“That the hostility towards the Buran's stats are NOT the result of them being unsuited for high DPS potential builds, but of little skill?”
Partly but there is more to it than that. I have posted two builds that even people with 50% skill should be able to break past 100k+ DPS. The Buran's states are not optimal for a lot of builds but if a player puts in some thought and skill they can build high DPS build around it. In my mind there is nothing wrong with the Buran's stats. It might not be ideal for everyone but no ship is.
“And by the way, if the DPSers truly cared for their skill, they would express their records not as damage numbers, but as a percentage of the theoretical maximum of the build at hand.”
That is often impossible. My build has no theoretical maximum DPS. How would I even go about working out an estimated theoretical maximum? Even if I could do it, I have no idea how to do that in a practical way. Wouldn’t that take ages to work out and if you work it out for one bit of content its meaningless for another bit of content. I don’t see how knowing the theoretical maximum has anything to do with skill or the Buran ship.
“Are you trying to say that in your experience, there are more people with 1 million DPS builds but 1% skill than people with 20k dps builds but 50% skill?”
The people with 1 million DPS builds are not getting 1million DPS from the gear alone. If the people had 1% skill they wouldn’t be getting 1 million DPS. When I do 2 million DPS against 10 ships it doesn’t matter what rank my gear is as gear doesn’t matter. It helps but it’s not the key element. Hence why I now think the Buran is a great ship.
“So you are saying you know people who would do less than 10k dps with a build similar to the ones that make the top of the charts?”
For sure, the same people who do not turn on auto fire, seem to fly at 10% of max speed so miss all the NPC ships for the entire run. You know the type.
In fact I will go a step further. Give a 50% skill player with one of those top ISA million DPS builds and get someone else to take my ISA 80k DPS build. Now in the mission Operation Riposte my build will with the right skill will kill all the ships at the stage Destroy Klingon Reinforcements and stage Blockading Action so fast that those 1 milllion DPS ships in ISA get no kills and drop to sub 10k DPS or 0k DPS for those sections.
If gear is all that matters then please explain the above and below to me. The new TFO Operation Riposte. Just looking at the Destroy Klingon Reinforcements section right after capturing the Orbital Facilitates. If I wait till the ships appear and fly straight to them under the rules you stated before about peak damage I could
Run A: Get 80k DPS
100% same skill and 100% same gear
Run B: Get 200k DPS
Pass my build onto someone else
Run C: Get 10k DPS
Run D Use player skill to predict and fly to the area before the ships appear, get 2million+ DPS.
4 runs 100% the same gear and widely different DPS levels. Even two runs the same skill and same gear but more than a 300% difference in DPS.
In my build the rank and quality of the gear is largely unimportant, what matters is skill and piloting. In fact if I take the same build but downgrade the gear level and quality my DPS in run D I would still get 2+ million DPS. So if gear is so important how come it has little impact on my build? What gear I fit matters, but the quality and rank level only helps a small amount and is less important than player skill.
Only 3 tac console slots, no Lt. Commander tac boff station, 4/4 gun ports. I can imagine.
[...]
Ah, gear is utterly unimportant, peter! Don't you know? It's all about skill! You can take the Buran and do 1 million DPS in ISA! Just go and show the world your own awesomeness.
Oh wait, no, you say gear does have some influence, but skill is just as important, right? So with someone of your awesome leet skill, that would mean, say, 500k dps, right?
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Pete managed to do 500k DPS in it.
Only 3 tac console slots, no Lt. Commander tac boff station, 4/4 gun ports. I can imagine.
[...]
Ah, gear is utterly unimportant, peter! Don't you know? It's all about skill! You can take the Buran and do 1 million DPS in ISA! Just go and show the world your own awesomeness.
Oh wait, no, you say gear does have some influence, but skill is just as important, right? So with someone of your awesome leet skill, that would mean, say, 500k dps, right?
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Pete managed to do 500k DPS in it.
Lol hey mate. No idea, not yet tried, but thanks.
In any case wb to forums, you seem to be right on time for Sloppy's grand STO meltdown of 2019.
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It is up to each player to decide what to in game and what tools feel right for the respective task he or she chooses. If that’s the Buran, then it is a good ship perhaps the best even.
Agreed - and back on topic (since this thread was apparently created to discuss the Buran's DPS potential, not DPS in general) my previous comments were simply intended to reflect how disappointed I have been at reading some of the comments I've seen in-game, on Reddit and on Facebook pertaining to the Buran.
In most cases the response seems to have been "hard pass because BOFF seating". Some players clearly can't see past that. Thankfully, whilst there has been similar here, on the forums, many of the regulars here know that the BOFF seating is not the be-all-end all. Honestly - there are SO many consoles, traits and abilities available now that it's quite easy to offset the supposedly lacking BOFF seating.
I guess the enjoyment I get out of the ship, and the fact that I love the design (enough to order a 3D print model), means I find the negativity toward it from some a bit disappointing. It's a great ship and more than capable of handling Advanced content PuGs.
In the debut livestream Borticus talked about the BOff seating. Him and Jette had seen the commentary and had a discussion about whether it was right. Apparently the focus of the criticism of the boff seating was the idea: "LtC Tac or it's junk". So they had a talk and the end result of the talk was to decide that the real question should be if it has room for at least 3 tac boff seats, which it does.
I can sort of see that because as a torpedo boat the Buran outperforms a lot of ships that do have LtC Tac but do not have command seating. My current build which is not a torpedo boat needs 4 tac seats but I can get away with 3 being Ensign level as long as I have at least one rank 2 slot all is good.
Hey thats cool.
Speaking of which have you seen the new rep? It looks like this ships very large hull is going synergise with many of the new rep items. Perhaps not as a serious high end build, but we could build around high hull capacity, with high passive hull regeneration and still end up with some decent damage output from the high hull damage linked from the new items. Also due to the high hull regeneration which will also synergize with the high hull capacity you won’t need any healing bridge officer powers so all those engineering teams and other healing powers can be swapped out for damage type powers.
The Buran seems really odd to me at first but now after seeing the new rep, I think I understand what the devs are aiming for. Its starting to look far more attractive now.
I have not yet seen the new stuff but will take a look.
I just follow your posts a bit as I aim for a kinetic build as a side quest on one of my toons as well and your posts are helpful. I currently use the jem hadar carrier which also has command powers and seem to do fine (think close to 200k in isa pugs). Atm I eye a bit the tzenkethi dread for that but that is a lot of EC for such a sidequest. We shal see.
Thank you, I am glad some of my posts are useful. In a little more detail this is what I am thinking and it should work on any big hull ship not just the Buran. The two key elements of passive hull regeneration are the higher the hull repair rate % number, the faster the healing ticks happen. From memory and this might be a little off, somewhere around 300% to 400% is around about 1 healing tick per second. Next comes hull, the bigger the hull the bigger those healing ticks are. I could spend ages posting all the little tweaks I know about but I am not sure this is the right thread for that. Things like the TOS Bridge Officer Uhura boosts both hull regen and damage output. Anyway stack into hull Capacity to boost damage and passive healing amounts.
Next comes the Stamets and Tilly’s Ingenuity set based around a Quantum torpedo boat with Con firepower 2 and 3 slotted and because it me thrown in some rear Quantum mines. This will give none stop high yield torpedoes, a large hull Capacity bonus, an unknown but apparently Enormous Hull Regeneration bonus added with a few select hull traits and hull equipment you won’t need any bridge officer slots on healing officer.
Now every attack you do does extra Mycelial energy damage based on your Hull Capacity which should be massive at over 200k+ hull Capacity? With an added trigger ability that will deal damage to enemies based on your Hull Capacity. Now mix in the Lorca’s Ambition set so Dark Matter Quantum Torpedo shoot consent high yield via with Con firepower 2 and 3 with added Shield Penetration and a large crit chance bonus from Lorca’s Custom Fire Controls. So now all crit strikes gain a stacking bonus to Critical Severity and as an added bonus you are passively shooting free Dark Matter Quantums at enemies who fall below 50% Health.
For traits things like Tyler’s Duality Gain Critical Chance based off Hull Capacity to go with the Fleet Buran massive Hull Modifier of 1.54. This build theory should get around the lack of Lieutenant Commander Tactical slot, while also freeing up Commander Engineering to be DPS based instead of healing. Clearly there are some unknowns but the general idea should be sound and I believe this build offers a different style to what most people are used to using.
When I look at the Buran from this build point of view the bridge officer and console layout seems far less odd and even pretty good.
EDIT: While we don't have access to all this yet, I think I will recreate my old passive hull regeneration with added hull capacity build and see how it fairs in todays state of game. Any negatively I had towards the Bura layout has completely gone away now I have seen the new rep. For me the Buran has gone from zero desire to buy it, to very interesting.
It is realy good to read that they seem to have a released a ship suited for alternate game approaches with the upcoming stuff of the disco rep.
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“There is more to the hostility towards the Buran's boff layout? What exactly?”
The hostility is not 100% because people think it’s unsuited for high DPS potential builds. Some of the hostility is because some players see the bridge officer and console layout as suboptimal for their own none high end DPS build.
Some of the hostile attitude towards the Buran is not valid. I was hostile towards the Buran at first and I was wrong upon further reflection. At first I thought the devs made a major mistake in the way the Buran's was designed but I admit to being wrong. Its well designed and has a purpose behind it.
“Beginners? Sure I know them. They all learn quickly. It's not rocket science.”
No not beginners. Once you are max level you should be well past the beginner stage. Those none beginners would struggle even if you gave them max gear 1million DPS builds because gear is not what matters. Player skill is what matters.
“Could you do the same with Mk I white gear in a tier 1 ship, without traits slotted? No, you couldn't.”
Actually I believe I could for the stage in my example. If I downgraded all my current equipment to the lowest level possible I could still do 2million+ DPS against that wave of ships due to player skill and knowledge. I can do that because gear is less important then player experience and skill. Gear does help but it is not really that important. Experience and skill from what I have seen has a far bigger impact then gear. Creative thinking can often have a bigger impact on DPS then just upgrading gear.
I am not following, why would we try? Why try to do something that doesn’t give you any meaningful data and is not even possible or useful? What has it go to do with player skill or the Buran class?
“For DPS? Most certainly not. You may not be aware of it, but gear is everything for your build - gear does, however, include traits and "skill points".”
For DPS it most certainly does not. I am fully aware of how my build works and gear is not everything for my build. What is everything for my build is player experience and skill and I put piloting under skill. For my build gear largely does not matter. You need the right type of weapons fitted but beyond that how far it’s upgraded or mods does very little. Same for Bridge officer layout that has little impact. Which is why the Buran has grown on me, as I am not hampered by the bridge officer layout or console layout because gear doesn’t really matter. Gear helps a small amount but it’s not the big thing you make it out to be for me. Skill and experience matter far more then gear and its the skill and experience that puts that gear together in the most optimal way. Skill and Piloting alone can have a much bigger impact on DPS output then gear alone.
In the mission section I was talking about I can do over a million DPS every single time even if my gear is downgraded to the lowest level possible. Upgrade my gear to the highest level and pass the ship to someone else and they will be lucky to get 80k DPS. The difference is not the gear, the difference is due to skill, experience and piloting.
“If you can prove that, in a tier 1 ship with Mk 1 gear and without traits slotted, I concede that I was wrong and you were right. Please do so. I'd love to be wrong. I just am not.”
Ok I can do that. Take a tier 1 ship with as many rear slots as you can find. Fit as many low rank mine launchers as you can but use player skill to fit the best combination. The best gear you can fit is technically all Quantum or all photons but that is a bad idea. Due to experience and skill/piloting I can make 1 Quantum and 1 Photon out damage, 2 Quantum or 2 photons.
Now use further skill and piloting to predict the location of the 2nd stage Klingon Reinforcements. Use Piloting which is more skill, to place the mines in the perfect location and make sure you do this a good 30 to 45 seconds before the Reinforcements appear which is experience which comes under more skill. Once the Klingon Reinforcements arrive if placed correctly via skill the entire wave will blow up and you will do 1+million DPS for that section all due to skill and piloting and completely independent of quality of gear fitted. Upgrading the gear would have zero impact on your DPS output here. It doesn't matter if you have rank 1 gear or max level at Epic its all the same amount of DPS because for this this situation gear does not matter only player skill does.
Now we are on to the missile stage. Now repeat the above only this time you have multiple spawn points. With enough player skill you can even kill two waves of Klingon’s that are 20km apart at the same time. It’s all down to skill, timing and piloting, not the quality of gear which does not matter.
Now it’s the save the transport step. Guess what we are doing the same thing again. Our low T1 ship with low rank mines will be doing more DPS then all those top end ISA DPS run ships as long as we use skill and piloting to get our timings and position right
You have just done what you call game breaking DPS purely based on skill, piloting and timing without gear or ship really mattering.
“Because that would allow you to give a good assessment not of the game's brokenness, but your own skill - of which you are so proud.”
You don’t seem to understand what I was trying to say. As far as I can see it’s impossible to do as you described so it cannot be used as a good assessment. I did ask how would I work it out as I cannot see a possible way to do that in a practical way. Also if we did figure out a way to do it, I do not see what use it will be.
EDIT: “The situation is, you can do without skill for game-breaking DPS, but not without the gear.”
The situation is, you can do without gear for game-breaking DPS, but not without the skill. just trying to emphasize my point. Gear alone is not enough, you need the skill to go alongside it for game-breaking DPS
@sophlogimo
so you finaly realised that there is skill involved when using the same build
basically you just mentioned all the stuff i said, that you need different things to get to the maximum posisble dmg.
So you finally read the posts and understood them. Excellent. I suggest you try to that every single time you post. Thanks.
and sadly you just go back to your just gear matter, even if you said otherwise b4.
the situation is just, that you need both sides to be successful and not just one
The situation is, you can do without skill for game-breaking DPS, but not without the gear.
=> please stop to troll / try to claim the wrong thing even if you obviously know that you're wrong
I am not trolling. I do no enjoy this at all. But your delusions need to be debunked. Only the truth will offer a chance of improving the game.
ok now we're at the point that your "dps" means enough to finish the game while we others talk about the max possible dps. dont mix up things when talking about them. compeltly different things.
just out of curiosity, what means gamebreaking dps for you?
maybe your main problem is that the game runs (for a loooong time now and like other mmo games) with powercreep? but thats a problem for the devs not the players.
btw, this game is NOT an arcade game. maybe thats what you want? so maybe you should try out other games that fit your needs better
oh and its stil not black (gear) or white (skill). its still a combination of both!
max possible dps = gearlvl * skill
=> you want to fly with a gearlvl of 1% but a skill level of 100%. the result will be the same as you use a gear lvl of 100% and a skill level of 1%
but someone with a gear lvl of 50% and a skill level of 50% will be better than both others
[...]
ok now we're at the point that your "dps" means enough to finish the game while we others talk about the max possible dps. dont mix up things when talking about them. compeltly different things.
No, DPS just means damage points per second for both sides in this debate. At least that is my impression.
just out of curiosity, what means gamebreaking dps for you?
DPS that would throw away any notion of STO, at least to some extend, simulating an actual universe.
You know, with DPS like the game allows for PC's, there is no force in the known universe that would oppose the Alliance. The Iconians would have looked in shock and awe at some PC's, and would have abandoned all notions of ever getting revenge.
THAT is game-breaking. All credibility of the game's basic plots is gone.
But on a lower level, it is also game-breaking when the content that is designed, such as ISA, becomes too easy. Now, ISA is old, but the NPC's are supposed to level with us, aren't they?
maybe your main problem is that the game runs (for a loooong time now and like other mmo games) with powercreep? but thats a problem for the devs not the players.
The problem there isn't the power creep per se, but the fact that this powercreep only happens on the player side. There is no balance for the NPC's, and thus, the "battles" are boring shooting galleries requiring little to no skill or coordination, and offering no tension.
max possible dps = gearlvl * skill
=> you want to fly with a gearlvl of 1% but a skill level of 100%. the result will be the same as you use a gear lvl of 100% and a skill level of 1%
but someone with a gear lvl of 50% and a skill level of 50% will be better than both others
Yeah, but the thing is... skill is a percentage, gear is an absolute number. And if the NPC gear level is somewhere around 100, then players these days can get to 10,000.
People pad themselves on the shoulders for having gear level 10,000 (and the usual range of skill between 40 and 60, in most cases), and when a ship, such as the Buran, does only offer a potential for 9,500, they start to complain how "subpar" it is.
1)tell me a dps number you think is gamebreaking please.
2)for your next point, did you see the people qqing about "enemies are too strong" we had for quite some time now? the result of those posts are usualy that the npcs get nerfed again.
the same thing happend back in the days after the release of delta rising. the npcs were balanced to level 60 (instead of 50) and the new gear you could obtain there. but we had a massive uproar that its too difficult and so on.
so basically the solution you would favor would be to balance it to what is possible right now. i guess the mark would be like a required 300k dps treshold (combined for the team) in advanced and something like 600k (team dps again!) for elite. would be fine for me but i'm sure we wouldnt have much people playing advanced/elite after that;)
oh and on top of it, add fail conditions again!
3) so you're saying yourself the buran is weaker than other ships. on equal ships usualy the faw3<->faw2 thing. and pointing out a fact is complaining? ok good one
Heh - I will concede the the biggest 'challenge' ISA presents these days is actually managing to get a shot in before the target is already dead!
Try out a competative engine, slot the boff powers EPtE (perhaps also aux2bat) and use the doff from the phoenix pack that clears CD on evasive maneuver which should be used often. Takes some time to get used to a ship on speed but one can learn and manage.
In any case it helps me a great deal to at least "get a shot" no matter if I'm in a cannon, beam, exotic or kinetic build. Yep, yep they work with varying degrees of success in ISA but they all work. I know so first, second and third hand by now.
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Did we have this exact same conversation last year.......it feels familiar....
The Buran is more than adequate, and a great player could manage more than 100K from it fairly easily I suspect. For most standard content (i.e. story missions and anything up to advanced) i'd imagine it's gonna be more that capable for 90% of the players. Those who dislike it probably would be more used to non-cruiser styles anyway, should they try to use it.
So the ship itself is not as bad as some of the whining makes out.
As to the whole skill vs gear debate.
Well we DID have the same discussion last year and any sane person can clearly understand that skill is absolutely part of the equation. You put a novice driver and an F1 driver in the same type of car and clearly the more skilled driver would get better lap times in a time trial. And even if you gave the novice the best car you could ever build they'd probably still never be as good as the professional, even with all the fancy high-end gear.
STO is EXACTLY the same situation. In fact nearly all games are the same situation. To pretend otherwise is folly.
Better gear helps a great deal to have better output/performance etc. but being more skilled in a game (or any activity!) will always play a big role in performance.
Did we have this exact same conversation last year.......it feels familiar....
The Buran is more than adequate, and a great player could manage more than 100K from it fairly easily I suspect. For most standard content (i.e. story missions and anything up to advanced) i'd imagine it's gonna be more that capable for 90% of the players. Those who dislike it probably would be more used to non-cruiser styles anyway, should they try to use it.
So the ship itself is not as bad as some of the whining makes out.
As to the whole skill vs gear debate.
Well we DID have the same discussion last year and any sane person can clearly understand that skill is absolutely part of the equation. You put a novice driver and an F1 driver in the same type of car and clearly the more skilled driver would get better lap times in a time trial. And even if you gave the novice the best car you could ever build they'd probably still never be as good as the professional, even with all the fancy high-end gear.
STO is EXACTLY the same situation. In fact nearly all games are the same situation. To pretend otherwise is folly.
Better gear helps a great deal to have better output/performance etc. but being more skilled in a game (or any activity!) will always play a big role in performance.
Lol yep we had the same discussion last year and you know whats worse? We even had it the year before that!
In every iteration the discussion gets more out of hand. Just wait what happens next year or in two years from now when peeps have maxed out their perks. All peeps but those that hope STO would be an arcade game that is...
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“So it is bad gear, and you would be doing better with good gear?”
No I would not be doing better with better gear for two reasons which is why your point and your sig is wrong. It you think it does please prove it because from what I can see under the situation I just described the better gear has zero impact on DPS and in fact at times makes the DPS worse. In the situation I am talking about nearly all of the DPS comes from skill and only a tiny amount from gear.
Reason 1 is for example x2 photon mines with photon tactical consoles or 2 Quantum mines with Quantum tactical consoles is classed as the higher quality better gear with the higher damage numbers in the tooltip. But using player skill with 1 photon, 1 Quantum and generic lower damage mine tactical consoles I will be able to do more damage than the so called better gear setup. Proving that player skill matters more than gear at least in this situation.
The second reason is under the situation I just described 1 photon, 1 Quantum and generic lower damage mine tactical consoles will get a zero increase in DPS output from upgrading that equipment to higher quality, again showing that player skill has a large impact and gear is not all that important up to a point.
If you look closely at what I am doing then no video is needed as its clear that gear does not matter over player skill in this situation. I see no way that improved gear would have any impact on DPS under the build I just described in the area of the game I am talking about. As this is the case then "DPS derives from gear, and gear alone" is clearly incorrect and wrong.
This alone proves that there is more to builds then just gear and upgrading gear. Skill matters a great deal and I would say matters more then gear.
“Yeah, but the thing is... skill is a percentage, gear is an absolute number”
But that is not true gear is not an absolute number which is why your idea of looking at percentage of the theoretical maximum does not work. How would I work out my gear as an absolute number for my build? How would I list my percentage of the theoretical maximum?
Yes, my original statement, as well as my sig, do simplify things in order to get a message across, but this thread has worked out what the actual issue is, I believe.
Yeah and we figured out what the actually issue was last year...and the one before that...
Yep. And yet, you guys keep talking about how those high DPS values are due to "skill", and have nothing to do with gear.
Gear is the cause of the high DPS numbers. Players had skill before the broken OP gear, and DPS numbers were much, much lower.
We are not saying high DPS has nothing to do with gear. We are saying gear is only a small part of it and there is more than just gear involved. Gear alone is not as important as skill. The DPS impact from skill is massively higher than the DPS impact from gear. You need both but gear is not the most important part.
As my post before proves gear alone is not the cause of high DPS numbers. I got those high DPS numbers unrelated to the quality or rank of the gear.
Yes, my original statement, as well as my sig, do simplify things in order to get a message across, but this thread has worked out what the actual issue is, I believe.
Yeah and we figured out what the actually issue was last year...and the one before that...
Yep. And yet, you guys keep talking about how those high DPS values are due to "skill", and have nothing to do with gear.
Gear is the cause of the high DPS numbers. Players had skill before the broken OP gear, and DPS numbers were much, much lower.
We are not saying high DPS has nothing to do with gear. We are saying gear is only a small part [...]
I am saying you should provide the proof you promised.
I did post proof by describing to you how I did it and you never pointed out any flaws in what I said. You also have not answer my question on absolute numbers of gear. Based on what I posted anyone can repeat it for themselves and confirm without much effort. I have run plenty of queues with plenty of witness’s as well. Surly you have seen 6+ volleys of mines instantly vaporise an entire wave of NPC reinforcements in 1 second? I do not need to post video proof of that as its common knowledge and doing that is down to player skill not gear.
Let me ask you this, if gear is all that matters how come that via player skill I can make Mk X mines do the same DPS output as Mk XV mines against those Klingon Reinforcements? If gear is all that matters how come upgrading my gear offers no extra DPS and doesn’t kill the Klingon Reinforcements faster?
If you say I am wrong show proof of how better gear would kill those Klingon Reinforcements faster and show how better gear would improve my DPS. Because better gear would have zero impact on DPS in this situation the only thing that matters and impacts DPS here is player skill.
As improving my gear has zero impact in this situation then “DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.” Is clearly wrong.
Comments
That is often impossible. My build has no theoretical maximum DPS. How would I even go about working out an estimated theoretical maximum? Even if I could do it, I have no idea how to do that in a practical way. Wouldn’t that take ages to work out and if you work it out for one bit of content its meaningless for another bit of content. I don’t see how knowing the theoretical maximum has anything to do with skill or the Buran ship.
The people with 1 million DPS builds are not getting 1million DPS from the gear alone. If the people had 1% skill they wouldn’t be getting 1 million DPS. When I do 2 million DPS against 10 ships it doesn’t matter what rank my gear is as gear doesn’t matter. It helps but it’s not the key element. Hence why I now think the Buran is a great ship.
For sure, the same people who do not turn on auto fire, seem to fly at 10% of max speed so miss all the NPC ships for the entire run. You know the type.
In fact I will go a step further. Give a 50% skill player with one of those top ISA million DPS builds and get someone else to take my ISA 80k DPS build. Now in the mission Operation Riposte my build will with the right skill will kill all the ships at the stage Destroy Klingon Reinforcements and stage Blockading Action so fast that those 1 milllion DPS ships in ISA get no kills and drop to sub 10k DPS or 0k DPS for those sections.
If gear is all that matters then please explain the above and below to me. The new TFO Operation Riposte. Just looking at the Destroy Klingon Reinforcements section right after capturing the Orbital Facilitates. If I wait till the ships appear and fly straight to them under the rules you stated before about peak damage I could
Run A: Get 80k DPS
100% same skill and 100% same gear
Run B: Get 200k DPS
Pass my build onto someone else
Run C: Get 10k DPS
Run D Use player skill to predict and fly to the area before the ships appear, get 2million+ DPS.
4 runs 100% the same gear and widely different DPS levels. Even two runs the same skill and same gear but more than a 300% difference in DPS.
In my build the rank and quality of the gear is largely unimportant, what matters is skill and piloting. In fact if I take the same build but downgrade the gear level and quality my DPS in run D I would still get 2+ million DPS. So if gear is so important how come it has little impact on my build? What gear I fit matters, but the quality and rank level only helps a small amount and is less important than player skill.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Pete managed to do 500k DPS in it.
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Lol hey mate. No idea, not yet tried, but thanks.
In any case wb to forums, you seem to be right on time for Sloppy's grand STO meltdown of 2019.
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Yep, if it would not be for that stupid urge to help. Lol, but you are right as it's ways beyond game over here.
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It is realy good to read that they seem to have a released a ship suited for alternate game approaches with the upcoming stuff of the disco rep.
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Some of the hostile attitude towards the Buran is not valid. I was hostile towards the Buran at first and I was wrong upon further reflection. At first I thought the devs made a major mistake in the way the Buran's was designed but I admit to being wrong. Its well designed and has a purpose behind it.
No not beginners. Once you are max level you should be well past the beginner stage. Those none beginners would struggle even if you gave them max gear 1million DPS builds because gear is not what matters. Player skill is what matters.
Actually I believe I could for the stage in my example. If I downgraded all my current equipment to the lowest level possible I could still do 2million+ DPS against that wave of ships due to player skill and knowledge. I can do that because gear is less important then player experience and skill. Gear does help but it is not really that important. Experience and skill from what I have seen has a far bigger impact then gear. Creative thinking can often have a bigger impact on DPS then just upgrading gear.
I am not following, why would we try? Why try to do something that doesn’t give you any meaningful data and is not even possible or useful? What has it go to do with player skill or the Buran class?
For DPS it most certainly does not. I am fully aware of how my build works and gear is not everything for my build. What is everything for my build is player experience and skill and I put piloting under skill. For my build gear largely does not matter. You need the right type of weapons fitted but beyond that how far it’s upgraded or mods does very little. Same for Bridge officer layout that has little impact. Which is why the Buran has grown on me, as I am not hampered by the bridge officer layout or console layout because gear doesn’t really matter. Gear helps a small amount but it’s not the big thing you make it out to be for me. Skill and experience matter far more then gear and its the skill and experience that puts that gear together in the most optimal way. Skill and Piloting alone can have a much bigger impact on DPS output then gear alone.
In the mission section I was talking about I can do over a million DPS every single time even if my gear is downgraded to the lowest level possible. Upgrade my gear to the highest level and pass the ship to someone else and they will be lucky to get 80k DPS. The difference is not the gear, the difference is due to skill, experience and piloting.
so you finaly realised that there is skill involved when using the same build
basically you just mentioned all the stuff i said, that you need different things to get to the maximum posisble dmg.
and sadly you just go back to your just gear matter, even if you said otherwise b4.
the situation is just, that you need both sides to be successful and not just one
=> please stop to troll / try to claim the wrong thing even if you obviously know that you're wrong
ingame: @Felisean
I was talking about the 2nd stage Klingon Reinforcements where you have to kill 1 single wave of ships without any transport being around
Ok I can do that. Take a tier 1 ship with as many rear slots as you can find. Fit as many low rank mine launchers as you can but use player skill to fit the best combination. The best gear you can fit is technically all Quantum or all photons but that is a bad idea. Due to experience and skill/piloting I can make 1 Quantum and 1 Photon out damage, 2 Quantum or 2 photons.
Now use further skill and piloting to predict the location of the 2nd stage Klingon Reinforcements. Use Piloting which is more skill, to place the mines in the perfect location and make sure you do this a good 30 to 45 seconds before the Reinforcements appear which is experience which comes under more skill. Once the Klingon Reinforcements arrive if placed correctly via skill the entire wave will blow up and you will do 1+million DPS for that section all due to skill and piloting and completely independent of quality of gear fitted. Upgrading the gear would have zero impact on your DPS output here. It doesn't matter if you have rank 1 gear or max level at Epic its all the same amount of DPS because for this this situation gear does not matter only player skill does.
Now we are on to the missile stage. Now repeat the above only this time you have multiple spawn points. With enough player skill you can even kill two waves of Klingon’s that are 20km apart at the same time. It’s all down to skill, timing and piloting, not the quality of gear which does not matter.
Now it’s the save the transport step. Guess what we are doing the same thing again. Our low T1 ship with low rank mines will be doing more DPS then all those top end ISA DPS run ships as long as we use skill and piloting to get our timings and position right
You have just done what you call game breaking DPS purely based on skill, piloting and timing without gear or ship really mattering.
You don’t seem to understand what I was trying to say. As far as I can see it’s impossible to do as you described so it cannot be used as a good assessment. I did ask how would I work it out as I cannot see a possible way to do that in a practical way. Also if we did figure out a way to do it, I do not see what use it will be.
EDIT:
“The situation is, you can do without skill for game-breaking DPS, but not without the gear.”
The situation is, you can do without gear for game-breaking DPS, but not without the skill.
ok now we're at the point that your "dps" means enough to finish the game while we others talk about the max possible dps. dont mix up things when talking about them. compeltly different things.
just out of curiosity, what means gamebreaking dps for you?
maybe your main problem is that the game runs (for a loooong time now and like other mmo games) with powercreep? but thats a problem for the devs not the players.
btw, this game is NOT an arcade game. maybe thats what you want? so maybe you should try out other games that fit your needs better
oh and its stil not black (gear) or white (skill). its still a combination of both!
max possible dps = gearlvl * skill
=> you want to fly with a gearlvl of 1% but a skill level of 100%. the result will be the same as you use a gear lvl of 100% and a skill level of 1%
but someone with a gear lvl of 50% and a skill level of 50% will be better than both others
ingame: @Felisean
1)tell me a dps number you think is gamebreaking please.
2)for your next point, did you see the people qqing about "enemies are too strong" we had for quite some time now? the result of those posts are usualy that the npcs get nerfed again.
the same thing happend back in the days after the release of delta rising. the npcs were balanced to level 60 (instead of 50) and the new gear you could obtain there. but we had a massive uproar that its too difficult and so on.
so basically the solution you would favor would be to balance it to what is possible right now. i guess the mark would be like a required 300k dps treshold (combined for the team) in advanced and something like 600k (team dps again!) for elite. would be fine for me but i'm sure we wouldnt have much people playing advanced/elite after that;)
oh and on top of it, add fail conditions again!
3) so you're saying yourself the buran is weaker than other ships. on equal ships usualy the faw3<->faw2 thing. and pointing out a fact is complaining? ok good one
oh and please dont forget its a game
ingame: @Felisean
Try out a competative engine, slot the boff powers EPtE (perhaps also aux2bat) and use the doff from the phoenix pack that clears CD on evasive maneuver which should be used often. Takes some time to get used to a ship on speed but one can learn and manage.
In any case it helps me a great deal to at least "get a shot" no matter if I'm in a cannon, beam, exotic or kinetic build. Yep, yep they work with varying degrees of success in ISA but they all work. I know so first, second and third hand by now.
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The Buran is more than adequate, and a great player could manage more than 100K from it fairly easily I suspect. For most standard content (i.e. story missions and anything up to advanced) i'd imagine it's gonna be more that capable for 90% of the players. Those who dislike it probably would be more used to non-cruiser styles anyway, should they try to use it.
So the ship itself is not as bad as some of the whining makes out.
As to the whole skill vs gear debate.
Well we DID have the same discussion last year and any sane person can clearly understand that skill is absolutely part of the equation. You put a novice driver and an F1 driver in the same type of car and clearly the more skilled driver would get better lap times in a time trial. And even if you gave the novice the best car you could ever build they'd probably still never be as good as the professional, even with all the fancy high-end gear.
STO is EXACTLY the same situation. In fact nearly all games are the same situation. To pretend otherwise is folly.
Better gear helps a great deal to have better output/performance etc. but being more skilled in a game (or any activity!) will always play a big role in performance.
Lol yep we had the same discussion last year and you know whats worse? We even had it the year before that!
In every iteration the discussion gets more out of hand. Just wait what happens next year or in two years from now when peeps have maxed out their perks. All peeps but those that hope STO would be an arcade game that is...
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Reason 1 is for example x2 photon mines with photon tactical consoles or 2 Quantum mines with Quantum tactical consoles is classed as the higher quality better gear with the higher damage numbers in the tooltip. But using player skill with 1 photon, 1 Quantum and generic lower damage mine tactical consoles I will be able to do more damage than the so called better gear setup. Proving that player skill matters more than gear at least in this situation.
The second reason is under the situation I just described 1 photon, 1 Quantum and generic lower damage mine tactical consoles will get a zero increase in DPS output from upgrading that equipment to higher quality, again showing that player skill has a large impact and gear is not all that important up to a point.
If you look closely at what I am doing then no video is needed as its clear that gear does not matter over player skill in this situation. I see no way that improved gear would have any impact on DPS under the build I just described in the area of the game I am talking about. As this is the case then "DPS derives from gear, and gear alone" is clearly incorrect and wrong.
This alone proves that there is more to builds then just gear and upgrading gear. Skill matters a great deal and I would say matters more then gear.
But that is not true gear is not an absolute number which is why your idea of looking at percentage of the theoretical maximum does not work. How would I work out my gear as an absolute number for my build? How would I list my percentage of the theoretical maximum?
As my post before proves gear alone is not the cause of high DPS numbers. I got those high DPS numbers unrelated to the quality or rank of the gear.
Let me ask you this, if gear is all that matters how come that via player skill I can make Mk X mines do the same DPS output as Mk XV mines against those Klingon Reinforcements? If gear is all that matters how come upgrading my gear offers no extra DPS and doesn’t kill the Klingon Reinforcements faster?
If you say I am wrong show proof of how better gear would kill those Klingon Reinforcements faster and show how better gear would improve my DPS. Because better gear would have zero impact on DPS in this situation the only thing that matters and impacts DPS here is player skill.
As improving my gear has zero impact in this situation then “DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.” Is clearly wrong.