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Issues with both new borg sphere's "Detonate" as well as continued use of "scan on activation"
xgamefreakz
Member Posts: 75 Arc User
This post will elaborate on all the issues with the new borg sphere's "detonate" effect as well as issues with continued use of the mechanic of "scan on activation".
The "scan on activation instead of scan on hit" issue affects the way the new spheres apply their "detonate" ability. The "scan on activation instead of scan on hit" issue was already an issue that I have voiced and explained earlier in detail that can be seen in my last 3 comments of this thread: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/13750442. It is to be noted that the issue is still present on the maelstrom torpedo and still decently reducing its overall effectiveness.
Briefly explained how it works, some abilities in this game have a "delay" when that ability has been "clicked" before the effect / condition of that ability actually "happens". Usually in the form of things like a time delay before the ability actually activates after clicking, or very commonly, the ability is projectile based, and has a travel time before it hits and applies it's effect. This means that it's usually better / more appropriate to have that effect / condition apply when the ability has actually happened, not when the ability has been "clicked", hence, scan (the effect / condition happening) on hit, rather than scan on activation (when you "click").
For example, for the maelstrom, the condition to get double damage, when say for using it against a battleship, is scanned on activation rather than on hit. Which means (also can be seen in the videos in those last 3 comments in that maelstrom thread), you can fire the maelstrom against a battleship, and can apply a shield offline (either by means of shooting it or with other effects) to the battleship relevant shield facing before the torpedo hits because it's still traveling, and the torpedo hits with the shield facing at zero, and it won't trigger the double damage. Because the condition for double damage was taken when you "clicked" on the maelstrom while the battleship had its shield facing up, essentially "securing" its reduced damage, even though the end result was that the maelstrom hit the battleship with its shield facing down.
For the new sphere "detonote" ability, it applies similarly. If you kill one of the new spheres while under 5km range, right at that moment it has "secured" damaging you with the detonate ability because of it's "scan on activation". Which means even if you tried to run far away after that it will still hit you. This is why people are wondering why they are still getting hit by the detonate even if they're far away.
Here is a video with many parts to showcase many details and issues with the sphere "detonate" ability:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hfE2Y9umhU4MFza5QPrHo4_4qmvjynqw/view?usp=sharing (video in 4k, needs download for sharper viewing)
First part of the video shows the range of the sphere detonating effect; detonation destroying 2 probe and heavily damaging self while the evacuating ship is not hit, range is likely to be 5km.
2nd part of the video show casing that the sphere detonating can damage and destroy evacuating ships if within range.
3rd part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; activating untargettable before destroying sphere while remaining within detonation range does not give self the explosion hit (activating temporal surge before sphere reached 0hp) (detonation did happen as can be seen from the animation as well as the probe being affected by it and getting destroyed).
4th part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; activating untargettable after destroying sphere while remaining within detonation range does give self the explosion hit (activating temporal surge after sphere reached 0hp).
5th and 6th part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; futile attempts to evade the detonation after sphere "secures" detonation hit to player if killed while in range.
7th part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; since it only scans on activation, if sphere was killed outside detonation range, it will not damage you even if you move within range afterwards.
8th part of the video showcasing one of the badly positioned spawn point of the sphere; too close to the evacuation route.
9th part of the video showcasing same cruiser/frigate spawn point on defense of starbase one TFO, likely implying the new TFO enemy spawn points was copy-pasted.
Theres also the issue with scaling. On normal difficulty (only choice atm) it does, as seen in the video above, like around 85k damage. That is very high for normal difficulty, enough to one shot many players especially if they don't have hull capacity from endeavors. I went to look on elite difficulty if it really would hit for something like 300-500k but unfortunately on the campaign mission, the detonate effect does not occur from the spheres in that mission, only occurs in the 2 new TFOs, of which only the normal difficulty is present.
With all the information above, these are the issues the sphere detonation presents currently:
- There will be people just wondering why are they getting massive damage out of no where / lack of awareness of why they are getting hit, and also lack of awareness of why the evacuating ships are getting blown up even though people are shooting down the enemy.
- The damage of the sphere detonation is too high; this effect is in my opinion currently too punishing, given the HP of most ships and a much less likeliness that players have high / maxed out hull capacity from endeavors, it's very likely to one shot many player ships as well as the evacuating ships even on normal difficulty especially if they have no idea of this new effect and its mechanics.
- Not everyone knows about the mechanics work; people will be wondering why they are still getting hit by the effect despite evading its detonation, as suppose to: knowing that you must be at least 5km away from the sphere before the sphere reaches 0hp, you can't evade it if you don't.
- Bad spawn location of sphere leads to sphere already being close to evacuating ships, possibly leading to dilemma situations that can be seen in the 2nd and 8th part of the video above; if you don't shoot the sphere, it's going to keep shooting the evacuating ship and destroy it. If you shoot the sphere, it's going to detonate and heavily damage or outright destroy the evacuating ship.
- Players are usually going to mindlessly shoot stuff, bad spawn location of spheres being too close to the evacuating ships leads to constant unintentional sphere detonations to the evacuating ships, and thus evacuating ships likely getting destroyed. Mindless shooting and auto firing of stuff, unless you know the spawn points, also leads to unintentional kill of spheres that spawns right on top of you and thus, getting affected by detonation.
There is an idea that the current way the sphere detonation works is "intended" to make the borg enemy generally more difficult. I don't have anything against that, the addition of borg spheres being able to detonate is nice. However, with the information and points made above, it's clear that there are plenty of unintended issues and the addition was badly implemented, probably due to:
- adding of detonation ability to sphere and proceeding to copy paste the enemy spawn positions and just swapping the enemies in the queue, with little regards to how the said enemies with new detonation ability and exact same positions will affect trying to defend the evacuating ships.
- continuing to use the scan on activation mechanic in this scenario which is not appropriate instead of making it scan on hit because the mechanic already exist to be copy pasted, with little regard to how it will affect its gameplay.
- needing to play the event TFO likely just once (with no option but to pick normal difficulty), before you figure out that the damage done by the detonation is too high (probably after dying from full health), and fixing it before releasing it that way, or at least making it aware to players that the issue is currently present, such is not the case probably due to a lack of testing.
Things that needs to be change from this issues should be straight forward. If you (developers) do make the mechanic "scan on hit" (which is already found on previous abilities as I have pointed out in the previous maelstrom thread and comments mentioned above), please do also apply it to the maelstrom torpedo's double damage conditions.
Note: This post is made mainly for developer awareness of the issue, with already sufficient relevant information. You can add more information and discuss in comments below but I will not be replying to any of them below unless critical.
The "scan on activation instead of scan on hit" issue affects the way the new spheres apply their "detonate" ability. The "scan on activation instead of scan on hit" issue was already an issue that I have voiced and explained earlier in detail that can be seen in my last 3 comments of this thread: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/13750442. It is to be noted that the issue is still present on the maelstrom torpedo and still decently reducing its overall effectiveness.
Briefly explained how it works, some abilities in this game have a "delay" when that ability has been "clicked" before the effect / condition of that ability actually "happens". Usually in the form of things like a time delay before the ability actually activates after clicking, or very commonly, the ability is projectile based, and has a travel time before it hits and applies it's effect. This means that it's usually better / more appropriate to have that effect / condition apply when the ability has actually happened, not when the ability has been "clicked", hence, scan (the effect / condition happening) on hit, rather than scan on activation (when you "click").
For example, for the maelstrom, the condition to get double damage, when say for using it against a battleship, is scanned on activation rather than on hit. Which means (also can be seen in the videos in those last 3 comments in that maelstrom thread), you can fire the maelstrom against a battleship, and can apply a shield offline (either by means of shooting it or with other effects) to the battleship relevant shield facing before the torpedo hits because it's still traveling, and the torpedo hits with the shield facing at zero, and it won't trigger the double damage. Because the condition for double damage was taken when you "clicked" on the maelstrom while the battleship had its shield facing up, essentially "securing" its reduced damage, even though the end result was that the maelstrom hit the battleship with its shield facing down.
For the new sphere "detonote" ability, it applies similarly. If you kill one of the new spheres while under 5km range, right at that moment it has "secured" damaging you with the detonate ability because of it's "scan on activation". Which means even if you tried to run far away after that it will still hit you. This is why people are wondering why they are still getting hit by the detonate even if they're far away.
Here is a video with many parts to showcase many details and issues with the sphere "detonate" ability:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hfE2Y9umhU4MFza5QPrHo4_4qmvjynqw/view?usp=sharing (video in 4k, needs download for sharper viewing)
First part of the video shows the range of the sphere detonating effect; detonation destroying 2 probe and heavily damaging self while the evacuating ship is not hit, range is likely to be 5km.
2nd part of the video show casing that the sphere detonating can damage and destroy evacuating ships if within range.
3rd part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; activating untargettable before destroying sphere while remaining within detonation range does not give self the explosion hit (activating temporal surge before sphere reached 0hp) (detonation did happen as can be seen from the animation as well as the probe being affected by it and getting destroyed).
4th part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; activating untargettable after destroying sphere while remaining within detonation range does give self the explosion hit (activating temporal surge after sphere reached 0hp).
5th and 6th part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; futile attempts to evade the detonation after sphere "secures" detonation hit to player if killed while in range.
7th part of the video showcasing scan on activation mechanic; since it only scans on activation, if sphere was killed outside detonation range, it will not damage you even if you move within range afterwards.
8th part of the video showcasing one of the badly positioned spawn point of the sphere; too close to the evacuation route.
9th part of the video showcasing same cruiser/frigate spawn point on defense of starbase one TFO, likely implying the new TFO enemy spawn points was copy-pasted.
Theres also the issue with scaling. On normal difficulty (only choice atm) it does, as seen in the video above, like around 85k damage. That is very high for normal difficulty, enough to one shot many players especially if they don't have hull capacity from endeavors. I went to look on elite difficulty if it really would hit for something like 300-500k but unfortunately on the campaign mission, the detonate effect does not occur from the spheres in that mission, only occurs in the 2 new TFOs, of which only the normal difficulty is present.
With all the information above, these are the issues the sphere detonation presents currently:
- There will be people just wondering why are they getting massive damage out of no where / lack of awareness of why they are getting hit, and also lack of awareness of why the evacuating ships are getting blown up even though people are shooting down the enemy.
- The damage of the sphere detonation is too high; this effect is in my opinion currently too punishing, given the HP of most ships and a much less likeliness that players have high / maxed out hull capacity from endeavors, it's very likely to one shot many player ships as well as the evacuating ships even on normal difficulty especially if they have no idea of this new effect and its mechanics.
- Not everyone knows about the mechanics work; people will be wondering why they are still getting hit by the effect despite evading its detonation, as suppose to: knowing that you must be at least 5km away from the sphere before the sphere reaches 0hp, you can't evade it if you don't.
- Bad spawn location of sphere leads to sphere already being close to evacuating ships, possibly leading to dilemma situations that can be seen in the 2nd and 8th part of the video above; if you don't shoot the sphere, it's going to keep shooting the evacuating ship and destroy it. If you shoot the sphere, it's going to detonate and heavily damage or outright destroy the evacuating ship.
- Players are usually going to mindlessly shoot stuff, bad spawn location of spheres being too close to the evacuating ships leads to constant unintentional sphere detonations to the evacuating ships, and thus evacuating ships likely getting destroyed. Mindless shooting and auto firing of stuff, unless you know the spawn points, also leads to unintentional kill of spheres that spawns right on top of you and thus, getting affected by detonation.
There is an idea that the current way the sphere detonation works is "intended" to make the borg enemy generally more difficult. I don't have anything against that, the addition of borg spheres being able to detonate is nice. However, with the information and points made above, it's clear that there are plenty of unintended issues and the addition was badly implemented, probably due to:
- adding of detonation ability to sphere and proceeding to copy paste the enemy spawn positions and just swapping the enemies in the queue, with little regards to how the said enemies with new detonation ability and exact same positions will affect trying to defend the evacuating ships.
- continuing to use the scan on activation mechanic in this scenario which is not appropriate instead of making it scan on hit because the mechanic already exist to be copy pasted, with little regard to how it will affect its gameplay.
- needing to play the event TFO likely just once (with no option but to pick normal difficulty), before you figure out that the damage done by the detonation is too high (probably after dying from full health), and fixing it before releasing it that way, or at least making it aware to players that the issue is currently present, such is not the case probably due to a lack of testing.
Things that needs to be change from this issues should be straight forward. If you (developers) do make the mechanic "scan on hit" (which is already found on previous abilities as I have pointed out in the previous maelstrom thread and comments mentioned above), please do also apply it to the maelstrom torpedo's double damage conditions.
Note: This post is made mainly for developer awareness of the issue, with already sufficient relevant information. You can add more information and discuss in comments below but I will not be replying to any of them below unless critical.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments
Torpedoes usually seem to hit the enemy depending on where your ship is at the moment of impact - instead of from which direction it actually came. (Example: firing a torp at an unshielded rear and then moving your ship to the shielded front, the torpedo will hit the rear shield.)
Borg who try to assimilate seem to do the same thing: they intend to assimilate you, you move back, you're still hit by nanotubes that will simply protrude a couple of additional metres.
The game has a tendency to determine hits and impacts based on where you were when the ability was activated, not what happened in the meantime. And yes, shockwaves of exploding Borg spheres are also hitting you if you were within 5km when it exploded, even if you are at, say, 7km by the time the wave has reached the 5km mark.
That's not how things should work. As it simply means that there's no point in actually responding to what happens on the screen. But responding to what happens on the screen is the basic idea behind interactive media like games and therefore such behaviour ought to be rewarded - not punished with death.
It may be inconvenient, but that's actually a great way of encouraging tactical thinking. It helps ensuring that just spamming spacebar isn't automatically the best solution, as checking one's fire is now required.
One thing I've noticed is that the Borg tend to target players more instead of the evacuation ships. In DoSB1, they generally focus on the evacuation ships, even with players with high threat generation around. But in the new mission, the evacuation ships aren't their main target most of the time.
So just ignoring that one sphere (it's usually one spawning close to the first part of the evacuation route, and then another one further down the lane) can work just fine most of the time. And if not, there's disables, drains, push abilities and so on to neutralise the threat without causing explosions. Or the good old gravity well - but again, it requires awareness of the user where and when to use it. But encouraging such awareness is, if you ask me, a good thing.
As for the subject about Detonate being too punishing.. I'm on the fence about it. It's certainly a big hit for Normal - I've seen the NPC ships get exploded several times on Resistance of SB1. I think I'd personally rather see the Normal damage lowered to around 50k(100k Advanced; 200k Elite) and, more importantly, better feedback be given in regards to the blast radius of the impending explosion(and/or see a radius reduction to 3km instead of 5km). The spheres light up well enough to indicate that it's about to explode, but it doesn't properly convey the size of the explosion - which is further compounded by the 'tagged for damage' issue that's being brought up. It's surprisingly easy to get clipped by multiple detonates without realizing it/proper visual warning.
I don't think they had that after the first release, but now they certainly do.
If by release you mean since they made the latest Borg revamp then yes, it happened then. The first day the current event started I thought someone was pushing around Spheres with that pressor-beam experimental weapon from the Temer, but it was the spheres making those rapid dashes by the themselves.
It can be a pain in the aft-quarters since you can be out of the Detonate ability range one second and then the sphere can jump right up in your face.
Not happy about the changes overall.
So let me get this straight......
You're fine being able to vape dozens of ships a second, literally one shotting left right and centre......
But NPC's are not allowed to vape you!?
Do what I did.....ADAPT!
I haven't found anything that I use impossible to use against the Spheres bar subnuke, however, why should Cryptic conform NPC's to be easy to vape?
P.S. also thank you, BMR, for your comment back in the previous xgamerfreakz post. As you can see, some people don't recognise you as an admin only, but take you for a person of some authority in the game and think your one-liner comments are valid.
Another example is drain builds. Charged particle bursts and some drain consoles like those from the Nebula, Alita and Vesta lines don't work at more than 5km or even 3km range.
One thing that's usually forgotten in these lines of reasoning: we already face large numbers of NPC's precisely because we have a lot of tools at our disposal. Those large numbers are in part compensation for the fact that players can use a lot of stuff and build a powerful ship.
Making many of those tools ineffective, giving NPC's lots of counters and special, heavy hitting attacks AND keeping the number of enemies the same isn't the best way of presenting players with a challenge.
Either give enemies some interesting attacks and reduce their numbers - or keep them simple and their numbers high. High numbers of heavy hitting and trics pulling enemies isn't the right way to do things.
It's basically the same with entire groups of Subnuc-spamming Hirogen or entire groups of invulnerable, heavy hitting and player ability disabling Na'kuhl. I think it's safe to say that those enemies and the content they're found in aren't considered very enjoyable either.
It's fine if enemies have some special abilities and even render some player abilities useless, but then their numbers need to be reduced accordingly. Cause giving them special abilities has removed the justification of there being large numbers of NPC's.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I have to disagree with you on this. Folk are asking for harder content, even if it's at normal difficulty. My post was heavily dosed with sarcasm, but it intentionally hits the point perfectly. I don't want new enemies that can be nuked with the same-old, same-old. The Spheres just need more situational awareness and folk won't get 'one-shotted' by them....aside from also making sure you have some armour equipped. I can take hits from 2 exploding spheres at one time, but I ain't going to complain if I get taken out by them.
I'm just astounded that some folk won't adapt (pun intended) and are asking for a nerf to something that actually is a threat for a change.
The Spheres are also the best anti-afk'ing device they've brought out in a while too
Well, on that last line we can certainly agree lol.
The detonation is now scan on hit as supposed to scan on activation as explained in the initial post; you now take damage when the sphere has actually detonated as supposed to securing the damage to players if killed while within 5km. Additional changes also seems that now it takes a whole 6ish seconds from the time the sphere reaches 0hp to explode and damage you, where else before it was 2-3ish seconds from when it reaches 0hp to damage you with detonation.
While the other factors like its very high damage (still doing 80k hits) or spawn points has remain unchanged, the changes made has made the detonation ability both easy to dodge, as well as visually intuitive and predictable now, and thus makes the stated issues mostly acceptable now.
Unfortunately the maelstrom torpedo itself still has its double damage conditions remain in a scan on activation state as tested post patch, nevertheless issues pertaining specifically from borg sphere detonations has mostly been resolved.