I not only still own a copy of SFB I also own a copy of its spin off Prime Directive RPG. The material is bad, some embarrassingly bad like "x tech" and the extragalactic invasion, some marginally tolerable like the slightly better than TAS integration of Niven's Kzinti which cannot be used anymore regardless of quality, but overall, its just bad.
Hardly ever messed with the ISC, Andromedans, and the post war X-ships. Groups I played in didn't like having to play in the fleet formations necessary to make the first two powerful and the X ships were considered too OP. Never even messed with the RPG stuff....don't recall even seeing it in stores.
I stayed with its strategic construct, Federation and Empire.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm sorry...but honorable warrior...either internal or external and cloaking ships just does not work...at all.
This has long been a huge inconsistency with the Klingons. They're supposed to be 'honorable' but they fight from the shadows, hiding and stabbing people in the back. Definitely not a very 'honorable' way to fight. The 'cloak and strike' idea always seemed to work well for Romulans, but it never fit the Klingons.
I think it's the result of the way TNG decided to 'expand' on Klingon culture by basically just re-writing them. The Original series where we first see Klingons cloak, they set up the Klingons as warriors but the whole honor code thing was something that TNG later added for them even though it totally didn't fit. When they added that in, the Klingons should have dropped the cloaking.. a real warrior faces his foe.. comes straight at him and fights him face to face. Yet they left the battle tactics the same and just started calling them 'honorable' even though it makes no sense.
Well In ds9 the action was said to be nothing more honorable then victory. This being said there has been a contrast on klingon reaction to this in game, because if this is true. Then the Klingon empire would rush to use things like Tholian weapons. The lore is not constant, what else is new in star trek. I mean just look at the bloody kelvin timeline. Hay got an idea lets blow up a untouched unused, for the most part, aspect of star trek and blow up Romulus. Anyways I remember the first argument on this subject. The truth is the devs squandered a advantage and took the easy, fast shortcut. Actually originally the game website had all factions listed with there own trailers. Romulan star empire, Dominion, Klingon, and Federation. Of course they took down those old trailers as the game changed. This RSE is never going to happen. I just hope no one ever uses sto as cannon lol. The fact is its fed point of view going forward. I am just praying they do not merge all the factions into one, otherwise this game will just be well, in my point of view, stupid.
I'm sorry...but honorable warrior...either internal or external and cloaking ships just does not work...at all.
This has long been a huge inconsistency with the Klingons. They're supposed to be 'honorable' but they fight from the shadows, hiding and stabbing people in the back. Definitely not a very 'honorable' way to fight. The 'cloak and strike' idea always seemed to work well for Romulans, but it never fit the Klingons.
I think it's the result of the way TNG decided to 'expand' on Klingon culture by basically just re-writing them. The Original series where we first see Klingons cloak, they set up the Klingons as warriors but the whole honor code thing was something that TNG later added for them even though it totally didn't fit. When they added that in, the Klingons should have dropped the cloaking.. a real warrior faces his foe.. comes straight at him and fights him face to face. Yet they left the battle tactics the same and just started calling them 'honorable' even though it makes no sense.
Well it's more the case of what's "honorble" being different to klingons then it is to modern humans, same was true for a lot of warrior cultures in the past, for example for a Spartan warrior it wasn't dishonorble to steal as long as you didn't get caught and even the it was the "get caught" part that was dishonorble not the stealing. Another example would that vikings Warriors were perfectly fine with attacking and lootings defenseless or poorly defended settlements and would be seen as honorble, but should they run from battle they would be seen as dishonorble.
In fact I suspect that the viking example is also how klingons see themselves.
A real warrior would also know that Honor Before Reason is more likely than not just going to get them killed, and that those most likely to win battles and have songs sung about their victories are the ones willing to use every advantage at their disposal.
If winning means you need to do something the people writing those songs would consider dishonorable, then they don't really "need" to know that part of the tale. Most, if not all, tales of great Klingon warriors are most likely greatly embellished and have details that modern Klingons wouldn't like glossed over or just omitted entirely.
Also, claiming to be honorable and actually being honorable are two very different things.
> @seaofsorrows said: > coldnapalm wrote: » > > I'm sorry...but honorable warrior...either internal or external and cloaking ships just does not work...at all. > > > > > This has long been a huge inconsistency with the Klingons. They're supposed to be 'honorable' but they fight from the shadows, hiding and stabbing people in the back. Definitely not a very 'honorable' way to fight. The 'cloak and strike' idea always seemed to work well for Romulans, but it never fit the Klingons. > > I think it's the result of the way TNG decided to 'expand' on Klingon culture by basically just re-writing them. The Original series where we first see Klingons cloak, they set up the Klingons as warriors but the whole honor code thing was something that TNG later added for them even though it totally didn't fit. When they added that in, the Klingons should have dropped the cloaking.. a real warrior faces his foe.. comes straight at him and fights him face to face. Yet they left the battle tactics the same and just started calling them 'honorable' even though it makes no sense.
I don’t see a problem with the cloaking device and Klingons. What I think was dumb is how everyone gets the vapors if Starfleet uses them.
I think the want here is kind of veiled in the OP's posting. I COULD be wrong here but this is MY want overall. I'll start by saying I was a BSGO player and that game had hands down the best PvP model I've seen to date. Nothing overpowered, no super-DPS ships, it was a knock do
Also in regards to D'Tan, J'mpok and Quinn I suspect they're essentially immortal as far as the story is conserned due to being the "primary contact" for their respective factions and how much work it would be to replace them.
So it's less about not killing off canon characters (as Quinn and J'mpok are STO OCs)and more about not giving the dev team too much work.
what would make it really difficult is the fact they have fixed places in social zones. for example if they killed Quinn off then it would turn into a situation of: "why is Quinn still in his office? He's supposed to be dead" kind of thing.
Also in regards to D'Tan, J'mpok and Quinn I suspect they're essentially immortal as far as the story is conserned due to being the "primary contact" for their respective factions and how much work it would be to replace them.
So it's less about not killing off canon characters (as Quinn and J'mpok are STO OCs)and more about not giving the dev team too much work.
what would make it really difficult is the fact they have fixed places in social zones. for example if they killed Quinn off then it would turn into a situation of: "why is Quinn still in his office? He's supposed to be dead" kind of thing.
Well that's not really that hard you just replace every mention of "Quinn" (or D'tan or J'mpok) with the name of their replacement, in WoW they're at the 4th "warchief of the horde" at this point so replacing an important NPC like that isn't impossible.
The hard part is that "replace every mention/apparence of the killed off NPC" is a lot of work since for a essential NPC like the main faction contact NPC there's a lot of things that would need to be replaced and there's also the fact that that you'd have to have the actor for the new NPC do frequent voicelines (which is probably why Martok didn't challenge J'mpok in the storyline the actor voicing Martok wasn't avaible to do the amount of voice work needed for that).
Why Blizzard was able to get away with this is that WoW development team is much larger then the STO development team so Blizzard has the resouces to do it (also quests in WoW aren't voiced as a rule of thumb so there was less new voice work needed).
Also in regards to D'Tan, J'mpok and Quinn I suspect they're essentially immortal as far as the story is conserned due to being the "primary contact" for their respective factions and how much work it would be to replace them.
So it's less about not killing off canon characters (as Quinn and J'mpok are STO OCs)and more about not giving the dev team too much work.
what would make it really difficult is the fact they have fixed places in social zones. for example if they killed Quinn off then it would turn into a situation of: "why is Quinn still in his office? He's supposed to be dead" kind of thing.
Well that's not really that hard you just replace every mention of "Quinn" (or D'tan or J'mpok) with the name of their replacement, in WoW they're at the 4th "warchief of the horde" at this point so replacing an important NPC like that isn't impossible.
The hard part is that "replace every mention/apparence of the killed off NPC" is a lot of work since for a essential NPC like the main faction contact NPC there's a lot of things that would need to be replaced and there's also the fact that that you'd have to have the actor for the new NPC do frequent voicelines (which is probably why Martok didn't challenge J'mpok in the storyline the actor voicing Martok wasn't avaible to do the amount of voice work needed for that).
Why Blizzard was able to get away with this is that WoW development team is much larger then the STO development team so Blizzard has the resouces to do it (also quests in WoW aren't voiced as a rule of thumb so there was less new voice work needed).
But that just replaces the question of a character appearing in social zones after his supposed death in the storyline, with the question of his successor appearing there before it. It's a plot hole either way.
Also in regards to D'Tan, J'mpok and Quinn I suspect they're essentially immortal as far as the story is conserned due to being the "primary contact" for their respective factions and how much work it would be to replace them.
So it's less about not killing off canon characters (as Quinn and J'mpok are STO OCs)and more about not giving the dev team too much work.
what would make it really difficult is the fact they have fixed places in social zones. for example if they killed Quinn off then it would turn into a situation of: "why is Quinn still in his office? He's supposed to be dead" kind of thing.
Well that's not really that hard you just replace every mention of "Quinn" (or D'tan or J'mpok) with the name of their replacement, in WoW they're at the 4th "warchief of the horde" at this point so replacing an important NPC like that isn't impossible.
The hard part is that "replace every mention/apparence of the killed off NPC" is a lot of work since for a essential NPC like the main faction contact NPC there's a lot of things that would need to be replaced and there's also the fact that that you'd have to have the actor for the new NPC do frequent voicelines (which is probably why Martok didn't challenge J'mpok in the storyline the actor voicing Martok wasn't avaible to do the amount of voice work needed for that).
Why Blizzard was able to get away with this is that WoW development team is much larger then the STO development team so Blizzard has the resouces to do it (also quests in WoW aren't voiced as a rule of thumb so there was less new voice work needed).
But that just replaces the question of a character appearing in social zones after his supposed death in the storyline, with the question of his successor appearing there before it. It's a plot hole either way.
There's a mechanic called phasing that allows objects to appear only when needed and what's shown to be different for each player. I suspect STO is already using it for cloaking as IIRC you're not able to see opponents (opponents in PvP of course, NPCs work differently) who have cloaked but are able to see yourself or allies.
So Quinn would be visible until storyline killed him off but those after that the "Quinn" NPC would go invisible and uninteractble, while the replacement NPC would become visible and interactble and would offer everything Quinn did. Still this isn't a simple change and would demand a lot of work but by no means an impossible change.
Correct me if I'm wrong, @seaofsorrows , but isn't the IRW prefix unavailable for the newer, post-LOR Romulan ships? At least, I have been able to use it on most of mine.
Is it? I didn't know that.
I have never actually tried to use it, my Romulans all think Sela and her lackeys are weak and stupid.
I was under the impression that you could use that prefix on any Romulan ship.. but I guess you can't. They should probably fix that.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Registry
I think the only Prefix missing now is S.V.U. - and for anyone who has never seen a Law & Order ep, that's a joke.
Correct me if I'm wrong, @seaofsorrows , but isn't the IRW prefix unavailable for the newer, post-LOR Romulan ships? At least, I have been able to use it on most of mine.
Is it? I didn't know that.
I have never actually tried to use it, my Romulans all think Sela and her lackeys are weak and stupid.
I was under the impression that you could use that prefix on any Romulan ship.. but I guess you can't. They should probably fix that.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Registry
I think the only Prefix missing now is S.V.U. - and for anyone who has never seen a Law & Order ep, that's a joke.
So you're saying I'll never be able to fly the SVU Law & Order? How about the CSI Miami?
> @warpangel said: > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: » > > I don’t see a problem with the cloaking device and Klingons. What I think was dumb is how everyone gets the vapors if Starfleet uses them. > > > > Not everyone. Just some klingon factionalists.
That’s not what “Path to 2409” says.......one entry is about how everybody got the vapors when it came out the Feds were secretly researching cloaking. The legal opinion that the Treaty of Algernon died with the RSE also seemed to cause a lot of butthurt. What did the Feds get out of that treaty anyhow?
Aside from not being at war with the Romulans, we don't know much about what the Federation got out of the Treaty of Algeron.
We don't really know much about what the Romulans got, either. It's highly unlikely the only way they benefitted from it is preventing the Federation from designing or using Cloaking Devices.
Correct me if I'm wrong, @seaofsorrows , but isn't the IRW prefix unavailable for the newer, post-LOR Romulan ships? At least, I have been able to use it on most of mine.
Is it? I didn't know that.
I have never actually tried to use it, my Romulans all think Sela and her lackeys are weak and stupid.
I was under the impression that you could use that prefix on any Romulan ship.. but I guess you can't. They should probably fix that.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Registry
I think the only Prefix missing now is S.V.U. - and for anyone who has never seen a Law & Order ep, that's a joke.
So you're saying I'll never be able to fly the SVU Law & Order? How about the CSI Miami?
And I don't generally quote myself, but - is it true that Admiral Jonathan Archer later commanded the NCIS New Orleans?
Correct me if I'm wrong, @seaofsorrows , but isn't the IRW prefix unavailable for the newer, post-LOR Romulan ships? At least, I have been able to use it on most of mine.
Is it? I didn't know that.
I have never actually tried to use it, my Romulans all think Sela and her lackeys are weak and stupid.
I was under the impression that you could use that prefix on any Romulan ship.. but I guess you can't. They should probably fix that.
Yes please give all the other Romulan ships that prefix!
I.R.W. prefixes would help. On all warbirds, for Romulans only.
At this point, pretending to play as an imperial spy infiltrating everyone else is the only thing left to do.
That is pretty much what I've done for one of my characters. The RSE may be gone but there are still plenty of Imperialists left.
Heck we still fight the Tal'Shiar on New Romulous but I think their antics have greatly annoyed the Imperialists. They probably don't want anything to do with them anymore. I'm sure they are still plotting a way to free Sela.
There's a mechanic called phasing that allows objects to appear only when needed and what's shown to be different for each player. I suspect STO is already using it for cloaking as IIRC you're not able to see opponents (opponents in PvP of course, NPCs work differently) who have cloaked but are able to see yourself or allies.
So Quinn would be visible until storyline killed him off but those after that the "Quinn" NPC would go invisible and uninteractble, while the replacement NPC would become visible and interactble and would offer everything Quinn did. Still this isn't a simple change and would demand a lot of work but by no means an impossible change.
STO's had that since LoR beta. Yes really. The Tau Dewa sector space changes for Romulan Republic characters as you go through the Romulan Republic story. They just don't use it much because it makes other things more complicated. For a recent example: the new DS9 has a room where you'll see a Dominion Embassy along with Loriss and some Jem'hadar. But only if you've reached a certain point in the story.
That’s not what “Path to 2409” says.......one entry is about how everybody got the vapors when it came out the Feds were secretly researching cloaking. The legal opinion that the Treaty of Algernon died with the RSE also seemed to cause a lot of butthurt. What did the Feds get out of that treaty anyhow?
Oh, I thought you meant on the forums.
Being lawful beyond the point of reason is the Federation's hat in Star Trek. Just like klingons with their honor.
Comments
Hardly ever messed with the ISC, Andromedans, and the post war X-ships. Groups I played in didn't like having to play in the fleet formations necessary to make the first two powerful and the X ships were considered too OP. Never even messed with the RPG stuff....don't recall even seeing it in stores.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
This has long been a huge inconsistency with the Klingons. They're supposed to be 'honorable' but they fight from the shadows, hiding and stabbing people in the back. Definitely not a very 'honorable' way to fight. The 'cloak and strike' idea always seemed to work well for Romulans, but it never fit the Klingons.
I think it's the result of the way TNG decided to 'expand' on Klingon culture by basically just re-writing them. The Original series where we first see Klingons cloak, they set up the Klingons as warriors but the whole honor code thing was something that TNG later added for them even though it totally didn't fit. When they added that in, the Klingons should have dropped the cloaking.. a real warrior faces his foe.. comes straight at him and fights him face to face. Yet they left the battle tactics the same and just started calling them 'honorable' even though it makes no sense.
Well it's more the case of what's "honorble" being different to klingons then it is to modern humans, same was true for a lot of warrior cultures in the past, for example for a Spartan warrior it wasn't dishonorble to steal as long as you didn't get caught and even the it was the "get caught" part that was dishonorble not the stealing. Another example would that vikings Warriors were perfectly fine with attacking and lootings defenseless or poorly defended settlements and would be seen as honorble, but should they run from battle they would be seen as dishonorble.
In fact I suspect that the viking example is also how klingons see themselves.
If winning means you need to do something the people writing those songs would consider dishonorable, then they don't really "need" to know that part of the tale. Most, if not all, tales of great Klingon warriors are most likely greatly embellished and have details that modern Klingons wouldn't like glossed over or just omitted entirely.
Also, claiming to be honorable and actually being honorable are two very different things.
> coldnapalm wrote: »
>
> I'm sorry...but honorable warrior...either internal or external and cloaking ships just does not work...at all.
>
>
>
>
> This has long been a huge inconsistency with the Klingons. They're supposed to be 'honorable' but they fight from the shadows, hiding and stabbing people in the back. Definitely not a very 'honorable' way to fight. The 'cloak and strike' idea always seemed to work well for Romulans, but it never fit the Klingons.
>
> I think it's the result of the way TNG decided to 'expand' on Klingon culture by basically just re-writing them. The Original series where we first see Klingons cloak, they set up the Klingons as warriors but the whole honor code thing was something that TNG later added for them even though it totally didn't fit. When they added that in, the Klingons should have dropped the cloaking.. a real warrior faces his foe.. comes straight at him and fights him face to face. Yet they left the battle tactics the same and just started calling them 'honorable' even though it makes no sense.
I don’t see a problem with the cloaking device and Klingons. What I think was dumb is how everyone gets the vapors if Starfleet uses them.
what would make it really difficult is the fact they have fixed places in social zones. for example if they killed Quinn off then it would turn into a situation of: "why is Quinn still in his office? He's supposed to be dead" kind of thing.
The hard part is that "replace every mention/apparence of the killed off NPC" is a lot of work since for a essential NPC like the main faction contact NPC there's a lot of things that would need to be replaced and there's also the fact that that you'd have to have the actor for the new NPC do frequent voicelines (which is probably why Martok didn't challenge J'mpok in the storyline the actor voicing Martok wasn't avaible to do the amount of voice work needed for that).
Why Blizzard was able to get away with this is that WoW development team is much larger then the STO development team so Blizzard has the resouces to do it (also quests in WoW aren't voiced as a rule of thumb so there was less new voice work needed).
So Quinn would be visible until storyline killed him off but those after that the "Quinn" NPC would go invisible and uninteractble, while the replacement NPC would become visible and interactble and would offer everything Quinn did. Still this isn't a simple change and would demand a lot of work but by no means an impossible change.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Registry
I think the only Prefix missing now is S.V.U. - and for anyone who has never seen a Law & Order ep, that's a joke.
> jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
>
> I don’t see a problem with the cloaking device and Klingons. What I think was dumb is how everyone gets the vapors if Starfleet uses them.
>
>
>
> Not everyone. Just some klingon factionalists.
That’s not what “Path to 2409” says.......one entry is about how everybody got the vapors when it came out the Feds were secretly researching cloaking. The legal opinion that the Treaty of Algernon died with the RSE also seemed to cause a lot of butthurt. What did the Feds get out of that treaty anyhow?
We don't really know much about what the Romulans got, either. It's highly unlikely the only way they benefitted from it is preventing the Federation from designing or using Cloaking Devices.
Yes please give all the other Romulan ships that prefix!
That is pretty much what I've done for one of my characters. The RSE may be gone but there are still plenty of Imperialists left.
Heck we still fight the Tal'Shiar on New Romulous but I think their antics have greatly annoyed the Imperialists. They probably don't want anything to do with them anymore. I'm sure they are still plotting a way to free Sela.
My character Tsin'xing
Being lawful beyond the point of reason is the Federation's hat in Star Trek. Just like klingons with their honor.