Alien Biology and lighting

legendarylycan · April 2021

So, this is kind of a long shot, because even though this is a Star Trek-based forum, I'm not sure if anyone will actually have knowledge of this, but I'll ask anyway and maybe get lucky.

Suppose you have a habitable planet orbiting a class K5 star (Which, if I got everything right, should be a yellow-orangeish dwarf halfway between the hottest and coolest levels given for stars.) - what would lighting - like, color and hue and such - be like on a habitable planet orbiting such a star for us humans, and how would things change for an alien species who can't see in the red spectrum (And presumably, any color blend that requires red as well, like orange.), like dogs? (Yes, dogs are in fact not totally color-blind.)

jonsills · April 2021

Why would they not be able to see red? Sol is a yellow dwarf, but we can see yellow just fine.

It's long been my headcanon that Qo'noS orbits a K-class star, given the lighting levels of Klingon ships (uncomfortably dim for most of us) and their tendency toward wearing furs everywhere.

legendarylycan · April 2021

I don't even know why canines can't see in the red spectrum - probably something to do with the way their eyes are designed.

angrytarg · April 2021

shadowfang240 wrote: »

I don't even know why canines can't see in the red spectrum - probably something to do with the way their eyes are designed.

It's not just canines, the majority of mammals are only able to see dichromatic due tot he fact that they just have 2 types of cones "blue" and "green" ones (photoreceptor cells in the eyes). Humans are a big exception here, since their cones for seeing "green" supposedly duplicated due to mutation and one of those shifted towards the "red". Reptiles and birds are the ones that can see all the colours.

legendarylycan · April 2021

Well, that still doesn't answer my original question of how a species that's dichromatic like that would see light on a world orbiting such a star, since it would be emitting orange-yellow light (I think?) and not being able to see red logically should also mean not being able to see orange (I have no idea if it actually works that way, though - I don't know how spectrum blindness actually works, since I don't have it...at least not to the point I can't see certain colors - I found out via a test I can't see certain SHADES of colors very well, but I can see all the colors just fine) - though, filtering out the orange would still leave the yellow, which would probably make the planet basically light up like Earth, if a bit dimmer?

I suppose the composition of the atmosphere of the hypothetical habitable planet would also factor into that.

angrytarg · April 2021

I'd guess you are right, the yellow would remain and it should also be dim since the red light would be basically no light for them. When working with or around nocturnal mammals, caretakers usually work under red light because it's practically invisible to the animals and doesn't disturb them. So those aliens should be unable to distinguish lots of hues between colours and are blind to red light, resulting in Orange light being seen as very dim yellow. So caitians have no idea what 'red alert' is supposed to look like 😂

legendarylycan · April 2021

Oh TRIBBLE, I didn't even think about what red alert would be like for such a species...obviously, it wouldn't be a red color, but I'm unsure what color would take its place - if we were dealing with aliens whose biology were in any way similar to Earth bees or wasps, any dark color would work, as those types of insects consider such colors as being a potential sign of predators.

So, I'm wondering - is there any color that can be made from green and yellow that would be considered 'aggressive' or a general sign of danger the same way red is?

jonsills · April 2021

shadowfang240 wrote: »

Oh TRIBBLE, I didn't even think about what red alert would be like for such a species...obviously, it wouldn't be a red color, but I'm unsure what color would take its place - if we were dealing with aliens whose biology were in any way similar to Earth bees or wasps, any dark color would work, as those types of insects consider such colors as being a potential sign of predators.

So, I'm wondering - is there any color that can be made from green and yellow that would be considered 'aggressive' or a general sign of danger the same way red is?

Depends on what the predators of that world look like. We consider "red" a danger color because that's the color of human blood, and seeing blood is generally not a good sign. Yellow-and-black is considered dangerous because that color combination stands out, and anything sporting it in the wild is either toxic or potentially lethal in its own right (tigers, yellowjackets, some species of wasp).

Black wouldn't work, because black is simply the absence of light/color; something that uses ultraviolet to see (as some terrestrial insects) could have an alert color that we simply can't see, because something dangerous on their homeworld fluoresces in that frequency.

legendarylycan · April 2021

Well, in my hypothetical case, it'd be Earth-based Humans mutated by an alien retrovirus into a canid form - hence wondering what sort of color could be used in place of red, as they'd be sharing that particular bit of canine biology.

phoenixc · April 2021

An oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere tends to scatter blue light more than red, so the sky looks blue in the day and some of the blue light leaks over into the night side (which is probably why dogs can see it, it helps with getting around at night if they have to).

To humans the surface at high noon would probably look a little more like morning or evening light color-wise (at most) than it does on Earth but it probably would not be extremely noticeable. The color-temperature of daylight on Earth changes over the course of the day and people don't notice it a lot for instance unless they are watching the sunset or whatever. It definitely would not look like the red light they use on ships at night to preserve night vision or the red lights in a photographic darkroom, it wouldn't even be as strongly yellow-orange as one of those amber bug lights or fire light color wise.

My guess is that it might look dimmer to the people you talk about (unless they are more sensitive to the frequencies they do see) but pretty much the same as daylight looks to humans, especially since they cannot see the red component as a color (though they might be able to see it as luma brightening the scene if their version of rods can detect it, so daylight might not even be dimmer looking).

I thought about something similar quite a bit since my Star Trek character in Second Life was Orion and they have something like "bee vision" where their visual range is shifted so that they see into the ultraviolet range but lose the red range compared to human vision (it is not officially canon since they never went into Orions much in the various series or movies, but it was common in novels and has gained fanon status to the point where if Berman was still doing Trek it would probably be canonized eventually just like a lot of other fanon stuff was}.

That "bee vision" is based on some of the stars named (they seem to prefer hotter stars), and analysis of the color palettes used for Orions in the shows which hint that they probably cannot see red except as black or maybe gray (with perhaps some phantom perception of something more like UV lights sometimes seem to for humans), and probably have better perception at the higher frequencies.

It really depends on how exactly their retinas and brains perceive it though, and in sci-fi that can get rather complicated and crazy. Humans, and presumably the various aliens, don't see things directly but rather build a sort of virtual image in their heads based on sensory data (if you were seeing the raw visual data nothing would be stable because your eyes are always moving to collect data for the VR model).

A good example of really alien "vision" is the Vorta, they have poor eyesight but perceive the world around them more by sound than via their eyes. Just look at Weyoun when someone enters the room behind him, even when they are not talking he knows exactly were they are and pretty much what they are doing.

It is sort of like they have wide angle sonic eyes on the sides of their head like a lot of birds do with optical eyes (out to the limits of Vorta hearing range, which is probably rather long), along with a pair of secondary eyes giving them high definition close range optical information for their 'visual' VR to the front, sort of like the detail orientation of the fovea of human eyes in human vision. And while they are probably quite nearsighted optically they would probably be able to make out at least some movement further out too.

Edit: Somehow I was thinking of an F class instead of a K class star when I wrote the bit about what the daylight would look like to humans, so I corrected it.

angrytarg · April 2021

shadowfang240 wrote: »

Well, in my hypothetical case, it'd be Earth-based Humans mutated by an alien retrovirus into a canid form - hence wondering what sort of color could be used in place of red, as they'd be sharing that particular bit of canine biology.

Well, I don't know if it's aggressive, but most mammals see blue best. For instance, wildlife reflectors placed alongside roads to keep deer and others away are often blue. If light shines on them the blue flash is most visible to them, so a really bright blue could work as a "attention colour".

It bears the question whether a species which evolved from something which's vision isn't the best would design things to visually stand out or rather work more with sound or scent.

mneme0 · April 2021

In my experience most humans don't notice the difference between sitting in a room with a 6000K light and a 3000K light or a photo taken in either lighting until it is pointed out to them (at which point they argue with you), which is more than the difference between a G and a K star, and the lower overall luminosity of the K star may be mitigated by the planet orbiting closer to the K star to remain in the same climate zone. Unless the star is a brown dwarf, I doubt most humans would even notice a change in the color as compared with, say, sunset light on Earth or a crappy incandescent lightbulb.

qultuq · April 2021

Interesting questions. Like phoenix said—Despite a Star or planet type any planet with an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere should have a “blue” sky due to the way light would refract in an earth-like atmosphere. Even the Martian sky looks blue when you look towards the sun due to dust in the Martian air.

So the red sky of TOS Vulcan would likely be impossible. TOS did the sky effect by using colored stage lights because it was cheaper than matte painting every alien skyline.

I guess, by that logic Discovery also did something right by science. It bothered me that Vulcan’s sky looked very Earth-like in the S2 flashbacks. I think ST 2009‘a Vulcan had a blue sky too. I guess I assumed it was to reduce the effects budget of digitizing the sky.

legendarylycan · April 2021

So what everyone is basically saying is...if I were to ever create my own sci-fi-based IP and it somehow managed to become popular enough to get a screen adaption, I wouldn't need to do anything fancy with the lighting when developing scenes based on the planet orbiting the star I mentioned to keep it real world science-compliant, other than maybe have things a bit dimmer than similar scenes on Earth, and probably also avoid the use of red or red-blend based lighting anywhere with this alien species - after all, you would really use a color you can't actually see, yes?

Then again, maybe I don't even need to bother at all...I'd be setting such a thing about 200-ish years from now, and following with real-world science, in 200 years we'll probably be advanced enough in genetic manipulation that any form of color or spectrum blindness could probably be easily corrected.

jonsills · April 2021

In fact, Mars' sky is red(dish) because of the dust. Sunsets look blue, though.

As for Vulcan, 40 Eridani A is a K-type star; it's orbited at a respectable distance (about 400 AU) by B and C, a white dwarf and red M-type flare star respectively. They'd be unusually bright in Vulcan's sky, but would not significantly affect the process of evolution there.

I'm still not clear on why you're insisting on a sapient alien life form being unable to see the color red. What would be the evolutionary advantage to this? (Dogs have been bred by humans for thousands of years; as casual examination of a corgi or bulldog will reveal, evolution is no longer part of their development.)

legendarylycan · April 2021

Evolution doesn't come into play where artificially-created retroviruses are concerned - especially if that retrovirus isn't of terrestrial origin.

angrytarg · April 2021

Besides, it's also an exercise in creativity. Creating and imagining such a civilization while imposing some rules that are different than humans is just fun to do. I mean humans can't see the full spectrum, no evolutionary advantage to that either.

legendarylycan · April 2021

Actually, I've had another thought after some of the info related here. Do canines of any type have the ability to see in any spectrum Humans can't? I know a lot of breeds have a bit better vision in general, along with a sense of smell, but I've never actually seen anything stating one way or another if they can see in more spectrums.

angrytarg · April 2021

To my knowledge, no. To see different spectrums they would need different photoreceptor cells of which they only have two while humans have three. Im general, canines have compared to humans bad vision. In general they are short-sighted, can't differentiate hues and colours well and require twice as long as humans to adapt to shifting light conditions (coming from light into dark). What they are better at is night vision due to a reflective layer on the cornea which allows them to track motion better in dim light (at the exchange of being able to see detsils - short sightedness).

I'm not a vet or canine expert, but a woodland ecologist with wildlife biology background and years of animal caretaking experience (wildlife and domestic). So I'm not claiming my knowledge is complete, but I think I got the basics right.

Also interesting: Dedicated nocturnal predators often only have monochromatic vision, meaning they are fully colourblind (because everything is grey at night

) but can see in low light and track vision superbly.

Unknown · April 2021

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legendarylycan · April 2021

Dogs and wolves have poor eyesight? That's news to me - I always thought they had GREAT eyesight compared to Humans...of course, I also always thought they were fully colorblind too, up until about a year ago.

So how would a flashbang affect them, then?

qultuq · April 2021

> @westmetals said:
> I did recently see an article (I forget exactly where) on the camera systems on the Perserverance (Mars rover), where they specifically were talking about "tuning" the camera to show Mars as it would be seen by a human eye as opposed to photorealistic (because within the spectrum we can see, we actually see some colors stronger than others, while a traditional camera sees all colors equally).
>
> If you can find the article, might be an interesting read...

I think this might be the article, but my read on it is a little different. It is a little outside my normal interests though so it could be that I am not following it very well.

I think it is primarily talking about rendering images in ultraviolet and infrared scales in ways that are visually accessible to humans (If I am understanding it correctly).

https://www.wired.com/story/perseverances-eyes-see-a-different-mars/

It also says because there is less light on mars and less atmosphere:

“‘We talk about showing an approximate true color image, essentially close to a raw color image that we take with very minimal processing. That’s one version of what Mars would look like to a human eye,’ Rice says. ‘But the human eye evolved to see landscapes under Earth illumination. If we want to reproduce what Mars would look like to a human eye, we should be simulating Earth illumination conditions onto those Martian landscapes.’

So on the one hand, the image processing team working on Perseverance’s raw feed can adjust Mars colors to Earthish colors. Or the team can simulate the spectra of Martian light hitting objects on Mars. That’d look a little different. No less true, but maybe more like what a human on Mars would actually see. (There’s no telling what a Martian would see...’”

So I think it is not that the camera sees colors differently than humans but that Earth lighting and Mars lighting are different so you can add more Earth-like lighting or assume that if there was less red light in the atmosphere but a greater range of colors—you could adjust for that too.

More generally, there are also plenty of things that cameras can’t replicate about vision. One key example peripheral vision. Also the aperture of the lens will give you more panorama Than they eye—but as a solid image not in the peripheral way we see which is less clear more perceptive in the periphery.

Resolution and color information are generally significantly reduced in digital photography. That is to say we can collect light beyond human perception. But low resolution reduces the gradations. Even analog film which still has better resolution is lower than the 130 million pixel equivalent of the human eye.

This other article seems to have a pretty good discussion on the way cameras see things different than optics. But the discussion becomes increasingly metaphysical as he speculates about how we interpret the visual information we see.

https://petapixel.com/2012/11/17/the-camera-versus-the-human-eye/

qultuq · April 2021

> @shadowfang240 said:
> So what everyone is basically saying is...if I were to ever create my own sci-fi-based IP and it somehow managed to become popular enough to get a screen adaption, I wouldn't need to do anything fancy with the lighting when developing scenes based on the planet orbiting the star I mentioned to keep it real world science-compliant, other than maybe have things a bit dimmer than similar scenes on Earth, and probably also avoid the use of red or red-blend based lighting anywhere with this alien species - after all, you would really use a color you can't actually see, yes?
>

Well I mean those are just if we assume Star Trek limitations of the M-class planet Starfleet general order. We could imagine far more alien worlds like Titan or Europa or even Venus with potential life—but not as we know it. We could likewise speculate other things that could change the atmosphere...maybe some air-based red algae or something. The Goldilocks-planet theory of life limits our scientific quest for life as much as our science fiction quests maybe.

angrytarg · April 2021

shadowfang240 wrote: »

Dogs and wolves have poor eyesight? That's news to me - I always thought they had GREAT eyesight compared to Humans...of course, I also always thought they were fully colorblind too, up until about a year ago.

So how would a flashbang affect them, then?

Comparing biological skillsets is always difficult as of course there is no "better" or "worse" in terms of ecology. For their lifestyle, wolves' vision is better suited than a humans (their eyes are narrow to focus on fleeing prey and they can track better in dim light) but compared to a human environment wolves and dogs have worse vision (their 'night vision' causes light to scatter wider onto their retina causing them to be short-sighted, also it makes them worse at adapting to changing light) . That is because canines are visual generalists but specialize in smell and hearing which is much finer than a humans' (but their sense of smell is also less fine-tuned than a pigs' for instance).

So, since I am sure nobody has ever flashbanged a dog for science I'd extrapolate from their biological properties to this sci-fi scenario. And if I were to design such a species they'd be affected worse than a human from a flashbang: Their hearing is much more sensitive and the reflective layer of their cornea makes them more sensitive to dim light which means a flash would blind them much more.

Also, regarding their colours: They wouldn't wear red clothing on purpose, since red is black to them. But they could have discovered that supposed black clothing camouflages themselves well when they fight each other, but a human would maybe be surprised to find out that their "camo" is actually strong red and sucks when they try to sneak on a human in a green forest

legendarylycan · April 2021

So, I always get these mixed up - short-sighted means you see poorly at long distance, but good at short distance, right?

angrytarg · April 2021

shadowfang240 wrote: »

So, I always get these mixed up - short-sighted means you see poorly at long distance, but good at short distance, right?

Yes. How much is difficult to say since you can't do a reliable test of vision with a dog, but according to their eyes anatomy they should have a short-sightedness of around 30% (so they see about a third as sharp as someone with 'normal sight' would at a certain distance)

jonsills · April 2021

The Goldilocks Zone is simply that region around a star where a planet could potentially have water - closer in and it'd vaporize, further out and it'd freeze. That limits only the quest for Earthlike worlds; if you think that limits what we can imagine life evolving to fit, I commend James White's Sector General stories to you. (Patients at Galactic Sector Seven General Hospital are classified with a four-letter system; the first letter designates their atmospheric needs with a rough idea of how long they evolved before gaining sapience, the others have to do with temperature needs, number of limbs, sensory arrangements, and such. Humans are DBDG; Orligians and Nidians are also DBDG, despite resembling humans only in general shape. Dr. Conway, our viewpoint character, has friends on staff, including Dr. Prilicla, a GLNO creature resembling a cross between a butterfly and a spider. Prilicla's homeworld, Cinruss, is larger than Earth, but less dense, so it has a breathable atmosphere and very low gravity. Prilicla has to wear gravity nullifiers everywhere outside its quarters, so as not to be crushed. It is also a gifted neurosurgeon.)

Or the works of Larry Niven, which give us such nonstandard creatures as the bandersnatchi (found on Jinx, an Earth-size world orbiting a gas giant itself in orbit around Sirius A; the planet has a surface gravity of about 1.5g in the habitable zones. While it was cooling, it was much closer to its primary, so was stretched into an egg shape, but later pulled into a higher orbit. Its atmosphere, rather improbably, resumed a spherical shape, so its East and West Poles stretch completely out into vacuum; there are two bands where it's thin enough for humans to breathe, and then there's the band stretching from North to South Poles where it's far too dense. That's where the bandersnatchi live). Or the grogs, distant descendants of the ancient thrintun Slavers; adult grogs are unable to move, but instead telepathically control their prey into walking into their mouths.

Or the Invaders from John Varley's Eight Worlds stories, vastly powerful intelligences who live on Jupiter-like worlds and who came to Sol system to free Earth's cetaceans from us; the only two worlds the Invaders seem to care about are Earth and Jupiter, both of which are forbidden to humans. Fortunately, miners in the Kuiper Belt ran across the alien transmission known as the Ophiuchi Hotline, which gave us information needed to survive in space. Of course, none of this is as simple as it seems...

Alien Biology and lighting

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