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what happened to the exchange?

i took a break and i do what i always do grind 8k dil then buy some zen so i can sell the zen on one of my other toons. has soon has i tried it didnt give me a price to click on to sell my dil so i have no clue what the price is to try to sale it. can someone tell me what happened and how it got that way. is there a way to sale my dil if so what price should i sale for
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  • naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    Over time the amount of dil people built up through mass farming reached a point where it devalued dil so much that the price of dil/zen no longer fit within the limits the dilex allows. Dil is so worthless because of how much people have that they consider zen to be worth more then 500 dil/zen.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,476 Arc User
    There's too many savers versus spenders. A supply & demand thing.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,081 Arc User
    Over time the amount of dil people built up through mass farming reached a point where it devalued dil so much that the price of dil/zen no longer fit within the limits the dilex allows. Dil is so worthless because of how much people have that they consider zen to be worth more then 500 dil/zen.

    It's more about a sufficient volume of players running out of useful things to do with their dilithium. Consider that they haven't added anything substantial to do with dilithium in at least a couple years, and fleets (the biggest dil sinks) started maxing out around that same time.

    And, of course, the demand for zen only goes up.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,675 Community Moderator
    Yea... supply and demand. There is too much demand for Zen and not enough demand for DL that... the market is flooded and the supply surplus of Zen we enjoyed pre pandemic is gone.
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  • joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 518 Arc User
    Doesn't help that we've been having events all year long that get bought out, and then people grind them daily for the whole kit'n'caboodle and hoard more dilithium. And all the efforts to relieve that have been duds.
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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,081 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    joshmaul wrote: »
    Doesn't help that we've been having events all year long that get bought out, and then people grind them daily for the whole kit'n'caboodle and hoard more dilithium. And all the efforts to relieve that have been duds.

    The supply side is immaterial. There's almost no demand for dilithium. The dilex system was built around a consistent and significant influx of new things to spend dilithium on. That has long since stopped happening. And as a result, all those things that people used to spend their dilithium on have maxed out, so they stopped buying dilithium and/or started selling their own.
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,465 Arc User
    It's dead Jim.
    It's an economy, but not as we know it.


    You have to list at 500 Dil per Zen for it to eventually go through, and a this point I'd expect it to take about a week to go through. At 3 Mil Zen backlog (click the sell tab to view) it took about 6 days, but it was 3.4 Mil Zen yesterday and they just announced a new Mudd bundle, so expect at least one to two days longer now. It kinda makes listing your 8k Dil by itself pointless, as you won't be able to list a full weeks worth as there's a cap of I think 5 listings, and it appears to be first-come-first-serve for how the listings are gone through when buying. It might be more worthwhile to save up for a bit, then list instead.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    joshmaul wrote: »
    Doesn't help that we've been having events all year long that get bought out, and then people grind them daily for the whole kit'n'caboodle and hoard more dilithium. And all the efforts to relieve that have been duds.

    The supply side is immaterial. There's almost no demand for dilithium. The dilex system was built around a consistent and significant influx of new things to spend dilithium on. That has long since stopped happening. And as a result, all those things that people used to spend their dilithium on have maxed out, so they stopped buying dilithium and/or started selling their own.

    Not entirely NO demand... the two test sales that I ran (in October), indicated a daily Zen throughput of between 320,000 and 400,000.

    We don't know what it was before price cap (there's no way for players to know that)... but I think we all suspect that either it was higher, and/or there's far more supply of dilithium (from people reaching spending goals) than there was before.

    To get back to the OP....
    i took a break and i do what i always do grind 8k dil then buy some zen so i can sell the zen on one of my other toons. has soon has i tried it didnt give me a price to click on to sell my dil so i have no clue what the price is to try to sale it. can someone tell me what happened and how it got that way. is there a way to sale my dil if so what price should i sale for

    You MUST list it at EXACTLY 500 per, or it will never ever get processed unless the price comes off the cap, which hasn't happened in months.

    Listing it at 500 per will put you into a waiting list, which, seeing the above numbers, will probably take somewhere between one and two weeks to get to your turn.

    The amount you place doesn't affect how quickly it will go through.

    HOWEVER if you are just trying to transfer to your own other toons, you actually do not have to convert to Zen. The offers and the "exchange balance" box are both account-wide (up to you actually clicking the "withdraw" button), so if you leave the dilithium in either of those places while changing characters, your other characters can access it. In this case, you can list at a much lower rate (I usually use 100 for the ease).
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,727 Arc User
    When the whole Dilithium exchanged was originally announced and it was described, I inwardly predicted that this would be an eventuality. I don't recall voicing my concern about it, because it actually stood a chance of working as intended. IF Cryptic were to do what they have failed to do: Create true parity between TD and Zen.

    They were at least wise to set an exchange rate floor and ceiling to ensure that even if the inflation I feared happened, it could not go beyond a certain point, and the same thing would hold true for deflation.

    We were originally told to consider Dilithium to be representative of time that players are able to spend doing pretty much any activity Cryptic has designed. And we were told to think of Zen as representative of the money that players have to spend on stuff. The idea was that even players who don't want to spend money to get stuff could get it by trading their RD for Zen. And the original thought was that there would be stuff of importance sold on the RD store that players would be willing to trade Zen for RD to purchase, just as there are things on the C-store that players are willing to trade their RD for the Zen needed to purchase them. And for a while Cryptic DID sort of maintain a balance by alternating between Zen items and RD items, thuse creating a constant back-and-forth. But for quite a while now, there has not been enough new and desirable items added to the RD side of things and sopeople have accumulated so much of it that they have nothing to spend it on that there is no demand for it.

    A state of equilibrium needs to be established, and it will require putting a RD and Zen price on pretty much everything in the respective stores. CRYPTIC needs to establish a fixed exchange rate between Zen and RD, and for each item sold should have [Buy with RD] and [Buy with Zen] option. It should take a lot of Dilithium grinding to be able to afford anything, while the option to spend money to purchase the Zen needed to just buy it outright would be there.

    The exchange would still exist to facilitate the trade of these two currencies, but with a fixed ratio between the items on the marketplace the exchange rate will fluctuate up and down as players set their prices, but will more often than not pull towards the center.

    If the two currencies are meant to represent time vs. money then by putting the purchase option for either on a marketplace would put the choice of either immediately in the hands of the players.

    Or if Cryptic does not want to establish a fixed ratio on the marketplace, they can simply decide how many days they want a given player to refine at least 8000 RD an d set the RD price accordingly with the instand buy price set using Zen. For example, they could set am item at 240000 RDfor 30 days with a Zen price of 1500 Z, which is the monthly stipend which LTSers get, and what regular subscribers also got back in the day... This still gives a direct correlation of Time vs Money and still represents a potential target exchange rate, but it would be measurable, and that is the key to maintaining a stable range of fluctuation.

    There will always be those who want to skip the grind and will spend real money to buy the Zen to just plunk down for the item outright. And there will always be those who don't want to spend a dime and will grind it out instead.

    Equilibrium for both RD and Zen is the only way the exchange will fix itself.
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  • captaincelestialcaptaincelestial Member Posts: 1,914 Arc User
    To be honest, Stock Exchange, I mean Dil Exchange is incredibly boring. Didn't care for it in Star Wars Galaxies and City of Heroes, and I definitely didn't care for it in STO. Without a decent in-game tutorial for those who want to at least dabble in it can easily be lost. Whether it's from not knowing just how much to put on market or how much to try to charge the dil....

    Heck, do most players even know there's an exchange and how it works?
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    ...

    A state of equilibrium needs to be established, and it will require putting a RD and Zen price on pretty much everything in the respective stores. CRYPTIC needs to establish a fixed exchange rate between Zen and RD, and for each item sold should have [Buy with RD] and [Buy with Zen] option. It should take a lot of Dilithium grinding to be able to afford anything, while the option to spend money to purchase the Zen needed to just buy it outright would be there.

    The exchange would still exist to facilitate the trade of these two currencies, but with a fixed ratio between the items on the marketplace the exchange rate will fluctuate up and down as players set their prices, but will more often than not pull towards the center.

    If the two currencies are meant to represent time vs. money then by putting the purchase option for either on a marketplace would put the choice of either immediately in the hands of the players.

    Or if Cryptic does not want to establish a fixed ratio on the marketplace, they can simply decide how many days they want a given player to refine at least 8000 RD an d set the RD price accordingly with the instand buy price set using Zen. For example, they could set am item at 240000 RDfor 30 days with a Zen price of 1500 Z, which is the monthly stipend which LTSers get, and what regular subscribers also got back in the day... This still gives a direct correlation of Time vs Money and still represents a potential target exchange rate, but it would be measurable, and that is the key to maintaining a stable range of fluctuation.

    There will always be those who want to skip the grind and will spend real money to buy the Zen to just plunk down for the item outright. And there will always be those who don't want to spend a dime and will grind it out instead.
    .....

    Problems with this:

    a) The LTS stipend is not the amount you quoted. Not that it's really important to this discussion, but...

    b) Cryptic makes their money - some of which is used to pay the real world costs of operating the game - by Zen sales. Making everything purchaseable directly with dilithium, as you propose, COULD have the effect of destroying Zen sales. Forcing people to go through the exchange to get Zen, prevents that.

  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,727 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    ...

    A state of equilibrium needs to be established, and it will require putting a RD and Zen price on pretty much everything in the respective stores. CRYPTIC needs to establish a fixed exchange rate between Zen and RD, and for each item sold should have [Buy with RD] and [Buy with Zen] option. It should take a lot of Dilithium grinding to be able to afford anything, while the option to spend money to purchase the Zen needed to just buy it outright would be there.

    The exchange would still exist to facilitate the trade of these two currencies, but with a fixed ratio between the items on the marketplace the exchange rate will fluctuate up and down as players set their prices, but will more often than not pull towards the center.

    If the two currencies are meant to represent time vs. money then by putting the purchase option for either on a marketplace would put the choice of either immediately in the hands of the players.

    Or if Cryptic does not want to establish a fixed ratio on the marketplace, they can simply decide how many days they want a given player to refine at least 8000 RD an d set the RD price accordingly with the instand buy price set using Zen. For example, they could set am item at 240000 RDfor 30 days with a Zen price of 1500 Z, which is the monthly stipend which LTSers get, and what regular subscribers also got back in the day... This still gives a direct correlation of Time vs Money and still represents a potential target exchange rate, but it would be measurable, and that is the key to maintaining a stable range of fluctuation.

    There will always be those who want to skip the grind and will spend real money to buy the Zen to just plunk down for the item outright. And there will always be those who don't want to spend a dime and will grind it out instead.
    .....

    Problems with this:

    a) The LTS stipend is not the amount you quoted. Not that it's really important to this discussion, but...

    b) Cryptic makes their money - some of which is used to pay the real world costs of operating the game - by Zen sales. Making everything purchaseable directly with dilithium, as you propose, COULD have the effect of destroying Zen sales. Forcing people to go through the exchange to get Zen, prevents that.

    That's because they DID AWAY with the subscription model instead of using the Free To Play approach as a means of making the early game accessible to everyone at no cost, but allowing players the option of buying into subsequent content releases piece meal, or subscribing to get access to everything. By outright refusing to charge for actual playable content, they have made it so that C-store purchases are the only source of revenue they have. BUT they had this whole system in place to make it so that players could get C-Store items for free aby trading RD for ZEN, but they do not put anything compelling on the RD side so nobody wants to trade away their Zen for it. They outright refuse to add compelling mechanics that could require RD in large enough collective quantities that people would be willing to trade Zen for RD.

    See that would mean actual WORK rather than just putting a ship on the C-store or in gamble boxes for us to throw money at just a slim CHANCE of getting it. But apparently, that's all that PWE thinks a MMO needs. And we've been proving them right.

    The only way to fix the exchange is to make sure that both RD and Zen are equally relevant at all times. And if they are not willing to add mechanics or prerequisites that require large quantities of RD even while they continue to sell ships and push lottery box key sales, then they need to put a purchase option for Zen or RD on all items. Because it won't matter what the exchange rate is if there is nothing useful to do with RD. The exchange inflation is just a symptom of the core problem.
    There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties
    if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle...
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    has soon has i tried it didnt give me a price to click on to sell my dil so i have no clue what the price is to try to sale it.

    It doesn't recommend a price because there is a surplus of dil in the dil/ex and no Zen. For the past 7 months or so the only exchange rate that ever works is 500/1, but due to the dil surplus it will not be instant. I'm not sure how long the delay is these days (I only ever use the dilex from the other side), but it'll be at least a few hours, possibly a few days before paying players add enough zen to the dilex for your order to be processed.
    EDIT: another poster has indicated that the current wait time is longer than two weeks. Until the devs address the sil sink issue this wait period is only going to get longer.

    As for the why, Cryptic has allowed players to accumulate massive stockpiles of dilithium without any meaningful sinks for them to use it on. Fleet holdings kept it down for awhile, but they were never a permanent solution and once the big fleets finished theirs it was only a matter of time before the system broke down.
    Post edited by evilmark444 on
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  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 218 Arc User
    its almost as if they have been trying to push dil out of the game in order to instead push people towards buying zen with real money again.​​
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    its almost as if they have been trying to push dil out of the game in order to instead push people towards buying zen with real money again.​​

    People have been buying zen with real money all along, every single zen you've ever obtained through the dilex was purchased with real money (or came from a lifetime sub's stipend). The dilex is there for those who for whatever reason can't or won't buy zen directly, and most of these people either can't or won't change their mind on that just because the dilex is suddenly broken. If anything the dilex being in it's current state is probably costing Cryptic some amount of money (likely a small amount since they don't seem to have much urgency in addressing it) because those who do buy zen have no need to buy dilithium and therefore don't need as much zen as they would if dilithium had value.
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  • aftulusaftulus Member Posts: 668 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    has soon has i tried it didnt give me a price to click on to sell my dil so i have no clue what the price is to try to sale it.

    It doesn't recommend a price because there is a surplus of dil in the dil/ex and no Zen. For the past 7 months or so the only exchange rate that ever works is 500/1, but due to the dil surplus it will not be instant. I'm not sure how long the delay is these days (I only ever use the dilex from the other side), but it'll be at least a few hours, possibly a few days before paying players add enough zen to the dilex for your order to be processed.

    As for the why, Cryptic has allowed players to accumulate massive stockpiles of dilithium without any meaningful sinks for them to use it on. Fleet holdings kept it down for awhile, but they were never a permanent solution and once the big fleets finished theirs it was only a matter of time before the system broke down.

    We're at 2 weeks and counting for orders.

    I proposed a new reserve system for the fleets that might help this. It allow free trade of all resources at the build discrection and priceing. any fleet resrouce is tradable. You build this new building and then trade between fleets. EC and dil both being resources can be used to trade other resources acting as a sink. Also the potential fluency from some guilds to keep their bonuses going might help sink things. And the potential of making EC to buy off the market may use up resources including dil to help act as a sink. If you make it variable enough it might work. And if you give a means for fleets to buy dil to keep their things up, including late game fleet missions, it might act as a late game sink. Allowing an actual market, in this case related to fleets only, could act as permanent sink just by allowing the resources to be distributed in a more traditional manner. At least to some extent.

    BTW, this would come in the form of a new fleet building. A storage facility with trade abilities. Maybe a new location. Or if needed use the existing bases and just add a shiny trading console. It could have new tiers and trade abilities upgraded as you go and be worth having for fleets. As you would likely need to fully upgrade to get max capacity to trade.

    It would at least add inter fleet trading and more reason to use a guild. Or at least more end game activity between guilds. And if it's diverse enough the ability for fleets to RP different types of fleets internally. And create unique trading hubs. This can be done with spread sheet logic. Just add all resources to a spreadsheet option window. No info is not available. Any data means you set a price. Any fleet resource can be traded for any other fleet resource. Just set the price of one to another resources and you can create a unique selling buying structure per resource per fleet.

    The point being to make a relatively simple tool and let the market take care of itself. If it's fully customizable fleets will sort out the rest themselves and it could fix all markets. As it involves no change in the overall input of resources into the entire system, it's just a distribution change. This allows different habits allowing more fluent use for those who wish to put the work into it. This could change the problem via shear human habit. We have surplus of guilds needing dil and other resources to get missions done. So the problem is not available missions. It's the dil getting to the guilds itself. If you allow a freeform adjustment of the resources between guilds you could solve the problem to a large extent or completely.

    BTW, the system should also allow trading between guilds. Maybe via in game screen. And/or allow players/designated fleet members to trade vai consoles. That could all be done via fleet setting and rank access. Settings could allow some players to use greater fleet resources to trade internally and use up saved EC. The consoles can allow freeform trade. That should allow diverse trading system that is adjustable per fleet.

    This makes a system where players can get an invite to a fleet(the fleet can advertise or allow a new setting to auto invite to this new location) this allows a drop box solution to getting resources. You set prices and you buy from other players/fleets. This can be done between fleets to spread resources in a new manner. This would result in some fleets using up more dil more fluently without changing inputs. Just consumption of resources.

    This new location could be either a fleet storage location or a fleet bazaar. Maybe in ferengi space. IE a traditional market in rts and other games. But for limited fleet resources. A unique location could be useful if it doesn't need invites. Or if fleets can set invite or lack of invites need to join their fleets instance. It could be a fleet setting. Then you just change instances and join the fleet you want to trade. Trade channels and players can do the rest. If you make everything a fleet setting then fleets will make unique instances for totally unique gameplay for the least amount of work and the most options for players/fleets diversifying the game as much as possible and making it adjustable over time. the least work for crytpic and the most benefit for the players. A simple open ended fleet oriented trade system.

    The main point is you have endless fleets waiting for dil. If you supply them fluently you can get it more used up and see how much that balances the game.
    Post edited by aftulus on
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    aftulus wrote: »
    Were at 2 weeks and counting for orders.

    Thanks for the info, I've updated my post.
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  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I ran two test sales back in October that went through at 4 and 6 days, but the amount of backlog at that time was roughly half of what it currently is, so I'm not really surprised if we're up to around two weeks.

    Here's the data from the second test:
    placed 9:54 PM 10/27
    Backlog 2,282,000

    executed 4:05pm 11/2

    5.75 days.

    estimated zen throughput 400,000/day

    The first sale was similar except that the backlog was smaller.
  • aftulusaftulus Member Posts: 668 Arc User
    I've been running constand 5x250 zen buys zince that period. My last onces each took around 13 days each. I'm hoping my next ones dont.

    My last succesful sale was dec 9. if it holdes true my next batch will be almost christmas.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    westmetals wrote: »
    ...

    A state of equilibrium needs to be established, and it will require putting a RD and Zen price on pretty much everything in the respective stores. CRYPTIC needs to establish a fixed exchange rate between Zen and RD, and for each item sold should have [Buy with RD] and [Buy with Zen] option. It should take a lot of Dilithium grinding to be able to afford anything, while the option to spend money to purchase the Zen needed to just buy it outright would be there.

    The exchange would still exist to facilitate the trade of these two currencies, but with a fixed ratio between the items on the marketplace the exchange rate will fluctuate up and down as players set their prices, but will more often than not pull towards the center.

    If the two currencies are meant to represent time vs. money then by putting the purchase option for either on a marketplace would put the choice of either immediately in the hands of the players.

    Or if Cryptic does not want to establish a fixed ratio on the marketplace, they can simply decide how many days they want a given player to refine at least 8000 RD an d set the RD price accordingly with the instand buy price set using Zen. For example, they could set am item at 240000 RDfor 30 days with a Zen price of 1500 Z, which is the monthly stipend which LTSers get, and what regular subscribers also got back in the day... This still gives a direct correlation of Time vs Money and still represents a potential target exchange rate, but it would be measurable, and that is the key to maintaining a stable range of fluctuation.

    There will always be those who want to skip the grind and will spend real money to buy the Zen to just plunk down for the item outright. And there will always be those who don't want to spend a dime and will grind it out instead.
    .....

    Problems with this:

    a) The LTS stipend is not the amount you quoted. Not that it's really important to this discussion, but...

    b) Cryptic makes their money - some of which is used to pay the real world costs of operating the game - by Zen sales. Making everything purchaseable directly with dilithium, as you propose, COULD have the effect of destroying Zen sales. Forcing people to go through the exchange to get Zen, prevents that.

    That's because they DID AWAY with the subscription model instead of using the Free To Play approach as a means of making the early game accessible to everyone at no cost, but allowing players the option of buying into subsequent content releases piece meal, or subscribing to get access to everything. By outright refusing to charge for actual playable content, they have made it so that C-store purchases are the only source of revenue they have. BUT they had this whole system in place to make it so that players could get C-Store items for free aby trading RD for ZEN, but they do not put anything compelling on the RD side so nobody wants to trade away their Zen for it. They outright refuse to add compelling mechanics that could require RD in large enough collective quantities that people would be willing to trade Zen for RD.

    See that would mean actual WORK rather than just putting a ship on the C-store or in gamble boxes for us to throw money at just a slim CHANCE of getting it. But apparently, that's all that PWE thinks a MMO needs. And we've been proving them right.

    The only way to fix the exchange is to make sure that both RD and Zen are equally relevant at all times. And if they are not willing to add mechanics or prerequisites that require large quantities of RD even while they continue to sell ships and push lottery box key sales, then they need to put a purchase option for Zen or RD on all items. Because it won't matter what the exchange rate is if there is nothing useful to do with RD. The exchange inflation is just a symptom of the core problem.

    Agreed... BUT your proposed solution to just put dilithium prices on everything, potentially would mean a decrease in Zen sales, because the players willing to farm their dilithium can just spend it directly. Forcing the Zen conversion means that people (though not necessarily the same ones) have to buy the Zen at some point.

    And regardless of your time = money point... in terms of paying the real world costs of the game, they can't spend time to pay for those things. Voice actors don't accept people's online time as payment, grocery stores won't sell the programmers ramen for our time, etc. So at some point selling Zen is necessary.

    I do understand and agree with most of your assessment of the problem - no need to wall-of-text me again - but the proposed solution to just put dilithium prices throughout the Zen store, is not reasonable.

    My personal opinion would be to do some or all of these three things:

    - add a trade-upward option to the Phoenix store.
    - add a lobi crystal purchase option to the Phoenix store (based on current estimated value, I'd say one crystal = one blue token)

    Both of those would increase access to upper-level Phoenix and all lobi store items - directly through an existing dilithium sale (Phoenix packs).

    and third...

    - copy or transfer the single-character slots/services purchases from the Zen store to the dilithium store.

    All three should have the effect of increasing demand for dilithium without significantly affecting Zen sales, or requiring any new systems.
  • payback99payback99 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    The
    Over time the amount of dil people built up through mass farming reached a point where it devalued dil so much that the price of dil/zen no longer fit within the limits the dilex allows. Dil is so worthless because of how much people have that they consider zen to be worth more then 500 dil/zen.
    It's not just people that have tons that think 500 dil/zen isn't worth it. I only play for new content so I'm always low on dilithium. The only real use for dilithium is when they add the ship upgrades or if you want to upgrade gear or need it from a fleet. The problem with fleets is you can't access the good gear unless you got a max fleet. I have 14 chars and half of them are in basically dead lvl 20-65 or what ever fleets that I and other people have invested tons of time and resources into and so feel bad to leave them and let all that have been a waste. Since these chars don't need the "best" gear all I need is to upgrade one set of ok/event/good gear for them and then Dilithium is entirely worthless to them. If I can't scrounge enough dilithium from my other characters at the time I will occasionally do an exchange but thats only if I "need" the character maxed right away.

    Meanwhile Zen is always useful since even if you hate the new ships coming out like I hate the discovery ones you can always use more ship/drydock slots or just saving it for the next legendary bundle or other big zen purchase.

    If they removed the cap and let it shoot up to 2k per zen or what ever you can bet people like myself would be stocking up on dilithium especially if they added more dilithium uses. Hell even just making the phoenix prizes more worthwhile would get people spending more dilithium. Add old infinity ships or some lobi stuff every once in awhile cause atm the grandprize is completely worthless and even the 2nd prize is only worth it when it has the ship upgrade in it.
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 999 Arc User
    well, an obvious solution is to either completely limit dil refining per account, or severely cut the sources of Dil.. like eliminating it from admiralty rewards and such. none of it appetizing but it's the way to do it. if you overeat you gain weight you want to get healthy you eliminate extra calories. the game has far too many sources of calories, aka dilithium.
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  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,465 Arc User
    nixie50 wrote: »
    well, an obvious solution is to either completely limit dil refining per account, or severely cut the sources of Dil.. like eliminating it from admiralty rewards and such. none of it appetizing but it's the way to do it. if you overeat you gain weight you want to get healthy you eliminate extra calories. the game has far too many sources of calories, aka dilithium.

    Account wide refining didn't help Neverwinter, seeing that it maxed out the Exchange sooner than STO did, so I'd doubt it'd help with the current situation. If it's one refine for the whole account's Dil pile, I'd actually be refining more than I am right now, as I've not been doing too much more than the daily for the Event, leaving most of my characters with several days of unrefined Dil each still unrefined. I doubt I'm alone in that. On top of that, there seems to be a decent amount of one character players that have a massive amount of unrefined dil, and I worry that there might be more of those than mega farmers, nullifying the change.

    Cutting out the Dil calories would quickly move the problem from being hard to grind out because it's at cap to being hard to grind out because it's just hard to get...
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,081 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    nixie50 wrote: »
    well, an obvious solution is to either completely limit dil refining per account, or severely cut the sources of Dil.. like eliminating it from admiralty rewards and such. none of it appetizing but it's the way to do it. if you overeat you gain weight you want to get healthy you eliminate extra calories. the game has far too many sources of calories, aka dilithium.

    Reducing supply won't magically create demand. And that's where this whole thing went sideways -- Cryptic completely ignored dilithium demand. For years. All the major consumers of dilithium have since maxed out. So the demand for dilithium is miniscule, and cutting the supply won't get them to start buying it again. They have no further use for it. The remaining, tiny population of players who still buy dilithium do so in quantities of convenience, so they won't spend more zen buying dilithium. They'll just wait longer and use more of their own.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    nixie50 wrote: »
    well, an obvious solution is to either completely limit dil refining per account, or severely cut the sources of Dil.. like eliminating it from admiralty rewards and such. none of it appetizing but it's the way to do it. if you overeat you gain weight you want to get healthy you eliminate extra calories. the game has far too many sources of calories, aka dilithium.

    That only hits one part of the problem, the current massive surplus and lack of demand would still need to be addressed. The demand can be addressed by introducing desirable things with a dilithium price tag on them, but the massive amount of refined dil that currently exists is a trickier issue to tackle. The devs have mentioned that one idea they've considered is a purchasable vanity ability that summons a massive dilithium moon non-combat pet with an astronomical price tag as a means of getting rid of the massive stockpiles of dil some people have built up.
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,476 Arc User
    Maybe it's more difficult to entice players to spend rather than save?
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Reducing supply won't magically create demand.

    Repeating this for emphasis.

    The problem is not people earning dilithium. In fact plenty of (mostly newer) players are currently earning dilithium that will never ever hit the exchange, and so in the grand scheme of things, might as well not exist.

    The problem is that every way to spend dilithium - with the exception of buying Zen - has some sort of logical limit to it, and those limits have not substantially changed since roughly three to four years ago, so many, many players have had time to reach them.

    When that happens, it results in one of two behaviors, both of which drive the exchange rate upward.
    - players who have been earning dilithium and then spending it as dilithium, switch to trying to use it to buy Zen.
    - players who have been buying Zen and then exchanging it for dilithium, switch to spending it as Zen (or not buying it at all).

    Both of those could be alleviated - at least temporarily - by a new and desirable way to spend dilithium.

    Nerfing dilithium earning would have an impact in the longer term (by slowing down players hitting the above situation, and/or reducing the amount people can post for conversion to Zen)... but in the short term would hurt new players which is probably not something the devs want to do. And as mentioned, reducing the supply of dilithium does not automatically and most likely will not cause more Zen to be posted for conversion to dilithium... because the players you're thinking of probably don't need ANY dilithium, which is different from not needing more than they can themselves earn.
  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,664 Arc User
    it just strikes me as weird that if supply and demand were the *only* issue here, why not just make the ui able to show prices over 500? I don't like the idea of inflation here but it seems like it would be an easy fix to keep the exchange working, rather than, you know... Having the whole thing come to a grinding halt. I've had the same Dil on sale for 500 for about two weeks, and it's still not sold.


    I've also had the UI swap from selling Dil to buying Dil, when i hit the make offer button, so i really just don't trust that the UI is working as it should be. Now that the Sell Dil is a blank screen, it's made it VERY obvious when it happens, rather than a "did that just happen?" kind of thing. It's only happened twice, now but still....



    It just seems like an easy fix that just isn't being fixed.
  • naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    it just strikes me as weird that if supply and demand were the *only* issue here, why not just make the ui able to show prices over 500? I don't like the idea of inflation here but it seems like it would be an easy fix to keep the exchange working, rather than, you know... Having the whole thing come to a grinding halt. I've had the same Dil on sale for 500 for about two weeks, and it's still not sold.
    IIRC they tried that in Neverwiner and the price of Astral Diamonds rose to the new cap in like days, causing the whole thing to grind right back to a halt.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,081 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    it just strikes me as weird that if supply and demand were the *only* issue here, why not just make the ui able to show prices over 500? I don't like the idea of inflation here but it seems like it would be an easy fix to keep the exchange working, rather than, you know... Having the whole thing come to a grinding halt. I've had the same Dil on sale for 500 for about two weeks, and it's still not sold.


    I've also had the UI swap from selling Dil to buying Dil, when i hit the make offer button, so i really just don't trust that the UI is working as it should be. Now that the Sell Dil is a blank screen, it's made it VERY obvious when it happens, rather than a "did that just happen?" kind of thing. It's only happened twice, now but still....



    It just seems like an easy fix that just isn't being fixed.

    Because the demand for dilithium isn't substantial enough to keep the dilex running any more. And the cheaper the exchange rates get for dilithium the *FASTER* players max out their use for dilithium, accelerating the death spiral. The *ONLY* way to fix the Dilex is from the demand side. No more demand, and it will spend the rest of this game's existence on lifesupport.
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