"The Centre Cannot Hold": 9/10. Everything WORKS, subfactions are properly acknowledged. It maybe could have used a bit of polish here and there but nothing's out of place. The only real criticism I have is that the middle stage where you're jumping from system to system fighting fires is a bit of a drag.
"Khitomer Discord" Fedside: 7/10. A decent mission whose script could have used a third draft. In particular, where does the idiot Chairman get off yelling at Admiral McAwesomename, Ten-Time Savior of the Known Universe, when he's the one who made common cause with a terrorist to overthrow a member head of state, and why is there no option for my Fed Rom to simply behead this honorless traitor on the spot?
And Adet'pa could have used an extra line to say, "Hi, Admiral McAwesome, we met on DS9 during the whole Hur'q thing," because I had to Google her to figure out where my PC knew her from. Plus side, Rekha Sharma is really pretty as a Klingon, and I like her getting another Star Trek role after how criminally DSC underused her.
"Khitomer Discord" KDF-side: 4/10. All of the above, plus wallbanger due to Va'Kel Shon being Lawful Stupid based solely on the change of player faction. I can understand that idiot product of nepotism Koren sticking with Jimmy Pok* over Admiral McAwesome, Hero of the Universe, but not Shon, the guy who told his own ambassador to shut his pie-hole when it was the right thing to do.
* Who, sincerity mode, makes perfect sense here, by the way: the Chairman tried to overthrow him with Droola, he was probably clued in by Aakar, and likely went, "yInga'chuq the Alliance, I won't support a super-nation that doesn't support me".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Anyone else notice how part of the second mission is similar to Revenge of the Sith. A Chancellor turns his troops on the heros and frames them for in this case an attack on innocents.
I wouldn't be suprised if Cryptic did a cutscene where J'mpok goes "Commander so and so, the time has come. Execute order X."
"Yes my lord."
Then later when we confront him, Martok says "In the name of the Klingon Empire and the Khitomer Alliance. You are under arrest Chancellor."
The Force of the Ascending Evil Satellite is strong with this one.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Anyone else notice how part of the second mission is similar to Revenge of the Sith. A Chancellor turns his troops on the heros and frames them for in this case an attack on innocents.
I wouldn't be suprised if Cryptic did a cutscene where J'mpok goes "Commander so and so, the time has come. Execute order X."
"Yes my lord."
Then later when we confront him, Martok says "In the name of the Klingon Empire and the Khitomer Alliance. You are under arrest Chancellor."
"Are you threatening me? General?"
"The Council will decide your fate."
"I AM THE COUNCIL."
"Not yet."
"Its treason then." Pulls out a Mek'leth.
Lol, this story's equivalent of Order 66 was when J'mpok tried to kill us with the Mycelial weapon.
Since when in ST has shields ever made a difference against a SUPERweapon?
Lets see...
TOS S1 - "Balance of Terror" Outpost 4's shield deflects one full Plasma Blast from the Romulan Warbird (said attack blew the Deflector Shied out, but the Roms had to fire again to destroy the Base...)
TOS S2 - "The Doomsday Machine" - The 1701 Deflectors are effective against a pure anti-proton weapon that can slice entire planets apart. They take about 5 hits before the shields drop.
TOS S2 - The Changeling" - The 1701's shields absorb four hits before dropping - and per Spock, each hit is equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes and the Bolts travel as Warp 15.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture: The new 1701's shield deflect/absorb one of V'Ger's full Plasma Bolts. The same Bolts that took out (IE "Patterned for Data Storage") three new Klingon K'Tangas in one shot each and also destroyed (IE "Patterned for Data Storage") the Epsilon 9 station in one shot.
So...are 4 examples enough?
In TNG the shields of the Enterprise-D is able to withstand the effects of the Crystalline Entity, considering it can ravage an entire planet in minutes.. I consider it a super weapon?
Also in VOY the shields of Voyager was able to briefly withstand the creation/formation of the universe.. lol.
That's also why he sent a full sized armada against us, trying to bombard us from orbit, instead of challenging us to a Klingon honor duel.
Because the latter didn't do him a damn bit of good with Martok (which... may or may not have been his fault? It seems laying the credit/blame/etc. for Martok's survival on Torg is only partly accurate now), so he figured "Kill them all, let the gods sort... wait, we don't have gods, we killed them... YOU GET THE IDEA!"
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
However, I agree what J'ula says about J'mpok, mostly. Had no problem with that J'mpok was "evil" and became the villain in the end. But since the story is not over, I won't say to much since the end of the arc is still a mystery for us players.
With everything said and done; I overall liked the missions, kept me good entertained.
It reminds me of something J'mpok said during the Temporal arc, that it was just one side of the circle, and the other side would come around and see hostilities again. Obviously, since he's willing to cause them. Also, again, I think the big thrust of what's going to happen is in the one thing she says about leadership of the Klingons. She's not gonna lead them to 'bring the Federation to its knees' again (especially since oftentimes she's stuck with a fed, and has the decency to rescue them, that's certainly a change from things she's said right in these missions even), but did mention that J'mpok seized the position of Chancellor illegally and dishonorably. a 'fight to the death' where the 'dead' person is quite glaringly, at this point, still alive. One who was almost certainly a better ally over the years, than J'mpok not holding his Empire back from going into a needless war manipulated by B'vat and whomever. I bet a lot of people would rather see Martok back as Chancellor, and since they have the actor now to VA him, well... [/quote]
The cutscenes and environments were amazing. I think people are getting carried away complaining about the part where you stand and watch. It was clearly to show the stakes (watching the people disintegrate), ramp up the tension and show J'ula extending the olive branch; even if it was a little cliche, I think it did the job.
I don't get how people are shocked by J'mpok's betrayal. J'ula was bang on about his character, he has been the bad guy for a long time from instigating a new war with the federation as he began grabbing up territory; one of the key reasons the fed didn't believe the undine story as it seemed an unlikely excuse to continue existing land grab. He is politically ruthless having already disposed of Martok once in an entirely suspect manner. I was always more surprised that he accepted alliance with the federation in the first place, and only seemed to do so because he was backed into a corner over the issue. The idea that he would try and orchestrate the death of our captain, Martok and the increasingly popular J'ula seems entirely in character for him. J'ula has come from a time where the federation seemed like a looming existential threat, she has not experienced the things that have driven the alliance, and her views on 'klingon'ness are similarly of her time. She is however adaptable and apparently quite reasonable, looking to have worked to build alliances. She clearly recognises Martok (not herself) as well as the faith of Kahless (who has fought alongside the federation now) and I see it likely Martok would sway her towards understanding the strength the new alliances bring.
I understand the frustrations with captains apparently just forgetting our character's long war record and juggling the idiot ball at the end though.
I understand the frustrations with captains apparently just forgetting our character's long war record and juggling the idiot ball at the end though.
^^^
Except that Star Trek (across ALL series) has done exactly that time and time again for the sake of 'drama' - so yeah, why should STO be any different?
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I always find it funny to see this kind or argument posted(not just here) because it implies that most people think extra judicial killings are allowable, when most of the world considers it morally and ethically wrong.
I mean we were in the middle of a battle to the death, and then the game suddenly turns her blue so we can't finish the job. Earlier and later in the same mission will kill other people who are less dangerous and less guilty.
Besides, I was playing as a klingon. Killing her in battle would be doing her a favor, according to my culture, because the alternative is the shame of being captured.
So I guess you were equally offended when STO had us switch sides and help Obisek?
You know, Obisek, the known terrorist who raided a classified and off limits research station to steal Thalaron weapons so he could use them to commit mass genocide against populated worlds in his war against the Tal Shiar? The guy we switched sides for, and teamed up with, because we discovered a greater evil? You know.... the exact same thing that is going on right now with J'Ula?
That snake Obisek, who used us as a decoy for the Tal Shiar after we generously spared his life? You bet I was offended. But at least sparing Obisek didn't require us to attack our allies.
Go watch TOS and TNG again, and see how the pros do it.
Make it up as they went along? Contradict things that were previously established for plot convenience?
We could just do what people are doing in this thread and state what we think happened on Qu'Vat, based on a far off visual, and an anecdote about how it means they're dead down there, without even considering that it still could've taken several minutes to spread there as well. Time for people to see it coming, but nowhere near enough to evacuate them without prior planning.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Just noticed something after multiple replays. When is the first time J'mpok tries to kill you? that might actually be as early as when you go to the Ceron system after leaving the Great Hall.
> @crypticarmsman said: > (Quote) > ^^^ > Except that Star Trek (across ALL series) has done exactly that time and time again for the sake of 'drama' - so yeah, why should STO be any different?
To which the obvious counter-argument is: If it was wrong those times, what makes it suddenly right this time?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I always find it funny to see this kind or argument posted(not just here) because it implies that most people think extra judicial killings are allowable, when most of the world considers it morally and ethically wrong.
I mean we were in the middle of a battle to the death, and then the game suddenly turns her blue so we can't finish the job. Earlier and later in the same mission will kill other people who are less dangerous and less guilty.
Besides, I was playing as a klingon. Killing her in battle would be doing her a favor, according to my culture, because the alternative is the shame of being captured.
Exactly. It's not that it would be moral to do it in real life, it's that particular PCs don't have a real-world-human moral and ethical background. Although personally I think it applies more to the Alliance Chairman than to Droola: I know Morgan, my Fed Rom, would take his actions as a slight to her personal honor, her mnhei'sahe, to be manipulated in that way, and seek to avenge it. Never mind the fact that, hello? It's treason against the Alliance! MORGAN.(draws honor blade) "The penalty for treason is death."
Eleya, my Bajoran, probably wouldn't kill Droola out of hand, but she sure as phekk wouldn't let her run around free, either. She'd be in zipcuffs during the ground portion and then spend the space fight cooling her heels in USS Bajor's brig. Ditto the Chairman, because Prime Directive: Just say NO to regime change.
Brokosh, my Lethean ex-mercenary? He'd rip what he needed to know out of their minds when he had a free moment, then shoot them both in the head and throw them out the nearest airlock. (telepathic PCs break so many plots in this game if used properly XD)
Of all those, Eleya is the closest to what I personally would do in real life, and even she probably wouldn't resist the urge to work off a little anger by tuning them up a little. Why would you expect a PC to act like a human if the PC isn't human?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @crypticarmsman said:
> (Quote)
> ^^^
> Except that Star Trek (across ALL series) has done exactly that time and time again for the sake of 'drama' - so yeah, why should STO be any different?
To which the obvious counter-argument is:
If it was wrong those times, what makes it suddenly right this time?
Look - in the end Star Trek is ALL just a made up fantasy with some science aspects thrown in. It has always been most concerned about telling whatever story is being told at the time. It has NEVER EVER been 100% internally consistent; and ALL incarnations of Trek have had no issues bending or violating ANY previous continuity if said continuity interferes with a story narrative. <--- And there's 100% NOTHING wrong with that as it's always been a part of the 'franchise'. For them the story is teh thing, and they're more worried about it being entertaining in the end; then being consistent with something mentioned 1 to 50 years before in some previous episode somewhere.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
My concern with this story is more mechanical, and more thinking ahead into the future.
They started an arc in which the most likely outcome is going to have to be Martok taking the chancellorship and J'mpok dying. How these two things happen can vary. My guess is they'll be following the rule of cable crime shows: the highest paid guest actor is the killer. That means Aakar has to be the big bad, which means we'll probably have Aakar kill J'mpok along the way somehow, and it'll be Martok killing Aakar with J'ula being the frenemy in the manner Sela was.
Regardless though, now J'mpok has to die. And unless Martok dies along the way, he's got to be the new Chancellor.
The problem is J'mpok is the quest-giver for the Klingon faction in the same manner as Quinn and D'tan. Replace him with Martok, and now they have to pull J.G. Hertzler on to voice lines for all future seasons of STO if for no other reason than to point Klingon characters to the appropriate star system to start the plot.
And given how the last time we saw Worf, he said nothing and had to be name dropped by Martok, I'm guessing they had issues bringing on Michael Dorn again.
Whatever the reason, I don't know, that event shows they want to be in a position where the characters who are glorified signposts who point the player in the direction of the plot are voiced by the generic actors they use for everybody. Thanks to writing themselves in a corner, they're now in a position where this role is going to be filled by a more expensive actor.
And sure, J.G. Hertzler isn't that expensive and Cryptic probably can afford him long term. But, this lack of planning ahead in and of itself is the concern. It implies they're 'defying expectations' in the moment without a long term plan. (Which is incidentally why that other scifi franchise is hated right now.)
I suspect the reason that J'ula was able to rally such support and loyalty from the contemporary Klingons is that, as you say, J'ula was actually correct about J'mpok.
It's been brought up multiple times that only a few houses fully support Jm'pok. the rest are against him or neutral.
All J'Ula had to do was ask who wants to kill J'mpok to get allies.
I suspect the reason that J'ula was able to rally such support and loyalty from the contemporary Klingons is that, as you say, J'ula was actually correct about J'mpok.
It's been brought up multiple times that only a few houses fully support Jm'pok. the rest are against him or neutral.
All J'Ula had to do was ask who wants to kill J'mpok to get allies.
Even Martok himself basically says, look, we've been through four major wars in a row in ten years, so whatever my disagreements with the incumbent, I'd rather support him if I can do so honorably just for the sake of keeping the Empire stable.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Which does also make sense when you consider how Klingon culture works, Kahless essentially said there's times when one must put the good of the Empire above the desire for personal glory and battle.
Martok pretty much says, that while disagrees with J'mpok, J'mpok has kept the empire together and that is the reason why Martok doesn't challenge him.
A lot of people here in these forums see to forget that there are times when a Klingon can say "now is not the time to fight" and not loose their honor.
Martok never wanted to be chancelor the first time, only did it because Worf basicly trapped in a corner and forced him to take on the job (a job Worf ducked out of). Martok knows you need a politician in charge to leave warriors to get on with fighting.
Comments
And Adet'pa could have used an extra line to say, "Hi, Admiral McAwesome, we met on DS9 during the whole Hur'q thing," because I had to Google her to figure out where my PC knew her from. Plus side, Rekha Sharma is really pretty as a Klingon, and I like her getting another Star Trek role after how criminally DSC underused her.
* Who, sincerity mode, makes perfect sense here, by the way: the Chairman tried to overthrow him with Droola, he was probably clued in by Aakar, and likely went, "yInga'chuq the Alliance, I won't support a super-nation that doesn't support me".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I wouldn't be suprised if Cryptic did a cutscene where J'mpok goes "Commander so and so, the time has come. Execute order X."
"Yes my lord."
Then later when we confront him, Martok says "In the name of the Klingon Empire and the Khitomer Alliance. You are under arrest Chancellor."
"Are you threatening me? General?"
"The Council will decide your fate."
"I AM THE COUNCIL."
"Not yet."
"Its treason then." Pulls out a Mek'leth.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
In TNG the shields of the Enterprise-D is able to withstand the effects of the Crystalline Entity, considering it can ravage an entire planet in minutes.. I consider it a super weapon?
Also in VOY the shields of Voyager was able to briefly withstand the creation/formation of the universe.. lol.
Because the latter didn't do him a damn bit of good with Martok (which... may or may not have been his fault? It seems laying the credit/blame/etc. for Martok's survival on Torg is only partly accurate now), so he figured "Kill them all, let the gods sort... wait, we don't have gods, we killed them... YOU GET THE IDEA!"
"There's No Way Like Poway!"
Real Join Date: October 2010
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It reminds me of something J'mpok said during the Temporal arc, that it was just one side of the circle, and the other side would come around and see hostilities again. Obviously, since he's willing to cause them. Also, again, I think the big thrust of what's going to happen is in the one thing she says about leadership of the Klingons. She's not gonna lead them to 'bring the Federation to its knees' again (especially since oftentimes she's stuck with a fed, and has the decency to rescue them, that's certainly a change from things she's said right in these missions even), but did mention that J'mpok seized the position of Chancellor illegally and dishonorably. a 'fight to the death' where the 'dead' person is quite glaringly, at this point, still alive. One who was almost certainly a better ally over the years, than J'mpok not holding his Empire back from going into a needless war manipulated by B'vat and whomever. I bet a lot of people would rather see Martok back as Chancellor, and since they have the actor now to VA him, well... [/quote]
The cutscenes and environments were amazing. I think people are getting carried away complaining about the part where you stand and watch. It was clearly to show the stakes (watching the people disintegrate), ramp up the tension and show J'ula extending the olive branch; even if it was a little cliche, I think it did the job.
I don't get how people are shocked by J'mpok's betrayal. J'ula was bang on about his character, he has been the bad guy for a long time from instigating a new war with the federation as he began grabbing up territory; one of the key reasons the fed didn't believe the undine story as it seemed an unlikely excuse to continue existing land grab. He is politically ruthless having already disposed of Martok once in an entirely suspect manner. I was always more surprised that he accepted alliance with the federation in the first place, and only seemed to do so because he was backed into a corner over the issue. The idea that he would try and orchestrate the death of our captain, Martok and the increasingly popular J'ula seems entirely in character for him. J'ula has come from a time where the federation seemed like a looming existential threat, she has not experienced the things that have driven the alliance, and her views on 'klingon'ness are similarly of her time. She is however adaptable and apparently quite reasonable, looking to have worked to build alliances. She clearly recognises Martok (not herself) as well as the faith of Kahless (who has fought alongside the federation now) and I see it likely Martok would sway her towards understanding the strength the new alliances bring.
I understand the frustrations with captains apparently just forgetting our character's long war record and juggling the idiot ball at the end though.
Except that Star Trek (across ALL series) has done exactly that time and time again for the sake of 'drama' - so yeah, why should STO be any different?
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I mean we were in the middle of a battle to the death, and then the game suddenly turns her blue so we can't finish the job. Earlier and later in the same mission will kill other people who are less dangerous and less guilty.
Besides, I was playing as a klingon. Killing her in battle would be doing her a favor, according to my culture, because the alternative is the shame of being captured.
That snake Obisek, who used us as a decoy for the Tal Shiar after we generously spared his life? You bet I was offended. But at least sparing Obisek didn't require us to attack our allies.
Make it up as they went along? Contradict things that were previously established for plot convenience?
We could just do what people are doing in this thread and state what we think happened on Qu'Vat, based on a far off visual, and an anecdote about how it means they're dead down there, without even considering that it still could've taken several minutes to spread there as well. Time for people to see it coming, but nowhere near enough to evacuate them without prior planning.
My character Tsin'xing
> (Quote)
> ^^^
> Except that Star Trek (across ALL series) has done exactly that time and time again for the sake of 'drama' - so yeah, why should STO be any different?
To which the obvious counter-argument is:
If it was wrong those times, what makes it suddenly right this time?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
MORGAN. (draws honor blade) "The penalty for treason is death."
Eleya, my Bajoran, probably wouldn't kill Droola out of hand, but she sure as phekk wouldn't let her run around free, either. She'd be in zipcuffs during the ground portion and then spend the space fight cooling her heels in USS Bajor's brig. Ditto the Chairman, because Prime Directive: Just say NO to regime change.
Brokosh, my Lethean ex-mercenary? He'd rip what he needed to know out of their minds when he had a free moment, then shoot them both in the head and throw them out the nearest airlock. (telepathic PCs break so many plots in this game if used properly XD)
Of all those, Eleya is the closest to what I personally would do in real life, and even she probably wouldn't resist the urge to work off a little anger by tuning them up a little. Why would you expect a PC to act like a human if the PC isn't human?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Look - in the end Star Trek is ALL just a made up fantasy with some science aspects thrown in. It has always been most concerned about telling whatever story is being told at the time. It has NEVER EVER been 100% internally consistent; and ALL incarnations of Trek have had no issues bending or violating ANY previous continuity if said continuity interferes with a story narrative. <--- And there's 100% NOTHING wrong with that as it's always been a part of the 'franchise'. For them the story is teh thing, and they're more worried about it being entertaining in the end; then being consistent with something mentioned 1 to 50 years before in some previous episode somewhere.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
They started an arc in which the most likely outcome is going to have to be Martok taking the chancellorship and J'mpok dying. How these two things happen can vary. My guess is they'll be following the rule of cable crime shows: the highest paid guest actor is the killer. That means Aakar has to be the big bad, which means we'll probably have Aakar kill J'mpok along the way somehow, and it'll be Martok killing Aakar with J'ula being the frenemy in the manner Sela was.
Regardless though, now J'mpok has to die. And unless Martok dies along the way, he's got to be the new Chancellor.
The problem is J'mpok is the quest-giver for the Klingon faction in the same manner as Quinn and D'tan. Replace him with Martok, and now they have to pull J.G. Hertzler on to voice lines for all future seasons of STO if for no other reason than to point Klingon characters to the appropriate star system to start the plot.
And given how the last time we saw Worf, he said nothing and had to be name dropped by Martok, I'm guessing they had issues bringing on Michael Dorn again.
Whatever the reason, I don't know, that event shows they want to be in a position where the characters who are glorified signposts who point the player in the direction of the plot are voiced by the generic actors they use for everybody. Thanks to writing themselves in a corner, they're now in a position where this role is going to be filled by a more expensive actor.
And sure, J.G. Hertzler isn't that expensive and Cryptic probably can afford him long term. But, this lack of planning ahead in and of itself is the concern. It implies they're 'defying expectations' in the moment without a long term plan. (Which is incidentally why that other scifi franchise is hated right now.)
All J'Ula had to do was ask who wants to kill J'mpok to get allies.
My character Tsin'xing
Even Martok himself basically says, look, we've been through four major wars in a row in ten years, so whatever my disagreements with the incumbent, I'd rather support him if I can do so honorably just for the sake of keeping the Empire stable.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Martok pretty much says, that while disagrees with J'mpok, J'mpok has kept the empire together and that is the reason why Martok doesn't challenge him.
A lot of people here in these forums see to forget that there are times when a Klingon can say "now is not the time to fight" and not loose their honor.