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New Episodes/Storyline - Robert O'Reilly

imgoingmadimgoingmad Member Posts: 18 Arc User
Hello all!

While I think the episodes are very well made, I am not the biggest fan of the story of the new arc. I find it all a bit confusing, and allegiances are changing too quickly in my opinion. Maybe one or two more episodes in between to tell the full story would have been good. I also hope for some decent explanation for everyones motivation in the finale...

Having said that - I want to point out that is a very special pleasure for me to watch/listen to the work done by Robert O'Reilly. I enjoy his performances very much. Through all the years from TNG, DS9 and now STO! Hats off and thumbs up, and a big "thank you" to you Sir!

cheers,
Post edited by imgoingmad on

Comments

  • warmonger360warmonger360 Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    yeah, Gowron def needs to be "reincarnated"
    WE SURVIVE!

    aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
    either to conquer or to die for the Empire
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,811 Community Moderator
    Technically we already know J'Ula's motivation. She's a Patriot from the 23rd Century who got the mother of all Reality Checks after things didn't go as planned. Klingons in the 25th Century are different from the ones in the 23rd.

    J'mpok, on the other hand, has probably been spiraling down for some time, probably starting back when it was revealed Martok was still alive in the Tzenkethi arc. His first power play since Martok's return may have been during the Gamma Arc when he refused to bring the Empire into the fight against the Hur'q. He then got outplayed by Martok and Worf lighting the Beacon of Kahless. Then J'Ula shows up and directly challenges his authority, even going so far as to point out that his reign is illigitimate as Martok is still alive, triggering a full blown civil war. With help from Aakar, J'mpok took advantage of the situation to make a grab for the throne itself, and even attacked his own allies in order to do it.
    J'mpok is basically turning into the Klingon Emperor Nero at this point. And I wouldn't be surprised if he adopts a Scorched Earth approach to his reign. If he can't rule the Empire... NO ONE can. *attacks Qo'noS himself*
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,988 Arc User
    well...he did - he literally blew up qo'nos with the mycelial weapon​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    J'mpok is basically turning into the Klingon Emperor Nero at this point. And I wouldn't be surprised if he adopts a Scorched Earth approach to his reign. If he can't rule the Empire... NO ONE can. *attacks Qo'noS himself*
    "Operation: Cinder is to begin at once. Resistance. Rebellion. Defiance. These are concepts that cannot be allowed to persist. You are but one of many tools by which these ideas shall be burned away." --Emperor Palpat... J'mpok.
    #TASforSTO
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  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    well...he did - he literally blew up qo'nos with the mycelial weapon​​

    The one he has attacked was Khitomer; attacking Qo'noS was one of the two possible futures seen by J'ula.

    J'ula's motivation is that she was wanting to continue her brother's legacy and renew the Empire by returning to a golden era, and the progression in her character arc is that she has realised that she has screwed it up completely; she knows she can't unify the Empire now. Her hope after the most recent episode is that L'Rell can, and until Gowron turned up, was willing to spend eternity in Klingon hell to give L'Rell the chance.

    Gowron, well he's spent a few decades wandering aimlessly in the shadow; Gre'thor may be filled with honourless baktag, but at least they are Klingon baktag - it's better than the void. I have to agree that the portrayal is brilliant; old googly eyes (positive term) feels like he has grown and matured, yet there is still so much of the personality and character and desire for vengeance on his enemies that made him so interesting in TNG and DS9.

    J'mpok's motivation is that he is a wounded targ backed into a corner; his main supporter (Torg, House of Duras) got taken out by the House of Martok, and Aakar is as dangerous to J'mpok as he is useful to J'mpok, and his enemies grow with each day, both within and outside the Empire. He's paranoid and delusional, clinging to power with control of only a portion of the Empire.

    Martok doesn't care for the chancellorship, he didn't want that to begin with and doesn't want it now. Same with Worf.

    Our character is either from outside the Empire, and therefore is a danger to J'mpok because they are outside his control and almost certainly want a more stable and peaceful chancellor in charge of the Empire. A KDF-Klingon is aligned with House Martok - who are enemies of J'mpok even before all this kicked off - is directly responsible for taking out the House of Torg, and one of the greatest Klingon warriors in history, personally approved by Kahless himself after several battles fought side by side; the kind of background someone has before making their own bid to be chancellor in fact.

    All this contributes to the story - at the beginning of J'ula's return, she is a threat to everyone. Then the focus of her efforts becomes clearer and distinct from Aakar's. For the player, the side doesn't change until J'mpok attacks Khitomer unless they were smart enough to figure this out earlier.

    Where's this going? L'Rell as chancellor. J'ula has been ruled out, Martok and Worf rule themselves out, for gameplay reasons the player themselves is out (although a realistic scenario has a Klingon player character clearing their name and challenging J'mpok themselves) and J'mpok is a sinking ship.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    J'mpok ship isn't so much sinking as it is identifying as a coral reef at this point, pretty much the only reason J'mpok has any power left is a combination of the mycelial weapon and J'Ula shooting herself in the foot (metaphorically) by assuming Klingons didn't evolve culturally between the 2250s and 2411.

    EDIT:As for who will be chancellor after the dust settles, it probably won't be the PC the story issues are by themselves such a headache that I can't see Cryptic going that way. Starting with the fact that FED, ROM or DOM PCs wouldn't be able to become the chancellor or equivalent. Federation President is 100% civilian role, so it's highly likely that any Starfleet officer would have to give up their commission (effectively retire from Starfleet), D'tan is still the Pro-consul of the Republic and I don't see him retiring anytime soon and Founders would never make a Jem'Hadar the leader of the Dominion. (remember that the Chancellor of the High Council is the de facto ruler of the Klingon Empire, technically the emperor outranks the Chancellor de jure but with Kahless II it was agreed that the emperor remains as s ceremonial position in practice).
    Post edited by spiritborn on
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    J'mpok, on the other hand, has probably been spiraling down for some time, probably starting back when it was revealed Martok was still alive in the Tzenkethi arc. His first power play since Martok's return may have been during the Gamma Arc when he refused to bring the Empire into the fight against the Hur'q. He then got outplayed by Martok and Worf lighting the Beacon of Kahless. Then J'Ula shows up and directly challenges his authority, even going so far as to point out that his reign is illigitimate as Martok is still alive, triggering a full blown civil war. With help from Aakar, J'mpok took advantage of the situation to make a grab for the throne itself, and even attacked his own allies in order to do it.
    I'd say J'mpok was already spiraling down during the UFP/Klingon war (the one in the 25th century that is), when the KDF PC exposed Torg (J'mpok is far too intelligent to have not been aware at least at some level) and the FED PC took B'Vat out of the picture. then the KDF PC kept getting more and more glory, J'mpok must breathed a sigh of relief when the Iconians showed up since he now had though opponent that he could use both to direct the Klingon empire against and hopefully kill our PC.

    However we refused to die in the Iconian war and then we went and freed Martok (while it still seemed our opponents were just the Tzenkethi whom the Klingon Empire had defeat once before so they didn't quite have the proper threat level J'mpok wanted, while Martok didn't challenge J'mpok for the Chancellor's seat. The very fact we was walking about and alive was a thorn at J'mpok's side, since I suspect many klingons were asking in private the question J'Ula would later voice "if Martok is alive doesn't that mean that J'mpok isn't worthy of the Chancellorship?" causing J'mpok's final collapse into despair and madness.
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    spiritborn wrote: »
    J'mpok ship isn't so much sinking as it is identifying as a coral reef at this point, pretty much the only reason J'mpok has any power left is a combination of the mycelial weapon and J'Ula shooting herself in the foot (metaphorically) by assuming Klingons didn't evolve culturally between the 2250s and 2411.

    J'mpok still has enough power to A. declare himself Emperor and B. abolish the High Council and not be immediately killed for doing either one of those things. He isn't sunk yet.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    > @cbrjwrr said:
    > J'mpok still has enough power to A. declare himself Emperor and B. abolish the High Council and not be immediately killed for doing either one of those things. He isn't sunk yet.

    The high council had already been effectively disbanded thanks to J'Ula transmission and only reason J'mpok could declare himself the emperor was that the empire was fractured enough that it was a title without signifigance, the mycelial helped since none of the Great Houses had the powet to overthrow J'mpok by themselves, however should anyone be able unify the Great Houses or bring in UFP, Romulan Republic or the Dominion into conflict instead of them staying out as they currently are...
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,490 Arc User
    cbrjwrr wrote: »

    Where's this going? L'Rell as chancellor. J'ula has been ruled out, Martok and Worf rule themselves out, for gameplay reasons the player themselves is out (although a realistic scenario has a Klingon player character clearing their name and challenging J'mpok themselves) and J'mpok is a sinking ship.

    I wonder if L'Rell is going to plant another bomb at the center of Qo'noS and force everybody to unite and declare her chancellor again, with her finger on the button. Frankly one of the dumbest plots of all of Discovery. I'm not even sure why L'Rell is needed in the first place. Once J'mpok and Aakar are dealt with, their faction will collapse anyway. She's just being shoehorned into the plot for no other reason than having another Discovery character in STO, just like with Micheal Burnham.

    Martok would make the most sense. He didn't want the job the first time around either. But he still became chancellor, one of the very few honorable ones.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    cbrjwrr wrote: »

    Where's this going? L'Rell as chancellor. J'ula has been ruled out, Martok and Worf rule themselves out, for gameplay reasons the player themselves is out (although a realistic scenario has a Klingon player character clearing their name and challenging J'mpok themselves) and J'mpok is a sinking ship.

    I wonder if L'Rell is going to plant another bomb at the center of Qo'noS and force everybody to unite and declare her chancellor again, with her finger on the button. Frankly one of the dumbest plots of all of Discovery. I'm not even sure why L'Rell is needed in the first place. Once J'mpok and Aakar are dealt with, their faction will collapse anyway. She's just being shoehorned into the plot for no other reason than having another Discovery character in STO, just like with Micheal Burnham.

    Martok would make the most sense. He didn't want the job the first time around either. But he still became chancellor, one of the very few honorable ones.

    As far as I can tell L'Rell has no need for another bomb (and she didn't plant the first one either, just took advantage of a Starfleet black ops).

    Everything we hear in STO suggest that regardless of how it started modern Klingons see L'Rell's reign as a successful one, L'Rell was first mentioned back in Victory is Life so her status isn't something that came about with this storyline. Also Martok cannot unify the Empire House Martok has too many living enemies, where as House T'Kuvma died with L'Rell sometime before the 2290s (aka before Gorkon became the Chancellor), so neither L'Rell nor her House would have any real enemies in modern times.

    Even the House who could be considered to object to L'Rell aka House Kor died of during the Dominion War as far as we know, so all modern Klingons would know is the legends of L'Rell not the woman herself. That's why she can work as the beacon of unification Martok cannot. Too many Klingons know Martok the man and his flaws, while far fewer(if any) know L'Rell as anything but a legendary warrior and chancellor. Remember that just because we had a God's eye view into the events of season 1-2 of Discovery it doesn't mean in-universe characters had that as well, especially as those events would be 150 years in the past for most modern klingons.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,490 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    cbrjwrr wrote: »

    Even the House who could be considered to object to L'Rell aka House Kor died of during the Dominion War as far as we know, so all modern Klingons would know is the legends of L'Rell not the woman herself. That's why she can work as the beacon of unification Martok cannot.

    But this isn't L'Rell. She's a clone. Just like Emperor Kahless. If Kahless had tried to seize power (back when Gowron was chancellor), it would have meant civil war. That much was made clear in the TNG episode. There's no reason to believe it would be any different with L'Rell.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    cbrjwrr wrote: »

    Even the House who could be considered to object to L'Rell aka House Kor died of during the Dominion War as far as we know, so all modern Klingons would know is the legends of L'Rell not the woman herself. That's why she can work as the beacon of unification Martok cannot.

    But this isn't L'Rell. She's a clone. Just like Emperor Kahless. If Kahless would have tried to seize power (back when Gowron was chancellor), it would have meant civil war. That much was made clear in the TNG episode. There's no reason to believe it would be any different with L'Rell.

    Gowron didn't shoot himself in the foot with a ship mounted disruptor like J'mpok did.

    The Chancellorship of Gowron had the support (or at least acceptance) of the High Council at that point, sure some Klingon nobles would have followed Kahless II but Gowron was not hated.

    Also at this point avoiding civil war is pointless as it has already begun and UFP, RR and the Dominion are barely able to keep themselves from getting dragged into it as well.

    The attack on Khitomer wasn't just an attack on J'mpok's Klingon enemies but attack on all the members of the alliance. Thus J'mpok has very few allies either in or outside the Klingon Empire. Remember that not all Klingons who are hostile to us are allies of J'mpok some might be enemies of both.

    Therefore L'Rell II might be able to Unify Klingons against J'mpok and end the civil war that J'mpok started when he attacked Khitomer, while Kahless II would have only started a civil war for no other reason then a power grab and a civil war he might have lost too as Gowron had more support then J'mpok.

    TL:DR. Gowron many had allies who'd back him up and Klingon civil war was undesirable at that point, J'mpok has far fewer allies and Klingon civil war has already began so avoiding it is pointless.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    Essentially L'Rell doesn't need another bomb, all she needs is to defuse the one J'mpok planted (metaphorically speaking) and most people would accept her.
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    Your quote has malfunctioned.

    L'Rell's body is a clone; we rescued the important bit from Gre'thor. Another key difference is that Kahless' return was expected, while L'Rell... Is less expected. Probably wouldn't come as a total surprise given how much of the past has become the present of late.

    Another key difference was that Gowron's Empire had settled the conflict, and adding the variable of Kahless represents a decrease in stability. But, the present day has Klingons fighting Klingons and a collapse of the Imperial government, and L'Rell is more likely to be an improvement.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,490 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »

    Also at this point avoiding civil war is pointless as it has already begun and UFP, RR and the Dominion are barely able to keep themselves from getting dragged into it as well.
    ...
    Therefore L'Rell II might be able to Unify Klingons against J'mpok and end the civil war that J'mpok started when he attacked Khitomer, while Kahless II would have only started a civil war for no other reason then a power grab and a civil war he might have lost too as Gowron had more support then J'mpok.

    Well yes. But to replace one divisive figure with another won't change much. Just because the powerful Klingon houses think of J'mpok as a traitor, doesn't make them more likely to support a clone of L'Rell. They would try to seize power for themselves.
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    Your quote has malfunctioned.

    L'Rell's body is a clone; we rescued the important bit from Gre'thor. Another key difference is that Kahless' return was expected, while L'Rell... Is less expected. Probably wouldn't come as a total surprise given how much of the past has become the present of late.

    Another key difference was that Gowron's Empire had settled the conflict, and adding the variable of Kahless represents a decrease in stability. But, the present day has Klingons fighting Klingons and a collapse of the Imperial government, and L'Rell is more likely to be an improvement.

    WE know we saved L'Rell's soul from Gre'thor, but the average Klingon doesn't, and probably isn't likely to believe that story. All they see is J'mpoks enemies, J'Ula, the player, Martok, trying to seize power. An reincarnated "icon" who died a hundred years ago would seem - just a little bit too convenient. I believe L'Rell would split the Klingon empire even further.
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    szim wrote: »

    WE know we saved L'Rell's soul from Gre'thor, but the average Klingon doesn't, and probably isn't likely to believe that story. All they see is J'mpoks enemies, J'Ula, the player, Martok, trying to seize power. An reincarnated "icon" who died a hundred years ago would seem - just a little bit too convenient. I believe L'Rell would split the Klingon empire even further.

    Then they would be free to be sent to Gre'thor where they can verify the truth, and things progress as they would without L'Rell.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »

    Also at this point avoiding civil war is pointless as it has already begun and UFP, RR and the Dominion are barely able to keep themselves from getting dragged into it as well.
    ...
    Therefore L'Rell II might be able to Unify Klingons against J'mpok and end the civil war that J'mpok started when he attacked Khitomer, while Kahless II would have only started a civil war for no other reason then a power grab and a civil war he might have lost too as Gowron had more support then J'mpok.

    Well yes. But to replace one divisive figure with another won't change much. Just because the powerful Klingon houses think of J'mpok as a traitor, doesn't make them more likely to support a clone of L'Rell. They would try to seize power for themselves.
    You're not getting the proper mindset here L'Rell isn't just a random warrior, she's a legend come back to life (yes she's technically a clone, higher education isn't a priority within the Klingon empire). The Klingons are superstitious people and L'Rell appearing in orbit of Boreth(a holy place) to fight of the Fek'Ikri wouldn't seen as "Mo'Kai tricks" but a sign. Also while J'Ula is a divisive figure nothing suggests that modern Klingons have anything but respect towards L'Rell.

    Essentially on one side you got a figure from legends come back to life, who chased essentially the legions of hell from one of your holiest places and on another you got a madman who is known to kill his own allies for personal gains.

    When it was between J'Ula and J'mpok is was between choosing between 2 seemingly insane rulers and even then many Klingons chose J'Ula. L'Rell is a respected and legendary warrior from the past and it's now her faction not J'Ula's.
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