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Collision Detection And Other Related Physics Based Feedback
timelordq
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
Greetings!
First off, let me start by thanking the staff - the developers, artists, content creators - and those in charge for the continued development and support of Star Trek Online. I, as an avid fan of this universe, am truly appreciative of your efforts.
With that said, there's a couple things I would suggest putting on 'the agenda' if you ever move forward with core/engine changes with the world which could both enhance game play and realism as well as create different dynamics for the world and worlds we explore.
1) First and foremost - I would have to advise an overhaul of your collision detection.
// Detail on Collision Detection Issues starts here
SHIPS - Ships shouldn't pass through other friendly ships as if they weren't there, or bounce off of non friendly units like a ping pong ball. Ships shouldn't bounce off of stars and planets, and they should, as much as this might suck at times and would absolutely change the way I and others play the game - take structural damage in impact areas.
AVATARS & NPCS - Similarly, While mining in the Veluga Asteroid mining field, other miners who choose the same Dilithium node as me shouldn't merge with me. This doesn't happen in real life, and in the Star Trek Universe it just comes across as ... sloppy code that doesn't remotely match the very basics of collision detection in other MMO faire. I shouldn't be able to walk through NPCs, and so on.
PROJECTILES AND FIREARMS - They should obey the rules of collision detection too. An enemy in a battleground shouldn't be able to shoot a phaser through walls to hit and kill me - UNLESS IT's CAUSING SUFFICIENT MATERIAL DAMAGE to the structure of the walls enough to pierce it. AIR STRIKES shouldn't be able to hit ground targets indoors, unless there's enough physical damage to the roof of the facility which may cause a breach in the hull in the wrong places. Simply put - projectiles and firearms should be acting in a consistent manner with reality, and this simplistic implementation in my opinion limits the possibilities for other things that can leverage the same physics.
// Detail on Collision Detection Issues END here
2) Overhaul your Kinetic and other AREA Attack to NOT discriminate via friend of foe
// Detail on Area Non discrimination Issues starts here
KINETIC - While I LOVE throwing a high powered Gravity Well into a group of enemies, it gets real boring real fast when it comes to teamwork, tactics, and - well - let's be clear - realism. Let's put it this way - it doesn't make sense that this implosion isn't going to draw everyone in range into it, myself included. Tactically, I would THINK this would operate much like a grenade or a bomb, and I don't want to be anywhere near it when it goes off. Tactically I would think I would have to prepare for this and make sure none of my teammates are near. SURE it changes a core mechanic, but let's be realistic. For an explosion to distinguish friend or foe doesn't make sense in the real world.
I mean, sure, I could overlook weapons having IFF on them and not letting me shoot a friend. But kinetic damage from glancing blows.... that just dont make no sense....
Similarly, with the kinetic. I've been doing Arena of Sompak a lot lately and there's a lightning round as well as plenty of fiery objects that don't seem to damage the enemy mobs. This makes no sense. What damages me. Should damage it. Unless of course it's resistance to this type of damage allows it to evade damage. Oh sure, I understand the rules of a holographic environment might not allow this, so for the Arena, it's forgiven, but for the 'real world' universe - it just doesn't make sense not to have.
// Detail on Area Non discrimination Issues starts here
3) FIX THE RUBBER BANDING
// Detail for FIX THE RUBBER BANDING Issue here.
Whether I run around a corner and suddenly find myself 15 meters back before I rounded the corner, or I'm slipstreaming from one star system to another and find myself pulled back by a couple light years, this effect - which is sporadic and on rare occasion (fortunately) results in my death - the network consideration for ARC based games is easily in need of the most work of any competitive MMORPG on the market today.
For a newcomer who may be used to playing older and much more mature games like Worlds of Warcraft which never experiences issues like this unless there's an epic raid with 40 people, or it's newer games such as DOTA - latency - and this rubber band effect - would in a literal sense drive away audiences.
There's threads on it on REDDIT discussing the issue (https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/9kayrr/rubberbanding/), there's YOUtube videos discussing it, and more.
I myself have an extremely high speed connection low latency connection, and have witnessed this same effect no matter what the connection is - so I know it's not just confined to the connection speed and quality, and definitely needs addressed. Has for a long time....
Worlds of Warcraft implements a strong client trust system to resolve this issue, which is not an unusual approach to make. Other games use a Publisher/Subscribe method for positional information, which would work great for your implementation but it doesn't scale well.....
In any case, while I've minimized the Rubber banding, it's still frustrating when it happens....
// Detail for FIX THE RUBBER BANDING Issue here.
Thank you for your time, consideration, and most of all, the wonderful work you've put into this so far. While it is enjoyable to me, it doesn't mean it's perfect. With that said, I think at the very least with some enhancements to the collision detection across the board would really make this world that much more engaging.
With great respect,
- Q
First off, let me start by thanking the staff - the developers, artists, content creators - and those in charge for the continued development and support of Star Trek Online. I, as an avid fan of this universe, am truly appreciative of your efforts.
With that said, there's a couple things I would suggest putting on 'the agenda' if you ever move forward with core/engine changes with the world which could both enhance game play and realism as well as create different dynamics for the world and worlds we explore.
1) First and foremost - I would have to advise an overhaul of your collision detection.
// Detail on Collision Detection Issues starts here
SHIPS - Ships shouldn't pass through other friendly ships as if they weren't there, or bounce off of non friendly units like a ping pong ball. Ships shouldn't bounce off of stars and planets, and they should, as much as this might suck at times and would absolutely change the way I and others play the game - take structural damage in impact areas.
AVATARS & NPCS - Similarly, While mining in the Veluga Asteroid mining field, other miners who choose the same Dilithium node as me shouldn't merge with me. This doesn't happen in real life, and in the Star Trek Universe it just comes across as ... sloppy code that doesn't remotely match the very basics of collision detection in other MMO faire. I shouldn't be able to walk through NPCs, and so on.
PROJECTILES AND FIREARMS - They should obey the rules of collision detection too. An enemy in a battleground shouldn't be able to shoot a phaser through walls to hit and kill me - UNLESS IT's CAUSING SUFFICIENT MATERIAL DAMAGE to the structure of the walls enough to pierce it. AIR STRIKES shouldn't be able to hit ground targets indoors, unless there's enough physical damage to the roof of the facility which may cause a breach in the hull in the wrong places. Simply put - projectiles and firearms should be acting in a consistent manner with reality, and this simplistic implementation in my opinion limits the possibilities for other things that can leverage the same physics.
// Detail on Collision Detection Issues END here
2) Overhaul your Kinetic and other AREA Attack to NOT discriminate via friend of foe
// Detail on Area Non discrimination Issues starts here
KINETIC - While I LOVE throwing a high powered Gravity Well into a group of enemies, it gets real boring real fast when it comes to teamwork, tactics, and - well - let's be clear - realism. Let's put it this way - it doesn't make sense that this implosion isn't going to draw everyone in range into it, myself included. Tactically, I would THINK this would operate much like a grenade or a bomb, and I don't want to be anywhere near it when it goes off. Tactically I would think I would have to prepare for this and make sure none of my teammates are near. SURE it changes a core mechanic, but let's be realistic. For an explosion to distinguish friend or foe doesn't make sense in the real world.
I mean, sure, I could overlook weapons having IFF on them and not letting me shoot a friend. But kinetic damage from glancing blows.... that just dont make no sense....
Similarly, with the kinetic. I've been doing Arena of Sompak a lot lately and there's a lightning round as well as plenty of fiery objects that don't seem to damage the enemy mobs. This makes no sense. What damages me. Should damage it. Unless of course it's resistance to this type of damage allows it to evade damage. Oh sure, I understand the rules of a holographic environment might not allow this, so for the Arena, it's forgiven, but for the 'real world' universe - it just doesn't make sense not to have.
// Detail on Area Non discrimination Issues starts here
3) FIX THE RUBBER BANDING
// Detail for FIX THE RUBBER BANDING Issue here.
Whether I run around a corner and suddenly find myself 15 meters back before I rounded the corner, or I'm slipstreaming from one star system to another and find myself pulled back by a couple light years, this effect - which is sporadic and on rare occasion (fortunately) results in my death - the network consideration for ARC based games is easily in need of the most work of any competitive MMORPG on the market today.
For a newcomer who may be used to playing older and much more mature games like Worlds of Warcraft which never experiences issues like this unless there's an epic raid with 40 people, or it's newer games such as DOTA - latency - and this rubber band effect - would in a literal sense drive away audiences.
There's threads on it on REDDIT discussing the issue (https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/9kayrr/rubberbanding/), there's YOUtube videos discussing it, and more.
I myself have an extremely high speed connection low latency connection, and have witnessed this same effect no matter what the connection is - so I know it's not just confined to the connection speed and quality, and definitely needs addressed. Has for a long time....
Worlds of Warcraft implements a strong client trust system to resolve this issue, which is not an unusual approach to make. Other games use a Publisher/Subscribe method for positional information, which would work great for your implementation but it doesn't scale well.....
In any case, while I've minimized the Rubber banding, it's still frustrating when it happens....
// Detail for FIX THE RUBBER BANDING Issue here.
Thank you for your time, consideration, and most of all, the wonderful work you've put into this so far. While it is enjoyable to me, it doesn't mean it's perfect. With that said, I think at the very least with some enhancements to the collision detection across the board would really make this world that much more engaging.
With great respect,
- Q
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The "rubber-banding" I notice most frequently when other Players load and immediately begin to run. This leads me to question the possibility of the game or Servers attempting to load too much data too quickly. Agree it should be looked into. Have you tried changing Instances? Sometimes changing to a less populated Shard cleans most of my problems.
As for the other things you asked for, it would get real frustrating, real fast if Players were consistently blown up by teammates LOL It would open the door to "Griefing."
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I went and checked a good number of the big name MMOs out there after reading the OP. WoW, Guild Wars 2, FFXIV, RuneScape, and TOR. There is absolutely no collision detection in any of those for player characters with at least other players characters and friendly/neutral NPCs, I don't have an ESO or BDO account, but video evidence tells me that neither of them have any, either. Of the ones that most list in the top 10 or so in population, I didn't check EVE, and couldn't tell from videos. The only one that had any collision was Neverwinter, which, unsurprisingly, has the same level as STO. OP is basically asking for one of the few modern MMOs that has collision detection for friendlies/neutrals to have more, when the industry standard appears to be having none.
If the OP is going to be this dishonest about something like that, do we need to wonder why he wants greater collision detection and friendly fire? Could it be to give that "real life" feeling of blocking progress by blocking NPCs and consequence-free team-killing? Nah.
In the time when EQ was king, there were some MMOs with full collision detection, but most of those games allowed people who used it to grief to be dealt with by PvP flagging. We don't have that here. Of recent MMOs that I've played, the only one that I can think of that had absolute blocking hitboxes was DCUO, and it, predictably, led to blocking doorways and access to quest givers. It was a mess, and didn't feel like real life in the slightest.
My character Tsin'xing
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There is one set of stairs in the Dyson Outskirts where you have to jump up to make the first step while all the other steps there will be handled normally.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
LOL about the cadets. Yeah, quirks like this would certainly be resolved through better physics, collision detection, and then reworking the pathing....
Frustrating on first implementation, sure, there's no doubt it would change the dynamics of the experience which would clearly cause a cascade of revisions for everything - from flight mechanics - to combat and codified rules of combat - all to provide more opportunity for interactions with GM types to become directly involved - which can serve to relay information back to the coders, artists, and whatnot to enhance play.
Now I am not suggesting the changes would be seemless, but with the really minimalist and un-engaging ground came which clearly needs work, making changes such as adding in collision detection and better modelling altogether would hopefully inspire a staged revamp to see these changes.
As far as instance changes. Yeah, I learned that trick back when the game was first released. When acquiring universal missions on NIMBUS for instance, I'm very quick about instance changing to an instance with a decreased population to make hunting easier.
I've not noticed a correlation of population to the rubber banding effects myself. At first I thought I would, but changing instances doesn't seem to make a difference.
THANK YOU for your helpful feedback!
You're asking for features that will add 'realism' but enable huge increases in trolling and griefing while also requiring massive re-working of combat to re-balance it.
STO has existed without this 'realism' for almost 10 years and I haven't seen much in the way of requests for it, which brings me back to the suggestion that perhaps this is not the droid you're looking for. But kudos for remaining civil as we push back against your suggestions.
I've been a long term fan of the show, and f the lore - which the developers and artists (THANK YOU!) have done an AWESOME job translating the lore into what I would consider a first version of what I envision will evolve in amazing ways.
I look at this entire endeavor, have from the start - as comparing Microsoft's DOS to Windows and subsequent evolution. Microsoft has come a LONG way in the nearly 40 years it's been around, a trajectory I predict this clearly entertaining universe will follow.
With that, as you said, it's only been 10 years, this Star Trek universe is still in its infancy in my opinion.
I suspect that most of the children devoted to blow em up combat-centric material will move on from this - having contributed in their own way in solidifying the core mechanics and systems - and at that point - other options will be introduced.
Those options will bring it closer to the Star Trek Universe in options as an explorer, or any number of other professions when they implement substantial deviations to the core career paths. With that said, I know what I'm saying will be considered. It's inevitable. You could say I have seen the future and know where this is going. And I LOVE it.
I suspect if the designers and artists and content creators turn their focus more on 'coolness' - as some developers have already done in applying some really cool math to the graphics, AND they let the developers take advantage of the highly unique "on demand" publishing of new material - a feature which I love - the developers and content creators might leverage this to target test out new features and material.
Potential, man, potential.
In any case, not sure what's balanced about the universe as implemented in your opinion. Seems pretty imbalanced to me, highly favoring collective and team and fleet mechanics and taking every opportunity to strip away anything that could favor the development of true individuality for any player. The game is highly imbalanced in my opinion in regards to making game play difficult for the individual or lone wolf player.
HEY - thank you for the words though.
But being sincere. Paint a trajectory for this project long term.
20. 30. 40 years. With VR in it's infant state, and this universe being in what could be referred to as VERSION 1.... And studying the shows and lore... Realistically, the options have one primary direction they're going to go long term....
Towards more realism and less combat and more exploration.
STO happens to be a "free to play, casual, action oriented MMO" with an existing game design, game engine, and a relatively small team for adding new content and new features.
Making large changes to this game isn't possible because:
- People have voted with their wallets to shape the game to how it is now
- It's not a sound business decision to fund adding a second development team to create an entirely new Star Trek game with an unknown potential market (they can't afford to abandon work on the current STO)
- Cryptic would probably also need a new license from CBS to make a different game
Someone, someday will make new Trek games focused on exploration instead of action, and offering more realistic physics, but it's not practical for them to appear in STO 1. STO 2? Maybe, if it ever happens.
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