Please add shuttlebay to Starfleet Academy map

captainhunter1 · May 2022

The tutorial for new Starfleet characters has an awesome shuttlebay on top of the main building at Starfleet Academy. Could we please get this 'connected up' to the regular Academy map for player use?

Seems like it would be pretty easy to 'turn on' the door at the south end of the hallway inside the building (simply by adding a dialog box "Go to Shuttlebay" outside) - making it a turbolift to the Shuttlebay, just like it is in the tutorial.

To make the shuttlebay useful (not just cosmetic), have an option to travel to both ESD (ending up in the ESD shuttlebay - and visa versa if you take the shuttle from ESD) and to your ship in Earth orbit. This would add a bit of canon content for those Dr. McCoy types who hate using transporters.

A simple copy of the tutorial map would be super simple and work great, with only the addition of the shuttle destinations dialog box near the orbital shuttle guy needed.

In addition to the shuttlebay (and 'turbolift' access), a set of stairs could be placed along the empty wall just to the right of the door leading to the Commandant's Office. This would allow characters to explore and use the upper levels of the main Academy building. Additional doors could be added on the walls up there indicating more classrooms (or for future Foundry gateways - if it ever comes back). The geometry up there is fascinating and a few additional steps/stairs here and there on these levels would allow access throughout the entire upper works. I'd love to see a physical connection to the shuttlebay up there as well (as opposed to another 'loading screen' door), but am not sure that is possible without some major work (the door just to the left of the turbolift on the shuttlebay map could be made to open and close, leading to stairs that connect to the upper levels of the regular Academy map).

I hope the dev team considers doing at least the 'turbolift' (dialog trigger) door to the shuttlebay map addition. It's minimal work for a great addition to the Academy. The rest (like stairs) would be gravy for us after that.

spiritborn · May 2022

In regards the upper floor, assuming it exists and isn't just the landing bay you've mistaken for another floor, this depends very much on how the geometry is built, even if there are windows or even more that implies the there's something up there, those might just be set dressing and extend only as far as you can see them or a bit further so there's no clear edge to the geo.

If it's just set dressing as I suspect it would be a lot of work to add anything in there and unless that space would be used on a mission no real returns to justify the cost as 99% of the player base would most likely never visit those spaces.

Unknown · May 2022

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wolfswetpaws · May 2022

The Shuttle-Bay that I'm aware of is in Earth Spacedock, not the Starfleet Academy grounds.

spiritborn · May 2022

wolfswetpaws#2250 wrote: »

The Shuttle-Bay that I'm aware of is in Earth Spacedock, not the Starfleet Academy grounds.

there's a shuttle bay at top floor of the Starfleet Academy building that's used just for 1 scene in the tutorial.

wolfswetpaws · May 2022

I'm guessing it is merely "eye candy".

Unknown · May 2022

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spiritborn · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

wolfswetpaws#2250 wrote: »

I'm guessing it is merely "eye candy".

No... In the tutorial, you actually can take a turbolift at the end of the hall up to the shuttle platform on top of th main academy complex.

It has existed since the discovery era origin story was released, and was asked to be added to the actual academy map in the core game.

The excuse given for them not doing it contained a bunch of words that roughly translate to "It would be too much work."

It existed even before the DSC origin, the shuttlebay was used to get you to your ship in the tutorials where you start as a cadet.

That part was not really changed in the recent rewamp.

culexofborg · May 2022

The current social SFA map does NOT have anything up in the shuttle bay area. Not even a proper floor. Also, the shuttle pilots are drunk as hell and fly through walls and hills up there. Also, the new 25th century SFA during the tutorial is a woefully incomplete (including Disco designs and consoles) redressed version of the Discovery SFA map which was heavily modified (except for the commendant's office which is merely blocked off by shutters and a non-functioning door but remains completely 25th century in design and console images) for Discovery by people who knew what they were doing. IF Gearbox replaces the original social SFA map with the one from the tutorial then it WILL have a completed shuttlebay, however, significant work would still need to be done to fill out the map's geometry and likely have to completely redo many areas just out of view from ground level left over from the ancient old-Cryptic designed map. Not to mention fix all the old vs new vs discovery aesthetic and design clashing as well as crazy lighting and color bugs.

I don't see this happening as it will be inferior to the original map in use now on a consistency and technical level. Unless they just don't care anymore.

Another side effect though for the original SFA social map of the process from CrypticSFA to DiscoSFA to New TutorialSFA was the replacement of the "matte painting" in the far background likely relocated to the skybox instead of just far off.. It stays static no matter the height you are at on the map and because it was designed for Disco-Sunsetish lighting it clashes with the daytime setting as well as the lighting being way the hell too bright.

Too bad no one at Gearbox will take this seriously OR worse try and fix it by doing exactly what SHOULDN'T be done. All because the dil economy is still trash, I suspect.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

(Wall of text)

While I will not argue with many of the points that you bring up here, I believe your reasoning behind the whys and wherefores to be out of line.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

keepcalmchiveon wrote: »

so i ask...why is his reasoning of whys and wherefores out of line?

You honestly believe that this game company, ANY game company for that matter, does or does not do the things that it does or does not do, because it dislikes/hates its playerbase? That's got to be the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

keepcalmchiveon wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

keepcalmchiveon wrote: »

so i ask...why is his reasoning of whys and wherefores out of line?

You honestly believe that this game company, ANY game company for that matter, does or does not do the things that it does or does not do, because it dislikes/hates its playerbase? That's got to be the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

ok, ill play your way.

what have they done that shows they like/not hate its player base?

No. Sorry. I will not be baited into debating the validity of such an absurd statement. You're the ones making the statement. You defend it. But honestly, you can't, because you don't actually know what goes on within the confines of the Cryptic offices. All you can do is observe what occurs, and then, since you don't know the actual whys and wherefores and you're already predisposed to assume the worst, you do. Just because you and few other vocal forumites view things as such does not make it a reality, though.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

I do not feel like they HATE the player community. What they hate is when the player community throws ut actual logic to refute the excuses they make. We can call them out on the things that are glaringly obvious to be BS, and they do not own it. They double down on it and then blame us in some way for the root of the issue.

See, if they don't own the issues, they don't have to do the work required to properly address them. The problem is that the longer they go without owning the issues the more incompetent they look. With all the new official Star Trek material CBS has produced, STO should be enjoying a renaissance in terms of content and mechanics. But it isn't.

When was the last time they added a new mechanic to the core gameplay that they didn't turn around and neglect to the point where it became so problematic that they removed it, and then made the claim that we weren't interested enough in it to justify keeping it, nevermind that our lack of interest stemmed directly from their neglect? We tell them what's wrong. They ignore us. Things get worse, then they remove the impacted element and call it fixed.

When someone in one of their live streams expresses the opinion that Cryptic is TRIBBLE over new players, rather than ask what makes them feel that way, our community manager blames a third party for promoting hate. He still has not apologized for derailing a legitimate, all-be-it harsh expression of concern. He missed a great opportunity for a real community manager to step up and extend an olive branch and meet the community half-way. He failed!.

No. I do not think I am out of line. I'm just presenting a bitter pill to swallow. I am offering my perspective. If I am wrong, then Cryptic is welcome to change my perspective any time by doing the following:

Stop making stupid excuses for why the do things.
Own their issues and stop shifting blame onto the players
Do something about their human resource shortage

If they do that, my mind would be changed. Will they? No they won't. It's too much work.

I disagree with your assessment of "negligence and laziness." There could be many reasons behind the things that you say, things that we are not/cannot be privy to, but I do not believe them to be because of "negligence and laziness." And honestly, that's just insulting, considering how much work the devs do to make this game possible.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

You may disagree with my assessment all you want. But as I've said before, an old boss of mine was fond of saying "Perception is reality." I agree. My assessment is based on my perception, and as far as I am concerned, my perception is reality. Cryptic has not proven me wrong in a decade, so I do not expect them to do so now. It would be too much work. So the status quo will remain intact.

Well, of course, you would think that. Perception is merely a lens through which we view people, events, and things. We believe what we perceive to be accurate, and we create our own realities based on those perceptions. And although our perceptions feel very real, that doesn't mean they're necessarily factual.

You have a mental impression of something, and it defines how you see that something, regardless of the truth. So, while you believe this to be reality for you, it doesn't make it reality for anyone else, much less the truth. The problem that I have with your opinion about your reality is that you attempt to pass it off to others as factual truth, coloring others' perceptions to the point that you might influence their realities to bend into line with your own.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

keepcalmchiveon wrote: »

baited? i was looking for a discussion on merits of your post about dislike/hate. i didnt make the statement, another poster did, (or inferred based on your reply to them) but rather, i was inquiring about your post to them.

Fair enough. But he didn't say "dislike/hate", you did. He said, "negligence and laziness." And as I have tried to say, either way, that is a matter of perception and opinion that does not necessarily reflect actual reality and fact, that is, the truth. So, my apologies if I misinterpreted your meaning. Obviously, my perception of your statement did not reflect the reality of your intent.

Unknown · May 2022

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Unknown · May 2022

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sthe91 · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

sirsitsalot wrote: »

I do not feel like they HATE the player community. What they hate is when the player community throws ut actual logic to refute the excuses they make. We can call them out on the things that are glaringly obvious to be BS, and they do not own it. They double down on it and then blame us in some way for the root of the issue.

See, if they don't own the issues, they don't have to do the work required to properly address them. The problem is that the longer they go without owning the issues the more incompetent they look. With all the new official Star Trek material CBS has produced, STO should be enjoying a renaissance in terms of content and mechanics. But it isn't.

When was the last time they added a new mechanic to the core gameplay that they didn't turn around and neglect to the point where it became so problematic that they removed it, and then made the claim that we weren't interested enough in it to justify keeping it, nevermind that our lack of interest stemmed directly from their neglect? We tell them what's wrong. They ignore us. Things get worse, then they remove the impacted element and call it fixed.

When someone in one of their live streams expresses the opinion that Cryptic is TRIBBLE over new players, rather than ask what makes them feel that way, our community manager blames a third party for promoting hate. He still has not apologized for derailing a legitimate, all-be-it harsh expression of concern. He missed a great opportunity for a real community manager to step up and extend an olive branch and meet the community half-way. He failed!.

No. I do not think I am out of line. I'm just presenting a bitter pill to swallow. I am offering my perspective. If I am wrong, then Cryptic is welcome to change my perspective any time by doing the following:

Stop making stupid excuses for why the do things.
Own their issues and stop shifting blame onto the players
Do something about their human resource shortage

If they do that, my mind would be changed. Will they? No they won't. It's too much work.

I disagree with your assessment of "negligence and laziness." There could be many reasons behind the things that you say, things that we are not/cannot be privy to, but I do not believe them to be because of "negligence and laziness." And honestly, that's just insulting, considering how much work the devs do to make this game possible.

They made this game possible over a decade ago. I've been here from the day Jack Emmert stood on that stage and shared his grand vision of what STO was going to be. It was too grand a vision to be fully realized for both factions in just the 2 years Cryptic had to deliver a viable product. In its formative years, Cryptic was anything but lazy. And interestingly enough, before PWE bought them from Infogrames, they worked their butts off ADDING TO the game, even missing key team members who were cut loose when Infogrames stopped supporting them. We saw both the featured episode element and the Foundry introduced during that time. We also got the Duty Officer system.

But AFTER PWE assumed ownership, everything changed. Cryptic's attitude changed. It's like they got burned out and took the opportunity to just ride the status quo. Since PWE took over, more has been removed from the game than has been added, systemically speaking. That is the laziness I speak of. The neglect I speak of has to do with how they just stop working on aspects of the game and just let them fall into disarray. Take PvP for example. Its why the game has the whole 2-faction system hardcoded into it in such a way that adding a new third faction or merging the existing two into one cannot be achieved without a massive undertaking. And yet when was the last time PvP got any attention from Cryptic. Frankly, I personally detest PvP. But I also see it as a pillar of NNO gaming. But Cryptic seems to just see it as a piece of garbage, collecting dust and rotting in a shadowy corner. We don't get featured episode missions like we used to anymore... Too much work. We don't get faction-specific content... Too much work. We don't get new mechanics. Too much work. What we do get is the same stuff repackaged with each new TFO. And ships. Lots and lots of ships.

You may disagree with my assessment all you want. But as I've said before, an old boss of mine was fond of saying "Perception is reality." I agree. My assessment is based on my perception, and as far as I am concerned, my perception is reality. Cryptic has not proven me wrong in a decade, so I do not expect them to do so now. It would be too much work. So the status quo will remain intact.

-redacted-

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

What IS the truth? Do you know? Do any of us?

Only CRYPTIC knows. And they aren't forthcoming.

If my perception is NOT reflective of the truth, then Cryptic can easily prove me wrong by doing the opposite of what my assessment suggests they are doing. If they were to do that, I will swiftly and publicly retract my assessment and apologize. Until then, the burden of proof is on them, and as long as they do nothing to contradict my perception, my assessment stands.

They are not lazy in the sense that they don't bust their tails to maintain the status quo. They are lazy in the sense that STO has always had incredible potential, and yet they have not even tried to reach for it, assuming the position of victim by always emphasizing how small they are as a team and how many hats they each have to wear. Ever since PWE bought them, and even now with Gearbox owning them, I have seen no indication that they have done nothing to overcome their victimhood and take strides towards making this game reach for its full potential. They have not done anything about it. They need more developers. As in people who can get in ad actually add features and functionality as well as fixing what's out of sorts. They've added developers in the past, but they've been non-coders. If the difficulties with adding new functionality are related to the state of the current code, then they need people focused on fixing the code while the existing team continues to maintain the status quo until things are where they need to be to begin building upon the foundations.

The status quo has existed for the better part of a decade. MMOs that have been out longer have managed to keep building upon the foundation because THEIR decision-makers realize that just more of the same is not enough to maintain longevity, but new experiences are also needed. Cryptic had an excuse back when they were running out of ideas, before Discovery was announced. Now we have Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Strange New Worlds, and other official Trek material to come. Aside from Age of Discovery, which added an origin story set in Trek as depicted in the Discovery show. What have they done to capitalize on the other shows and later seasons of Discoveery? New ships to fly in the 25th century core game. Gotta push those ships, right?

So again... What exactly IS the truth?

I WANT Cryptic to prove me wrong. If they did, I would be ecstatic. But after all this time, I don't think they will.

The truth is, the developers at Cryptic are very passionate about the Star Trek IP and want to deliver the best game that they possibly can. Period.

Does this game have enormous unrealized potential? Yes. But just because we, as players, want to see the game go in certain directions, incorporate certain ideas, etc., doesn't mean that it falls in line with the intent or plans of the developers. After all, this is their vision of the game, not ours.

Does that make the developers "lazy" or "negligent" because they do not deliver on those hopes, dreams, or expectations? No, not at all. It just means that their focus is somewhere else, but what they are doing is delivering a product that players do enjoy, or else they wouldn't be here.

Look, I know that you are passionate about the game or else you wouldn't be upset, and I understand that you're disappointed about not seeing certain things done. Admittedly, there's things I'd love to see done, too, that I know I may never see. But I enjoy what I have in the game. I appreciate the work that has been done. And I look forward to the things that I know are to come.

In case it's not obvious, though, I do support the idea of incorporating the shuttle bay into the SFA social map. I know that its inclusion would not be a priority, though, and so, I will not assume that failing to do so is "laziness" or "neglect" on the part of the devs. Just that their priorities are elsewhere.

Unknown · May 2022

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baddmoonrizin · May 2022

sirsitsalot wrote: »

It would be nice to know what those priorities are. Because from my chair, they seem to be just maintaining the status quo. I do not see them trying to make the game the best it can possibly be, because for that to be achieved, it needs to actually grow. All I see is them reducing work on things they used to do and doubling down of the delivery of fluff.

I do toss out ideas for things I think would be good for the game's growth. I'm not upset that MY ideas are not used for said growth. I am upset because there IS no said growth. Less effort seems to be going into things. Things have been removed.

As to players actually being here playing it? Ask yourself if they would still be here if they had to pay a subscription fee. Many would not. In fact many would have bailed on the game a long time ago. More people will tolerate a mediocre MMO if it costs them nothing. Why do you think that the DilEx imbalance has been so poorly received by those who do not spend real money on the Zen they need to get the things they want? Those with the money to spend just go ahead and get the Zen and buy what they want. And compared to how things once were, this forum is a ghost town where even topics that go weeks without discussion remain on page one, where they used to be shoved way down the list in a matter of hours. And it isn't because those folks are just finally content with the game as it is... Those folks are just not here anymore.

As I have mentioned, was a member of Peregrine Falcon's fleet. One of MANY. When he got banned for speaking the truth and backing it up with FACTS, that entire fleet stopped playing. He and I talked a good bit outside of these forums and outside of the game. He did not once suggest that I quit the game. So after his ban, the fleet just left. They saw the way the wind was blowing in terms of Cryptic owning up to their failure to keep their promises and what happens to those who called them out on it... And they left. I remained because I wanted to continue to be a voice of reason while maintaining a position favoring the game becoming the best it can possibly be. But when the fleet just dropped to zero activity with me being the only one left, I saw first had a significant chunk of actual players gone from the game. And as far as I can tell, they have not come back.

Under the Free to Play model, Time and Money are supposed to be interchangeable. Well... The numbers who have left the game voted with their time by ceasing to play. And those who are not playing are certainly not paying.

None of us are truly privy to the actual active players to total created accounts ratio. Only Cryptic knows those numbers. Retention does not seem to be their priority. If it were they would be constantly focused on what they perceive is needed to keep players interested in all aspects of the game. But the only thing they seem to focus on is making sure there are new ships to buy expensive bundles to get, or gamble for. Because core gameplay is not something they seem to focus on at all.

As a result: No growth. Again, how long has it been since anything new has actually been added to the game's features and functionality? Now how long has it been since a feature or functionality has been REMOVED? How long has it been since Cryptic has told us what they can and are doing? How long has it been since they told us what they can't do or are no longer doing? You don't have to post the answers here. Just answer to yourself. Then ask yourself if those answers are contributory to the notion of making the STO the best game it can possibly be.

If you come to the same conclusion as I have based on those measurements, you need say no more. But if you have a contrary answer, please let's discuss it. If I really am off-base and out-of-line, then I want to see actual proof demonstrated by Cryptic that belies my assessment. I want my mind to be changed.

I agree, it would be nice to know a lot of things, definitively. But from the devs' point of view, they gain nothing by that. They are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. They get maligned if they say nothing. They get maligned if they say anything. So, from their perspective, it's best if they say nothing. Saves them a lot of grief and heartache. And I get that. Especially, since I have seen and deal with a lot of toxic behavior that goes on in this forum, in the fore and behind the scenes.

Oh, and this doesn't even take into account NDAs.

As an example, though, let's say the devs were to make an announcement that they are looking at ways to bring back the Foundry. Several months go by and then the devs announce, sorry guys, we can't do it. Pandemonium would ensue. There would be calls for devs being fired, accusations of incompetence, conspiracy theories about the whole thing being a ploy or a scr** job to the playerbase. In other words, pretty much what we already have going on. What gain would there be from the devs' point of view for making such an annoucement then?

* NOTE: This is not an invitation to start arguing about the removal/re-addition of the Foundry.

Now, apply that to any annoucements the devs might make about any plans the devs might have in the works, which may or may not pan out. Because I've seen it. "You promised us this and you lied!" No. No one promised anything. But let a dev say anything and a very vocal part of this community considers it chiseled in stone, and will rail against the devs when they do not/cannot deliver. Hence why we get nothing from them anymore until it's about to be released.

And despite what anyone believes, thinks, or feels, nowhere in any devs' job description does it say that they must endure abuse from the playerbase, regardless of the situation.

Now, understand that I am not disagreeing with or arguing against your complaints concerning the game, only the reasoning of the whys of them. I believe, admittedly without tangible evidence, that it's just not the case. That there are other reasons why we're not seeing more of what you and others have suggested. But I also understand why we're not hearing more from the devs about it.

phoenixc · May 2022

The devs are obviously doing something, which they would not be if they were content to just put out fluff and ships.

For instance, the dropping of Win7 support and the sudden influx of bugs are actually good signs (irritating as they may be) of activity deep in the guts of the game. Details of the pattern of changes in the minimums make it almost a certainty that they upgraded their compiler, and they would not be doing that if they were not going to be working with the compiled sections of the code instead of just the upper layer scripts and treating the rest as black boxes.

And poking around in old code that no one has done much with for years not only stirs up lots of bug zombies, it also often sets off new ones. The burst of bugs we have had lately is actually rather mild if they are doing some minor refactoring and tuning things like the compiler change hints they are probably doing (which in itself is a learning process too, compiler version changes often bring new quirks and break things in old code), and they have to get that stuff out of the way before doing anything major like adding entirely new systems and whatnot that a lot of people have been asking for, or it will be an incredible mess.

There is also the factor that anything they do might not produce observable differences in the game for quite a while after implementation. For instance, if they made some new environmental building tools (which they sorely need, there is a livestream highlighting how they make the maps and it is seriously stoneage levels of old-school to say the least) and were able to make maps much quicker than before it would go unnoticed until eventually some player realized that map-heavy content was coming out a little faster than previous years.

And even just producing tools like that depends a lot on properly reorganizing and indexing/tagging resources, which according to what they showed in that livestream are almost strewn around at random with little or no naming strategy so there is a lot of the "we have to do this before doing that" that would have to go on before being able to do much about coding the tools themselves.

Unknown · May 2022

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Unknown · May 2022

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Please add shuttlebay to Starfleet Academy map

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