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On the issue of "unlimited player damage": effects and possible solution...
kiksken
Member Posts: 664 Arc User
Before you go in, and start being a total numbnut: this post is not about your sensitive feelings, but about actual issues that come with "unlimited player damage vs the environment (read: enemies and constructs).
This post came to be, as I read over the years, by fellow players that got hampered by this insane damage levels from some players.
Now that we got that out of the way...
Some issues caused by "unlimited player damage":
1) Many players are bummed out by folks dropping into their mission, their event, and simply erase the enemies/constructs in a fraction of time.
2) Enemies pose no threat any more.
3) Need for tanking and healing (Engineering/Science (Both basically ALSO turned into Tactical do to "unlimited player damage") no longer exists.
4) Line 3 adds to the fact, role-play is severely hampered.
5) Balance is an absolute black hole in favour of the player.
6) Often people can't get their mission done (where they need to kill something/destroy something) due to a "God Damage" player nuking it all.
There are other issues that come with it, but I think the most important would be these above.
Solution:
Extremely simple: Nerf outgoing damage.
All offensive statistics in combat are calculated when you attack a target, the target's defensive statistics are calculated, and subtracted from the attack damage value, leading to a value that is your final damage value.
This very value now can be altered, either positive (by adding damage (which is done in several cheats) to this very value), or negative (by lowering that value (basically, we turn the cheat backwards)).
Naturally, It is NOT the idea to use a cheat, of course.
This very simple line of code can be (and hopefully WILL be) hard coded into the game, to restore the issues to proper balance.
Now, many of you will say: "Hold up a sec: over the past 5 centuries I've been building up this character, I will give in massive amounts of work and tweaking, and I do not want that."
Well, first of all: yes, true, and so will I.
Not as much as some of you, I very much admit this, still, I too would have to give in tremendous amounts of damage, hard work, tweaking, but I do understand ALSO, it would be for the greater good.
Which grater good?
Well those in the community that do not care for your uber damage, those that get heavily affected by your damage and thus generally imbalancing their game, those that no longer can role-play their chosen career path because of your insane amounts of destructive powers.
Some claimed mistakenly that altering the final damage output value will affect other values.
NO, it would NOT affect any other value, save for the enemy's life time.
Lower damage = longer life for the opponent.
Which is just logical.
But it will not affect, say, your defence, your scanning, your movement speed, your turn rates, ...
The end damage value is a STAND ALONE value that CAN be altered without affecting any other skill or statistic.
If you want to comment, please do so, but refrain from things like "I do not want this."
What you want has nothing to do with this post.
Also, when you comment with a disagreement (which certainly is possible), motivate why or how your disagreement is charged.
Just because is not a valid motivation, if you get my point.
Also, if you have questions, please ask them.
Thank you.
This post came to be, as I read over the years, by fellow players that got hampered by this insane damage levels from some players.
Now that we got that out of the way...
Some issues caused by "unlimited player damage":
1) Many players are bummed out by folks dropping into their mission, their event, and simply erase the enemies/constructs in a fraction of time.
2) Enemies pose no threat any more.
3) Need for tanking and healing (Engineering/Science (Both basically ALSO turned into Tactical do to "unlimited player damage") no longer exists.
4) Line 3 adds to the fact, role-play is severely hampered.
5) Balance is an absolute black hole in favour of the player.
6) Often people can't get their mission done (where they need to kill something/destroy something) due to a "God Damage" player nuking it all.
There are other issues that come with it, but I think the most important would be these above.
Solution:
Extremely simple: Nerf outgoing damage.
All offensive statistics in combat are calculated when you attack a target, the target's defensive statistics are calculated, and subtracted from the attack damage value, leading to a value that is your final damage value.
This very value now can be altered, either positive (by adding damage (which is done in several cheats) to this very value), or negative (by lowering that value (basically, we turn the cheat backwards)).
Naturally, It is NOT the idea to use a cheat, of course.
This very simple line of code can be (and hopefully WILL be) hard coded into the game, to restore the issues to proper balance.
Now, many of you will say: "Hold up a sec: over the past 5 centuries I've been building up this character, I will give in massive amounts of work and tweaking, and I do not want that."
Well, first of all: yes, true, and so will I.
Not as much as some of you, I very much admit this, still, I too would have to give in tremendous amounts of damage, hard work, tweaking, but I do understand ALSO, it would be for the greater good.
Which grater good?
Well those in the community that do not care for your uber damage, those that get heavily affected by your damage and thus generally imbalancing their game, those that no longer can role-play their chosen career path because of your insane amounts of destructive powers.
Some claimed mistakenly that altering the final damage output value will affect other values.
NO, it would NOT affect any other value, save for the enemy's life time.
Lower damage = longer life for the opponent.
Which is just logical.
But it will not affect, say, your defence, your scanning, your movement speed, your turn rates, ...
The end damage value is a STAND ALONE value that CAN be altered without affecting any other skill or statistic.
If you want to comment, please do so, but refrain from things like "I do not want this."
What you want has nothing to do with this post.
Also, when you comment with a disagreement (which certainly is possible), motivate why or how your disagreement is charged.
Just because is not a valid motivation, if you get my point.
Also, if you have questions, please ask them.
Thank you.
Klingons don't get drunk.
They just get less sober.
They just get less sober.
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
3 - 4 : The trinity of tank, healer, dps is an ancient game design construct it is not a role-playing construct or Trek canon. The classic fantasy novels do not have levels, hit points, etc. and the Star Trek tv shows do not have the Defiant bringing along a Tank Ship and Heal Ship to go along with its DPS. The Enterprise (any of them) does not seek out new life with its DPS Ship and Heal Ship in tow.
Also, do you enjoy waiting 10 minutes in a TFO queue because no one wants to play tank or healer? I don't.
5 : The hero ship always wins, aside from a movie or two where they blow it up or crash it for dramatic effect.
Perhaps, but this is a game, and everyone should have a fair chance to be able to actually participate. All of the ships have their own mix of dps, heal, and tank, where each have their own categories that they (should) be better at.
Additionally, these things are just not fun:
1) Getting afk penalties/no reward because others melt and destroy stuff faster than you can get there.
2) Destroying what should be hard ships in a single firing salvo or dealing with what should require a full team solo without much effort.
I also want to reference First Contact where a Borg cube was soloing an entire fleet of ships until they were coordinated into a focused effort against it using "inside knowledge" (for lack of a better term). However, as I haven't watched 90% of the various series, and only the movies, I'm just going to leave it at that.
WoW has had to combat this many times, and their solution has always been a Stat Squish, meaning they affect the player stats to counter the power creep. In STO I'm not sure how that would work as most of these God Tier builds are a combination of synergies and player skill. I doubt that someone like me would get the most out of a God Tier build. I'm still tooling around maybe topping out around 30k at best in a parse run with mk XV gold gear on my main.
I admit it is annoying to get dropped into an Infected run with a God Ship melting everything in literally 2 seconds, and wonder why they're not putting that DPS to use in something like Korfez which is designed to challenge high end players.
I don't think this issue is as clear cut as you make it out to be either. So many things have to line up to GET to God Tier damage output. It is literally min/maxing to the extreme. You need these abilities, these traits, these skills, these weapon mods, these BOffs with these traits, these consoles to boost those stats...
It is literally a whole spreadsheet of data. I feel your solution may be felt a lot more on the lower end of the spectrum than the higher end, as it affects ALL players. Not just the God Tier. Allowing all those calculations to add up, and then just say "subtract X from the total" at the end, while it would solve the issue on paper, would probably have a far more dramatic impact on less optimized builds.
At the end of the day just shaving off an amout, either percentage or flat amount, will not really affect the top end. All it does is move the player away from the same goalpost. Instead of being at the 20 yard line doing a field goal kick, you move them back to the 50. And ultimately doesn't solve the problem. It just makes EVERYONE work that much harder for the same amount of effort, and given time the God Tier builds will find a way to make up the difference and we'll be right back to this same issue.
Slashing the final calculations honestly feels like the easy way out of a complex problem, and just kicking the can down the road.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
If you don't watch Trek, you might not be the best person to criticize the design of a Trek game
STO is Star Trek first, tactical combat simulator as a distant second. Most players are here to be Star Trek Hero Captain going pew pew pew, not to be a master of MMO tactical combat.
I agree that it sometimes happens in TFOs that a DPS Elite comes in and smashes things quickly, but I think any proposed changes for that should only to Normal difficulty TFOs, not for example story episodes.
If someone wants to be overpowered to the point that ships explode when they look at them funny, that seems OK to me for other content.
And yet several asked for this.
STO and ST have nothing in common, safe for the ships and folks.
It runs its own life, has its own stories, with its own system that was abandoned long ago.
Why have Tactical, Engineer or Science, if they ALL are DPS based careers?
No use nor need to separate careers, if these all do the same. Perhaps.
However, many actually want to play an actual career, and not everyone plays a tac.
As for the hero...
Life ain't a hero dream, heros are normal folks that DIE.
Superman just is no part of ST.
Besides, how incredibly boring is one, playing without any challenges.
Challenges is what games were made for.
Thank you for responding. Agreed.
Thank you for responding.
Actually, it does ONLY affect the top of the stick.
Up to X damage, ones damage in not affected.
Once one passes the limit then, his damage will be blocked off.
In my case, damage will be severely decreased on my old characters, while new up to NORMAL level 60 are untouched in their damage.
Actually, it is basically that simple, though.
No need to overcomplicate things where not needed, I think.
Besides, capping maximum damage never interferes with lower damage, it merely chops off excessive damage.
Well, it would be in effect no more that capping damage.
Simple, straightforward, easy to implement.
Thank you for responding.
Excuse me, but I do not quite get you here.
If I understood it correctly, you basically say: Most are here to 'role-play' rather that be a prime damage dealer.
Correct?
Then you seem to say: Damage reduce should only be in Normal TFO's?
Correct?
Lastly you appear to be saying: Max Damage character makers should better be playing other content, this game is something entirely different.
Is that correct?
Thank you for replying.
They just get less sober.
People ask for many features, often contradicting each other
Cryptic has tried updating PVP a couple of times in response to a few vocal players, but most players said no to PVP because we don't enjoy it in this game.
Cryptic has tried low combat levels in episodes, and many players complained that they were boring.
Cryptic has added failure conditions to normal-mode TFOs and most players stopped playing those TFOs because they did not want to learn any raid mechanics, they just wanted to pew pew pew.
What people seems willing to play and open their wallets for is a very casual mostly single-player game where group tactics are not needed.
That frustrates people who want content that requires tactical thinking and group cooperation, but Cryptic knows what the paying majority want most.
That's just me being pragmatic though, don't let me stop you from requesting whatever features you want. Your fun is not wrong, you just might not be offered it in this particular game.
I would think that is irrelevant.
Pick your source... Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5... all of them shorten combat for the tv/movies cause, let's face it, while we all want to see action, we don't want to be seeing 20 mins of the same action. Things die easier in these mediums because that is what will make them interesting and engaging. On the the other hand, to have them die like this in video games does not make them interesting or engaging. They make them boring, really fast. That's not good game design for longevity and sales.
Second, damage is not the problem and capping damage will not solve the issue. All you're doing is punishing those folks who have put the time and effort in to get to that level. In this game it's about 20% setup and gearing, the other 80% is in how you use that gear and fly the ship. Someone who puts in the proper time and effort to max out their gear, prepare a proper build for what they want to do, and master said build, will always do more than someone else who has not put in that same time, effort, and resources. A person in all mk xv golds designed for elite difficulty content complete with lobi gear and so on, will always outdo someone with a mk xii very rare budget build. Simply because the person with the mk xv golds is doing more damage than the other person does NOT mean they have wronged the guy that's using the mk xii budget build. It simply means the guy with the budget build has not yet put in the same amount of time and effort as the guy using the mk xv gold build. Just because someone puts out higher damage does not mean they are wronging those doing less. The guy with the budget build will one day be at the level of the guy using the mk xv golds if the proper time and effort are put in. Folks doing that "unlimited damage" have just as much right to be in the queues as the folks just starting out. If folks are having issues where they are being AFKed, then they can ask for help and it will be given to them so that doesn't happen again. In today's game, folks are only limited by how much time and effort they're willing to put into the game. The guy doing 208203942703801289301927089 DPS was once the guy doing 8k DPS just starting out.
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