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Please, Cryptic, an off switch... or stop misrepresenting the game

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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,511 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    Why is it that every time I suggest something, people quote me, modify my proposal in a way that makes it more complicated, and then argue that it's too complicated?

    I specifically proposed the effects being reduced in size (or in the case of the beacon, intensity and duration) because a standardized, server-wide fix to those would probably be very easy to implement. And meanwhile (as the person talking about GW rightly pointed out) doesn't impact the gameplay at all.

    GW for example... in most cases (except maybe big cruisers) the GW artwork is larger than player ships. Reducing to 1/2 size (as a random example) would still have it very visible but make it less obtrusive.

    Making the "levels" editable on user side, etc. would be much more complex.

    Actually, what I was pointing out was that adding an on/off-switch that would make it possible to
    - either remove all visual effects that stem from other players' actions
    - keep things as it is
    would be much simpler.

    And it would hardly hurt. The GW example shows that it's only a very, very small minority of abilities that are relevant to other players. The rest can just be disabled. All of it can be disabled with very small sacrifices to clarity of what is happening and why, if it has to be kept simple.

    Sure, development would have different levels of difficulty.

    Easiest, but not the best:

    Option to completely disable all visuals except basic beams, cannons, torpedoes. Possibly a few exceptions like tyken and gravity well that help situational awareness.

    A little harder:

    Split options for your own visuals vs. other player visuals

    Much more work:

    Create new toned-down visuals, possibly multiple versions, for "in-between" visual settings (low, medium, ...)

    Cryptic probably will choose "none of the above" and ignore our wishes completely, but when making the request we can ask for the hardest option.

    If they ever decide to do this, it doesn't need to all be working at once. The "low" and "medium" options could go into a work queue where some visuals get updated before others. At first "low" and "medium" would be a mix of the new visuals for some powers and either off or "high" for others.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Here he is. Knock him down if you must.

    https://youtu.be/nauLgZISozs
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,511 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Why is it that every time I suggest something, people quote me, modify my proposal in a way that makes it more complicated, and then argue that it's too complicated?

    I specifically proposed the effects being reduced in size (or in the case of the beacon, intensity and duration) because a standardized, server-wide fix to those would probably be very easy to implement. And meanwhile (as the person talking about GW rightly pointed out) doesn't impact the gameplay at all.

    GW for example... in most cases (except maybe big cruisers) the GW artwork is larger than player ships. Reducing to 1/2 size (as a random example) would still have it very visible but make it less obtrusive.

    Making the "levels" editable on user side, etc. would be much more complex.

    Actually, what I was pointing out was that adding an on/off-switch that would make it possible to
    - either remove all visual effects that stem from other players' actions
    - keep things as it is
    would be much simpler.

    And it would hardly hurt. The GW example shows that it's only a very, very small minority of abilities that are relevant to other players. The rest can just be disabled. All of it can be disabled with very small sacrifices to clarity of what is happening and why, if it has to be kept simple.

    adding an on/off switch, that only applies to SOME abilities, is not simpler than changing all of the abilities' default presentations.

    Hard to say. "Don't send this 'show visual' command / data to the client" seems easier to me than having artists create new visuals.

    Maybe that's because I'm a developer not a visual artist :)
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,511 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Why is it that every time I suggest something, people quote me, modify my proposal in a way that makes it more complicated, and then argue that it's too complicated?

    I specifically proposed the effects being reduced in size (or in the case of the beacon, intensity and duration) because a standardized, server-wide fix to those would probably be very easy to implement. And meanwhile (as the person talking about GW rightly pointed out) doesn't impact the gameplay at all.

    GW for example... in most cases (except maybe big cruisers) the GW artwork is larger than player ships. Reducing to 1/2 size (as a random example) would still have it very visible but make it less obtrusive.

    Making the "levels" editable on user side, etc. would be much more complex.

    Actually, what I was pointing out was that adding an on/off-switch that would make it possible to
    - either remove all visual effects that stem from other players' actions
    - keep things as it is
    would be much simpler.

    And it would hardly hurt. The GW example shows that it's only a very, very small minority of abilities that are relevant to other players. The rest can just be disabled. All of it can be disabled with very small sacrifices to clarity of what is happening and why, if it has to be kept simple.

    adding an on/off switch, that only applies to SOME abilities, is not simpler than changing all of the abilities' default presentations.

    Hard to say. "Don't send this 'show visual' command / data to the client" seems easier to me than having artists create new visuals.

    Maybe that's because I'm a developer not a visual artist :)

    I was envisioning something like telling the existing visuals to display at reduced dimensions (mathematically); essentially, zooming out.

    In theory re-scaling visuals seems easy, but I have no idea how effect visuals are set up for STO's engine. With 10-year-old spaghetti code the visuals might be hard-coded into the engine instead of using data files. Only Cryptic knows for sure.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Why is it that every time I suggest something, people quote me, modify my proposal in a way that makes it more complicated, and then argue that it's too complicated?

    I specifically proposed the effects being reduced in size (or in the case of the beacon, intensity and duration) because a standardized, server-wide fix to those would probably be very easy to implement. And meanwhile (as the person talking about GW rightly pointed out) doesn't impact the gameplay at all.

    GW for example... in most cases (except maybe big cruisers) the GW artwork is larger than player ships. Reducing to 1/2 size (as a random example) would still have it very visible but make it less obtrusive.

    Making the "levels" editable on user side, etc. would be much more complex.

    Actually, what I was pointing out was that adding an on/off-switch that would make it possible to
    - either remove all visual effects that stem from other players' actions
    - keep things as it is
    would be much simpler.

    And it would hardly hurt. The GW example shows that it's only a very, very small minority of abilities that are relevant to other players. The rest can just be disabled. All of it can be disabled with very small sacrifices to clarity of what is happening and why, if it has to be kept simple.

    adding an on/off switch, that only applies to SOME abilities, is not simpler than changing all of the abilities' default presentations.

    That is why I said that, if necessary to keep things simple, they could choose to only add the option that allows players to disable all visual abilities. No choices, only whether you want to see everything or nothing.

    That's arguably simpler than toning down some things or even all things. Moreover, the issue is that abilities that are used together cause too much visual spam (bar a few exceptions such as the Maquis raider trait and Blinded by the light). Toning them down would require looking at all the different combinations to figure out what is used together and what needs to be toned down by how much.

    That is why I believe that a simple on/off-switch for all abilities would be the easiest to implement.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    Of course, I'm no Dev. This is simply my idea.

    Maybe one of the Devs could tell us something about what would be the most practical thing to do.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • mikecobalt#1974 mikecobalt Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    I agree also. The More of This we get and less of the Dialog, Interiors, Story and Characters this game goes the more and more it becomes "Eve". After the missions gaining another point its always "Space Points". I do realize this is a "Game" and some visual "Extremes" are becoming usual as such, but this is "Star Trek" based on a very well known genre; it's not right. Star Trek, not Eve.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Why is it that every time I suggest something, people quote me, modify my proposal in a way that makes it more complicated, and then argue that it's too complicated?

    I specifically proposed the effects being reduced in size (or in the case of the beacon, intensity and duration) because a standardized, server-wide fix to those would probably be very easy to implement. And meanwhile (as the person talking about GW rightly pointed out) doesn't impact the gameplay at all.

    GW for example... in most cases (except maybe big cruisers) the GW artwork is larger than player ships. Reducing to 1/2 size (as a random example) would still have it very visible but make it less obtrusive.

    Making the "levels" editable on user side, etc. would be much more complex.

    Actually, what I was pointing out was that adding an on/off-switch that would make it possible to
    - either remove all visual effects that stem from other players' actions
    - keep things as it is
    would be much simpler.

    And it would hardly hurt. The GW example shows that it's only a very, very small minority of abilities that are relevant to other players. The rest can just be disabled. All of it can be disabled with very small sacrifices to clarity of what is happening and why, if it has to be kept simple.

    adding an on/off switch, that only applies to SOME abilities, is not simpler than changing all of the abilities' default presentations.

    That is why I said that, if necessary to keep things simple, they could choose to only add the option that allows players to disable all visual abilities. No choices, only whether you want to see everything or nothing.

    That's arguably simpler than toning down some things or even all things. Moreover, the issue is that abilities that are used together cause too much visual spam (bar a few exceptions such as the Maquis raider trait and Blinded by the light). Toning them down would require looking at all the different combinations to figure out what is used together and what needs to be toned down by how much.

    That is why I believe that a simple on/off-switch for all abilities would be the easiest to implement.

    once again ignoring what I said and claiming to improve upon it, and then arguing against said improvement, at the same time.

    Changing the physical size of effects would not change how they interact with each other, nor would it change the gameplay in any way.

    That's not what I'm doing. Where did you even get that idea?

    I'm going to make this real simple:

    If most players use a gravity well combined with a Xindi Vortex thingy, visual spam may not be that bad. Neither ability would have to be 'toned down' much.
    If most players use a gravity well combined with Kemocite explosions and the T6 Hernandez trait, it'll likely be worse. Gravity well would have to be toned down, or the Hernandez spores, or both, or all of them including the Kemocite explosions.


    Look again at the last picture the OP posted. Do you think that just toning down abilities is going to help if five players are each activating three or four things? It is the combination of a dozen effects, all used at once, that is causing the problem.

    You'd have to tone them down so much that they might well become near invisible if they're used in isolation. Might as well add that much simpler option then.


    And, once more, players don't need to see other players' spam. It doesn't add anything, at all in at least 99% of the cases.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    I agree also. The More of This we get and less of the Dialog, Interiors, Story and Characters this game goes the more and more it becomes "Eve". After the missions gaining another point its always "Space Points". I do realize this is a "Game" and some visual "Extremes" are becoming usual as such, but this is "Star Trek" based on a very well known genre; it's not right. Star Trek, not Eve.

    Well, it's funny that you mention dialogue.

    I've lost track of how often I've been annoyed by a Risa official asking me to beam down when I've just beamed up, Kaol taking my ship to the Allied zone when I'm pressing F to pick up items while flying (happened today again) or briefings that you've read a million times already (the one in Crystalline entity can hardly be read in the few seconds you get, the one in Cure space even pop ups after the briefing countdown is finished).

    Such spam can be almost as annoying as the type discussed here - at least the visual spam comes from actually doing something.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,435 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    A-freaking-men!

    Siezure-enducing particle effects are another thing this game has that the shows were not about. Yet some white knights with brown stuff all around their noses and mouths say we don't need exploration because that's not what the shows were about.

    Som is not a white knight, stop attacking him, and leave him alone! Please return to the topic of thread instead of getting it derailed and closed by mods.
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,435 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Also, I agree with the OP with an off switch toggle. No, that art is not a misrepresentation of the game since it is not actual gameplay. If it was actual gameplay, you would have a point.
    Post edited by sthe91 on
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • mikecobalt#1974 mikecobalt Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    I agree also. The More of This we get and less of the Dialog, Interiors, Story and Characters this game goes the more and more it becomes "Eve". After the missions gaining another point its always "Space Points". I do realize this is a "Game" and some visual "Extremes" are becoming usual as such, but this is "Star Trek" based on a very well known genre; it's not right. Star Trek, not Eve.

    Well, it's funny that you mention dialogue.

    I've lost track of how often I've been annoyed by a Risa official asking me to beam down when I've just beamed up, Kaol taking my ship to the Allied zone when I'm pressing F to pick up items while flying (happened today again) or briefings that you've read a million times already (the one in Crystalline entity can hardly be read in the few seconds you get, the one in Cure space even pop ups after the briefing countdown is finished).

    Such spam can be almost as annoying as the type discussed here - at least the visual spam comes from actually doing something.

    :) Ya, those Do get annoying. What I meant was in the missions. Consider the TV shows and Movies, the conversations throughout that moves the *Story, forward. Stages in game like the debate between the two Cardassians over the ones innocents. Or the short convo's visiting the Voyager during the Delta Quadrant. Those are very good, They're story, they're "Star Trek". There will always be *Shooting, Flying, Blowing up whatever but lessening the parts that do reflect the genre and adding more of the "Typical Internet Gamey" just lessens STO closer to the other games. Most (By Far) of the Best episodes in the entire genre contain no ship combat at all, just a good story with Depth. Just yesterday in the Delta Quadrant fighting the Vaadwaur more then a couple times the screen was total White nothing else and that character Certainly isn't high enough level to have any Fancy abilities. Keep the flying and shooting as the adventures come, but don't lose or lessen the story (That's Eve).
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    I agree also. The More of This we get and less of the Dialog, Interiors, Story and Characters this game goes the more and more it becomes "Eve". After the missions gaining another point its always "Space Points". I do realize this is a "Game" and some visual "Extremes" are becoming usual as such, but this is "Star Trek" based on a very well known genre; it's not right. Star Trek, not Eve.

    Well, it's funny that you mention dialogue.

    I've lost track of how often I've been annoyed by a Risa official asking me to beam down when I've just beamed up, Kaol taking my ship to the Allied zone when I'm pressing F to pick up items while flying (happened today again) or briefings that you've read a million times already (the one in Crystalline entity can hardly be read in the few seconds you get, the one in Cure space even pop ups after the briefing countdown is finished).

    Such spam can be almost as annoying as the type discussed here - at least the visual spam comes from actually doing something.

    :) Ya, those Do get annoying. What I meant was in the missions. Consider the TV shows and Movies, the conversations throughout that moves the *Story, forward. Stages in game like the debate between the two Cardassians over the ones innocents. Or the short convo's visiting the Voyager during the Delta Quadrant. Those are very good, They're story, they're "Star Trek". There will always be *Shooting, Flying, Blowing up whatever but lessening the parts that do reflect the genre and adding more of the "Typical Internet Gamey" just lessens STO closer to the other games. Most (By Far) of the Best episodes in the entire genre contain no ship combat at all, just a good story with Depth. Just yesterday in the Delta Quadrant fighting the Vaadwaur more then a couple times the screen was total White nothing else and that character Certainly isn't high enough level to have any Fancy abilities. Keep the flying and shooting as the adventures come, but don't lose or lessen the story (That's Eve).

    I agree that such more in-depth stories would be nice.

    But it'd probably be difficult to sell. Which is why the Foundry was so great to have.


    The screen being total white might be intentional by the way. There is a Vaadwaur patrol where you suffer from solar flares, IIRC, the screen becomes white in that mission (not sure, been a few months since I last played it).
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    I have played several games in the past that featured client side over-rides that allowed changes in visual aspects. The features were never removed, the game system wasn't altered at all, the system was client side and only effected the players ability to see them. We already have a few effects like this, but I don't see Cryptic going through and doing this for all these effects, even though the player base would obviously love to have it.

    The time focus is clearly split between new game content and development of new items for sale. Things like this or fixing lag just don't seem to be priorities so I wouldn't count on it. Personally, if this feature were available, I would certainly use it.
    sthe91 wrote: »
    Som is not a white knight

    That is the single funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. If you were intending to be funny.. you sir nailed it.

    If you were serious well.. :lol:
    Insert witty signature line here.
This discussion has been closed.