“Um... the trigger conditions on ALL of those consoles require manual activations. I didn't have time to activate any of them. You can't activate things in advance when you're respawning and being spawncamped.“
Respawning and being spawn camped is a completely different problem and is unacceptably toxic behaviour. Part of the problem is the devs crazy arena design where one team spawns in a random different spot each time while the other team always spawns every single time in the same spot. Both teams should be random. Still with enough EHP you should be able to get out of spawn camp.
“And you wonder why there's not enough PVP players. And yet you will not listen when we tell you why.”
You seemed to be talking about "vape killed repeatedly, with no way to stop it." not spawn camping.
The solution I gave you solves the problem in your quote for normal PvP outside of spawn camping. With spawn camping EHP + my other solution works. My solution solves the reaction time problem for normal PvP where a cloaked vipe build comes out and Alpha strikes you before you get chance to respond while you are flying around the map. My solution stops you being killed in 2 seconds none stop in a normal honest fight.
“@pottsey5g Okay, so challenge time. You said you can make a budget PvP build...so pick a ship and come up with a PvP viable build that is NOT a zipcort for under 200 mil EC and no more than 200k refined dil using only free traits + the one the ship comes with.”
Challenge accepted although I would point when I said my previous comments I was talking cheap on EC not dill. Not 100% sure how close I can hit that refined dil but I will see what I can do. Are Cstore or event ships acceptable? Reasonably priced Cstore ships not the legendry. How are we handling the free reputation store vouchers dill does that come out of 200k refined? Or is it 200k refined + reputation store vouchers after hitting tier 6/recruit. I also have a 15% dill discount for reputation store items and will use that discount if that's ok.
>I'm sorry...but needs a million refined dil IS NOT A BUDGET BUILD. That is a HUGE barrier of entry. Using one F2P toon, that is 125 days or nearly a third of a year JUST to get a PvP ready ship for that ONE character.
Sure, if you want to build a STO character, you might as well spend your dilithium instead of saving it for winter, if you are too impatient to wait for that long to see the end results, you could skip a movie and a cheeseburger at the mall and speed up the process (optional ofc)
“Only because you did not fully comprehend what I said, you saw "vape killed" and stopped there. You assumed the rest of what you were basing your recommendations on, even though what you assumed did not match the provided information. You proceeded to suggest things that require player actions to activate, but that I had already said I did not have time to activate.”
You seem to have completely changed your story. Just gone back to read your posts to make sure I didn’t misread and you were talking about normal PvP combat. Now all of a sudden, you’re talking about spawn camping which you never referenced directly.
For example “And every piece of advice I was given on "how to survive getting hit by a vape build" fell into one of four categories:” or “but every single piece of advice I got for how to survive alpha-strike vapes was either not effective,”“And this with a well-above-average PVE build. But it didn't matter what else I had because I did not have the one magical thing that allows surviving a vape strike.”
E.c.t so you were talking about a problem surviving vape strikes and I tried to offer you advice and methods to survive vape strikes. It’s proven that surviving vape strikes is possible without to much trouble in normal honest PvP fights. Now all of a sudden you are not talking vape strikes but spawn camping. That a massive difference and entirely different thing.
So are you or are you not having problems surviving vape strikes in normal honest PvP without spawn camping? How come my build works for most other people? If the build works for 9 players out of 10 then the problem tends to suggest that 1 person is doing something wrong. Surviving vape strikes is possible to do pretty consistently so if that is your problem all I am trying to do is help by offering solutions that have been proven to work.
If we are talking toxic players and spawn camping well the only option it to stack up large amount of EHP and move out the way. Ideally the devs need to make some minor changes. Two solutions to spawn camping that I have seen in other PvP games is you give the person who spawns a x second immunity so they get chance to move away and to do something. Plus randomize the spawn point. I don’t understand why team A is randomized and team B is fixed.
“I can just as easily demonstrate many a build with plenty of durability built in that will not survive without the high end traits. “
Yet I can easily demonstrate builds that are not high end from an EC point of view with plenty of durability that will survive without high end traits. Proving what you are saying is wrong. I have already posted 2 solutions and will post a more detailed build later or two this weekend.
“. Right on queue you resort to the default excuse of "you just have a bad build and keep dying" completely dismissing any sort of criticism because it doesn't line up with your views of what pvp should be. It's never that someone has a legitimate issue, no it's always that they don't know as much as you do.”
Have you stopped to think that just perhaps the problem is a bad build and not that the other person is doing something unbalanced? So far I have not seen many real legitimate issue from you. Outside of spawn camping which I agree is toxic. You seem to be blaming everyone and everything else. Other players with decent mid-range builds in normal honest PvP are not having any problems. If anyone dares point out they are doing ok without expensive traits you throw toxic comments at them.
“Meaning 50% is the minimum resting I would start with in any build. I also have the ability to spike up to 88% or more along with buffs to shield hardness and so on. Yet still it's often not enough due to the cheese nature of vape builds or so on. You say that 98% of things are really cheap to obtain, but then you go into this list of how I supposedly need this health boost, that health boost, this resistance item, that defense buff, and this long list of stuff just to survive, yet very little of it if any is super cheap to pick up.”
The most expensive item I listed is around 8million which is cheap. The rest of the items are store items so even cheaper. Just what is so expensive about that?
50% resting resistance is rather poor. You spend all this time saying it’s not the build then you post what is a low stat. My sitting resistance is almost 20% higher than yours with nothing rare. This is not about boasting this is to point out how 50% sitting is not that high. You never posted your EHP but given your low sitting resistance I expect your EHP in a sitting situation is also very low. You say very little of it is cheap but that is not true. Most of it is very cheap from an EC cost point of view. This is what I mean by you keep spreading misinformation.
“ So you just contradicted your last post about everything being super cheap and easy to put together. So thank you for proving my point that it's not as cheap as you say it is and does indeed take quite a bit of investment as I said it did previously. I'm sorry but needing effectively 1m hp just to survive, yeah no, that's grossly unbalanced.”
I never contradicted myself everything I listed is relatively cheap and massively below your made up 750million figure. How is effective hitpoitns unbalanced. Why is it? effective hitpoint buffers are a core part of normal everyday life in most forms of PvP across most games that have PvP. Its part of balanced normal gameplay. Having a buffer is not grossly unbalanced. It’s the opposite as it’s a good balance put in place to counter viper builds and counter other problems.
“And there it is right on queue again. Not only do you completely dismiss what I have said, but you then go on to insult my build having never seen anything that I have,”
There you go again turning a none negative comment into a negative. So, you can insult other peoples builds without reason and without seeing them. You can brag how high end your build is. You can insult other players and thrown toxic comments at them. But as soon as someone points out a flaw in your build and how that might be part of the problem you see that as attacking! I am not attacking your build. The problem here is you seem to see the worst in everything and see attacks that are not attacks. Proving my point again. Blaming everyone and everything else.
You have nothing to prove but if your build is failing time and time again and other peoples build are not failing using basic everyday items. Then it’s time to stop blaming the other players like you are. Stop throwing toxic comments at other players because your build is failing. It’s not our fault.
“yet instead of actually listening and trying to come up with solutions to get these people back into pvp, or even get new people into pvp, you continue to double down on the same tired excuses.”
That’s not true, throughout this thread you have multiple times said the opposite to what I am doing. There are more then enough quotes where I offered solutions, changes to improve PvP and I never once doubled down on tried excuses. You just don’t like what I am saying so you are putting a fake toxic negative spin on everything.
“ When you're dying in a single shot, there is no time to react to anything, and no chance to rebuild unless you have one of the uber traits. We can debate this point until the cows come home, but again you won't convince me on this.”
None of that has to be the case as all of that is fixable and solvable in game now without high end traits or rare gear. You don’t have to get killed in a single shot without time to react or use uber traits. If you are then there is something wrong with the build. You don’t have to use high end/uber traits or spend mass amounts of EC. But every time someone tried to point this out, all we get is you posting toxic comments back at us and then you just flat out refuse to listen while accusing everyone else of dismissing everything, while you yourself are dismissing what we are trying to say to help. Its very clear you don’t care. Well I do care and will keep trying to help people by showing how it can be solved with current in game items.
“That line in bold right there is the exact blanket dismissal you said you weren't doing.”
I dismissed that statement as its 100% false, not true and just a toxic comment from you. Just because I dismissed your toxic comment it doesn’t mean I am blanket dismissing everything.
“You demonstrate to people like me who used to pvp that you don't care about concerns we have raised or preventing those experiences from repeating. You demonstrate to new people that if they're going to come into pvp they better shut up and tow the line the "experienced" people put out for them. “
You’re in interpretation of events is shocking negative and wrong. I am demonstrating the opposite to what you say.
" measuring contest of who has done more and what,”
More toxic attitude. My comment wasn’t a measuring contest it was to prove I am not what you say I am. Why do you have to put such a massive negative spin on everything? This isn’t a competition to see who is better, this is not a PvP match. This is about solving the problems people have in PvP. Unlike you I am offering valid workable solutions.
I don’t have time tonight but I am going to come back this weekend and post a budget build or two without rare traits that doesn’t cost much EC and doesn't 1 shot die to prove what I am saying. Hopefully this will help a number of people. You can refuse to listen as much as you like. I am still going to try to help people despite the negative attitude of people like you.
so i think my math is ok, again, i am not saying that you should skip a cheeseburger
>>You OBVIOUSLY don't care about getting new people to PvP and you are one of the toxic ones who just wants more punching bags so you can show off your e-peen because your real one is tiny.
Yeah i took my time to create a guide for those who actually want/are inclined to pvp and help them not being punching bags, but i am the toxic dude with the tiny thing
>I'm sorry...but needs a million refined dil IS NOT A BUDGET BUILD. That is a HUGE barrier of entry. Using one F2P toon, that is 125 days or nearly a third of a year JUST to get a PvP ready ship for that ONE character.
Sure, if you want to build a STO character, you might as well spend your dilithium instead of saving it for winter, if you are too impatient to wait for that long to see the end results, you could skip a movie and a cheeseburger at the mall and speed up the process (optional ofc)
A movie and a cheeseburger is 200 bucks where you live?!? People are complaining that the barrier to entry is too damn high for PvP and your BUDGET build is one that takes a third of a year or 200 bucks. Right...that totally solves the too high barrier of entry. You OBVIOUSLY don't care about getting new people to PvP and you are one of the toxic ones who just wants more punching bags so you can show off your e-peen because your real one is tiny. Do the PvP community a favor and leave.
As a former PvP player, who retired several years ago, it does truly sadden me to see how the PvP community has de-evolved. Didnt use to be like this.
Sadly Cold, apart from maybe one or two, I dont think there are truly any decent PvP community members left. A part of me, wouldnt mind if it faded away completely.
Another part of me, thinks that if PvP were to be revived, it would need to be in a format of pre-assigned ships, a bank of gear traits & skills. Standard slate across the board, with no one having access to any of their 'goods' their account has. That way, if someone new wanted to give PvP a try, that wouldn't need to farm for months or dig into their pockets in any big way, if at all.
Though that would require the design of a completely new system. With Cryptic's staffing levels, the % of the population who still plays PvP on the regular as well as the return of investment (Cryptic would need to essentially give up any return at all (yeah i know not happening) i might as well ask Santa for a 747.
@darkbladejk Sorry to hear about your pretty nasty experiences with PvP. May i ask if you were around in the game in 2011 - mid 2013?
Another part of me, thinks that if PvP were to be revived, it would need to be in a format of pre-assigned ships, a bank of gear traits & skills. Standard slate across the board, with no one having access to any of their 'goods' their account has. That way, if someone new wanted to give PvP a try, that wouldn't need to farm for months or dig into their pockets in any big way, if at all.
Though that would require the design of a completely new system. With Cryptic's staffing levels, the % of the population who still plays PvP on the regular as well as the return of investment (Cryptic would need to essentially give up any return at all (yeah i know not happening) i might as well ask Santa for a 747.
it does feel like most devs moved on to other projects years ago :P
“Another part of me, thinks that if PvP were to be revived, it would need to be in a format of pre-assigned ships, a bank of gear traits & skills. Standard slate across the board, with no one having access to any of their 'goods' their account has.”
That would destroy PvP for me and drive a core group of players away from PvP. I find pre-configured ships are horrible in PvE and PvP as they take away what I like about the two. For me there is nothing worse than being forced into other character or another character builds. There are some very rare exceptions like Quark's Lucky Seven which I thought was great. But 90% of the the time I was forced into something else it was a horrible expreince.
It's fascinating how triggered people are by this topic.
Like many players, I only really do PVP when it comes up as the endeavour, and I do kind of enjoy it in small doses, but one thing that nearly always happens is that the matches are hugely unbalanced and one team crushes the other 15-0 or close to it, even without any PVP ships in the mix. New players quickly come away with these negative experiences and want nothing more to do with PVP. The problem is that PVP in this game is inherently unbalanced because there is such a huge gap in capability between the average players and the top tier and they all get thrown in together. Maybe if they had introduced some sort of ranking system back in the early days... oh well, probably too late for that now.
“Another part of me, thinks that if PvP were to be revived, it would need to be in a format of pre-assigned ships, a bank of gear traits & skills. Standard slate across the board, with no one having access to any of their 'goods' their account has.”
That would destroy PvP for me and drive a core group of players away from PvP. I find pre-configured ships are horrible in PvE and PvP as they take away what I like about the two. For me there is nothing worse than being forced into other character or another character builds. There are some very rare exceptions like Quark's Lucky Seven which I thought was great. But 90% of the the time I was forced into something else it was a horrible expreince.
I agree with you on pre-fab ships...especially considering how badly they do it in other parts of the game...but the second suggestion of having a pool of PvP only gear does have merit. And if you driven away by something that levels the playing field so skill, not how much you spent matters more...GOOD.
It depends how they do it if they did go down that path. For me the fun is mixing and matching odd setups to see what works. I tend to gravitate towards niche setups like Minelayers or full carriers so my worry is a pool of gear wont match my playstyle or match my odd skill choices. Not that minelayers are a good choice but I still like to try to make them work. I don't like to be pigeon holed into cookie cutter setups.
Not forgot about your challenge its half done. Hoping to have time to finish it tomorrow. Its looking like one build is just going be over while the other version is just within.
@Coldnapalm Here is my budget PvP build, this is meant more as a base template to start building from over a copy and fly build. Carriers are not the best choice but I like carriers so I picked a Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier T6. There are also more then enough Zipcorts so I wanted something different. The idea of the build is to have time to react so you can learn PvP better. To wear down the opponent with better durability in 1v1. Most Vipers are glass cannons and so if they cannot vipe you in a sustained fight you beat them. Also I don't tend to do Arena unless its 1v1. My preference is Capture and Hold and the open PvP zone. 5v5 pre arranged Arena fights is an entirely different ball game.
Tactical Slots Options A: x4 Protomatter Matric Infuser (Which ever type fits your chosen weapon type and if you have earned a free T6-X take x5 Matric Infusers. Depending on choice 40k to 50k Dilithium without discount.
Tactical Slots Option B. x5 Pax Tactical consoles which give damage + hitpoints which is the option I personally perfer but for most people option A is more sensible.
Engineer Slots x2 Pax Monotanium Alloy and x2 Pax Triburnium Alloy 90k without discount + Hull Image Refractors @ around 6 million.
Science Slots x2 Pax Nanite-Reinforced Circuitry. Or replace 1 Pax Nanite with Enhanced Dominion Command Interface. Depending on choice 22.5k to 45k Dilithium without discount. (Possible a Voth Power Core if you have access)
Personally I like Borg Defleactor, Borg Engine, Mycelial Warp Core and Tilly’s Shield which is 65,000 Dilithium. Most people would recommend the Competitive Engine for mobility. To reduce costs although it’s a little weaker x2 Kobali Regenerative Circuitry which is for free from missions. Depending on options 32.5k to 65k.
Depending on options chosen that’s 162.5k at the low end within budget and 250k at the high end a little over budget. Both without the discounts. Ideally the new player has started with a recruit event, not essential but it would help for all the free boosts like better pre upgraded store gear.
Not going into weapons as there is plenty of EC left leaving people to choose whatever style they prefer. Similarly Bridge Officers powers it all comes down to the style of play you have. Personally, I don’t take healing powers though I do have Reverse Shield Polarity (RSP 3). Not always but sometimes I decided to fit a Voth Power Core at which point I swap in EPtS3 as with Endeavours + skill points its pretty easy to get up near max shield resistance which has a large increase in total EHP helping survive Alpha Strikes. Normally I take EptE1 to use alongside Evasive Maneuvers.
Bridge Officers all humans for the extra free healing. Every little help.
Doffs
If you can find them cheap x3 Nurse doffs to help with free hull healing and better if they go into the ground slot but space works as well. Purples are expensive so try to find the cheap green ones that pop up. Might take a few days of checking the exchange.
Fabrication Engineer to extend Reverse Shield Polarity 3. Costs 2 to 4 million ish for very rare or rare depending on exchange conditions.
Con Officer to reduce recharge on Evasive Manoeuvres very rare 500k
x3 Flight Deck Officers but that’s only because I like carriers which is a bad idea for most people and most PvP builds. Going to leave these empty as there is plenty of EC left in the budget and the best thing to slots depends on the weapon choices of the individual. Torp boats I assume might pick Projectile doffs e.c.t
Other Stuff
Make sure you have decent shortcut keys setup. Have that RSP easy to trigger and it should last a good 28seconds if not longer.
If using Protomatter Matric Infuser+ Hull Image Refractors which is the best combo to survive. Set the Lieutenant Commander Universal to Tactical for the extra EHP that stops Alpha Strikes.
Don’t wait for combat to start to use bridge officer powers. Make sure you have the Tactical powers cycling none stop outside of combat so that you have a massive Temporary hitpoint pool to absorb the Alpha strikes, decloaking Vipers. Plus in combat you should be cycling these anyway and you will gain massive extra hull healing.
This template has a very high EHP to survive alpha strikes and give you time to react
This template has massive automatic healing per second every second which kicks in before you get chance to react which helps keep you alive.
Not got time to run the math but you heal something like 20,000 to 40,000 if not more per second on top of the massive EHP.
DPS Pets are not that good for PvP as they cannot hit Zipcorts, though they are good against none Zipcorts. Consider support pets or healing pets.
This is how I tend to start my builds off with a core template. Then I start swapping bits in and out to fit what ever theme or style I am playing. For example, if I have a ship with more sci slots I fit extra Pax Nanite-Reinforced Circuitry. If I am using a torp boat I fit the torp cooldown consoles.
Traits
As far as I remember none of these traits are expensive or hard to get at least at the point I brought them. After weapons there should still be a good 150millon left in the budget or at least 100million. I don’t have time to double check them so if it turns out I missed an expensive one remove it as none of these are essential. From memory almost all of these are cheap on the exchange or from easy to get Reputation. Though prices change all the time so perhaps some have gone up in price. Prioritize the ones that give bonus resistance. 10% Bonus resistance is massively better then 10% resistance.
Personal Space
Techie or Superior Techie
Repair Crews
Particle Defence Specialist
Living Hull
Impact Defence Specialist
Grace Under Fire (I play Engineer)
Bulkhead Technician
Enlightened
Give Your All (I don’t use this as I don’t use active healing, if you use active healing this is a must have as Dodge is amazing. If you use active healing look at things like biopatch)
Space Reputation
Aux Power Config
Destabilizing Phase Array
Hull Repairing Nanites
Advanced Hull Reinforcement
Fortified Hull.
Lastly for Specialization I use Command + Miracle Worker for the free passive healing and extra EHP. For new PvP people learning I would use Temporal Primary for Continuity
@pottsey5g, actually i don't advice zombie builds, you might be able to deny a single person a kill but then a second one joins and they wear your harmless ship down.
If you are interested i can help you turn your Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier T6 into a weapon of war
@pottsey5g, actually i don't advice zombie builds, you might be able to deny a single person a kill but then a second one joins and they wear your harmless ship down.
If you are interested i can help you turn your Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier T6 into a weapon of war
Thanks for the offer but that is not what I use myself. That's what I designed as a budget build so new PvPers can survive long enough to learn the basics and built to the restraints put to me in the challenge. My own build is tougher and can at times survive 2 or 3 people shooting me while putting out DPS myself. Buts its doesnt remotely fit into the budget challenge.
Not that I care, but your build is missing one entire category, that is often the single most expensive portion of builds: the starship traits.
They are not needed for the build to work so just fit what ever goes in there to match which every playstyle/weapon system you choose. If you have something that helps tank fit it or if you prefer add DPS traits. If you have access Honored Dead would be recommended. I am a Carrier so Superior Area of Denial but those are outside of budget builds. I like Reverberation but its useless to many builds. Lots of people like Invincible but its not needed and way over budget. Protomatter Matric Infuser+ Hull Image Refractors + cycling bridge powers for temporary hitpoints and healing is the key part of the build.
There is room for improvement and many better things that could be swapped in if budget allows.
EDIT: An alternative that might suit some people better. Non-Baryonic Matter Deflector, Mycelial warp core, Prevailing Fort Resilient Shield array and then a Competitive Engine or Terran Task Force Engine. (By Competitive Engine I mean Prevailing Innervated for this build though some of the others might be better depending on which bridge officer powers you use)
It's fascinating how triggered people are by this topic.
Like many players, I only really do PVP when it comes up as the endeavour, and I do kind of enjoy it in small doses, but one thing that nearly always happens is that the matches are hugely unbalanced and one team crushes the other 15-0 or close to it, even without any PVP ships in the mix. New players quickly come away with these negative experiences and want nothing more to do with PVP. The problem is that PVP in this game is inherently unbalanced because there is such a huge gap in capability between the average players and the top tier and they all get thrown in together. Maybe if they had introduced some sort of ranking system back in the early days... oh well, probably too late for that now.
Yeah the best Endeavor Arena matches are those that have a mix of players on both sides. Even still it could be greatly improved if the system didn't essentially reward players for repeatably destroying the weakest players on the other team. Having a system where as the match progresses a players performance determines the value of destroying them to the team victory conditions would be great.
Another thing players themselves can do is join the solo/duo queue rather than the standard one that allows pre-arranged teams. Of course most do the opposite, which goes to the biggest problem, player ignorance. It's ignorance more than lack of access to gear/traits etc that separates the good from the bad in STO PvP.
i even created capable pvp build for new alts and f2p beginners that would help them participate in team pvp without being the weak part which everyone focus but assists the team and be effective.
Indeed, it would be great to see some of your builds complete with skill tree, consoles, traits etc. versus the exchange of "tribal knowledge" in-game, regardless of budget.
Perhaps post them in the appropriate sub-forum and then those with interest would have something to work towards.
Surely with all things being equal it's piloting that counts in the end.
PvP used to be still fun about 6 years ago. Back then, even with some of the crazy consoles around, it wasn't all DPS and one hit kills. A specialized science build could stand toe to toe with a vape build. They they reworked the captain skills, and in the process hiked up science resistance, and rewarded players who took DPS to the extremes. Now, there is no going back unless they put some teeth back into science skills.
PvP used to be still fun about 6 years ago. Back then, even with some of the crazy consoles around, it wasn't all DPS and one hit kills. A specialized science build could stand toe to toe with a vape build. They they reworked the captain skills, and in the process hiked up science resistance, and rewarded players who took DPS to the extremes. Now, there is no going back unless they put some teeth back into science skills.
Science skills are right up there at the top and very popular in PvP. When I was in the open PvP zone on Sunday there was a decent amount of Sci builds standing toe to toe with the vape builds. There seems to be a pretty good balance of ships now not 90% vape builds any more. There was this one person in a Temporal Dreadnought I think it was who only died once in 25mins of almost none stop combat with multiple vape builds taking part. Sunday could have been one of the best PvP fights I had. According to my 30min combat log the top DPSer was the Sci builds beating all the vapers.
From what I was seeing sci builds didn't just stand toe to toe but did better then the vape builds that day.
The colony consoles balanced out the Vape builds that take DPS to the extremes and run no defense. Vape builds are still good but no longer dominate as the only useable build. PvP has not been DPS and 1 hit kills for a few years now. I also felt like the Vape pilots liked working alongside the Sci pilots as the two complimented each other.
> So are you ACTUALLY interested in getting new people to PvP or are you not?
I am not, i am interested in helping those who already have an interest to pvp, to help them improve, it will take both time and effort. I also want to help those who during a pvp endevour float around hoplelessly, to help them make a ship that can fight back, thats all.
>all you PvP folks have absolutely ZERO interest in helping new and struggling people get into PvP. So...put up or shut up already.
what you wrote doesn't make sense
>specifically said that the barrier of entry is too damn high and your response is a MILLION refined dil "budget" build...which is NOT A BUDGET BUILD if they don't spend real money.
You don't have to spend real money, only delithium and it could take some months, that is true. It is budged because it only costs f2p accessible things within range of grab, We are talking 2-3 hours per day and some patience for those who want to have some capable pvp ship, that is, if you are starting fresh. Most folks however already have some acquired goods, 4-5 alts pumping delithium, so whats the problem ? Are you a fresh new player ?
>Telling somebody who has not had a good experience with PvP or just trying it out that it will be okay once they spend some real life money WILL NOT be a good selling point.
I am not doing a selling point, you have nothing i need. It will make me happy to help those already interested in pvp thats all.
> So...yeah...no really, come up with a build that works within the limits I told you or just shut up already. All you are showing off is that PvP players are arrogant a-holes who now can't even READ it seems. You are making people who like PvP look bad.
This is your opinion. I have been planning a simplified version of my budged build that requires less attention for some time, will add a quick link to my signature, to help the ones who are already interested.
And btw, i almost never read/post on topics that are irreverent to me, so why bother even read this topic if you are completely uninterested in pvp ?
Comments
You seemed to be talking about "vape killed repeatedly, with no way to stop it." not spawn camping.
The solution I gave you solves the problem in your quote for normal PvP outside of spawn camping. With spawn camping EHP + my other solution works. My solution solves the reaction time problem for normal PvP where a cloaked vipe build comes out and Alpha strikes you before you get chance to respond while you are flying around the map. My solution stops you being killed in 2 seconds none stop in a normal honest fight.
Challenge accepted although I would point when I said my previous comments I was talking cheap on EC not dill. Not 100% sure how close I can hit that refined dil but I will see what I can do. Are Cstore or event ships acceptable? Reasonably priced Cstore ships not the legendry. How are we handling the free reputation store vouchers dill does that come out of 200k refined? Or is it 200k refined + reputation store vouchers after hitting tier 6/recruit. I also have a 15% dill discount for reputation store items and will use that discount if that's ok.
Sure, if you want to build a STO character, you might as well spend your dilithium instead of saving it for winter, if you are too impatient to wait for that long to see the end results, you could skip a movie and a cheeseburger at the mall and speed up the process (optional ofc)
For example “And every piece of advice I was given on "how to survive getting hit by a vape build" fell into one of four categories:” or “but every single piece of advice I got for how to survive alpha-strike vapes was either not effective,” “And this with a well-above-average PVE build. But it didn't matter what else I had because I did not have the one magical thing that allows surviving a vape strike.”
E.c.t so you were talking about a problem surviving vape strikes and I tried to offer you advice and methods to survive vape strikes. It’s proven that surviving vape strikes is possible without to much trouble in normal honest PvP fights. Now all of a sudden you are not talking vape strikes but spawn camping. That a massive difference and entirely different thing.
So are you or are you not having problems surviving vape strikes in normal honest PvP without spawn camping? How come my build works for most other people? If the build works for 9 players out of 10 then the problem tends to suggest that 1 person is doing something wrong. Surviving vape strikes is possible to do pretty consistently so if that is your problem all I am trying to do is help by offering solutions that have been proven to work.
If we are talking toxic players and spawn camping well the only option it to stack up large amount of EHP and move out the way. Ideally the devs need to make some minor changes. Two solutions to spawn camping that I have seen in other PvP games is you give the person who spawns a x second immunity so they get chance to move away and to do something. Plus randomize the spawn point. I don’t understand why team A is randomized and team B is fixed.
Yet I can easily demonstrate builds that are not high end from an EC point of view with plenty of durability that will survive without high end traits. Proving what you are saying is wrong. I have already posted 2 solutions and will post a more detailed build later or two this weekend.
Have you stopped to think that just perhaps the problem is a bad build and not that the other person is doing something unbalanced? So far I have not seen many real legitimate issue from you. Outside of spawn camping which I agree is toxic. You seem to be blaming everyone and everything else. Other players with decent mid-range builds in normal honest PvP are not having any problems. If anyone dares point out they are doing ok without expensive traits you throw toxic comments at them.
The most expensive item I listed is around 8million which is cheap. The rest of the items are store items so even cheaper. Just what is so expensive about that?
50% resting resistance is rather poor. You spend all this time saying it’s not the build then you post what is a low stat. My sitting resistance is almost 20% higher than yours with nothing rare. This is not about boasting this is to point out how 50% sitting is not that high. You never posted your EHP but given your low sitting resistance I expect your EHP in a sitting situation is also very low. You say very little of it is cheap but that is not true. Most of it is very cheap from an EC cost point of view. This is what I mean by you keep spreading misinformation.
I never contradicted myself everything I listed is relatively cheap and massively below your made up 750million figure. How is effective hitpoitns unbalanced. Why is it? effective hitpoint buffers are a core part of normal everyday life in most forms of PvP across most games that have PvP. Its part of balanced normal gameplay. Having a buffer is not grossly unbalanced. It’s the opposite as it’s a good balance put in place to counter viper builds and counter other problems.
There you go again turning a none negative comment into a negative. So, you can insult other peoples builds without reason and without seeing them. You can brag how high end your build is. You can insult other players and thrown toxic comments at them. But as soon as someone points out a flaw in your build and how that might be part of the problem you see that as attacking! I am not attacking your build. The problem here is you seem to see the worst in everything and see attacks that are not attacks. Proving my point again. Blaming everyone and everything else.
You have nothing to prove but if your build is failing time and time again and other peoples build are not failing using basic everyday items. Then it’s time to stop blaming the other players like you are. Stop throwing toxic comments at other players because your build is failing. It’s not our fault.
That’s not true, throughout this thread you have multiple times said the opposite to what I am doing. There are more then enough quotes where I offered solutions, changes to improve PvP and I never once doubled down on tried excuses. You just don’t like what I am saying so you are putting a fake toxic negative spin on everything.
None of that has to be the case as all of that is fixable and solvable in game now without high end traits or rare gear. You don’t have to get killed in a single shot without time to react or use uber traits. If you are then there is something wrong with the build. You don’t have to use high end/uber traits or spend mass amounts of EC. But every time someone tried to point this out, all we get is you posting toxic comments back at us and then you just flat out refuse to listen while accusing everyone else of dismissing everything, while you yourself are dismissing what we are trying to say to help. Its very clear you don’t care. Well I do care and will keep trying to help people by showing how it can be solved with current in game items.
I dismissed that statement as its 100% false, not true and just a toxic comment from you. Just because I dismissed your toxic comment it doesn’t mean I am blanket dismissing everything.
You’re in interpretation of events is shocking negative and wrong. I am demonstrating the opposite to what you say.
More toxic attitude. My comment wasn’t a measuring contest it was to prove I am not what you say I am. Why do you have to put such a massive negative spin on everything? This isn’t a competition to see who is better, this is not a PvP match. This is about solving the problems people have in PvP. Unlike you I am offering valid workable solutions.
I don’t have time tonight but I am going to come back this weekend and post a budget build or two without rare traits that doesn’t cost much EC and doesn't 1 shot die to prove what I am saying. Hopefully this will help a number of people. You can refuse to listen as much as you like. I am still going to try to help people despite the negative attitude of people like you.
1000x500= 500 000 delithium
so i think my math is ok, again, i am not saying that you should skip a cheeseburger
>>You OBVIOUSLY don't care about getting new people to PvP and you are one of the toxic ones who just wants more punching bags so you can show off your e-peen because your real one is tiny.
Yeah i took my time to create a guide for those who actually want/are inclined to pvp and help them not being punching bags, but i am the toxic dude with the tiny thing
As a former PvP player, who retired several years ago, it does truly sadden me to see how the PvP community has de-evolved. Didnt use to be like this.
Sadly Cold, apart from maybe one or two, I dont think there are truly any decent PvP community members left. A part of me, wouldnt mind if it faded away completely.
Another part of me, thinks that if PvP were to be revived, it would need to be in a format of pre-assigned ships, a bank of gear traits & skills. Standard slate across the board, with no one having access to any of their 'goods' their account has. That way, if someone new wanted to give PvP a try, that wouldn't need to farm for months or dig into their pockets in any big way, if at all.
Though that would require the design of a completely new system. With Cryptic's staffing levels, the % of the population who still plays PvP on the regular as well as the return of investment (Cryptic would need to essentially give up any return at all (yeah i know not happening) i might as well ask Santa for a 747.
@darkbladejk Sorry to hear about your pretty nasty experiences with PvP. May i ask if you were around in the game in 2011 - mid 2013?
it does feel like most devs moved on to other projects years ago :P
Like many players, I only really do PVP when it comes up as the endeavour, and I do kind of enjoy it in small doses, but one thing that nearly always happens is that the matches are hugely unbalanced and one team crushes the other 15-0 or close to it, even without any PVP ships in the mix. New players quickly come away with these negative experiences and want nothing more to do with PVP. The problem is that PVP in this game is inherently unbalanced because there is such a huge gap in capability between the average players and the top tier and they all get thrown in together. Maybe if they had introduced some sort of ranking system back in the early days... oh well, probably too late for that now.
But I respawn
I am duranium!
Not forgot about your challenge its half done. Hoping to have time to finish it tomorrow. Its looking like one build is just going be over while the other version is just within.
Depending on options chosen that’s 162.5k at the low end within budget and 250k at the high end a little over budget. Both without the discounts. Ideally the new player has started with a recruit event, not essential but it would help for all the free boosts like better pre upgraded store gear.
Not going into weapons as there is plenty of EC left leaving people to choose whatever style they prefer. Similarly Bridge Officers powers it all comes down to the style of play you have. Personally, I don’t take healing powers though I do have Reverse Shield Polarity (RSP 3). Not always but sometimes I decided to fit a Voth Power Core at which point I swap in EPtS3 as with Endeavours + skill points its pretty easy to get up near max shield resistance which has a large increase in total EHP helping survive Alpha Strikes. Normally I take EptE1 to use alongside Evasive Maneuvers.
Bridge Officers all humans for the extra free healing. Every little help.
Doffs
Other Stuff
This is how I tend to start my builds off with a core template. Then I start swapping bits in and out to fit what ever theme or style I am playing. For example, if I have a ship with more sci slots I fit extra Pax Nanite-Reinforced Circuitry. If I am using a torp boat I fit the torp cooldown consoles.
Traits
As far as I remember none of these traits are expensive or hard to get at least at the point I brought them. After weapons there should still be a good 150millon left in the budget or at least 100million. I don’t have time to double check them so if it turns out I missed an expensive one remove it as none of these are essential. From memory almost all of these are cheap on the exchange or from easy to get Reputation. Though prices change all the time so perhaps some have gone up in price. Prioritize the ones that give bonus resistance. 10% Bonus resistance is massively better then 10% resistance.
Personal Space
Techie or Superior Techie
Repair Crews
Particle Defence Specialist
Living Hull
Impact Defence Specialist
Grace Under Fire (I play Engineer)
Bulkhead Technician
Enlightened
Give Your All (I don’t use this as I don’t use active healing, if you use active healing this is a must have as Dodge is amazing. If you use active healing look at things like biopatch)
Space Reputation
Aux Power Config
Destabilizing Phase Array
Hull Repairing Nanites
Advanced Hull Reinforcement
Fortified Hull.
Lastly for Specialization I use Command + Miracle Worker for the free passive healing and extra EHP. For new PvP people learning I would use Temporal Primary for Continuity
If you are interested i can help you turn your Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier T6 into a weapon of war
contact me in game @vanhyo
There is room for improvement and many better things that could be swapped in if budget allows.
EDIT: An alternative that might suit some people better. Non-Baryonic Matter Deflector, Mycelial warp core, Prevailing Fort Resilient Shield array and then a Competitive Engine or Terran Task Force Engine. (By Competitive Engine I mean Prevailing Innervated for this build though some of the others might be better depending on which bridge officer powers you use)
Yeah the best Endeavor Arena matches are those that have a mix of players on both sides. Even still it could be greatly improved if the system didn't essentially reward players for repeatably destroying the weakest players on the other team. Having a system where as the match progresses a players performance determines the value of destroying them to the team victory conditions would be great.
Another thing players themselves can do is join the solo/duo queue rather than the standard one that allows pre-arranged teams. Of course most do the opposite, which goes to the biggest problem, player ignorance. It's ignorance more than lack of access to gear/traits etc that separates the good from the bad in STO PvP.
Indeed, it would be great to see some of your builds complete with skill tree, consoles, traits etc. versus the exchange of "tribal knowledge" in-game, regardless of budget.
Perhaps post them in the appropriate sub-forum and then those with interest would have something to work towards.
Surely with all things being equal it's piloting that counts in the end.
From what I was seeing sci builds didn't just stand toe to toe but did better then the vape builds that day.
The colony consoles balanced out the Vape builds that take DPS to the extremes and run no defense. Vape builds are still good but no longer dominate as the only useable build. PvP has not been DPS and 1 hit kills for a few years now. I also felt like the Vape pilots liked working alongside the Sci pilots as the two complimented each other.
> If you have a better build within the budget, please do share instead of trying to keep it a secret.
is my signature not visible ?
I am not, i am interested in helping those who already have an interest to pvp, to help them improve, it will take both time and effort. I also want to help those who during a pvp endevour float around hoplelessly, to help them make a ship that can fight back, thats all.
>all you PvP folks have absolutely ZERO interest in helping new and struggling people get into PvP. So...put up or shut up already.
what you wrote doesn't make sense
>specifically said that the barrier of entry is too damn high and your response is a MILLION refined dil "budget" build...which is NOT A BUDGET BUILD if they don't spend real money.
You don't have to spend real money, only delithium and it could take some months, that is true. It is budged because it only costs f2p accessible things within range of grab, We are talking 2-3 hours per day and some patience for those who want to have some capable pvp ship, that is, if you are starting fresh. Most folks however already have some acquired goods, 4-5 alts pumping delithium, so whats the problem ? Are you a fresh new player ?
>Telling somebody who has not had a good experience with PvP or just trying it out that it will be okay once they spend some real life money WILL NOT be a good selling point.
I am not doing a selling point, you have nothing i need. It will make me happy to help those already interested in pvp thats all.
> So...yeah...no really, come up with a build that works within the limits I told you or just shut up already. All you are showing off is that PvP players are arrogant a-holes who now can't even READ it seems. You are making people who like PvP look bad.
This is your opinion. I have been planning a simplified version of my budged build that requires less attention for some time, will add a quick link to my signature, to help the ones who are already interested.
And btw, i almost never read/post on topics that are irreverent to me, so why bother even read this topic if you are completely uninterested in pvp ?