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Obliviating dual beam banks: what's the point?
fleetcaptain5
Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
So we have these new lockbox weapons, which come in the following forms:
Dual beam banks, omni-beams, single beams (and ground weapons).
Now here's my question: what's the point of having dual beam banks if you cannot get some turrets of the same type to fill your ship's aft slots?
I feel like this is a huge oversight.
Dual beam banks, omni-beams, single beams (and ground weapons).
Now here's my question: what's the point of having dual beam banks if you cannot get some turrets of the same type to fill your ship's aft slots?
I feel like this is a huge oversight.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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An omni-beam and, for example, the gamma rep torpedo for its set bonus can work just fine if you have only two aft slots. With any cruiser or most sci ships (or indeed - most ships in general) you're going to have spare slots in the aft though.
And yes, single beams could be put there and that might seem like a well thought-out build to whoever came up with the build for the original Dyson for example - but for most players this just doesn't make much sense to do.
The dual beams (which drop the most from the box too I believe) also have this weird tendency to only shoot from the center of the saucer of an assault cruiser, which looks a bit strange imo. But that's a more personal matter I guess.
Just saying: this lockbox feels a bit rushed. Others have pointed out that stuff that's regularly included wasn't this time. That's not so much of an issue imo, as there are also some other things in it that aren't normally included either, like those Boffs.
Putting only three types of weapons in a box and leaving out the stuff that's supposed to complement one of the types though? That does give off the impression that they simply forgot or ran out of time to design and add like half the stuff.
An impression that's only reinforced by those Boffs not being customisable in the slightest and the ground weapon mechanics either not working the way they should or just being awfully designed. Although those are different issues, together they do make me think that maybe they just should have taken a few more weeks before releasing this box.
If your in a 4/4 ship. Yes dual beams are probably sub optimal that isn't anything new... those ships tend to lack the turn rate for 90 degree arc weapons anyway.
True, but some people do fly what you call fat cruisers. Seems kind of odd to design a weapon that's useless on like half the ships. Cause they can definitely work and for some players flying in circles and only broadsiding just becomes boring after a while.
As for the two omni beams in the rear: that can work indeed, but then you're still going to have to use regular phasers for that second beam. Which certainly is an option, but then one might as well use regular phaser turrets.
Neither solution solves the issue that you can't do a full Obliviating phaser build if you wish to use anything else than beams - and fill up all slots with weapons that will actually fire when using those DBB's.
Quite ironic, isn't it?
But anyway, like I said: I don't really mind that much personally anymore. It's not like I have to derive my income from these things. If Cryptic wishes to release some half-baked product, they of course have the right to do so.
All that junk being thrown out there, there are some very viable DBB builds ingame which perform very well. So who am I to complain about how other people play this game? No One.
Your talking as if you can put a full set of ANY weapon on while using omnis. The same is true for all omnis. One set one crafted/lockbox has been the rule since the beginning. There is no weapon type where you can slot exactly matching omnis.
Also there are advantages to flying smaller faster ships. There was a time when Cryptic didn't allow Dual heavy cannons on any non escort class ship. Dual beam banks where the beam option for escorts. Frankly the biggest mistake Cryptic ever made balance wise was creating omni beam arrays at all. BUT they love selling people the constitution over and over and over and over.
Please read my opening post again. I was asking why Cryptic decided to release Dual beam banks - and not release the weapon type (turrets) that could be used to complement these. I'm not arguing that more omni-beams than two should be possible or anything like that.
Turrets have been included in all boxes that had dual beam banks, as far as I know. In fact, before writing this post I checked https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Infinity_Prize_Pack:_Weapon_Pack
The ten or so most recent boxes (the ones I just checked) all had many more weapon choices and could indeed use full sets of the same weapon type.
This box doesn't have most weapon types. Which, again, I'm totally fine with now. But please don't pretend like I'm asking for any deviation from rules or requesting more omni-beams - I'm merely pointing out now that many options that were more or less always present, now aren't. Just like I'm pointing out that weapon type A is present, while type B that complements that type well, isn't.
That is all. Everyone likes flying different ships and using different weapons. That's why I don't see the point of releasing only two or three weapon types - and why, besides other reasons, this more or less feels like a half-baked release.
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Why do you have an idea that dual beam banks and turrets go together ?
You are talking about beams and cannons. Turrets and Dual beams are not in general paired they are completely different types of weapons. Omni beams I mention as they are actually beams... like dual beam banks.
Yes they didn't for some reason add any cannon weaponry to the digitizer box. I have no idea what the thinking is there other then laziness. Turrets go with Single/Dual/Dual heavy cannons.
I mean your free to put turrets on the back of a beam build... its not ideal but your free to do as you wish of course. I agree with you Cryptic should have added all 4 cannon varieties to the choice box as well. It seems like lately they have released a few things where they have been too lazy to fully add options. We got a lockbox weapon pack with ZERO space options not long ago.
Why do you have the idea they do not?
To quote one of my favorite weeklies, "Inquiring minds want to know!"
Yeah, I found this detail pretty disappointing, was expecting something new based on the way the systems dev was describing them during the livestream.
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I think its because unless you're using a specific trait, Beams and Cannons ideally shouldn't mix because Beam abilities don't augment Cannons, and vice versa. Its more for ability synergy really.
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Mixing energy weapon types can also work with specialist firing modes (such as Surgical Strikes and Exceed Rated Limits). Not every ship can use those though.
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'Beams and cannons shouldn't mix?'
Where did this wisdom come from?
Once you get enough cooldown reducers (or, nowadays, the Boimler trait) there really is no need to have more than 1 copy of each ability.
Which means that on most ships (any ship with more than 3 or 4 tac slots, basically) you might as well add a scatter volley for those turrets while using overload or FAW for your DBB's.
At some point there's just not anything else to add except mine or torpedo abilities for instance, but those also take up a slot and will boost even fewer weapons.
So if it's a bad idea to mix dual beams with turrets because you cannot boost the turrets as well (which, as indicated, is only limitedly true), then it's an even worse idea to use torpedoes - might as well say then that it's a bad idea to mix anything, including 'canon' builds with something like 7 beams and a photon torpedo.
Personally I don't really enjoy flying with single beams only across 30 or so toons though, at some point you want to do different things on different toons - and honestly, that's why I (and I'm sure many others) have been mixing these types for years.
Truth is, it doesn't matter what you put on your ship. The best tactical consoles aren't cannon or beam consoles, they're related to the energy type so in that sense it hardly matters what weapon type (cannon, beam, dual beam etc.) you are boosting.
As long as it makes sense targeting arc-wise (or because you want a set bonus, in some cases). Because it's always a better idea to boost a weapon that actually fires, than boosting one that doesn't fire, right? And that's why it makes perfect sense to me to fill up the aft slots with turrets when using DBB's in the front.
Honestly, I am surprised that people truly think that combining dual beams with turrets is a no-go. Think outside the box a bit. Yes, pun intended and I'll take your advice on trying pulse phasers.
Far as I am aware, common knowledge rule of thumb in game is you don't mix damage types (like phasers and disruptors), and you try not to mix beams and cannons if you can help it.
There are ways to make them work however. Except for mixed damage builds. Those generally don't work as well as you can't maximize the damage potential like you can with only using one damage type.
I always try and have a torpedo myself because having that extra versatility and ability to slap things with kinetic (ESPECIALLY anything that absorbs energy) is useful. And mostly because it just doesn't feel right to go full beam boat on something that also has torpedo launchers.
And you're welcome with the pulse phasers.
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Well the game has lots of traits and the like that can make mixing useful. It is still never optimal. Your right I shouldn't say you should never mix... but really its never going to be optimal. Slotting beam overload 3 and Cannon scatter volley 1 with turrets might be nice I guess for clearing NPC destructible torps for endeavors.
As for torps and why to mix them in... well your right you wouldn't not want to put them in the back torps in the back are always silly. But running a torp so you can slot a trait like Piercing projectiles is a pretty massive dmg buff to your energy weapons. (not to mention that with that trait and a few other bits of gear your energy weapons will basically ignore 50% or more of shields) There was a time when yes the standard advice with torps was don't mix them with your energy weapons... run ALL torps or ALL Cannon or ALL beam. Even now the builds I use piercing torp on and slot one torp... the torp does almost Zero dmg as nothing ever lives long enough to get hit by one when I fire them. (The only reason to slot the torp really is the trait has a 15s uptime and if you don't slot a torp to clear the buff you can't hit HY/spread1 again to proc the trait for 30s) Having said that... one mine in the back and a dispersal pattern also works to proc the PP trait.
Anyway no matter what... even counting all weapon buffs like Surgical strikes. In general mixing cannons and beams is a DPS loss. Not saying its not effective, lets all be honest this game is not hard even on Elite decent but sub optimal still completes the content just fine. One of the main issues with mixing IMHO is just all the firing cycle issues you run into. With the speed at which a decent build is retargeting, having half your weapons still cycling is just annoying.
I agree, though the devs have said in the past that it would be difficult to do this due to needing to somehow deal with existing Boffs that have CRF3 and CSV3 in the commander slot. I personally think it's a pretty easy problem to solve: rename the existing CRF3 and CSV3 to CRF4 and CSV4, buff their damage accordingly (or give them some other benefit if you want to avoid power creep), and create "new" versions of CRF3 and CSV3 at LtCom with the current numbers (and also create BO4 and BFAW4 to give beams commander level abilities too).
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But they still do more damage than turrets, add in the lower tier boff seating...it wont destroy any meters but it definitely would be a lot more effective than running a turret ship
Actually they don't.
Beam buffs start a shared cooldown on other beam buffs and on specialist firing modes (those affect both cannons and beams. eg surgical strike)
Cannon buffs start a shared cooldown on other cannon buffs and on specialist firing modes.
Specialist fireing-modes start a shared cooldown on Beam-buffs, cannon-buffs and other specialist firing modes.
Nope. I do mix an match a few ships of mine no issues. My defiant has 2x beams 2x cannons 1x torp front 2 turrets back and 1 omni. I use scatter volley and bo III I have had other ships where I did fire at will and csv. The only reason why most people don't do that is DPS. I do it because its more fun that way.
and there are better abilities to slot than CSV for your single turret, stuff like distributed targeting, kemocite laced weaponry, or torp spreads are a much more impactful use of your slot
Only time your gonna want CSV and FAW is entwined tactical matrices/mixed armaments synergy builds.
Same goes for ship tanking/defense, Colony Consoles with Hull Image Refractors with Rapid Fire + Beam Overload or Scatter Volley + Fire at Will is 100% more effective then only Cannons or only Beam powers. Mixing augments the amount of damage one can tank in this case. Currently I am playing my carrier like this where my damage and tank is benefiting from the mix of canon and beam powers.
Thing is you can run the buff skills to proc specific traits without actually having the weapons. (with the acceptation of torps and mines... well you can but it messes with uptime cause the buff will last for 30s and the traits will drop off in 15)
I mean something like preferential targeting + colony procs. You don't actually have to slot any beams as an example to proc that trait and those heals with a fire at will 1 if your running cannon RF/SV 3. Likewise if your running overload 3... you don't HAVE to have a cannon on to slot scatter 1 to proc traits and heals. Your still going to get more dmg out of putting an omni in the back buff by Overload 3 then a turret firing scatter volley 1. I mean PvP build wise sure its popular to run scatter 1 and overload 3... but no one actually slots a anything but beams. You get the trait dmg and colony consoles buffs no matter if your actually firing cannons, those things proc when you activate the skill.
I know I'm talking about DPS chasing, I get it some folks just wanna slot it all and run missions. As I said earlier STO isn't hard not everything has to be setup perfectly optimal. Having said that I would say mixing is still in general anyway a DPS loss. Sure we have mixed arm on MW ships and a few traits that do make it make sense to slot one torp or one mine... but in almost all cases DPS goes up when you fire all your weapons with the highest buff class you can run. And yes its not impossible to come up with a ship and build capable of slotting a Canon level 3 with a beam level 3... but then you are probably choosing to not run something like Omega or a higher level of beta or kemo ect. (or your using a universal lt cmd seat that could instead be slotting some sci stuff or higher level engi buffs like emergency power to weapons 3 ect)
Last thing on the topic... IF you really want turrets in the back of a 3-4 slot rear cruiser and your using higher beam buffs like overload 3. At least put a turret back there that is providing you overall DPS. The Undine heavy turret 2pc set bonus is 7.5% cat2 bouns dmg for phaser/disruptor/plasma. You could argue that is an overall dps increase over an omni beam. You can also slot the Gamma heavy turret for the extra debuff, as most things you shot will be slower then you. (although the gamma weapon also comes in beam form) If you wanted me to spit ball an effective 4/4 weapon setup all forward assuming you can slot any traits and the ship has at least a lt cmd tac and a lt tac/universal... overload 3 for dmg, 2 omnis in the rear +undine heavy turret +one mine. Overload 3/CSV1/Mine disperal 1. Undine turret isn't going to do much dps on its own but it would buff your other weapons 7.5% cat 2 (which for most peoples build is 1.5 or so tac consoles of dmg)... the mine is just their to clear the dispersal pattern so you can use it a cool down and proc Piercing Projectile trait (which gives you 200 hull and shield pen for all weapons)
I've never been impressed with distributed targeting.
Generally speaking, I use tac team, scatter volley, overload (also these two to trigger preferential targeting), KLW and torpedo spread.
That scatter volley doesn't come instead of torp spread or KLW, it's generally used alongside them.
Besides, I seriously doubt whether it makes much more sense to spend a boff slot on upgrading a single torpedo - or that same boff slot to buff two or three turrets. That torpedo, even with HY or Spread isn't going to do much unless you also buff that in other ways, those turrets are already buffed by your energy consoles if they're the same type as your DBB's.
So even if putting scatter volley on my ship meant that I'd have to forego using a torpedo spread, that seems a reasonable sacrifice.
I could be wrong, I don't care for parsing and DPS meters. But common sense tells me that using a Boff ability that boosts two or three weapons that are already more powerful thanks to related tac consoles being present on my ship, isn't necessarily a bad idea.
Not when the alternative is boosting a single weapon that will also fire less often, has to travel to an enemy that might be dead before it hits and isn't boosted by anything else (or by fewer things).