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PvP... its not dead, its full
vanhyo
Member Posts: 253 Arc User
Post edited by rattler2 on
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It exists... but its kinda just... there.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
^^ This.
The term alive is open to interpretation.
I hate to burst your bubble but you're coming off a universal endeavor that wanted folks to participate in the pvp queues. Anytime that happens you will see a temporary boost in pvp participation which will quickly vanish once the endeavor has cycled. You may also see the occasional ker'rat instance get full but that's not as common either. The average map instance only holds 20-50 people depending on the map. I hardly call 20-50 people being "alive" but you're welcome to your interpretation of it.
Does it exist, certainly. Does it function, yes. Is it a major part of the game, absolutely not. If you're going to use Ker'rat to say pvp is doing well for the entirety of the game, you're actually shooting yourself in the foot. Also you're talking 1 map with 1-2 instances at most that are full. Compare that to the MANY MANY other pve instances that stay full all the time. At best ker'rat represents maybe half of one percent of the entire game's population. If you enjoy pvp as you clearly do, then that's great that you found a game mode you can enjoy. However you will find that most of the game by and large does not share your sentiment for better or worse. If you want to do pvp that's fine, but you're not going to convince very many in this game to join you.
If folks have interest in pvp they will seek it out on their own, maybe ask about how to get into contact with some pvp players, but that's generally it. I gave up pvp years ago because the atmosphere around it was just way too toxic for my book. Often times it brings out the worst in people. If I want pvp I will seek it out. Otherwise that game mode is dead to me.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Also, fire is cold, water is dry, west is the opposite of south and this thread isn't hilarious.
no update...ever...literally, there has never been an update like a new map, unless you consider that one faction grind and mission where you shoot at other player at the end an update to PVP. (Also, probably has the longest queue anyway)
balancing, I beg your pardon
General player base...large part of the player base in this game is here for the cosplay...not for the competition.
PvP is never going to be massive in this game but if it just had a bit of work on it and some decent content it could be much larger then it is.
The indirect PvP mechanics race is honestly IMO kinda clever. It makes players think about what they're doing instead of blind DPSing anything hostile. Which, again IMO, is something we actually need.
The problem came from the fact that PvP is not a major area for this game, and the game is balanced for PvE. And how do we build ships? To deal with NPCs with much larger HP pools than players. What happens when you turn that PvE build against a player with a fraction of that HP Pool? Vaporized before they can react.
Competative Rep was probably one attempt at reviving at least some interest in PvP, but again... we're balanced for PvE, and any kind of direct PvP ends up extremely unbalanced. Could end up with one team of Vape Builds while the other is a group of casuals. Unfortunately that's just how our queue system works. Its random. It doesn't sort through gear or anything to determine balancing teams. It just fills slots.
So realistically... STO as it stands now is never going to be a real PvP powerhouse because of the PvE Balancing. The game was never set up from the beginning to support two different sets of stats to balance PvE and PvP. And with each passing year, that becomes more and more difficult. Maybe on Day One of STO there was balance. Maybe the first couple years there was balance. But after that... people figured out the system, and we've had bigger and bigger sponges and players built accordingly. Unless Cryptic goes deep under the hood to try and work out some means of a PvP balance... the only source of balance will have to come from players agreeing to rules in a preset environment agreed upon by participating players. Not any queued content like a TFO.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Oh, they self-sabotaged it alright. But not at the onset, but right after nobody was willing to do the PvP queues. Then they introduced a massive, multi-marks event (where you had to defend some station, not Pahvo), where ppl like yours truly could amass over 6,000 Comp marks (and a daily Project to get the Elite marks). And the players loved it!
I remember a certain Patrick on the forum, foaming around the mouth because of this gross betrayal by Cryptic. Me, I simply saw it as them finally acknowledging that PvP was, indeed, dead. And there was much rejoicing.
Assuming I did want to to revitalize my interest in pvp, what exactly is my motivation to participate? What do I gain out of it? trying to pigeonhole people into it or force them into it is an automatic no go. I also never participate in universal pvp endeavors as I would rather be fired out of a torpedo tube at warp 10 towards a borg cube as I slowly turn into a giant salamander than partake in any of those queues. I have nothing to prove to anyone either. If I want pvp at this point I'll go play CoD or Smite.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
If the pvp is lousy/unbalanced/unrewarding, having a couple different maps to do it on isn't that big a difference.
>The impression I got was the Devs added those terribly designed competitive PvP maps that players pretty much universally >disliked. Then as players disliked it and didn't play it the devs mistakenly wrote off PvP as not being liked or wanted. The real >problem was the badly deigned competitive PvP content not that players didn't want new/more PvP content.
Interesting, actually i think you have a good point there, i mostly disliked both competitive ques.
@pottsey5g
PvP is never going to be massive in this game but if it just had a bit of work on it and some decent content it could be much larger then it is.
It doesn't need a big pvp patches and redesings, just something small but clever.
@darkbladejk
>People need to understand that it's literally impossible to balance pvp with how the game is right now. you must have >complete separation of pvp and pve content. Meaning modifiers on abilities so it does one thing in pvp and another in pve. >thus you can balance both sides without effecting the other.
Apart from few cancerous things, pvp is nearly balanced, it doesn't need much in terms of balance. If Cryptic are interested in improving balance, they should observe those who pvp at regular basis and maybe ask tips from them.
@pottsey5g
>Some of the relatively simple things they could do is just to make some more maps. A few more arenas and 1 or 2 more ker'rat >like areas. That alone would go a long way. Not all content should be designed for all players and not all content should be >built around the biggest group of players. That's how you drive players away from a game.
I like the idea, there are existing prototype maps that can be used for this, just copy/paste/insert the ker'rat coding into them, make sure that there is only one shared pvp zone per day and it is known to the players. There are players who are interested in some skirmish pvp but don't know the shared pvp zones exist.
And that is pretty much enough to do things right.
@spielman1
>Yeah don't get me wrong little things can go along way but at the same time no matter how you cut it they will have to make >changes some small like maps arenas and such but also big ones like DPS issue separation of the two play stylesand the >various other big issues they will popular and unpopular at the same time.
There is no dps issue, pvp players usually have much higher mitigation than NPCs (just to give you a hint some folks run with ~87%~ all resist values, shield hardening can also be made to a very high value) not only that but would heal from 0 to 100 in 6-7 seconds regularly if not more often, not mentioning the emergency heals, temporal HP that effectively doubles and sometimes triples the amount of hull, then comes the can't die things, the escape clicks, the immunity clicks, the can't be targeted clicks, and so on and so on.
Mr nightshadow show us some of his play
this is how pvp, done by pvp players looks like
At one point we had enough actual PvP fleets and teams that we ran our own tournaments and leagues. Those days are long over. Its sad too STO had the bones of a great esports game (no I'm not insane or dreaming). Had Cryptic leaned into that back in the day... and introduced a proper PvP ship doll and restrictions on PvE gear... balancing a PvP system. I completely believe Cryptic could have had a strong following. Strong IP coupled with a balanced team PvP game they could have made a ton of money with damn near zero work. The core was already their all they had to do was protect it from the rest of the game.
Anyway that isn't what happened... and its probably far to late now. Kerat still has the odd battle break out. However the issues are still the same as they have been for years now. If your new to PvP or you have your perfectly tweaked PvE build... you might have fun if you fight people in the same boat. However the handful of people still holding out for a PvP return who have tuned builds for what PvP there is.... we're probably going to kill you a lot and never be in any danger at all from your PvE boat. PvP has always been pretty unfun for people going up against PvP vets... PvP is dead today because even if someone is willing to be a punching bag for a bit to learn. When they realize they need massive amounts of game resources and or potentially a bunch of real $ to even get close competitive... spending that on things that are basically useless outside of PvP. Well not many people are that dedicated. (same happens when some of those old vets return to the game after being away for years... they realize how much grind they have to do just to enjoy the few potential hours of PvP fun that happen in a week and tap out)
>When will you accept that enticing NEW players into PVP is a dead concept? Just go play in your little sandbox.
Speak for yourself and do not assert for others.
Little more than a year ago when i came back to STO i had nothing, knew nothing, and everything was some dark secret impossible alchemy to me, i manage overcome this on a f2p account, collecting the free gifts cryptics handle from time to time and studying the game, this game have a very deep character building/learning curve, so it takes alot of time, trial and error.
Today i am very happy with how far i got, i even created capable pvp build for new alts and f2p beginners that would help them participate in team pvp without being the weak part which everyone focus but assists the team and be effective.
So you can take your defeatist attitude and keep it to yourself.
I MISS that game so much. When we could team... and teams needed to have roll players, needed to share buffs... needed to react when the other team did. Most importantly when we could count buffs. I miss being able to say ok X players alpha is coming up in 10s... Y player has burned their own buffs prepare target switch in 10s. Rapid switch targets draw out their team heals on Y and we switch to X half way through our Alpha. This game used to require tactics... and team PvP wasn't just FUN but cerebral.
That game was destroyed long ago... but every cool down dropping to global, by buff bars to infinity... and multiple click consoles and save traits. Never mind some of the newer brain dead things like Hull image console that allows me to buff my Temp hull to 150k+ on a Vape build before I even drop my cloak.
It will never happen but ideally Cryptic would create a PvP ship doll... allow it to only slot Free PvP gear. Disable ship traits, and even doffs... and in a perfect setup even have a PVP captain trait rack with nothing but a handful of approved traits.
Yes the game would be slower, a lot slower... it would be much more like it was in year 2 or 3. It would for sure make team PvP possible again... and dare I say it might actually be fun. Will never happen but it would glorious... and new PvPers wouldn't even have to grind like gold farmers for months just to try it.
Its been the main issue since Cryptic started power creeping the core game 8 or 9 years back already. For the first few years when people complained about blowing up real good or no being able to catch that zoomy PvP ship. We as PvPers could laugh and say hey its all build know how and skill... and most of us could get new players to hang around and learn the ropes.
For a long time its been gimmicks and knowing which useless for PvE traits, gear even ships where the ticket. Yes its possible for someone to learn what is what, think about PvP and not PvE and gear themselves. Its just not cheap or something you can have a kind PvPer help you with over the course of an hour and get you ship shape. I also miss the old days where I could help a new player out and after an hour or two have them playing at least somewhat effective. To take a new player today and try and walk them through and get them up to speed today.... lol You want X and Y and Z... and why didn't you die there when you where at zero... oh that comes from Zhal and no one PvPs without it. (emm hmm you need to buy a ship just for a trait you won't use in PvE) OH wait I managed to get you to zero and almost had you again but then I couldn't target you... oh that was the screen console from this other ship. lmao
Its easy to see why so few new faces show up to PvP for real.
Guys... a few less shots please. You can agree to disagree without lashing out at each other. One person's experience with PvP can, and WILL, be different from another's.
West's experience was negative, and that is going to be true of a lot of people, myself included. While I have had some decent fights, most of the time my PvE build can't keep up with the PvPers.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode