test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Next faction/arc... Terran - perhaps even in the ET timeline ??

2

Comments

  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    Well, buckle up bucko. Cryptic has said the original post ViL story was going to involve Mirror Leeta's return, and finish out her story, and they plan to get back to it after the Disco content is over.
    That's... disheartening.

    The Terran Empire is the most poorly written and juvenile invention to continue to exist in STO. "We've conquered everyone in our universe... now we are coming for yours!" says one of the most incompetent adversaries in Trek lore.

    Take the ISS Discovery. The ship is transported to another universe. It also gets jumped forward in time. It is badly damaged. It is boarded by hostile forces... and 1/3 of the crew decide "F-it! Let's mutiny!". How are we supposed to take this enemy seriously when they are so unstable and chaotic?

    In the recent ground TFO, Terran "commanders" would beam in at the end of the mission shouting cringy action-shlock dialogue "I'm here to kick some butt!", then immediately get stuck on the terrain. 3 seconds later they are defeated and claim "well, you wusses won today, but next time you'll REALLY be sorry!". These morons are who are in charge? I would not put them in charge of operating a light switch!

    More Terran content is not something I look forward to. It's something I grit my teeth and endure. I may have to take frequent breaks to reduce the strain from excessive eye-rolling.
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Well unlike Lorca I have no interest in mutiny :) (Unless the Emperor turns out to be Wesley Crusher)

    The death of one ship will not see the end of the Empire ... in fact with the Charon gone we may end up with some form of real leadership in the Empire!

    The Empire will survive ... it'll always survive! :grin:
    If Cryptic did sit down and write some player content for a mirror character, it would force them to examine how this juvenile grim-dark parody of an evil empire functions. In that instance, I can understand your appeal. If Cryptic was committed to making the Terrans more than one-dimensional punching bags with painfully stupid dialogue, that would pique my interest.

    Seriously, Cryptic. The dialogue needs work. This is a post Iconian-war STO. Braggarts are going to win zero respect from us. Especially since the Terrans cannot back up their obnoxious claims.

    Regardless, I hope you enjoy whatever Mirror/Terran content Cryptic produces. Myself, I am "bracing for impact", as it were.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Georgiou was aboard the Discovery when it went into the future, but she is also going to be in the Section 31 series sometime after Discovery season 3. So I am expecting at some point for the Discovery crew to return to the past, probably post-TOS, where they will leave the Discovery in that nebula. Perhaps it is only Georgiou that takes the ship back and leaves it in the nebula and the Discovery crew retrieves the ship after Craft has been and gone, much like Doc Brown left the Delorean in that cave for his past/future self to retrieve.
    Or they find a way to send the crew back in time, but not the ship. Remember, they took the ship to the future to make sure the data stayed in the future to prevent Control from getting it, and, even after they had neutralized Control, to prevent the data from being able to create another Control like entity. Bringing the ship back to the past, with the data, would be counter to everything they worked for.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    The Terran Empire is the most poorly written and juvenile invention to continue to exist in STO. "We've conquered everyone in our universe... now we are coming for yours!" says one of the most incompetent adversaries in Trek lore.
    Well they did defeat the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance, and the Iconians, and they made the Dominion run and hide like children, and Leeta has the power of the Pah-Wratihs, and the Terran Emperor is supposed to posses an even greater god-like power. They only group they ever lose to is the Prime Universe heroes, and, well, that is because we are the heroes and thus have plot armor to win.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    Well, buckle up bucko. Cryptic has said the original post ViL story was going to involve Mirror Leeta's return, and finish out her story, and they plan to get back to it after the Disco content is over.
    That's... disheartening.

    The Terran Empire is the most poorly written and juvenile invention to continue to exist in STO. "We've conquered everyone in our universe... now we are coming for yours!" says one of the most incompetent adversaries in Trek lore.

    Take the ISS Discovery. The ship is transported to another universe. It also gets jumped forward in time. It is badly damaged. It is boarded by hostile forces... and 1/3 of the crew decide "F-it! Let's mutiny!". How are we supposed to take this enemy seriously when they are so unstable and chaotic?

    In the recent ground TFO, Terran "commanders" would beam in at the end of the mission shouting cringy action-shlock dialogue "I'm here to kick some butt!", then immediately get stuck on the terrain. 3 seconds later they are defeated and claim "well, you wusses won today, but next time you'll REALLY be sorry!". These morons are who are in charge? I would not put them in charge of operating a light switch!
    That's hardly different from most game and movie villains. Stubborn, thuggish idiocy, compulsive petty betrayals and senseless violence are an easy way of showing a character is teh evulz and therefore okay for even the squeaky clean Starfleet pacifists to shoot on sight.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I see people are examining the bad guys and potential of maybe an evil, "bad guy" faction. Which was the original intent of the the Klingon Empire. But we see how well Cryptic has handled that.

    @ambassadorkael#6946 asked last year here and on reddit about a bad guy faction. We currently have four, depending on how you look at the factions we have.

    However we have to take CBS into account here. Remember, they want the Federation to be top dog in all things. So, of course the Terrans aren't going to be that big of a problem. To late to rectify this, they're already setup to be punching bags.

    So what we need is a whole new bad guy faction. One that won't make friends. One that won't surrender. One that won't run away. One that's also prepared for Temporal Interference, thus cutting out the Federation's go back in time and fix it tactic. The problem here would be getting CBS to approve more than a one dimensional street thug as a bad guy.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    I see people are examining the bad guys and potential of maybe an evil, "bad guy" faction. Which was the original intent of the the Klingon Empire. But we see how well Cryptic has handled that.
    Do you mean the original intent in TOS, or in STO? Because the game made it clear, even in the beginning, that the Klingons were right about the Undine infiltration. Klingons stopped being the badguys in TNG, and were never badguys in STO. They were an enemy, but that is different.
    trennan wrote: »
    So what we need is a whole new bad guy faction. One that won't make friends. One that won't surrender. One that won't run away. One that's also prepared for Temporal Interference, thus cutting out the Federation's go back in time and fix it tactic. The problem here would be getting CBS to approve more than a one dimensional street thug as a bad guy.
    Given that most badguys in STO aren't one dimensional street thugs, and generally have somewhat valid reasons for doing what they do other then simple power plays, that isn't really something CBS wouldn't approve. They already approved it like a dozen times for STO.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Georgiou was aboard the Discovery when it went into the future, but she is also going to be in the Section 31 series sometime after Discovery season 3. So I am expecting at some point for the Discovery crew to return to the past, probably post-TOS, where they will leave the Discovery in that nebula. Perhaps it is only Georgiou that takes the ship back and leaves it in the nebula and the Discovery crew retrieves the ship after Craft has been and gone, much like Doc Brown left the Delorean in that cave for his past/future self to retrieve.

    The Section 31 series could be set after the first season of Discovery and before the huge mess with Control since Empress Georgiou has likely gone on numerous Section 31 missions.

    Whenever the Discovery crew ends up, it won't be the 23rd Century since that would ruin the Season 2 ending. Personally, I expect it to be after Nemesis or the destruction of Romulus to avoid the "There was no X from Discovery in TNG/DS9/Voyager" complaint. There is absolutely no reason for Georgiou or anyone else to bring the Discovery back to the 23rd Century since it defeats the whole purpose of the Season Finale. It is possible for the Discovery crew to come back to the late 24th Century at the earliest while leaving Discovery in the 32nd Century.

    So there is two possibilities for the Section 31 series, it is either before Control became a homicidal mainiac or in the late 24th or early 25th Century.

    As far as a Terran Empire faction goes, Cryptic will never introduce a faction that has its own unique endgame content. If the Terran Empire faction is neutered into being nice to the Federation, then we could see a Terran Empire faction. It is more likely that we would get a Terran Rebellion faction instead of a Terran Empire faction. At least with a Liberated Borg faction, all it takes is a few missions, a few costumes, a few ships, and Cryptic can ignore that it even exists.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,048 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    Well, buckle up bucko. Cryptic has said the original post ViL story was going to involve Mirror Leeta's return, and finish out her story, and they plan to get back to it after the Disco content is over.
    That's... disheartening.

    The Terran Empire is the most poorly written and juvenile invention to continue to exist in STO. "We've conquered everyone in our universe... now we are coming for yours!" says one of the most incompetent adversaries in Trek lore.

    Take the ISS Discovery. The ship is transported to another universe. It also gets jumped forward in time. It is badly damaged. It is boarded by hostile forces... and 1/3 of the crew decide "F-it! Let's mutiny!". How are we supposed to take this enemy seriously when they are so unstable and chaotic?

    In the recent ground TFO, Terran "commanders" would beam in at the end of the mission shouting cringy action-shlock dialogue "I'm here to kick some butt!", then immediately get stuck on the terrain. 3 seconds later they are defeated and claim "well, you wusses won today, but next time you'll REALLY be sorry!". These morons are who are in charge? I would not put them in charge of operating a light switch!
    That's hardly different from most game and movie villains. Stubborn, thuggish idiocy, compulsive petty betrayals and senseless violence are an easy way of showing a character is teh evulz and therefore okay for even the squeaky clean Starfleet pacifists to shoot on sight.
    Also that's pretty much the Terran Empire to a T in Star Trek (with the possible exception of Discovery). The Mirrorverse is pretty much the defination of "stupid evil".


    True to lore Terran Empire faction wouldn't be that fun to play as you would have to kill (with sadism that makes Mortal Kombat fatalities seem tame) the characters you like or feel are helpful, while letting the unhelpful jerks live due to killing them not being "evil" enough, unless they choose to mutiny that is which would happen everytime you didn't act totally irredeembly evil.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    Well, buckle up bucko. Cryptic has said the original post ViL story was going to involve Mirror Leeta's return, and finish out her story, and they plan to get back to it after the Disco content is over.
    That's... disheartening.

    The Terran Empire is the most poorly written and juvenile invention to continue to exist in STO. "We've conquered everyone in our universe... now we are coming for yours!" says one of the most incompetent adversaries in Trek lore.

    Take the ISS Discovery. The ship is transported to another universe. It also gets jumped forward in time. It is badly damaged. It is boarded by hostile forces... and 1/3 of the crew decide "F-it! Let's mutiny!". How are we supposed to take this enemy seriously when they are so unstable and chaotic?

    In the recent ground TFO, Terran "commanders" would beam in at the end of the mission shouting cringy action-shlock dialogue "I'm here to kick some butt!", then immediately get stuck on the terrain. 3 seconds later they are defeated and claim "well, you wusses won today, but next time you'll REALLY be sorry!". These morons are who are in charge? I would not put them in charge of operating a light switch!
    That's hardly different from most game and movie villains. Stubborn, thuggish idiocy, compulsive petty betrayals and senseless violence are an easy way of showing a character is teh evulz and therefore okay for even the squeaky clean Starfleet pacifists to shoot on sight.
    Also that's pretty much the Terran Empire to a T in Star Trek (with the possible exception of Discovery). The Mirrorverse is pretty much the defination of "stupid evil".


    True to lore Terran Empire faction wouldn't be that fun to play as you would have to kill (with sadism that makes Mortal Kombat fatalities seem tame) the characters you like or feel are helpful, while letting the unhelpful jerks live due to killing them not being "evil" enough, unless they choose to mutiny that is which would happen everytime you didn't act totally irredeembly evil.

    Sad part about this is, with how they've neutered everything else, one can almost already see this outcome with the Terran Empire. I'm wouldn't be surprised if a "friendship is magic" ending was already setup for it. It falls in the predictable pattern of what we already have.

    I mean, how many wouldn't jump on the chance to play an evil faction, even if it's for nothing more than to break the monotony of what we already have? Personally, I'd jump all over it. Being the good guy is great and all. However, I currently find being the good guy and always winning to be boring.

    This doesn't work for the Terran Empire. At best, they're just a stand-in bad guy for when they have nothing else to use. Just like the Maquis

    This would actually be a great way to expand on Delta Quad. The Solanae and Dyson spheres make great reasons for such a thing to happen. Plus, it would give them reason to expand the Delta Quad sector map. I would say the worm hole in Alpha. But, let's face it, that's been done enough.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Sad part about this is, with how they've neutered everything else, one can almost already see this outcome with the Terran Empire. I'm wouldn't be surprised if a "friendship is magic" ending was already setup for it. It falls in the predictable pattern of what we already have.
    Not really. We didn't make friends with
    -The Devidians
    -The Romulan Star Empire
    -The Tal Shiar
    -The Breen
    -The Borg
    -The Tholians
    -The Sphere Builders
    -The Tzenkethi
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Sad part about this is, with how they've neutered everything else, one can almost already see this outcome with the Terran Empire. I'm wouldn't be surprised if a "friendship is magic" ending was already setup for it. It falls in the predictable pattern of what we already have.
    Not really. We didn't make friends with
    -The Devidians
    -The Romulan Star Empire
    -The Tal Shiar
    -The Breen
    -The Borg
    -The Tholians
    -The Sphere Builders
    -The Tzenkethi

    The Devidians, where a weird set. I liked them, a incorporeal being that feeds on psychic energy. A great homage to Ghostbusters to be sure. Just not something you're going to deal with often.

    The Romulan Star Empire and Tal Shiar, are in the unknown kind of stage, due to how things played out with Sela. They've mostly gone factional amongst themselves. Leaving them mostly as an unknown for this.

    The Breen, what we saw in game here was just one clan. Which is how they work. The Confederacy itself is secretive, so we don't actually know where they stand.

    The Borg, are a yes and a no. For the Collective, no. For the Cooperative, yes. Not so much as an allied power, but friendly.

    Tholians, are Tholians. They do their thing. However, in the shows, there have been Tholian Ambassadors sent to DS9 and to the Romulans as I recall. They've even traded with various people in the shows. One is even seen in Future Proof, at the Temporal Accords signing. Again, more neutral and willing to do what they deem is right by them, which usually entails the time travel side of things. New Romulus because of the Dewan ruins and artifacts.

    The Sphere Builders, other than being a good way to tie the Kelvin timeline into the game, I don't think we're going to see much more of them. This drops them in a neutral, more unknown area, much like the Breen Confederacy. Since they tied them into the Kelvin thing, we could see them again, we'd just need another JJ flick to add more Kelvin stuff.

    The Tzenkethi, are an unknown right now. Sure, Starfleet has had trouble with them, what four times now? But, we have to consider here how are they going to act once it becomes known that the Admiral leading the Path of Madness was a changeling.

    However, with all of this, there are a lot of open ends that go with it. The Devidians being pretty much the only open and closed thing here. Everything else has an open end to it, which is not a bad thing. It gives Cryptic a means of revisiting them with a future bit of story, if they choose to.

    Which, other than the Borg and the Tholians, two factions that are just going to do what they do, we're stuck with a lot of speculation on where the others actually stand. This is of course disregarding game play, you know the repeat things meant to keep the players busy, and looking at the information.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    Well, buckle up bucko. Cryptic has said the original post ViL story was going to involve Mirror Leeta's return, and finish out her story, and they plan to get back to it after the Disco content is over.
    That's... disheartening.

    The Terran Empire is the most poorly written and juvenile invention to continue to exist in STO. "We've conquered everyone in our universe... now we are coming for yours!" says one of the most incompetent adversaries in Trek lore.

    Take the ISS Discovery. The ship is transported to another universe. It also gets jumped forward in time. It is badly damaged. It is boarded by hostile forces... and 1/3 of the crew decide "F-it! Let's mutiny!". How are we supposed to take this enemy seriously when they are so unstable and chaotic?

    In the recent ground TFO, Terran "commanders" would beam in at the end of the mission shouting cringy action-shlock dialogue "I'm here to kick some butt!", then immediately get stuck on the terrain. 3 seconds later they are defeated and claim "well, you wusses won today, but next time you'll REALLY be sorry!". These morons are who are in charge? I would not put them in charge of operating a light switch!
    That's hardly different from most game and movie villains. Stubborn, thuggish idiocy, compulsive petty betrayals and senseless violence are an easy way of showing a character is teh evulz and therefore okay for even the squeaky clean Starfleet pacifists to shoot on sight.
    Also that's pretty much the Terran Empire to a T in Star Trek (with the possible exception of Discovery). The Mirrorverse is pretty much the defination of "stupid evil".


    True to lore Terran Empire faction wouldn't be that fun to play as you would have to kill (with sadism that makes Mortal Kombat fatalities seem tame) the characters you like or feel are helpful, while letting the unhelpful jerks live due to killing them not being "evil" enough, unless they choose to mutiny that is which would happen everytime you didn't act totally irredeembly evil.

    Sad part about this is, with how they've neutered everything else, one can almost already see this outcome with the Terran Empire. I'm wouldn't be surprised if a "friendship is magic" ending was already setup for it. It falls in the predictable pattern of what we already have.

    I mean, how many wouldn't jump on the chance to play an evil faction, even if it's for nothing more than to break the monotony of what we already have? Personally, I'd jump all over it. Being the good guy is great and all. However, I currently find being the good guy and always winning to be boring.
    If they did make a Terran "faction," I would absolutely expect the player crew to defect and join the Feds at the end of the tutorial (or a few missions in at the latest). Because that's what STO does with all "factions."

    But as for "friendship is magic," we actually don't "Befriend" many real enemies. The klingon war ends with the Feddies finally pulling their heads out of their butts and admitting the klinks were right from the beginning, the Dominion was last an enemy in the time of DS9 and none of the other badguys actually turn good. They mostly just go away when we beat them down bad enough and/or get rid of the main warmonger leader (fake!Cooper, Gaul, Noye, etc).

    The iconians took their space crystal ball and went home. The hur'q got their ketracel hangover cured, said thanks and left without even apologizing for what they'd done. Not exactly friendly, that.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    warpangel wrote: »
    The hur'q got their ketracel hangover cured, said thanks and left without even apologizing for what they'd done. Not exactly friendly, that.
    Why would the Hur'q apologize for something that wasn't even their fault? The Hur'q weren't responsible for evolution making them need the substance to be able to access higher brain functions like emotions and empathy, and the Hur'q weren't responsible for the removal of said substance from their planet, causing them to turn out like they did, The Dominion were.
  • rimmarierimmarie Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    Maybe a rebellious uprising within the First Federation.
    would be sorta cool to see some updated First Federation tech

    'We have run out of TRANYA! everyone must DIE!'
  • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    We did make friends with some of them, Tzenkethi joined the Alliance and Tholians are one of the races that sign the Temporal Accords
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    trennan wrote: »
    snip
    None of these factions are "in an unknown state"
    -The Romulan Star Empire was stated in Delta Rising to have collapsed after Sela's kidnapping, with most RSE worlds falling under the Republic's control. Sela herself mentions this in missions like "Uneasy Allies" and "Survivor", where she mentions the forces you destroy were basically her last followers.
    -The Tal Shiar similarly collapsed after Hakeev's death. They did try to rally under Commander Ruul, who had operations on New Romulus, but we rooted him out. Much like the forces of the RSE, in the "Uneasy Allies" mission we both hear and see that the Tal Shiar remnants have been driven to squatting in their old former bases at this point.
    -We know perfectly how the Breen stand. In "Quark's Lucky Seven" we get Starfleet Intelligence data files that talk about how the Breen are continuing their slaving operations against the Deferi, but haven't made any moves to reestablish an alliance with The Dominion. One Breen clan was going after the Preserver data, but the Breen, as a nation, are slavers, who are still slaving.
    -The Borg Collective are straight up hostile. The Borg Cooperative are part of the Delta Alliance, who are themselves allied to the Alpha Quadrant Alliance, making them direct allies of us.
    -The Tholians doing basic diplomatic stuff like having ambassadors to other powers doesn't mean they are friendly to those powers, it just means they are taking steps to make sure they are left alone. The Tholians are also listed as an enemy in the Starfleet Intellignece files we obtain in "Quark's Lucky Seven".
    -Seeing the Sphere Builders or not does not make them neutral. They hate not only the Federation, but the Alliance as a whole, as they blame the Alliance for their predicament of being stuck into an extra-dimensional realm.
    -The Tzenkethi are also not an unknown right now either. Much like with the Breen, the Starfleet Intelligence logs in "Quark's Lucky Seven" indicate that there are whispers of a corrupting in the hgihest ranks of Tzenkethi leaderships, and that they might stage a coup against the Autarch. The arrival of the Hur'q is generally seen as the main reason why the Autarch hasn't been overthrown yet.

    Regardless, the original point of my post was to point out how your comment of "friendship is magic" endings isn't the norm for STO, nor have we done it for most major factions.
    We did make friends with some of them, Tzenkethi joined the Alliance and Tholians are one of the races that sign the Temporal Accords
    The Tzenkethi did not join the Alliance. Neth Parr, and a few other ship captains who agreed with her, left the Tzenketi state to help the Alliance. But they are traitors to the Tzenkethi, and do not represent the Tzenkethi government.
  • n7belannan7belanna Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    Completely agree about the Hur'q. They were manipulated and played, if anyone it's the Dominion that should apologize to everyone.

    While the Tzenkethi (or rather that one admiral) did technically surrender and agree to an armistice, I wouldn't call it "making friends".
    Like the Breen and the Tholians most of them are still out there with a rather hostile attitude towards the Alliance. Even that Tholian ambassador signing the Temporal Accords (that are not happening for a few decades at least) isn't exactly friendly.
    warpangel wrote: »
    If they did make a Terran "faction," I would absolutely expect the player crew to defect and join the Feds at the end of the tutorial (or a few missions in at the latest). Because that's what STO does with all "factions."

    Probably. But that might not be as bad as it sounds in this case. Going back to the original idea behind this thread if the (Terran) player character arrived in the prime universe by accident / (Terran) Daniels or exile it would make sense for them to try to join forces with someone.
    Seeing how manipulative and clever a lot of Terrans are - or are supposed to be, seeing how a lot of those we actually see are rather stupid - we could agree to work with the Federation or the Klingons publicly while collecting data and trying to find a way back in private.
    Apart from maybe adding a few lines of extra dialogue to missions involving the Terran Empire - maybe a dialogue choice like "This could be our way home" - that would be a way to give players a Terran factions that makes sense and allows for them to play the bad guys (during the first missions in the mirror universe) while still giving them the chance to take part in the larger galaxy and later missions.

    "If you're telling me that this ship can skip across the universe on a highway made of mushrooms, I kind of have to go on faith... Be bold. Be brave. Be courageous. Black alert." - Christopher Pike
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    We did make friends with some of them, Tzenkethi joined the Alliance and Tholians are one of the races that sign the Temporal Accords
    The tzenkethi did not join the alliance. And the tholians' weren't friendly with us over the Temporal Accords, either. They just agreed with goal of the treaty. In fact the tholian representative more or less says that if the Accords are not accepted, they would impose their own.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,048 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    We did make friends with some of them, Tzenkethi joined the Alliance and Tholians are one of the races that sign the Temporal Accords
    The tzenkethi did not join the alliance. And the tholians' weren't friendly with us over the Temporal Accords, either. They just agreed with goal of the treaty. In fact the tholian representative more or less says that if the Accords are not accepted, they would impose their own.

    Exactly it's an alliance of convinience for the Tholians not an alliance of friendship, kind of like Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact during early WWII, neither the Soviet Union or National Socialist Germany considered it a lasting treaty but rather a convinient break while they dealt with their other enemies.


    Or if you want an example that doesn't include 2 "evil" nations, the fact that Soviet Union joined the allies during later WWII neither UK or US were exactly pro-soviet at the time but Soviet Union made an convinient ally against the axis powers (well mostly Germany and Japan).
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    trennan wrote: »
    snip
    Regardless, the original point of my post was to point out how your comment of "friendship is magic" endings isn't the norm for STO, nor have we done it for most major factions.
    We did make friends with some of them, Tzenkethi joined the Alliance and Tholians are one of the races that sign the Temporal Accords
    The Tzenkethi did not join the Alliance. Neth Parr, and a few other ship captains who agreed with her, left the Tzenketi state to help the Alliance. But they are traitors to the Tzenkethi, and do not represent the Tzenkethi government.

    The Breen have been slaving since the time of DS9. They're being Breen. If that's enough to make you consider them them bad guys. The Orions and Ferengi are just as guilty. Quark even refers to them as the best mercenaries money can buy. But, as I stated, they're stance on friend, or enemy, is unknown. What you mention is just everyday life to them. I didn't need Starfleet Intelligence to tell me the obvious there.

    Before anyone can argue the Ferengi part to that, off Memory-Alpa, under the Ethics section for Ferengi.
    "Despite, or perhaps because of, never having endured slavery themselves, Ferengi showed themselves willing to engage in slave-trading and the capturing of aliens for slave labor if profitable. (ENT: "Acquisition"; TNG: "Rascals")"

    The Romulans Star Emipre, I didn't deny it collapsed. I said it went more factional. Even when Sela, and her faction, including Hakeev, were in power, there were still others out to dispose of them and rise to power. With the fall of Sela and her faction, that opens the door for those factions to do so. One of those open ends, where we don't know what's going on, or where they stand. We just know what's going on with the Republic, and even they state they're still having troubles with the Tal Shiar.

    The Tholians, I never stated they were allies. I said they were neutral. They're going to do what they're going to do, and they aren't going to care about who it upsets, kind of have to admire them for that. As for the Starfleet Intelligence report, well that's been on file since TNG/DS9 times. So much so, that Starfleet runs simulations on how to combat them, if they chose to do something. Again, Starfleet Intelligence, showing the lack there of, and stating the obvious.

    The Sphere Builders may hate hate the Alliance. However, they're not in open hostilities. This one is on the unknown burner, since the Thox Uthat and its ability to counter them. This falls more in the Cold War area, since neither side can currently make a move. Who knows, we could see these teamed up with the Nah'kul later on, since they hate the Federation too.

    The Tzenkethi are currently an unknown. As you said, reports state there's corruption and a possible coupe that was planned. But given the circumstance, we don't know if that takes place, or if the Autarch stays in power. Nor do we have any notion of what their stance is going to be with which ever way that goes.

    The Borg Cooperative, I had agreed they were friendly. I had actually forget that they had joined the Delta Alliance.

    Which leaves us with the Collective, the only openly hostile faction still left out there. I didn't deny this fact. I suppose we could add the Voth to this part as well.

    As I said, you kind of have to remove the game play here. Take those TFO's, swap them out to a single player one and done mission for the story arcs. I'm not removing the Red Alerts here, like Deep Space Encounters, these happen. Though, we do need some renegade Fed DSE's to finish balancing these out properly.

    But we digress. Since the subject is the potential for another faction. Of what we know, only the Cooperative currently fits within those parameters. Since they're already a member of the alliance.


    However, if you want to discuss a bad guy, I point you to Kal Dono. Here's a guy, that came back from the future, on the simple interest of saving his on rear. He even admits that he came back to ensure his ancestors survived, i.e. personal gain. This is a direct violation of, not only the Temporal Accords, but the Temporal Prime Directive. One that you go along with, which is the cause of the Temporal Cold War. Had you stopped Kal Dono, confiscated the Thox Uthat, saved as many Lukari as possible, and left things to take it's course, like you're suppose to. Then the Temporal Cold War would have never been a thing, as the Tholians wouldn't have stole the Thox Uthat and used it on the Nah'kul sun. But since we helped Kal Dono, well, we're just as guilty of this as he is.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    trennan wrote: »
    However, if you want to discuss a bad guy, I point you to Kal Dono. Here's a guy, that came back from the future, on the simple interest of saving his on rear. He even admits that he came back to ensure his ancestors survived, i.e. personal gain. This is a direct violation of, not only the Temporal Accords, but the Temporal Prime Directive. One that you go along with, which is the cause of the Temporal Cold War. Had you stopped Kal Dono, confiscated the Thox Uthat, saved as many Lukari as possible, and left things to take it's course, like you're suppose to. Then the Temporal Cold War would have never been a thing, as the Tholians wouldn't have stole the Thox Uthat and used it on the Nah'kul sun. But since we helped Kal Dono, well, we're just as guilty of this as he is.
    This ignores that the Temporal Cold War actually began because we used the Annorax during the Iconian War, which created a new timeline where the Tuterians attempted to use Solanane technology to defend themselves from the Borg, and failed. Said failure resulted in their banishment to the trans-dimensional realm they now reside in as the Sphere Builders, and their hatred of the Alliance. Said timeline alteration is also what led to the erasure of Noye's wife, which is what caused him to gather some Krenim rebels to steal the Annorax in an attempt to get revenge on the Alliance. The Vorgons joined the Temporal Cold War because we accidentally killed Boratus' sister, and Mirror Leeta just hates us for thwarting her efforts in previous arcs.

    The Sphere Builders, Krenim, Vorgons, and Terran Empire's, involvement in the Temporal Cold War has jack squat to do with Kal Dano. So even if we had stopped him from doing anything, and confiscated the Tox Uthat, the TCW would have still happened. As such, he literally CANNOT be responsible for it in any way shape or form. He is just another victim.

    This also ignores that Daniels is the one who gave Kal Dano the time ship he uses, and is the one who sent Kal Dano back into the past in the first place, so that Kal Dano could fufill his role in history, meaning his actions WEREN'T in violation of the Temporal Accords. In fact, trying to stop Kal Dano would have been in violation in the Temporal Accords.
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,901 Arc User
    The Tholians were right. We should just ban time travel altogether.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    thay8472 wrote: »
    The Tholians were right. We should just ban time travel altogether.
    Ih6qOMv.jpg
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,808 Arc User
    thay8472 wrote: »
    The Tholians were right. We should just ban time travel altogether.

    Easier said than done, time travel is Pandora's box, it has been opened and will not close.
    Back on topic, a Terran playable faction would be interesting
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,048 Arc User
      spiritborn wrote: »
      warpangel wrote: »
      We did make friends with some of them, Tzenkethi joined the Alliance and Tholians are one of the races that sign the Temporal Accords
      The tzenkethi did not join the alliance. And the tholians' weren't friendly with us over the Temporal Accords, either. They just agreed with goal of the treaty. In fact the tholian representative more or less says that if the Accords are not accepted, they would impose their own.

      Exactly it's an alliance of convinience for the Tholians not an alliance of friendship, kind of like Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact during early WWII, neither the Soviet Union or National Socialist Germany considered it a lasting treaty but rather a convinient break while they dealt with their other enemies.


      Or if you want an example that doesn't include 2 "evil" nations, the fact that Soviet Union joined the allies during later WWII neither UK or US were exactly pro-soviet at the time but Soviet Union made an convinient ally against the axis powers (well mostly Germany and Japan).

      Someone slap me please as I forgot probably most important alliance of convience (for me) from WWII, aka the "alliance" between Finland and Germany which is a pretty a text book case of an alliance of convience as Finland had no other (potential) allies since Sweden was neutral and Russia (well the Soviet Union) was kind of unavaible as an ally due being an enemy at the time.
    • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
      It was a lot of fun to play a villain in City of Villains. I wouldn't mind having the ability to play a "bad guy" faction here.
      Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
      thecosmic1 wrote:
      Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

      Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
    • tigeria#8677 tigeria Member Posts: 15 Arc User
      The ET = Enterprise (nx 01 - Archer time)... (time - not timeline - my bad).. in that time, the Terran empire is not the overwhelming power they apperantly are when Leeta is around... it could a way to add both wortls/or actually revisit the time AND add the Terran universe...
      In my post i also mentioned Freedom fighters.. reason where to add - if cryptic DONT want a evil faction, how bout a Resistence Fighter faction based in Mirror Universe.. maybe or maybe not in Enterprise time... u may actually even start as terran but in the course of a few missions, for "reasons", u join the resistence.. and as part of the arc end up in the prime universe.. weither u can or want to return, thats pretty openended.. if ure a wanted resistence fighter, or a hunted terran turncoat, or just a intelligence/traitor looking for a way back or there to spy.., that can be whatever works for cryptic/the story...

      The 2 prime elements i wanted to put forward in my suggestion were... Mirror Universe AND Enterprise time. We got Discovery (disappointly short).. we have TOS (with revisits in agents of yesterday arc), we have modern time, etc etc.. what we dont have, are the Enterprise Time/era represented in anyway, besides a short visit hunting the "thingy to destroy orb's (name eludes me :) ) where we see another angle of a story told in ET. So the idea is.. next arc.. combine Archer-time, and mirror universe.. and a good long story.. how, what where... no bad guys, bad guy going good.. bad guy undercover... whatever works for cryptic :)

      - Tiger
    • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,326 Arc User
      Would not mind seeing some much fuller and longer story arcs for expansion additions, though that would mean longer time betwen expansion to allow for them to get such additional content done. A story arc an expansion that deals with the many factions delving into the past, and researching on psionic traits that races have would be interesting, even researching an studing how we have heard of races making technology that focuses an boosts such talents in the past as well would be interesting (like the psionic weapon made by the Vulcans i think we saw in tng).

      Though I would much rather see some minor fallow-up arcs that has us go back into quadrants we had been in already, and see what has been happening since we moved on. Like for me seeing how the delta quad is going with the Kobali, the delta quad alliance, and even the civil war going on in the Vaadawaur race (is the blue gils still affecting them , who won, and what happened after the civil war). Even though these might be short arcs it would allow the dev team to produce something small an quicker than a full arc, which the playerbase could consume giving the team abit more time to expand on main story arc they are working on either existing or upcoming expansions.
    • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
      swtor does a fantastic job of showing how 'good' the "bad guy" faction can be... I always loved how my imperial agent or sith lord could be less corrupt and self serving than most of the oh so "good guy" republic plot lines. Even in the more recent expansions you can see the sith while still the "bad guys" do more to help the galaxy as a whole than not.

      the TE could fill a similar slot, then again so could imperial remnants of the RSE.
    Sign In or Register to comment.