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Now that Starfleet has Commodores again... will you change it?
captainrc1
Member Posts: 95 Arc User
Now that, according to Star Trek Picard, one pip Admirals are actually called "Commodore" again, will there be a change made to call captains of said rank "Commodore" rather than "Rear Admiral Lower Half"? If so, you'll probably have to find a clip of Spock saying "Commodore" in the Original Series and splice it in the sound file.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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As STO starts about 9 years after Picard; like what happened in the post TOS TMP era (which was 10 years later), it's probably fallen out of favor again by 2409.
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On the lower end they already established that there is a rank for captains commanding a fleet (Fleet Captain) which presumably can override seniority considerations yet not be a flag rank. And at the upper end, they generally called the flag officers in charge of Starbases Admiral in the later shows instead of Commodore.
Even if they changed it, you'll only hold that rank for 5 levels or so.
Personally, if they decide to change anything, I'd prefer they make changes so that the game recognises a rank of your own choosing. Most of my characters are captains, I'd like to see them being adressed and treated as such.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
It is a question of lore really.
In day-to-day mechanics of the game it is just a number and does not matter as much, but to those who approach the game from an RP standpoint it effects the flavor of the game to some degree so it can be a sore point, the current situation (like other discontinuities) is a bit like a minor but annoying itch. It is easy enough to live with, but it would be nice if they would resolve the issue, especially for more TOS-oriented players.
Traditionally, "commodore" is the title for any officer assigned to command more than one ship, even temporarily, much as "captain" is the traditional title for the commanding officer of a single ship even if the officer's official title in the service is a lower rank.
So, more of a 'first among equals' title than rank where the formal position has fallen out of use, but still useful so that there is no confusion when the 'commander' amongst a group of Captains needs to be clearly identified for organisational purposes, in combat and so on.
It was all political, though and the term was discarded, partly because the submarine service and air service did not use the term as much and the promotion path was different. If you wanted a star, you commanded an SSBN or carrier air wing then carrier. Anyway, the politics discarded, the rank became RA(LH), and the title remained unofficially for squadron command.
It won't break the game.
Like I said before Lower Rear Admiral isn't the same rank as Commodore in Star Trek, Commodore is just below Rear Admiral and by Rear Admiral it means both the Upper and Lower halves, Commodore is just the Rank just below Lower Rear Admiral.
I like the idea that 'commodores' are in command of star bases as I remember most of the TOS characters with that rank were star base commanders.
What makes you think they were not the same? When Commodore was in use (in TOS mainly) Rear Admiral was a single rank, not two ranks (Upper and Lower) and Commodore was the lowest flag rank. When they stopped using Commodore, then Rear Admiral was split into two ranks (RALH and RAUH) and the new lower Rear Admiral rank became the lowest flag rank.
Are you maybe thinking of Fleet Captain? That one is rather slippery and is usually (but not always) used as the highest non-flag rank. In essence it seems to be both a captain with a sort of boosted seniority that overrides the usual time-in-grade considerations, and sometimes as a detached captain in charge of a number of vessels (like the defense flotilla of a Starbase or an academy "fleet" without being an actual flag officer, where the flotilla is attached to a base often under the command of a Commodore or Rear Admiral.
It means they'd need to record a new voice line for it, which is a pointless hassle that many wont even notice
The people behind NuTrek don't even understand how military and the chain of command even work, that commodore was changed in TNG to reflect the real navy change. They probably heard/saw the rank in TOS and just went with it instead of doing any research at all on it...probably not even aware that it was changed to RALH in TNG and beyond
In TOS, the Federation was at war with the Klingons. So during that period, use of Commodore made sense. In the TNG era, there was no actual war until the Dominion invaded.
In Season One of Picard, the rank is used again. This means that a state of war existed, though with whom was not mentioned. It couldn't have been the Romulans, as the joint research project with the Artifact would not have been going on.
It could also have been a temporary experament on the part of the administration at the time that was discontinued prior to the start of STO's run.
Nevertheless, going off my dad's explanation, Commodore is supposed to be a war-time rank.
Years ago, back when TNG was airing, I remember seeing in a sci fi magazine a listing of 24th-century Starfleet ranks. Commodore was listed as hypothetical, but it had five solid pips.
Yes, that is more or less the modern naval definition of Commodore (which is still in quite a bit of flux), but Roddenberry (according to things he said, and a few said by others in the original production) created Star Trek with a weird mix of Victorian sailing ship navy and WWII practices. That complicates an already complex and sometimes inconsistent situation.
Originally, in fact, it was closer to the Victorian model, you can see that at work in The Cage where there were no ranks between Lieutenant and Captain, which matched the situation in the Victorian novels (like the Hornblower novels, in fact Pike is heavily based on the Hornblower character).
Also, they are not "just a wartime rank" like 20th century practice unless that war was something they never showed anything about. The Federation was not at war with the Klingons during TOS except for a few days as shown in Errand of Mercy, the rest of the time it was a pretty standard "cold war" rivalry with a few isolated clashes, diplomatic incidents. and an occasional proxy war instead of direct, declared war. Technically, it was peacetime as they were not at war with either of the other two major powers of the time, the Klingons and the Romulans.
What they have shown onscreen in TOS is actually three rank titles that all apply to almost (but not quite) the same thing, which are two different Commodore types and one called "Fleet Captain".
> Yes, that is more or less the modern naval definition of Commodore (which is still in quite a bit of flux), but Roddenberry (according to things he said, and a few said by others in the original production) created Star Trek with a weird mix of Victorian sailing ship navy and WWII practices. That complicates an already complex and sometimes inconsistent situation.
>
> Originally, in fact, it was closer to the Victorian model, you can see that at work in The Cage where there were no ranks between Lieutenant and Captain, which matched the situation in the Victorian novels (like the Hornblower novels, in fact Pike is heavily based on the Hornblower character).
>
> Also, they are not "just a wartime rank" like 20th century practice unless that war was something they never showed anything about. The Federation was not at war with the Klingons during TOS except for a few days as shown in Errand of Mercy, the rest of the time it was a pretty standard "cold war" rivalry with a few isolated clashes, diplomatic incidents. and an occasional proxy war instead of direct, declared war. Technically, it was peacetime as they were not at war with either of the other two major powers of the time, the Klingons and the Romulans.
>
> What they have shown onscreen in TOS is actually three rank titles that all apply to almost (but not quite) the same thing, which are two different Commodore types and one called "Fleet Captain".* Fleet Captain is apparently some kind of brevet rank where an ordinary captain is temporarily promoted to command a fleet in wartime without the actual rank change or pay of a higher rank but which sticks as a courtesy title after they return to their regular rank duties (Fleet Captain Garth). Alternatively, they can be in charge of a pool of ships (like the Academy training vessels) without having active command of any one particular ship from that pool (Fleet Captain Pike).
> * Next step is a field Commodore (like Commodore Matt Decker). It is apparently a formal, permanent rank with a different insignia than what Captains have (the "Starflower Petal" instead of the active-ship-service Delta, and a different type of cuff ring pattern based on that used by Admirals) though it is unclear whether it is considered a flag rank or not (Decker functioned as the Constellation's Captain in addition to whatever other duties he had as Commodore).
> * A sort of full Commodore (like Commodore Wesley) that is definitely a flag rank, (in one episode there is reference to a Commodore's flag, and it is consistent with 17th/18th century practices). This type has the full HQ Command Starflower insignia and the same two braided and one plain solid rank rings as the field Commodore, but usually seems to be assigned a starbase or similar facility rather than direct command of a ship. Some of this type are not line officers at all, and are from medical or other service divisions or administrators who have never had a line command (like Commodore Stocker).
I was writing a fan fiction set in an alternative TNG era story that begins in the Episode Q-pid, where Picard actually tells Q that his constructive deed could be making it so that the Borg Collective never existed. Q obliges, and as a result, an altered present finds the Federation at war with a race of conquerors from the Delta Quadrant that, had the Borg Collective existed, would have been assimilated before their conquest would have expanded beyond their local star cluster.
Anyway, Starfleet in that head canon is more militaristic, with certain postings that are more vital to defending the Federation have an extended chain of command. The rank of Fleet Commander (3 solid pips and 1 hollow pip) exists between Commander and Captain, and Fleet Captain (four solid pips and 1 hollow pip) exists between Captain and Commodore (Five solid pips if assigned to command a starship. One pip with admiralty bars in dress uniform, or when commanding a ground post). The fleet commander, fleet captain and commodore are flag officer ranks. In my fic, Riker and Picard hold those ranks respectively, as they are CO and XO of the flagship. If a Commodore were to come on board, they'd have todefer to them, but without one, their role is no different than it would be ordinarily. I wanted to illustrate a Starfleet that is more military, with a few more rungs on the rank progression ladder.
I only finished the first chapter. It can be found on fanfiction.net under the title "The Greater of Two Evils"
Just thought I'd share that since as you say, rank designation throughout Star Trek history have been inconsistent.So if the showrunners can make stuff up, then I can too with my own headcanon for an alternate reality story, that just like official trek, gets restored to normal by the end.
Whilst this is off-topic....
Picard would be well aware of the possible outcomes of Q removing the Borg. He isn't that naive!
It's comparable to the humongous plot-hole and canon-altering of ST:Picard in letting Agnes-Borg fly off in the past.
> Whilst this is off-topic....
>
> Picard would be well aware of the possible outcomes of Q removing the Borg. He isn't that naive!
>
> It's comparable to the humongous plot-hole and canon-altering of ST:Picard in letting Agnes-Borg fly off in the past.
I know that. Its why I didn't continue writing it. It was merely a "what-if?" scenario I was bored enough at the time to mess around with. MI really only spoke about it here because it was an example of how an expanded rank progression might work in an alternate reality. I had put some thought into that when I was writing it. This thread made me think about it.
To get it back on track, after the Borg threat, and the Dominion War, it makes sense that the Federation would need to be on a more heightened state of alert. The Dominion War had a major impact on the entiure Federation. So many lives lost. The people at the top at the time of Season 1 of Picard would have been the people in the middle of the action during the war. That's bound to impact their decision concerning how to protect Federation interests. The reinstatement of Commodore as an active rank designation might have logically played into that. In the time between the events of Picard and STO, new leadership coming in might have relaxed things a bit, once again rendering Commodore a wartime rank.
I would have written that Wesley said it in a typical naive-smirking retort, with Q replying "Now that is an interesting idea my little child"
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