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Melee Attack needs to be improved

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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,068 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    I wouldn't recommend giving boffs melee weapons as in my experience they just stand there and do nothing if you give them one.

    :lol: Yeah, that sounds about like what I should have expected.. thanks for the info.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    all they really need to do is remove the self-root on initiating any melee attack...i don't care if it screws up the animation - neverwinter doesn't root on (most) melee attacks, ESO doesn't root, skyrim, fallouts 3, 4, NV and 76 don't root, CP77 (AFAIK) doesn't root...STO does not need to root​​
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,529 Arc User
    > @spiritborn said:
    > IIRC all Bat'leths have that short range lunge, emphasis on short though as the range is maybe 5 meters at most and probably closer to 3 meters.


    The new one is different. Try it yourself so you can understand what we're talking about.

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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,964 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    I wouldn't recommend giving boffs melee weapons as in my experience they just stand there and do nothing if you give them one.

    :lol: Yeah, that sounds about like what I should have expected.. thanks for the info.

    IIRC my tac officer used them no problem. the others, not so much. suffice to say i havent used them on BOFFs anyway. i will have to dbl check this now.
    meh

  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,053 Arc User
    > @spiritborn said:
    > IIRC all Bat'leths have that short range lunge, emphasis on short though as the range is maybe 5 meters at most and probably closer to 3 meters.


    The new one is different. Try it yourself so you can understand what we're talking about.
    Oh I've been using it since I made my KDF recruit, it's actually my main weapon on her, I use ranged on her only when I can't get to mob easily otherwise.

  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,419 Arc User
    edited January 28
    Does this auto-lunge only work with RPG controls/lock-on targeting? I've been using shooter controls pretty exclusively in combat (for years & years), and I'm constantly missing people with this stupid bat'leth. Hmm, maybe I'm just not close enough, I'll have to play closer attention when next I play my recruit.

    edit: there's no auto-attack in shooter controls, right?
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,053 Arc User
    all they really need to do is remove the self-root on initiating any melee attack...i don't care if it screws up the animation - neverwinter doesn't root on (most) melee attacks, ESO doesn't root, skyrim, fallouts 3, 4, NV and 76 don't root, CP77 (AFAIK) doesn't root...STO does not need to root​​
    Hell neither FF14(for most skills, there's some more fancier ones that do) nor WoW(IIRC on any melee attack) root the player on melee unless the skill says it does and they're not only older but being fantasy games have much more flashy melee animations.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    I doubt anyone but the most pedantic would complain about a small amount of sliding during melee if it meant you weren't just swiping a weapon at the air infront of an enemies nose.

    And since there are enemies in STO that leap great distances already (and of course the furries who pounce) they have something that could have acted as an alternative to the shove attack, a move that tends to push enemies out of melee range as they hit the floor.

    The mechanics are already present in the game but melee is another of those double edged swords where noone intentionally uses it because its TRIBBLE so why bother improving it because noone plays melee. Similar theory as to why the feds are focussed on for the ships and other fancies.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    So swapped to a Tsunkatse Falchion just to see what the differences were.

    Swords seem to have an auto-lunge range of 10 metres versus 5 for a Bat'leth. I've since moved back to the Bat'leth but think the sword is counting on the melee-o-meter as it's up at over 100 now compared to 50 last post.

    Have a lot of practice to go with melee combat. In addition to using the auto-move-forward key (R) have also tried G for target next exposed enemy and some different settings under ESC > Options > Controls but unsure if these settings make any difference so more experimentation required. Am searching for some way to get an auto-target, at least in the fray of battle.

    Will be adding some armor that gives plus melee damage and as a junior level 35 tactical toon can also buff up melee with target optics, battle strategies, ambush, and debuff target with fire on my mark. Will be adding motion accelerator as it increases physical damage. If I were a science officer I'd be adding Dylovene.

    One thing that's working for me is if the target gets out of range using lunge to close the gap quickly. It's the initial targeting that needs some fine tuning.

    It's not like a Dahar Master didn't get there without some practice.
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    ^ Some of the above combined with tab targeting and/or the G key works really well for that initial targeting. Wow, now the melee-O-meter is going up much faster and more effectively :smile:
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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    all they really need to do is remove the self-root on initiating any melee attack...i don't care if it screws up the animation - neverwinter doesn't root on (most) melee attacks, ESO doesn't root, skyrim, fallouts 3, 4, NV and 76 don't root, CP77 (AFAIK) doesn't root...STO does not need to root​​

    Agreed. Melee should be mobile, fluid, and fast. STO melee is literally none of those.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    Am feeling increasingly mobile, fluid, and fast to be honest. I think this may be a case of figuring out how to best utilize things to best effect.
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  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,419 Arc User
    kiralyn wrote: »
    Does this auto-lunge only work with RPG controls/lock-on targeting? I've been using shooter controls pretty exclusively in combat (for years & years), and I'm constantly missing people with this stupid bat'leth. Hmm, maybe I'm just not close enough, I'll have to play closer attention when next I play my recruit.

    edit: there's no auto-attack in shooter controls, right?

    Ok, yeah, the auto-lunge does work in shooter controls. But it's a bit annoying - I get in range, do "1" to get the little charge & hit... and the enemies backpedal like 15m. Every damn time. (Or at least the starfleet losers I was fighting do).
    Or, if you've backed them to a wall so they can't backpedal, they step forward 1m, so they're no longer in front of you.



    But what I really wish they'd do.... is add an actual counter to those Recruit tasks. Not having any idea where I am between 100 and 500 is annoying. ;)
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 5,269 Arc User
    I've found that the auto-lunge only works if you have the baddie targeted. If you're just swinging away with them in front of you it doesn't.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,417 Arc User
    kiralyn wrote: »
    kiralyn wrote: »
    Does this auto-lunge only work with RPG controls/lock-on targeting? I've been using shooter controls pretty exclusively in combat (for years & years), and I'm constantly missing people with this stupid bat'leth. Hmm, maybe I'm just not close enough, I'll have to play closer attention when next I play my recruit.

    edit: there's no auto-attack in shooter controls, right?


    But what I really wish they'd do.... is add an actual counter to those Recruit tasks. Not having any idea where I am between 100 and 500 is annoying. ;)

    Yeah, this wouldn't have been bad.
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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    Am feeling increasingly mobile, fluid, and fast to be honest. I think this may be a case of figuring out how to best utilize things to best effect.

    Considering melee attacks *ROOT YOU* until completed, no, you're not mobile. *RANGED* attacks can be done moving freely. But not melee, where it actually makes *SENSE* to be moving.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    Am feeling increasingly mobile, fluid, and fast to be honest. I think this may be a case of figuring out how to best utilize things to best effect.

    Considering melee attacks *ROOT YOU* until completed, no, you're not mobile. *RANGED* attacks can be done moving freely. But not melee, where it actually makes *SENSE* to be moving.

    With respect I also questioned the use of the recruit Bat'leth as well and blades in general. Luckily there was a post on the previous page that encouraged some exploration and trying to figure out what works instead of looking for alternatives.

    What's been encouraged by the 2255 KDF recruitment event are a couple of game play styles that some aren't familiar with or have become rusty at - melee combat on the ground and de-cloaking ambush kills in space. They're not entirely meta and it can be easier to complain versus exploring how to effectively accomplish them.

    The space part seemed more straight forward to me. Use a BOP with cannons and turrets, buff up, decloak, and sometimes get credit for several ambush kills simultaneously. Yet there are comments along the lines of it not being possible to kill enemy ships that fast. Sometimes you have to choose the right tools and practice.

    On the ground melee with a blade took longer to get accustomed to or reacquainted with. Figuring out target acquisition was key and then looking for some complimentary kit abilities and gear pieces. It's a different beast than ranged combat and perhaps not for everyone.

    Melee combat with a blade doesn't root you and it was refreshing to find that STO can still provide a very canon and effective melee experience fluidly moving from one target to the next using a variety of combination moves complete with their animations.

    The TV shows depict both Federation and Klingons practicing to hone reflexes for their respective types of combat. This seems to work in-game as well.
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  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,689 Arc User
    At least with this new Klingon recruit Bat'leth I saw in game chat it being said as "clunky" & I think that describes it well.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »
    Am feeling increasingly mobile, fluid, and fast to be honest. I think this may be a case of figuring out how to best utilize things to best effect.

    Considering melee attacks *ROOT YOU* until completed, no, you're not mobile. *RANGED* attacks can be done moving freely. But not melee, where it actually makes *SENSE* to be moving.

    With respect I also questioned the use of the recruit Bat'leth as well and blades in general. Luckily there was a post on the previous page that encouraged some exploration and trying to figure out what works instead of looking for alternatives.

    What's been encouraged by the 2255 KDF recruitment event are a couple of game play styles that some aren't familiar with or have become rusty at - melee combat on the ground and de-cloaking ambush kills in space. They're not entirely meta and it can be easier to complain versus exploring how to effectively accomplish them.

    The space part seemed more straight forward to me. Use a BOP with cannons and turrets, buff up, decloak, and sometimes get credit for several ambush kills simultaneously. Yet there are comments along the lines of it not being possible to kill enemy ships that fast. Sometimes you have to choose the right tools and practice.

    On the ground melee with a blade took longer to get accustomed to or reacquainted with. Figuring out target acquisition was key and then looking for some complimentary kit abilities and gear pieces. It's a different beast than ranged combat and perhaps not for everyone.

    Melee combat with a blade doesn't root you and it was refreshing to find that STO can still provide a very canon and effective melee experience fluidly moving from one target to the next using a variety of combination moves complete with their animations.

    The TV shows depict both Federation and Klingons practicing to hone reflexes for their respective types of combat. This seems to work in-game as well.

    When you swing melee weapons, you stop moving. *YOU* stop moving while the enemy promptly backs right out of range of your attack. Also, they're using ranged weapons and continue freely attacking you while you swing at air. So, yeah, no. This game's melee mechanics are a bad joke. It's *NOT* something to be highlighting for the recruitment event. Not that there aren't things they could have done to make melee better. They just haven't. And that sours the whole experience.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    Starter Meta versus Starter Melee using mostly story line and crafted gear as demonstrated by a level 50 Klingon. Note that he's not a Dahar Master yet so there's likely even more effective ways yet to be discovered ;)

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    How to melee - approach group of bad guys and lob a photon grenade at 5 metres or less, if any survive you now have a target, if there's no target press tab or try the G key to target the next exposed enemy. Press any melee attack key to auto-lunge (move) quickly to close with the target. Feel free to buff up with Battle Strategies or Motion Accelerator. Use Bat'leth combo moves as pictured above for a variety of effective attacks.

    Continue use of tab key to select other targets as needed and quickly close with them using auto-lunge as well. If the target decides to move out of range use R for auto-move-forward or select ambush then lunge. Target is now likely dead. If not, continue use of Bat'leth until desired result is achieved.

    Fluid movement between targets is absolutely possible with practice and becomes natural over time. Selecting the right gear as well as personal ground traits like Sturdy, Sure Footed, and Physical Strength as well as a Klingon's racial traits all help get the job done.

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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    All of that...to achieve what is still inferior to *out of the box* ranged combat. Grats on proving my point.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,964 Arc User
    Ground fun in this game is by far one of the less well tuned in any game played.

    That said, as stated, I've really enjoyed ground fights with fists and karate kicks. Per the convo of rooting, at least with black belt techniques, I can justify me being rooted while doing a swinging round house kick...but I can't justify weapons, save the current one we get, since it still roots in place while fighting. And I really wanted to like the dual balaeths (spelling) to work well, but was not impressed.

    I use the gloves and matching shield. I can't recall the names right now. I also have other aspects in place that give me better run speed and melee attacks with other bonuses.
    I have a blast going fisty cuffs with baddies, but the system could use a good adjustment to make it more fluid. Also understand that most of my hand to hand toons are klinks...and even for the fed klink I have. Not to say they dont use weapons with lasers at times.

    While the post above offers techniques and welcomed for those seeking better melee action, it still requires more than it should.

    It's good they have the gap closure method for the new weapon, but an auto target for closest to you should also be added.
    meh

  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    It breaks a warrior's heart when a young Jedi gets such a rigid mindset they don't take the time to explore things and try to improve themselves :'(

    Perhaps it's easier to dismiss something when the desire to get past the point of swinging a blade at empty space is lacking.

    Sometimes it can be enlightening and rewarding to get back to basics and doing so may even open up future synergies.

    Could that be what's being encouraged here?
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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    If I have to put in three times the effort for half the result, what fool thinks that is a 'good' design?
    1. all melee attacks should allow you to fully move and never root you for any amount of time.
    2. all melee weapons should have an innate engage/opener attack that can be used from 10+ meters away to close the distance.
    3. engage/opener melee attacks should apply a brief snare or root to the target.
    4. melee attacks should, if no target is selected, auto-target the nearest enemy close enough to hit or engage.

    4 'simple' changes, and a melee combat would be completely different (and far more enjoyable) experience.


  • jagdtier44jagdtier44 Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    edited January 30
    So melee has a few problems, one was actually fixed in the klingon revamps, the fact that NPCs scatter if you try to melee. unfortunately they didnt carry this change into any other missions so you still spend to much time running around

    secondly the weapon they want you to use the Bat'leth is one of the worst melee weapons in the entire game, every Bat'leth attack is slow and roots you in place while it happens effectively meaning NPCs are constantly running out of your melee range making you charge back in each strike.

    Swords are much better they strike faster there's less time wiffing hits though you still need to charge a lot. The disco rep melee weapon is probably the second best in the game, its VERY helpful that part of the set boosts your run speed by a ton and again it strikes pretty quickly

    If your gonna do the 2500 kills the real weapon to use is the Dual Nanopulse Mak'leth's from the Khitomer Discord mission, they strike insanely fast, do tons of damage and have a nice lunge on the secondary attack. These things litereally EAT npcs in melee combat. The huge issue is that right now the missions borked.. I got it completed on my recruit but one of my mains can't finish it and its in he bug forums with a bunch of others saying the mission can't be finished and this is the ONLY way to get dual mak'leths which sucks.. SO you can try doing it but you might get stuck about halfway through it
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    edited January 30
    one thing i'd like to see them do with bat'leths is make them AoE weapons - the things are so massive, they should be able to hit any target within a small cone on EVERY swing, regardless of combo being used

    basically, turn them into a melee pulsewave - and the sto-vo-kor bat'leth should get a bigger radius if cryptic chooses to do this, because the thing is TRIBBLE massive - i swear it has to be 12 feet long or close to it​​
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  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    My guess is “home” might be a good option too. There are probably close to 1000 hurq in that mission...if you equip the whole away team with bat’leths you could probably make short work of the accolade.
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  • tagentagen Member Posts: 398 Arc User
    smi3th wrote: »
    Weirdly the one really interesting thing in the otherwise completely annoying and infuriating "Play as J'ula" Knowledge is Power mission is how smoothly she shifts between guns and melee attack as needed. If only th eplayer characters could work like that. ...

    When she engages with her mekleths she advances on the enemy she has autotargeted, and attacking automatically faces you towards the enemy. This is how all melee weapons should work. It's good to know the code now exists; if only it could be implemented across the board.

    Right now if you want to use melee, against most opponents you need to use something like stun grenade or electro-gravitic field because otherwise enemies just dodge out of the way, and once you click the attack buttons for a melee weapon your character cannot move until the attack is complete. Weapon malfunction works on klingons because they can switch to melee and will get close on their own.

    see bold and italics. we need this...it was great to have this feature in this mission. needs to be done for all melee. and i am a fan of melee in the game too.

    Agreed. I was thinking the same thing when I played that mission. The melee was not nearly as painful as when using the bat'leth on my recruit. That lunge to close the gap made all the difference, plus the movement just felt more fluid in general.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,555 Arc User
    smi3th wrote: »
    Weirdly the one really interesting thing in the otherwise completely annoying and infuriating "Play as J'ula" Knowledge is Power mission is how smoothly she shifts between guns and melee attack as needed. If only th eplayer characters could work like that. ...

    When she engages with her mekleths she advances on the enemy she has autotargeted, and attacking automatically faces you towards the enemy. This is how all melee weapons should work. It's good to know the code now exists; if only it could be implemented across the board.

    Right now if you want to use melee, against most opponents you need to use something like stun grenade or electro-gravitic field because otherwise enemies just dodge out of the way, and once you click the attack buttons for a melee weapon your character cannot move until the attack is complete. Weapon malfunction works on klingons because they can switch to melee and will get close on their own.

    Fuse armor also works like a charm
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,068 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    It breaks a warrior's heart when a young Jedi gets such a rigid mindset they don't take the time to explore things and try to improve themselves :'(

    Perhaps it's easier to dismiss something when the desire to get past the point of swinging a blade at empty space is lacking.

    Sometimes it can be enlightening and rewarding to get back to basics and doing so may even open up future synergies.

    Could that be what's being encouraged here?

    For what it’s worth, I am with you.

    I have been playing STO pretty regularly since LOR (with a couple breaks of course) and I have never.. ever touched melee combat in this game. Never even considered it.. ever. One of our fleet mates (Kyle) does it quite well and I always thought it was cool, but never really considered it. I started playing with it because of the current event and while it’s not perfect, I have to say that ‘Three times the effort for half the result’ is certainly not what I am seeing. After a little practice, I am cutting people down in mass with the Event Bat’leth and loving it... the thing is really powerful, especially once you unlock it’s ability to heal you. The next unlock increased my damage by 50% and you can pretty much one shot trash mobs.

    Now, is it perfect? I think we will all agree it’s not. I think most will probably agree that ranged combat will always be more effective in this game, and yes.. ranged combat is easier. But the Melee has had one unexpected result for me.. it’s actually fun. I just like cleaving people with a Bat’leth.. it’s a satisfying experience. Is my Melee Klingon ever going to be my best DPS ground character? Probably not.. but she’s currently the most fun.

    I’ll agree that melee could use some tweaks, but I don’t think it’s nearly as bad or unusable as some people make it sound.
    qultuq wrote: »
    My guess is “home” might be a good option too. There are probably close to 1000 hurq in that mission...if you equip the whole away team with bat’leths you could probably make short work of the accolade.

    This is a great idea, I can’t wait to try it. They shall taste my blade!! :smiley:
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