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In your opinion: What does the KDF faction need?

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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    Why would they create a sub faction when the alliance is all that matters now?
    Seems a bit off.
    meh

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    Why would they create a sub faction when the alliance is all that matters now?
    Seems a bit off.

    For a number of story reasons, one of which is that it would allow them to do a joint AoY/DSC Klingon recruitment if they want to.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,104 Arc User
    honestly? a muzzle for the toxic players whining about "Feddiebear" this and that. some klingon-centric events, like the day of honor. the legendary bundle which I think is pretty much confirmed at this point.
    Spock.jpg

  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,543 Arc User
    At this point the only thing I'd like is more color options on outfit pieces. So tired of gray, brown, etc.
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,878 Arc User
    honestly? a muzzle for the toxic players whining about "Feddiebear" this and that. some klingon-centric events, like the day of honor. the legendary bundle which I think is pretty much confirmed at this point.
    I'm glad that Klingon-centric events offer some additional character to various things all STO players can do.

    We add character to the game :smile:
    gad9vMA.jpg
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    what does the KDF faction need it didn't receive as of now?
    Players.
    honestly? a muzzle for the toxic players whining about "Feddiebear" this and that. some klingon-centric events, like the day of honor. the legendary bundle which I think is pretty much confirmed at this point.
    Only a few people talk about "Feddiebears" and they post on this forum, no reason to pay them any attention. Now, if those players posted on Reddit or Twitter, then the devs might be more inclined to listen.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,476 Arc User
    More

    That's what it needs, more

    More everything...more ships...more uniforms...more color options...Klingons can use more hair styles
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    > @lianthelia said:
    > More
    >
    > That's what it needs, more
    >
    > More everything...more ships...more uniforms...more color options...Klingons can use more hair styles

    Hair styles for sure. I wish we had some more uniforms variants from TNG and the movies...And some of the NPC uniforms. It is nice that KDF uniforms outside of the academy and lobi stuff are free—but we have almost every onscreen outfit except for the Klingons.

    That is about it. I would prefer if we got an arc other than the Fek’Ihri arc. It feels a little cartoonish to me, but I do like that they tied the Fek’Ihri to the Dominion in VOL—so I have come to terms with the Fek’Ihri being in game. But I would prefer have a longer federation war arc.

    And if I were dreaming big...I guess a holographic Gowron, TOS KDF faction, , and yeah the ability to respond in a way that sounds more Klingon than Like a federation officer.

    other than the uniforms and actual Klingon hair, we have just about everything in game currently.

    Oh yeah and a legendary BOP!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • minidariminidari Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    to be a full member of the Federation of Planets :)
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    People whined and demanded carriers for Feds for years when they could always play carriers if they wanted to, just make a KDF character. You and I were happy to do that, but other people never did, for whatever reason. So it is no surprise that the KDF population has slowly dwindled as more of their toys get just handed over to the Feds.
    If people are only playing a faction for exclusive goodies then they don't care about the faction, they only care about the goodies. If people actually cared about the faction it wouldn't matter to them either way. This really just goes to show how unpalatable Klingons are, as an idea, to most people.

    Which really isn't surprising. Most RPGs I've seen post the data for it show that human "warrior" is the most picked option by far. I know that, out of the 5 playable races in Guild Wars 2, humans make up 40% of the game's population, and the other 4 are like 14-16% each. Humans massively outnumber any of the other playable species, even when each has equal content.

    I won't disagree with the idea that the largest share of people play human, but it just proves the point that others may need some incentives to attract players. At least what I want is for both factions to get more equal treatment, and that requires more KDF players to get that financial incentive for Cryptic, but that first requires some investment to make it more attractive to players. That is in some part what YOK is about, yet they totally dropped the ball by not including KDF ships in it yet, nor by actually doing anything to make the KDF mechanically attractive and I think it needs that.

    At least for me in STO, I think I only have 1 proper human and that's actually my newest character. Of course I don't have an actual Klingon either.
  • warmonger360warmonger360 Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    minidari wrote: »
    to be a full member of the Federation of Planets :)

    no, never. were it not for guinan, there would have been a GLOious war with the federation
    WE SURVIVE!

    aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
    either to conquer or to die for the Empire
  • cirran1cirran1 Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    Personally I think some missions that explore the background and culture of all the races that make up the Klingon Faction. Heck the Federation would benefit from this as well.

    Cirran
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    cirran1 wrote: »
    Personally I think some missions that explore the background and culture of all the races that make up the Klingon Faction. Heck the Federation would benefit from this as well.

    Cirran

    Every homeworld of the playable species needs to be visitable and fleshed out
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
    What the KDF faction most need, is to relax, get back to farming and writing poetry and accept their new position as a peaceful Federation member world.

    Oh, and less of an obsession with fire.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    cirran1 wrote: »
    Personally I think some missions that explore the background and culture of all the races that make up the Klingon Faction. Heck the Federation would benefit from this as well.

    Cirran

    Every homeworld of the playable species needs to be visitable and fleshed out

    That would be ideal, it would give a real sense of what each culture is like. Unfortunately some of the playable species don't even have a homeworld on the map much less a visitable one.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,020 Arc User
    I won't disagree with the idea that the largest share of people play human, but it just proves the point that others may need some incentives to attract players. At least what I want is for both factions to get more equal treatment, and that requires more KDF players to get that financial incentive for Cryptic, but that first requires some investment to make it more attractive to players. That is in some part what YOK is about, yet they totally dropped the ball by not including KDF ships in it yet, nor by actually doing anything to make the KDF mechanically attractive and I think it needs that.

    At least for me in STO, I think I only have 1 proper human and that's actually my newest character. Of course I don't have an actual Klingon either.
    Given that the KDF originally had unique mechanics, and that did little to coerce more then a handful of people over to KDF, why do you think round 2 would be any different? Likewise, 83% of all T6 ships have been released as totally faction neutral, or as part of cross faction packs that include a KDF counterpart, and that has also done little to attract players to KDF. Why do you think adding more ships is going to change anything? You make the mistake of thinking that Klingons are undesirable due to a lack of unique mechanics, or ships, when, in reality, the problem is something else entirely. Klingons are undesirable as an idea, not because a lack of exclusive stuff.

    Star Trek, like most fantasy and scifi series, makes it non human species stand out using "fantasy racism" techniques. Things like "all dwarves are drunks, who are warriors, miners, and smiths" and "all Elves are attractive, artists, and archers". They do this to highlight differences to an extreme, because a more balanced species would come across as just humans that look different. While this makes for entertaining television, it does little to make the races attractive in a situation to play as them, because such races are obviously too unbalanced to ever be functional, and these races having obsessions to such extreme degrees comes off as moronic. The Klingon faction suffers from this more because its the "warrior" trope. A species, or group of species, whose whole purpose is to just go around and punch things.... because reasons. This species trope make for good adversaries, but are totally unattractive to most people because such mindless violence isn't interesting. Not to mention they always have the most dysfunctional, corrupt, and broken, government, and society. Whose flaws are so massive, and obvious, you wonder how they even got that far in the first place, because they really shouldn't have lasted thing long. Most people don't find that kind of character interesting, as an idea, to play as.

    This is true beyond Star Trek as well. In Guild Wars 2, while humans make up 40% of the player population, and the Asura, Norn, and Sylvari, clock in at 15-16% each, the Charr, GW2's Klingon equivalent, comes in at only 12%. This is also true of total playtime, with humans making up 44% of total playtime, Sylvari, Asura, and Norn, all coming in at around 14-15% each, and Charr coming in at only 9%. A noticeable decrease from the others. When its been brought up on the forums, the number one stated reason behind why Charr lag being even the other non human races is because of the way other whole lore and society is. Most people don't find a violent military culture, that disregards pretty much everything else to the point of self destruction, fun to play as.

    Slapping unique mechanics onto the Klingon faction, or throwing more ships in their direction, isn't going to make more people play them any more then it did back when you had to play Klingons to get a carrier. People don't play Klingons because of a lack of things, they don't play them because they don't like them as an idea.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    I won't disagree with the idea that the largest share of people play human, but it just proves the point that others may need some incentives to attract players. At least what I want is for both factions to get more equal treatment, and that requires more KDF players to get that financial incentive for Cryptic, but that first requires some investment to make it more attractive to players. That is in some part what YOK is about, yet they totally dropped the ball by not including KDF ships in it yet, nor by actually doing anything to make the KDF mechanically attractive and I think it needs that.

    At least for me in STO, I think I only have 1 proper human and that's actually my newest character. Of course I don't have an actual Klingon either.
    Given that the KDF originally had unique mechanics, and that did little to coerce more then a handful of people over to KDF, why do you think round 2 would be any different? Likewise, 83% of all T6 ships have been released as totally faction neutral, or as part of cross faction packs that include a KDF counterpart, and that has also done little to attract players to KDF. Why do you think adding more ships is going to change anything? You make the mistake of thinking that Klingons are undesirable due to a lack of unique mechanics, or ships, when, in reality, the problem is something else entirely. Klingons are undesirable as an idea, not because a lack of exclusive stuff.

    Star Trek, like most fantasy and scifi series, makes it non human species stand out using "fantasy racism" techniques. Things like "all dwarves are drunks, who are warriors, miners, and smiths" and "all Elves are attractive, artists, and archers". They do this to highlight differences to an extreme, because a more balanced species would come across as just humans that look different. While this makes for entertaining television, it does little to make the races attractive in a situation to play as them, because such races are obviously too unbalanced to ever be functional, and these races having obsessions to such extreme degrees comes off as moronic. The Klingon faction suffers from this more because its the "warrior" trope. A species, or group of species, whose whole purpose is to just go around and punch things.... because reasons. This species trope make for good adversaries, but are totally unattractive to most people because such mindless violence isn't interesting. Not to mention they always have the most dysfunctional, corrupt, and broken, government, and society. Whose flaws are so massive, and obvious, you wonder how they even got that far in the first place, because they really shouldn't have lasted thing long. Most people don't find that kind of character interesting, as an idea, to play as.

    This is true beyond Star Trek as well. In Guild Wars 2, while humans make up 40% of the player population, and the Asura, Norn, and Sylvari, clock in at 15-16% each, the Charr, GW2's Klingon equivalent, comes in at only 12%. This is also true of total playtime, with humans making up 44% of total playtime, Sylvari, Asura, and Norn, all coming in at around 14-15% each, and Charr coming in at only 9%. A noticeable decrease from the others. When its been brought up on the forums, the number one stated reason behind why Charr lag being even the other non human races is because of the way other whole lore and society is. Most people don't find a violent military culture, that disregards pretty much everything else to the point of self destruction, fun to play as.

    Slapping unique mechanics onto the Klingon faction, or throwing more ships in their direction, isn't going to make more people play them any more then it did back when you had to play Klingons to get a carrier. People don't play Klingons because of a lack of things, they don't play them because they don't like them as an idea.


    Stereotypes are not racism and rarely even apply to some racial group as opposed to a cultural group.


    As for the KDF, what part of the Klingon Empire government or society has anything to do with the gameplay? What part of this warrior culture is even represented in the game mechanics? Are you talking about the single minded warrior culture with ships that have no real warrior advantage over Fed ships?

    I'm sure there are people that don't like the philosophy of it, but that isn't relevant. You can't look at the KDF and seriously suggest that any of their philosophy is really seen in the game as anything more than window dressing. Their ships aren't meaner in battle, they don't have unique abilities, and the playstyle is identical to the Feds who have far more ships.

    Also, storywise, the KDF was always right about the Undine. They went to war because the Gorn, and then Federation was infiltrated, wouldn't do anything about it, and were quickly proven completely right. The right side of history, like it or not, is the KDF side, thus it is entirely logical to conclude that Fed players are Undine sympathizers who do not care at all about the integrity of the Federation or peace in the quadrant else they would have joined the KDF. But then, who plays this game and honestly thinks the Federation isn't chock full of warrior species itself? The game is full of near endless fighting. There is no more exploration, afterall.


    You're claiming without evidence that the numbers of KDF today is somehow no different to years ago when they had a real, if tiny mechanical difference versus the Feds. I'd bet that is incorrect, but we don't have numbers as far as I'm aware.

    Would you also believe that no one makes Roms simply because they can have a full ship of SRO BOFFs or Doms to skip some portion of the grind? I guarantee you people do that, because they are mechanical advantages. KDF has no such advantages, nor any uniqueness any longer, short of the few missions. However you never need to do more than one character for the missions and can use whatever free event ships you can get your hands on to manage them.

    I don't know anything about GW2 and don't understand why you keep bringing it up here. It is irrelevant to the discussion. If you have something saying why people don't make KDF characters that would be useful. Afterall, they aren't the only warrior faction with Dom's being exclusively Jem'hadar which are bred for exactly one thing, unlike the KDF.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,020 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Stereotypes are not racism and rarely even apply to some racial group as opposed to a cultural group.
    No one said anything about stereotypes.
    As for the KDF, what part of the Klingon Empire government or society has anything to do with the gameplay? What part of this warrior culture is even represented in the game mechanics? Are you talking about the single minded warrior culture with ships that have no real warrior advantage over Fed ships?

    I'm sure there are people that don't like the philosophy of it, but that isn't relevant. You can't look at the KDF and seriously suggest that any of their philosophy is really seen in the game as anything more than window dressing. Their ships aren't meaner in battle, they don't have unique abilities, and the playstyle is identical to the Feds who have far more ships.
    And the Charr don't have any exclusive weapons, or armors, that reflect that either. And they have about as much unique storyline content as Klingons do in STO, with everything else being racially neutral like STO. People hate it SPECIFICALLY because of the philosophy of it. It doesn't matter if its heavily represented at all. The idea of it is offensive to many, and that is all that matters.
    Also, storywise, the KDF was always right about the Undine. They went to war because the Gorn, and then Federation was infiltrated, wouldn't do anything about it, and were quickly proven completely right. The right side of history, like it or not, is the KDF side, thus it is entirely logical to conclude that Fed players are Undine sympathizers who do not care at all about the integrity of the Federation or peace in the quadrant else they would have joined the KDF. But then, who plays this game and honestly thinks the Federation isn't chock full of warrior species itself? The game is full of near endless fighting. There is no more exploration, afterall.
    The Klingons were right about there being an Undine infiltration. Going on a galactic crusade wasn't the answer. The Undine were trying to pit everyone against each other, and the Klingons fell for it like suckers. Which in turn started a destructive war that wasted many on both sides that could have been better spent against the Undine, or the Iconians, but the Klingons inability to do anything besides go out and PUNCH EVERYTHING! meant that they just HAD to be stupid, and wasteful, about it.
    You're claiming without evidence that the numbers of KDF today is somehow no different to years ago when they had a real, if tiny mechanical difference versus the Feds. I'd bet that is incorrect, but we don't have numbers as far as I'm aware.
    I literally never said anything of the sort in regards to the numbers being similar today then it was years ago.
    Would you also believe that no one makes Roms simply because they can have a full ship of SRO BOFFs or Doms to skip some portion of the grind? I guarantee you people do that, because they are mechanical advantages. KDF has no such advantages, nor any uniqueness any longer, short of the few missions. However you never need to do more than one character for the missions and can use whatever free event ships you can get your hands on to manage them.
    I can tell from this you didn't read my post. I specifically stated
    Given that the KDF originally had unique mechanics, and that did little to coerce more then a handful of people over to KDF, why do you think round 2 would be any different?
    I point blank referenced that SOME people were in KDF for the mechanics, back when it had them. I also pointed out it was a relative handful. Just like Roms and Jems.
    I don't know anything about GW2 and don't understand why you keep bringing it up here. It is irrelevant to the discussion. If you have something saying why people don't make KDF characters that would be useful. Afterall, they aren't the only warrior faction with Dom's being exclusively Jem'hadar which are bred for exactly one thing, unlike the KDF.
    At this point I am convinced your constant use of "I don't understand why you are referencing other things!"is simply a deflection as a lack of a counter point. Like, do you really not understand the idea behind comparisons?

    I pointed out Klingons aren't played because of the way their culture is, and pointed to a similar situation in another game to show that this isn't an issue just in Star Trek, and its part of a larger cultural rejection of these types of characters.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    > @somtaawkhar said:
    > Star Trek, like most fantasy and scifi series, makes it non human species stand out using "fantasy racism" techniques. Things like "all dwarves are drunks, who are warriors, miners, and smiths" and "all Elves are attractive, artists, and archers".(...) The Klingon faction suffers from this more because its the "warrior" trope. A species, or group of species, whose whole purpose is to just go around and punch things.... because reasons. This species trope make for good adversaries, but are totally unattractive to most people because such mindless violence isn't interesting.

    Som has a very compelling argument here, once again.

    I don’t entirely agree with him or her or them, though. In Star Trek there are only a handful of alien species that have really been developed beyond an “all dwarfs are drunk” stereotype—

    And among them Klingons, Vulcans, and likely Cardasians and Ferengi.

    Via Worf—the hero of half the TNG and DS9 content—we have a thorough look at Klingon. The Okurand contribution was also substantial.

    Basically there is only one culture in STO—other than Vulcans which was economically viable as an independent faction—those were Klingons. And the monetization of that faction unfortunately failed. Of course if Cryptic put more resources into them it may have been viable...but at the end of the day they tried for 10 years to get that model to “work.”

    Star Trek certainly has a problem with “cultures of hats”... but it is not a simple problem to fix when your product is “monster of the week” television.

    That being said, I do not not think KDF development is a dead-end for Cryptic. Hopefully YOK will be a new beginning—or a Nicholas Meyer “undiscovered country” of possibilities for STO.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
    There was also a hint in Enterprise that Klingons weren't all about fighting.

    Still, a bit of civilised behaviour here and there, doesn't really change the perception that most people have of Klingon culture. Whether rightful or not, they are to many people what Som has described them as being. A single Klingon lawyer in Enterprise or a Worf (who is different exactly because he didn't grow up as a full member of the Klingon culture - an important point I think in this discussion) doesn't really change that.

    Even in DS9, which I think did a better job than most other series at introducing some nuance and adding some more layers to otherwise flat cultures, Klingons are often appreciated for their combat skills. And even in DS9 we see them making the same mistakes that Som just described.

    Sure, they were fighting for the greater good in that series and it wasn't just mindless violence - but still, we didn't get to see many Klingons who were really different from the staple Klingon, did we?



    And then of course Discovery came and any semblance of civilisation or purpose beyond 'rawwrr! Honour!' was removed entirely.

    They were turned into mindless animals more than ever before. Of course, that doesn't have that much to do with the limited KDF faction popularity that has always been a thing in STO - as the game is much older than DIS - but I'm sure it hasn't helped either.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    People hate it SPECIFICALLY because of the philosophy of it. It doesn't matter if its heavily represented at all. The idea of it is offensive to many, and that is all that matters.

    what philosophy and what is offensive?
    meh

  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    Stereotypes are not racism and rarely even apply to some racial group as opposed to a cultural group.
    No one said anything about stereotypes.

    You did.
    Star Trek, like most fantasy and scifi series, makes it non human species stand out using "fantasy racism" techniques.
    That isn't racism, it is stereotyping.
    As for the KDF, what part of the Klingon Empire government or society has anything to do with the gameplay? What part of this warrior culture is even represented in the game mechanics? Are you talking about the single minded warrior culture with ships that have no real warrior advantage over Fed ships?

    I'm sure there are people that don't like the philosophy of it, but that isn't relevant. You can't look at the KDF and seriously suggest that any of their philosophy is really seen in the game as anything more than window dressing. Their ships aren't meaner in battle, they don't have unique abilities, and the playstyle is identical to the Feds who have far more ships.
    And the Charr don't have any exclusive weapons, or armors, that reflect that either. And they have about as much unique storyline content as Klingons do in STO, with everything else being racially neutral like STO. People hate it SPECIFICALLY because of the philosophy of it. It doesn't matter if its heavily represented at all. The idea of it is offensive to many, and that is all that matters.

    Again, I don't care about GW2 races. They are utterly irrelevant. That some people will never play X race because of their philosophy is a given, and there is NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT. Klingons are part of Trek canon, not something Cryptic can rewrite to make it appealing to more people. That can't be worked around, so why keep talking about it?
    You're claiming without evidence that the numbers of KDF today is somehow no different to years ago when they had a real, if tiny mechanical difference versus the Feds. I'd bet that is incorrect, but we don't have numbers as far as I'm aware.
    I literally never said anything of the sort in regards to the numbers being similar today then it was years ago.

    Really?
    Slapping unique mechanics onto the Klingon faction, or throwing more ships in their direction, isn't going to make more people play them any more then it did back when you had to play Klingons to get a carrier. People don't play Klingons because of a lack of things, they don't play them because they don't like them as an idea.

    You seem to think that the only real reason people don't play KDF is because they don't like them. That implicitly means that nothing about the KDF losing its unique mechanical points affected the numbers of people wanting to play KDF, thus meaning there is no real difference over the years as people only really care about the philosophy not the mechanics. However, you have zero evidence to back that claim up.
    Would you also believe that no one makes Roms simply because they can have a full ship of SRO BOFFs or Doms to skip some portion of the grind? I guarantee you people do that, because they are mechanical advantages. KDF has no such advantages, nor any uniqueness any longer, short of the few missions. However you never need to do more than one character for the missions and can use whatever free event ships you can get your hands on to manage them.
    I can tell from this you didn't read my post. I specifically stated
    Given that the KDF originally had unique mechanics, and that did little to coerce more then a handful of people over to KDF, why do you think round 2 would be any different?
    I point blank referenced that SOME people were in KDF for the mechanics, back when it had them. I also pointed out it was a relative handful. Just like Roms and Jems.

    Again, you said...
    Slapping unique mechanics onto the Klingon faction, or throwing more ships in their direction, isn't going to make more people play them any more then it did back when you had to play Klingons to get a carrier. People don't play Klingons because of a lack of things, they don't play them because they don't like them as an idea.

    You have zero evidence to support your claim that the main reason people don't play KDF is because of the Klingon culture. There is no such polling to back that up.

    The sum total of your argument is to do jack all about the KDF and let it rot. I on the other hand believe that changes to make the KDF actually unique would improve them, and you want to argue that it won't while also claiming you aren't arguing that mechanical differences won't help the numbers.
    I don't know anything about GW2 and don't understand why you keep bringing it up here. It is irrelevant to the discussion. If you have something saying why people don't make KDF characters that would be useful. Afterall, they aren't the only warrior faction with Dom's being exclusively Jem'hadar which are bred for exactly one thing, unlike the KDF.
    At this point I am convinced your constant use of "I don't understand why you are referencing other things!"is simply a deflection as a lack of a counter point. Like, do you really not understand the idea behind comparisons?

    I pointed out Klingons aren't played because of the way their culture is, and pointed to a similar situation in another game to show that this isn't an issue just in Star Trek, and its part of a larger cultural rejection of these types of characters.

    Do you not understand that you are comparing apples and oranges? You are attempting to use polling data (from possibly nonscientific polls) from another game completely unrelated to Star Trek, about a completely unrelated species to Klingons, and suggesting that it tells us anything about why people don't play as KDF in STO.

    Furthermore, I already agreed on the concept that some people do not want to play Klingons because of their philosophy. How many? No one knows! But why talk about them? Those people can't be won over! There is no point to discussing them, because the KDF philosophy isn't changing at all.

    Now how many players don't play KDF because they've determined there is nothing unique enough to the playstyle of KDF and KDF ships to warrant it? Those are the ones that matter here, and those are the ones that can be won over with changes to ships and mechanics if they make the KDF have some unique toys again.
  • lordconn#9249 lordconn Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    As I have said before, a Klingon affiliated Ferengi player race, so I can play as a traditional Ferengi rather than a Federation Boy Scout.
  • smi3thsmi3th Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    questerius wrote: »
    Seriously, what is up with all the archaic symbolism and reverence of medieval warrior culture.

    Mainly it's because the Klingon Empire still IS a medieval warrior culture.

    The canon backstory from the shows is that when the Hur'q occupied Qo'noS, the Klingons were still at a medieval level culturally and technologially. The Klingons had an uprising that forced the Hur'q to withdraw, and in the process they gained technologies like starships and energy weapons through the study of captured Hur'q equipment. So they basically stole all this technology while in a medieval cultural period, and they still haven't left that.
    being allowed to group with the fed side in TFOs and missions,
    Yeah that would be huge.
    In addition to the ships, the KDF side needs some story content that is based in the other member states, stories set in Orion, Gorn, or Nausican territory ...
    I would really enjoy seeing this. There's a little bit of this in the Nimbus arc, but not nearly enough.
    As I have said before, a Klingon affiliated Ferengi player race, so I can play as a traditional Ferengi rather than a Federation Boy Scout.
    I would support that. There are lots of Ferengi hanging around First City, and I always wondered why Ferengi couldn't be in the KDF.


  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,020 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    You did... That isn't racism, it is stereotyping.
    Stereotyping would involve many people in that specific group having those qualities, but the overall group being diverse. Alien species in Star Trek are giant monoliths where everyone thinks, acts, dresses, and in many cases looks the exact same, and often to overly exaggerated levels. That is fantasy racism.
    Again, I don't care about GW2 races. They are utterly irrelevant. That some people will never play X race because of their philosophy is a given, and there is NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT. Klingons are part of Trek canon, not something Cryptic can rewrite to make it appealing to more people. That can't be worked around, so why keep talking about it?
    They aren't though, because many of the reasons why races are popular there apply here. And, in case you forgot, your original post that started this whole conversation was about trying to boost KDF numbers to the point they see more development. That isn't going to happen because people simply don't want to play them.
    Really?... You seem to think that the only real reason people don't play KDF is because they don't like them. That implicitly means that nothing about the KDF losing its unique mechanical points affected the numbers of people wanting to play KDF, thus meaning there is no real difference over the years as people only really care about the philosophy not the mechanics. However, you have zero evidence to back that claim up.
    This is just a straw man. At no point during the part you quoted did I ever state, or imply, that the only reason why people don't play KDF only because they don't like them/ In fact, as I explicitly pointed out, the very first sentence of my post mentioned some people played KDF for the unique mechanics, just not a lot.
    Again, you said... You have zero evidence to support your claim that the main reason people don't play KDF is because of the Klingon culture. There is no such polling to back that up.

    The sum total of your argument is to do jack all about the KDF and let it rot. I on the other hand believe that changes to make the KDF actually unique would improve them, and you want to argue that it won't while also claiming you aren't arguing that mechanical differences won't help the numbers.
    I have plenty of evidence, the game itself. Way back when Klingons did have unique mechanics, like carriers, few people still played them. So obviously giving them unique mechanics isn't going to draw many people over to them. Most people don't want to play Klingons, and would instead prefer to sit around and ask for things to be added to their side instead of making a Klingon.

    And that's another straw man. I never said anything about letting Klingons rot. All I said is that most people don't want to play them, so they aren't going to even if you try to give them unique mechanics, or ship types. Not to mention, trying to give faction unique mechanics like that just leads to those mechanics rarely, if ever, being updated because devs have to focus on content everyone can play, and have little time to make everything unique for everyone. This would mean everyone would be getting less overall, compared to if everything was made for everyone where its easier to give everyone everything. You are ultimately asking for less on the Klingon side in the long run.
    Do you not understand that you are comparing apples and oranges? You are attempting to use polling data (from possibly nonscientific polls) from another game completely unrelated to Star Trek, about a completely unrelated species to Klingons, and suggesting that it tells us anything about why people don't play as KDF in STO.

    Furthermore, I already agreed on the concept that some people do not want to play Klingons because of their philosophy. How many? No one knows! But why talk about them? Those people can't be won over! There is no point to discussing them, because the KDF philosophy isn't changing at all.

    Now how many players don't play KDF because they've determined there is nothing unique enough to the playstyle of KDF and KDF ships to warrant it? Those are the ones that matter here, and those are the ones that can be won over with changes to ships and mechanics if they make the KDF have some unique toys again.
    Star Trek isn't some magical, holy, thing, whose fanbase shares zero qualities with people from any other group in the world. There is nothing apples and oranges about comparing things in Trek canon, to those outside Trek canon. You are comparing two races whose culture is exactly the same, and both have the same general lack of interest from overall people, for similar reasons.

    And again, we are talking about people who wont play Klingons because of the philosophy, and that is generally the number one reason why people don't play other characters in games. Which relates to KDF faction numbers being low, which is the point of this discussion.
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,450 Arc User
    It is obvious that the KDF side needs the following:

    A) Playable species - Ferengi is a good option for inclusion as a playable species - They are neutral

    B) This one is one of the main upgrades needed - More uniform options, especially for flag officers

    C) Different facial expressions and definitely more hair styles options

    See some examples:

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    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,450 Arc User
    edited December 2020
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    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
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