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So what is coming in place of the Foundry?

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  • nagoraknagorak Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Truthfully, the game "lost me" years ago due to the poor support for the Foundry. Now the Foundry is gone for good, but I got fed up with its treatment even when it was around and in a better state than it is today. I do feel sad I didn't have much chance to play many of the missions in the Foundry during my brief time back in the game (just coincidentally came back just before the Foundry sunset was announced). I'm going to try to hit a few more missions today and tomorrow if I can.

    Once the Foundry is gone, what I plan to do is play through the storyline missions and then I'll basically just quit the game again. I couldn't care less about loot grinding or running task forces over and over. I really only like the game for the story (combat is fun enough, but not worth playing for in itself). If the Foundry were still around I'd maybe keep playing longer, but as it is I'll just put the game down again.

    That being said, I have so much Zen saved up from my lifetime sub that Cryptic will never end up getting any (more) money out of me anyway. So, I suspect they don't really care much what I do.

    The Foundry was special because of the UGC connection but it was also special because in several respects it outpaced official development through communal problem solving and iterative learning. Ie. we learned how to work with the format in ways that Cryptic (because of longer lag times in production processes and fewer content designers than existed active Foundry authors) hasn't caught up with yet in official content. Pacing, emphasis, and story/combat balance (to me) feels suboptimal, official character arcs are mechanically rudimentary, and there's some definite decisions (like fully voicing all dialog in spite of the acclimatization forced by boffs and level design practices) which I think places significant constraints on Cryptic further refining their approach to missions (minor expansions on the format requires a lot more attenuated investment.)

    Basically what I'd like to see (and what I think would most compensate for losing the Foundry) is a direct investment in narrative content that can be produced more cheaply and with greater character depth. Optional dialog and level building like mine/Greendragoon/JohnnySnowball/Starfarertheta is the most immediate way to do this, though I think they could find a great integration with a mechanical revamp of social/adventures zones to host this kind of content and allow for minor mission additions utilizing existing spaces that could help fill the gap between more expansive official episodes. Plus it gives a format to fall back on with future cut-backs in STO's level of development (putting everything on official episodes is not sustainable, long-term. Eventually the release frequency is going to fall below player engagement threshold. Having something else to keep players going with the narrative will help set that point back if not provide a long-term stable strategy.)

    Honestly, this is what I've thought from the start: Cryptic should hire some of the better Foundry authors to make content. Not as full time employees, but on consignment. In other words, you provide a mission meeting some general parameters and get paid $X. I mean, people were doing it for free, so if you give them even a small amount as an incentive...

    I know it's not going to happen, and there are certainly some hurdles that would have to be overcome, but if someone had really been thinking at Cryptic, I think it should have happened. There is a reservoir of content creators out there that could have helped flesh out the game, and I think the Foundry could have been just the first step to unlocking that. Unfortunately, Cryptic just didn't see it.

    Anyway, it is what it is.
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  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    To replace the Foundry? Or make me miss it less? Nothing. Because I know that's what Cryptic will produce to fill the void. Unlike Hostess, I don't see the Foundry making a comeback in the future. The game will continue as it is doing. Grasping for mediocrity, and kicking things along w/ gambleboxes or reskinned dross to get elevated over gold. The missions nowadays aren't enough to really entice me past a few playthroughs, and not immersive in the slightest.

    It's the best nothing ever, and the players love it! /sarcasm
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    To replace the Foundry? Or make me miss it less? Nothing. Because I know that's what Cryptic will produce to fill the void. Unlike Hostess, I don't see the Foundry making a comeback in the future. The game will continue as it is doing. Grasping for mediocrity, and kicking things along w/ gambleboxes or reskinned dross to get elevated over gold. The missions nowadays aren't enough to really entice me past a few playthroughs, and not immersive in the slightest.

    It's the best nothing ever, and the players love it! /sarcasm

    They are called lockboxes and you always get lobi or something else even if it is not the item that you desire to have. Can't stand when people say that. They are not gambleboxes and life is like that in a way. Thanks. :)
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,336 Arc User
    So yeah... What is Cryptic working on that will render the Foundry un-necessary?

    Your question means you completely misunderstand the situation. The reason the foundry is being removed has nothing to do with anything being developed. I suggest you read the news post they made, because the reason is clearly stated.

    Actually, I understand the situation perfectly. I know there is not a plan to replace the foundry. If you paid attention, you will see that I am directing a question to those who will be missing the foundry regarding what Cryptic might add to the game itself that could mitigate sense of loss.

    The only sensible thing that I feel would make people happy is if Cryptic would do more missions per release than just 1-2 every 3 months. However, what would probably have to happen is that they would have to sacrifice something in order to make this happen, such as dumping voice acting just to suit the need of more episode releases.

    What cryptic should do though is release some kind of content that will make people want to play and not twiddling their thumbs after one playthrough, waiting for the next release to come.

    TSC_Signature_Gen_4_-_Vegeta_Small.png
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    Especially now since new Episodes aren't really Featured anymore. No multiple playthroughs over the course of three to four weeks to pick up components of a Set or Traits, etc. Now it is one Item not part of any Set and done except for trash.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • edited April 2019
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  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,414 Arc User
    Stuff
    Um? I said my experience of STO's power activation for all ground and space powers are broken.
    Read: BROKEN.
    I'm not going to make a video of it to prove it since anyone on my friends list I ask about that has the exact same experience with STO and with no other MMO. It's been a while since I tried Neverwinter, but I believe power activation there is perfectly fine.

    Not going to take troll bait about the inevitable "it's your computer" "it's your connection" "it's just you" "It's in your head" "Have you tried reinstalling."

    Overwatch was a crappy example, but a nice and easy one to illustrate the problem that STO has. Want another? Planetside2 MMOFPS. 96+vs 96+ players bunched up in a small base, part of a giant map full of stuff happening all at the same time, with zero time zone restrictions or ping limits.

    I hit cloak, it cloaks me. Other players, whether friendlies or enemies see me cloak with some delay since some things are clientside others server-side. It's not perfect, but full of nonsense, benefits and drawbacks, but point being, you toggle something, that something goes on instantly.
    I toggle overshield, overshield goes on. I click to shoot, bullet/projectile/rocket/whatever shoots.

    Back to the topic, I don't know if anything is coming in place of the foundry, but I do know it won't be fixing BROKEN power activation.
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  • duasynduasyn Member Posts: 492 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Only way the Foundry would return is w/ STO2 and Cryptic keeping proper documentation on what code they write so knowledge isn't lost when people leave the company. "Bob was awesome with the code for ______, so we had him do all that. Then Bob left and we didn't have any notes about how he did it." :'( I believe they actually said something like that before.

    Which can be understandable in a game that continues to grow for years and years. Just means you really need to keep notes!
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    sthe91 wrote: »
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    To replace the Foundry? Or make me miss it less? Nothing. Because I know that's what Cryptic will produce to fill the void. Unlike Hostess, I don't see the Foundry making a comeback in the future. The game will continue as it is doing. Grasping for mediocrity, and kicking things along w/ gambleboxes or reskinned dross to get elevated over gold. The missions nowadays aren't enough to really entice me past a few playthroughs, and not immersive in the slightest.

    It's the best nothing ever, and the players love it! /sarcasm

    They are called lockboxes and you always get lobi or something else even if it is not the item that you desire to have. Can't stand when people say that. They are not gambleboxes and life is like that in a way. Thanks. :)

    I'll call it what I feel is appropriate. Players gamble for the big prize at the end, either to fly, or make a lot of EC on. And when they don't get it, the "Gambler's Itch" kicks in for many of them. Increasing whatever their expenditures, in attempt to "change their luck." They're rolling the dice, after spending currency in some form, on a minigame of chance. So complain all you want on what people call it, it's not going to change their minds, just because you don't like it. Thanks. ;)

    TLDR: Your feelings don't trump my choice to call things as I see them. Move along. ;)
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    So yeah... What is Cryptic working on that will render the Foundry un-necessary?

    Your question means you completely misunderstand the situation. The reason the foundry is being removed has nothing to do with anything being developed. I suggest you read the news post they made, because the reason is clearly stated.

    Actually, I understand the situation perfectly. I know there is not a plan to replace the foundry. If you paid attention, you will see that I am directing a question to those who will be missing the foundry regarding what Cryptic might add to the game itself that could mitigate sense of loss.

    The only sensible thing that I feel would make people happy is if Cryptic would do more missions per release than just 1-2 every 3 months. However, what would probably have to happen is that they would have to sacrifice something in order to make this happen, such as dumping voice acting just to suit the need of more episode releases.

    What cryptic should do though is release some kind of content that will make people want to play and not twiddling their thumbs after one playthrough, waiting for the next release to come.

    vegeta, the problem is that Cryptic doesn't have the chops to constantly churn missions out in packs with their release pattern, or their staff roster. Many other MMOs and MMORPGs work on expansions with a large number of quests/areas/content(such as The Burning Crusade from WoW, or The Scars of Velious from Everquest 1), or they work on various quest packs(such as the case with LOTRO or DDO), and then release those in sectioned bundles. STO doesn't have raids with specific/rare drops(whether as costume pieces or gear). Not since they shunted things to where anyone can easily get what they need from episodes, crafting, or reputation grinding. And they don't really have endgame content that encourages things such as team puzzle solving with rewards.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    duasyn wrote: »
    Only way the Foundry would return is w/ STO2 and Cryptic keeping proper documentation on what code they write so knowledge isn't lost when people leave the company. "Bob was awesome with the code for ______, so we had him do all that. Then Bob left and we didn't have any notes about how he did it." :'( I believe they actually said something like that before.

    Which can be understandable in a game that continues to grow for years and years. Just means you really need to keep notes!

    Not just notes, but maybe someone to work alongside "Bob," possibly to learn how things work. So that there IS a contingency plan in case "Bob" is incapacitated, or no longer with the company. And to actually do something to ensure that a code monkey working on a big function for a game will stay with you. But Cryptic bears responsibility for "Bob" leaving, and not having notes. Documentation would be a big step.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Reskined TFOs on an endless cycle.

    Yea! I can hardly wait for Pahvo Nebula Rescue, Pahvo Assault, Khitomer in Pahvo and Brotherhood of the Pahvo. :(

    We shal also stay tuned for exiting new rewards like [Pahvo Rotgut] and the infamous [Pahvo Negotiator]. :D

    What about this ones? :D

    Battle of Pahvo
    Pahvo Disconnected
    Pahvo Assault (ground)
    Counterpahvo
    Crystalline Pahvo
    Pahvo Found
    Days of Pahvo
    Defense of Pahvo One
    Federation Pahvo Alert
    Pahvo Kills
    Pahvo Sphere
    Pahvo Onslaught
    Infected: The Pahvo
    Pahvo Imperial Minefield
    Pahvo Fleet Defense
    Storming Pahvo
    Pahvo Tribulations
    Pahvo Front
    Pahvo Assault (space)
    Pahvo Shuttle Event
    Pahvo: Ensnared
    Pahvo Cycle

    For as long as Cryptic advertises them as „all new PvE maps“ in the respective release blogs I’m fine by all of them. Otherwise I might suspect a reskin. :p

    Pahvo Kills lol
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    Let us use the costume stuffs from foundry into tailor.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    Let us use the costume stuffs from foundry into tailor.

    Oh yes please! I'd love to get my hands on the M.A.C.O. Tactical outfit. <3

    tactical.pngec21e637d6bfe73ae4d28fb34c30a6b9.png

    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,015 Arc User
    More episodes would be nice to fill that Foundry sized hole
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
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    • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      Let us use the costume stuffs from foundry into tailor.

      A neat option we had in the Foundry tailor was the ability to select costume categories independently for different body regions. So, we could mix and match upper, lower, and head parts for some great effect (I also never found the clipping issues to be all that frequent.) Getting this in the main tailor would be a nice update, leveraging how much content we already have in the game with added combinations.
      Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
      Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
      Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
    • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
      Let us use the costume stuffs from foundry into tailor.

      A neat option we had in the Foundry tailor was the ability to select costume categories independently for different body regions. So, we could mix and match upper, lower, and head parts for some great effect (I also never found the clipping issues to be all that frequent.) Getting this in the main tailor would be a nice update, leveraging how much content we already have in the game with added combinations.
      Really? That's like it works in Champions then. Would indeed be awesome to import it here.
    • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
      ltminns wrote: »
      Especially now since new Episodes aren't really Featured anymore. No multiple playthroughs over the course of three to four weeks to pick up components of a Set or Traits, etc. Now it is one Item not part of any Set and done except for trash.
      Featured episodes were stopped because people complained about having to replay story missions over and over, when they aren't really built for that sort of repetition. That is why they went to featured TFOs, since TFOs are designed to be replayed in that manner.
      That is Cryptics greatest failing. Taking their cues from people who don't want to play the game.
    • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      warpangel wrote: »
      Let us use the costume stuffs from foundry into tailor.

      A neat option we had in the Foundry tailor was the ability to select costume categories independently for different body regions. So, we could mix and match upper, lower, and head parts for some great effect (I also never found the clipping issues to be all that frequent.) Getting this in the main tailor would be a nice update, leveraging how much content we already have in the game with added combinations.
      Really? That's like it works in Champions then. Would indeed be awesome to import it here.

      Few examples for the results in STO (spoiler tagged to help keep thread neat), I can see why they may have originally wanted to "simply" the setup in this respect but they are missing out on a pretty accessible expansion of possibilities with some awesome outcomes indeed.
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      warpangel wrote: »
      ltminns wrote: »
      Especially now since new Episodes aren't really Featured anymore. No multiple playthroughs over the course of three to four weeks to pick up components of a Set or Traits, etc. Now it is one Item not part of any Set and done except for trash.
      Featured episodes were stopped because people complained about having to replay story missions over and over, when they aren't really built for that sort of repetition. That is why they went to featured TFOs, since TFOs are designed to be replayed in that manner.
      That is Cryptics greatest failing. Taking their cues from people who don't want to play the game.

      The lack of optional dialog in most episodes I'd also throw in this category. I think there's the mindset "if players generally don't use it it's not worth building" but with certain things like optional dialog it makes the mission a whole lot more accommodating to a range of interests. Ie. players who want more mission get to calibrate it against how much more they explore, while those who want to proceed can do so without being bogged down. Even if most fall into the latter category its darn well worth the minor effort of writing some NPC conversations and worldbuilding interactions (because the mission would be so much less for everyone without it.)

      It's one of the best mechanics my missions employed to balance story and combat without sacrificing depth.

      ViL included some but Cryptic also repeatedly made a "new Foundry author" mistake of throwing down a half-dozen or so required dialog contacts to provide background exposition and character resolutions that the player may or may not need (this was very much optional dialog material) to make sure everyone experienced the cameos (they cost). Again, seemingly justifying the effort based on completion rate while forgoing the ability for players to calibrate their experience per initiative and optional dialog (something that changes not only between players but also between subsequent mission runs.)
      Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
      Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
      Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
    • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
      Stuff
      Um? I said my experience of STO's power activation for all ground and space powers are broken.
      Read: BROKEN.
      I'm not going to make a video of it to prove it
      Or explain the actual problem apparently. You're not actually stating what STO is doing.
      Technically this is merely my best guess, but this seems to actually be an aspect of the UI, and when it shows the results of your actions. CO/STO/NW seem to do what is called a "3-way handshake" before activating skills. IE: I push the button to shoot a guy, my game client tells the server, the server says OK you shot the guy, THEN I see myself shoot the guy.
      Honestly, the bigger problem is that people are cancelling their own powers. Pretty much every MMO I can think of has activation times for their powers, be it a 1 second activation, half a second, 1/3 a second, etc. etc. STO has this same thing.

      And like all other MMOs, when telling your character to attack, or, in STO's case, pressing the space bar to fire all weapons, you are giving the game a command. If the command to fire all weapons is made within the activation time of the first command, this ends up cancelling the first command since it wasn't given its time to activate. And since most people in STO just mindlessly jam the spacebar to fire everything, they end up constantly negating their own power activations by giving the ship a new command before the power has time to activate.
      True, like in ground combat, you tell your guy to throw a grenade. You see him get out a grenade, assume a grenade throwing stance, then eventually throw it. You can interrupt this by doing something else.
      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      My character Tsin'xing
      Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
      So yeah... What is Cryptic working on that will render the Foundry un-necessary?

      Your question means you completely misunderstand the situation. The reason the foundry is being removed has nothing to do with anything being developed. I suggest you read the news post they made, because the reason is clearly stated.

      Actually, I understand the situation perfectly. I know there is not a plan to replace the foundry. If you paid attention, you will see that I am directing a question to those who will be missing the foundry regarding what Cryptic might add to the game itself that could mitigate sense of loss.

      Let me make sure I understand you. You both

      A: knew the actual reason the foundry was being removed (due to it being an old system they could not properly maintain) and
      B: knew nothing was being developed to replace it, and yet sill asked this question:

      What IS Cryptic WORKING on that will render the foundry UN-necessary?

      Why would you ask that question worded that way if you actually understood these things?

      The-Grand-Nagus
      Join Date: Sep 2008

      og9Zoh0.jpg
    • alexanderb#7559 alexanderb Member Posts: 188 Arc User
      artan42 wrote: »
      Reskined TFOs on an endless cycle.

      Yea! I can hardly wait for Pahvo Nebula Rescue, Pahvo Assault, Khitomer in Pahvo and Brotherhood of the Pahvo. :(

      We shal also stay tuned for exiting new rewards like [Pahvo Rotgut] and the infamous [Pahvo Negotiator]. :D

      What about this ones? :D

      Battle of Pahvo
      Pahvo Disconnected
      Pahvo Assault (ground)
      Counterpahvo
      Crystalline Pahvo
      Pahvo Found
      Days of Pahvo
      Defense of Pahvo One
      Federation Pahvo Alert
      Pahvo Kills
      Pahvo Sphere
      Pahvo Onslaught
      Infected: The Pahvo
      Pahvo Imperial Minefield
      Pahvo Fleet Defense
      Storming Pahvo
      Pahvo Tribulations
      Pahvo Front
      Pahvo Assault (space)
      Pahvo Shuttle Event
      Pahvo: Ensnared
      Pahvo Cycle

      For as long as Cryptic advertises them as „all new PvE maps“ in the respective release blogs I’m fine by all of them. Otherwise I might suspect a reskin. :p

      Pahvo Kills lol

      Sure, they only tell on the live stream it's a copy of another PVE :p
    • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
      warpangel wrote: »
      That is Cryptics greatest failing. Taking their cues from people who don't want to play the game.
      Yes, those people TOTALLY don't want to play the game... which is why Cryptic changed it over to TFOs, something you have to play MORE TIMES then the individual missions in order to get the rewards.

      Because playing something more is indicative of not wanting to play the game.
      When the only "playing" that's actually required is waiting for a timer to run out, absolutely.
    • edited April 2019
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    • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      warpangel wrote: »
      When the only "playing" that's actually required is waiting for a timer to run out, absolutely.
      I have run into all of 2 AFKers in all the times I played either Pahvo TFO, and I played them twice a day at least. So that's what, around 80 TFO matches, and around 320 people on my team?

      Most people who chose to play games do so because they want to play them, regardless of if the game "forces" them to play it or not once they log in, as you seem to want the game to be designed to do.
      Yeah, what a horrible thought, a game you'd have to earn rewards in by playing it. Or even worse, actually winning it. :worried:

      But never worry, STO is all about these Pahvos these days, that give you all the rewards just for showing up. Too bad they got nothing left to give for actually playing.
    • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 959 Arc User
      It is my hope that more resources can be diverted into story content. The completion of the Klingon War revamp and a more expedient Romulan revamp since it's my favourite faction I would like it to look as shiny as the new stuff and as soon as possible.

      But then what would I know I play games as a story telling medium and am actively deterred by the games as a service mentality. Currently in witness protection from EA.
    This discussion has been closed.