NO cap. Take this persons advice and seperate the points gained while leveling and the points gained while maxed simple there you go. Thank you sir or mam.
So, you want me to have to do content I may not WANT to do - all the way from the beginning of the ****ing game - in order to experience content I paid for, just so you can have unlimited SP, even though, by your own admission, having maxed out all skills gives you no greater advantage in the game than me NOT being maxed out?
This is an example of armchair programmers not even attempting to be realistic. You do know that you can get to max level solely by PvP, right? Or just by exploration missions? I'll use myself as an example - my main, at RADM5, got there solely on Episodes and Patrol missions. However, to save time, my two alts are going to be getting there via Exploration missions, because it's faster to get there IMO. Now, if we took your idea, and I spent the money for an expansion, I could only check out that stuff on one of my characters, without having to do the entire story on my other characters.
Cryptic WANT you to do all the content or are you too stupid to realise that ?
The missions follow an order one after the other which currently is seperated by level. Chaining them will be no different and actually have people do the missions in order to experience the full story.
The only issue with this system is Cryptics inability to fix missions meaning if one mission cannot be completed a player will be unable to progress to the next.
Regardless, this only applies to actual MISSIONS. The freeform engagements like DSE, Exploration and Fleet Actions can still remain tied to level fairly easily. Thus if you can still level through other means.
Incidentally, I also have not done any missions, I leveled on Patrol missions and Exploration so now I am doing all the missions quite quickly. Of course this means I can breeze through Lt missions in a Admiral ship which is what Cryptic are specifically putting this cap on to prevent in the future.
Cryptic dont want that happening, remember ?
So IF missions are going to endorse the Exploration scaling capability - no skillcap is needed because each mission will be equal to the level of the person running it.
Oh, the "second set of skill points" idea? How would that be managed? Only missions in certain areas give those out? They only get spent after a certain level? There would be a ****-ton of things that need to be organized to even begin to program such a feat, and if it wasn't implemented before they raise the cap - for whatever reason - they'd be running into the exact problem they are trying to avoid by implementing the cap in the first place.
Cryptic are only just getting round to adding content that should have beein in release and the stuff that is coming is slated for 'later this year'. Respecs arent coming for "1 - 2 months " and those are one of the most crucial features required by their own lack of foresight.
Saying its going to take too much effort to make changes is just hilariously hypocritical and stupid. Cryptic are in a mess through their own lack of foresight and no matter what they are going to spend the next 1 - 2 years digging themselves out of it.
In the end, they can either stick to what they actually advertised and work towards an unskilled cap or they can remain a bunch of fools by putting a cap on a system that WAS NOT DESIGNED TO HAVE ONE.
Please, if you want to argue about the necessity of the skill cap by coming up with crappy ideas, find the monster thread. I've addressed every conceivable idea on how to make unlimited SP work in there. Feel free to post in there, that way I don't have to read it, because I haven't read that thread since before launch.
Or you can just not read and post. If you cant handle other opinions except your own then get off the forums until you learn.
Comments
Imagine needing 1 month to just get spaceship operations 9. And every other skill in game to 0.
If you dont mind im going to save this for later and try clubbing it into as many peopls heads as I can.
I like this idea.
A.K.A
Commander > Captain > Admiral
Phasers > Advanced Phasers > Phaser Specialist
Disruptors > Advanced Disruptors > Disruptor Specialist
Increase Damage > Increase Accuracy > Increase special effect chance
Do that for all the weapon types and offer ALL of them from Lt > Admiral in FULL selection ranges and it allows people to choose their weapon type from start to finish. It encourages specialisation and increases effectiveness of the chosen weapon system.
Yep, you're basically saying the same as me (check my previous post).
When the basic damage output for ALL weapon types of the same "mark" level is equal, but the "additional benefits" of each weapon type differ but are still comparable in potency, then you cannot charge different costs for increasing their potency. But you CAN charge a cost for increasing the power for each of them but at the same rate as increasing the power on another.
But before such changes are implemented, we need a working respec system (which charges in energy credits NOT real money) for players to use once they are introduced.
So, you want me to have to do content I may not WANT to do - all the way from the beginning of the ****ing game - in order to experience content I paid for, just so you can have unlimited SP, even though, by your own admission, having maxed out all skills gives you no greater advantage in the game than me NOT being maxed out?
This is an example of armchair programmers not even attempting to be realistic. You do know that you can get to max level solely by PvP, right? Or just by exploration missions? I'll use myself as an example - my main, at RADM5, got there solely on Episodes and Patrol missions. However, to save time, my two alts are going to be getting there via Exploration missions, because it's faster to get there IMO. Now, if we took your idea, and I spent the money for an expansion, I could only check out that stuff on one of my characters, without having to do the entire story on my other characters.
Oh, the "second set of skill points" idea? How would that be managed? Only missions in certain areas give those out? They only get spent after a certain level? There would be a ****-ton of things that need to be organized to even begin to program such a feat, and if it wasn't implemented before they raise the cap - for whatever reason - they'd be running into the exact problem they are trying to avoid by implementing the cap in the first place.
Please, if you want to argue about the necessity of the skill cap by coming up with crappy ideas, find the monster thread. I've addressed every conceivable idea on how to make unlimited SP work in there. Feel free to post in there, that way I don't have to read it, because I haven't read that thread since before launch.
I disagree.
You can most definitely directly compare the EvE and STO skill systems, you just have to ignore the times and methods required to attain the points needed to advance each system as this is irrelevant to the discussion.
EvE has a logical progressive system, STO is just a befuddled mess with no logic to it whatsoever and no explanation of what half the skills actually do so you are forced to "suck it and see".
EvE, you have to train a basic ship type to advance, thats logical skill progression.
STO you can avoid training a single cruiser skill until Admiral, without a single skill point in any Cruiser skill you can still go out and fly any cruiser and be very effective using other skills from science and tactical skill boxes.
You are forced in STO to put skill points into skills you don't need nor want after you have maxxed out the ones you want and need before it will let you advance a rank. There is no logic to this whatsoever.
Skill system comparison, if STO had stayed as originally announced:
STO - no skill cap
Eve - no skill cap
Players are only limited by what they can equip at any given time.
STO - decreasing benefits as you increase points spent on a skill
Eve - same benefits per level, with max being level 5, so at level 4 you are 80% as effective as you can get
The main point here is that level 4 for most skills in Eve is "enough" and level 5 often is not worthwhile, or can be put off, as it takes a lot longer to train than levels 1-4. STO's system is actually quite similar in that spreading points out and training several skills to mid level is overall more beneficial than maxxing a few. This assumes you can max them later, as needed and desired though.
STO - based on mob kills and mission completions
Eve - time based
You are correct that this is the big difference. Yet no one today, even someone who have played Eve since day one eight years ago has maxxed out every skill. Why? Because Eve has added skills over time, as was promised for STO. Those same players would easily have maxxed out the original skills if none had been added.
As for taking a month to level up one skill completely. Yes, I could see that in STO, for the skills above Admiral 10 that would not rank a player up. If there were any, and they hadn't switched horses in mid-stream.
And I know from experience that the EvE skill system wasn't as good at launch as it is now. That took myriad changes that people didn't think would come from the company, because they didn't seem to understand the initial problems with the skill system as it was implemented.
there is an example I can think of for that one, John Smedly in relation for the Star Wars Galaxies: NGE.
omg the TRIBBLE that spewed forth from his mouth, ever since I have never trusted a developer who use any kind of pr spin in a information release, give us the facts do not try to spin it.
Such bad explanations for their failure with the skill cap. The adition of the very rare antiproton weapons just shows clearly again that this game was not made for skill cap. The whole skill system is broken and many more player will realise when they get to admiral, and i dont think they will wait for months till this is fixed and then even pay more money for something they could expect to work when they buy the game now.
A car could not be sold with only 3 tyres and the promise to deliver the 4th some months later for a reduced price.
Only game companies think thy can treat their customers like this.
I really don't know how, because I got to Lt. Com 1 before even starting an Episode, solely on Patrol missions. I hadn't even tried any Exploration content until I was almost Captain.
This is what the player base is about to do come time to resub.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNOpFyPvx2I
Right Here Cryptic pay attention. <
this person just solved your problem for you. Very simple obvious solution. Do this and you save the game for so many people. Quit throwing out spin about the special bonuses on weapons being why something is admiral when you know it is simply that the skill sytem was designed for NO cap. Take this persons advice and seperate the points gained while leveling and the points gained while maxed simple there you go. Thank you sir or mam.
Cryptic WANT you to do all the content or are you too stupid to realise that ?
The missions follow an order one after the other which currently is seperated by level. Chaining them will be no different and actually have people do the missions in order to experience the full story.
The only issue with this system is Cryptics inability to fix missions meaning if one mission cannot be completed a player will be unable to progress to the next.
Regardless, this only applies to actual MISSIONS. The freeform engagements like DSE, Exploration and Fleet Actions can still remain tied to level fairly easily. Thus if you can still level through other means.
Incidentally, I also have not done any missions, I leveled on Patrol missions and Exploration so now I am doing all the missions quite quickly. Of course this means I can breeze through Lt missions in a Admiral ship which is what Cryptic are specifically putting this cap on to prevent in the future.
Cryptic dont want that happening, remember ?
So IF missions are going to endorse the Exploration scaling capability - no skillcap is needed because each mission will be equal to the level of the person running it.
Cryptic are only just getting round to adding content that should have beein in release and the stuff that is coming is slated for 'later this year'. Respecs arent coming for "1 - 2 months " and those are one of the most crucial features required by their own lack of foresight.
Saying its going to take too much effort to make changes is just hilariously hypocritical and stupid. Cryptic are in a mess through their own lack of foresight and no matter what they are going to spend the next 1 - 2 years digging themselves out of it.
In the end, they can either stick to what they actually advertised and work towards an unskilled cap or they can remain a bunch of fools by putting a cap on a system that WAS NOT DESIGNED TO HAVE ONE.
Or you can just not read and post. If you cant handle other opinions except your own then get off the forums until you learn.