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Star trek on ship AI

nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
One thing that puzzles me about star trek is the lack of ship artifical intellgance.
In other sci fis like halo and mass effect humanity has created Ai to serve on a ship these Ai normally perform tasks quicker than lviing beings and operate systems as if they are part of it (with hull is it skin the guns are its arms ect) yet star trek doesnt seem to address any species to have such technology.
Further more star treks computers seem rather limited constantly breaking down and only able to perform actions like a more advanced siri, given star trek technology has holograms and andriods its not like they are afraid of AI yet when it comes to starships they seem to ignore the advantages of having such on board.
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  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Imagine a being that has no blood platelets to heal wounds, can't feed itself, can't care for itself, is totally dependent on someone else for the most basic self-maintenance, but has the power to level a continent.

    now imagine it being more intelligent than the beings that do these tasks, and can force it to go where they like, fight who they want fought, carry their stuff, and take their abuse.

    If this being is sapient, how long before it would either go insane, (psychotic or catatonic) or rebel ("you want me to go where??")

    and that's assuming it's true AI and has free will.

    you're creating a slave-it can't feed itself, can't heal itself, can't maintain itself, and must do what it's told, and it will be disposed of when it's obsolete.

    I don't think the Federation lacks the capability, I think they actually believe in their ideals. They wouldn't do it, because they're not a bunch of dirty slavers.
    Well there not afraid of AI otherwise data and the Doctor would not exsist.
    Most humans cant heal themselves they need a medic and in starfleet the chain of command exsist so doing what one is told is expected but i suppsoe the Ai would be born into starfleet rather than geting to choose to join, as for being disposed of that is a good point id just assume they could remove it once a ship is decomisioned but what they would do after i dont know.

    Still star trek doesnt show any other species that does this, the romulan empire for example would not care about the freedoms of a AI ship and most likly shackle it to prevent rebellion, we never see another species use this type of technology it just doesnt exsist.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    Point to make is that Starfleet did experiment with AI: the result was the M5, several starships destroyed, hundreds dead, etc.

    The Romulans would have probably heard about that and decided that it wasn't worth the trouble. The Klingons are frequently portrayed as distrustful of machines in general. The Cardassians have AI, if the Dreadnought missiles are anything to go by.

    Furthermore, consider that Starfleet has a few issues with AI: yes, you have Data, but with Data you had the issue of whether he was or wasn't Starfleet property because of his self-awareness.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    One thing that puzzles me about star trek is the lack of ship artifical intellgance.
    In other sci fis like halo and mass effect humanity has created Ai to serve on a ship these Ai normally perform tasks quicker than lviing beings and operate systems as if they are part of it (with hull is it skin the guns are its arms ect) yet star trek doesnt seem to address any species to have such technology.
    Further more star treks computers seem rather limited constantly breaking down and only able to perform actions like a more advanced siri, given star trek technology has holograms and andriods its not like they are afraid of AI yet when it comes to starships they seem to ignore the advantages of having such on board.

    I'm sure starfleet experiemented on a number of different innovations over time and one or two just didn't work out. Starfleet have always relied on computer systems to regulate starships to about 80%-90% of the functions while the earlier forms were very primitive, they worked well enough and then the LCARS computer system came along and it has been a very successful computer system, and not only does it regulate systems on the ship but it can also act as a library and database for all manner of on and off duty stuff.

    The amount of breakdowns for computer systems have been minimal without outside intervention over the duration. only under certain conditions does the computer fail to work as it should or is simply insufficient to deal with stuff even it can't fast enough or lacks memory, space and so on.

    Data is the work of a mad scientist, along with Lore and Tainer (after Soong's wife died), again with outside intervention data can be manipulated and its seen a few times but when have you ever seen data malfunction just like that? Same for any other computer of the TNG era, they were bulletproof reliable when left alone from outside influence.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    The Klingons are frequently portrayed as distrustful of machines in general. The Cardassians have AI, if the Dreadnought missiles are anything to go by.

    I don't think Klingons are distrusteful of computer systems as they have computers everywhere in their empire, even in their hands within disruptor guns and their communicators. i think its more along the lines they get angry frequently with what they have and desire something better.

    I doubt the missile's computer is an AI, it was clearly an ordinary computer system with some safeguards but Torres reprogrammed the computer a little too well, a few years later and she found the missile through voyager and had a hell of a time undoing her own mistake. Even with Torres' computer system in place the system still processes like an ordinary computer.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    One thing that puzzles me about star trek is the lack of ship artifical intellgance.
    In other sci fis like halo and mass effect humanity has created Ai to serve on a ship these Ai normally perform tasks quicker than lviing beings and operate systems as if they are part of it (with hull is it skin the guns are its arms ect) yet star trek doesnt seem to address any species to have such technology.
    Further more star treks computers seem rather limited constantly breaking down and only able to perform actions like a more advanced siri, given star trek technology has holograms and andriods its not like they are afraid of AI yet when it comes to starships they seem to ignore the advantages of having such on board.
    Because Star Trek is a product of the 1960s, when such things simply weren't in the public imagination because computers were the size of busses and had less computing power than your wristwatch.
    You really need to read more SF from that period. It was assumed in the SF world at the time that AI was inevitable once computers reached a certain level of complexity - one of the great disappointments in AI development was when it was shown that this was wrong. (And then later we learned that there's a certain amount of neural activity that's conducted using quantum physics, which is probably why it was wrong.)

    In Trek, however, there's a history of AI going bad, from the M5 system to Lore; the underlying concept seems to be a mix of what Asimov called "Frankenstein Syndrome" and the idea that trying to program an entire consciousness all at once is bound to fail. The one success they could point to, Data, was in fact given a sort of ethical structure for future learning to build within, then started off as a sort of very intelligent child. He learned from the people who rescued him, a process which David Brin has proposed may be the only way to create true AI - don't try to program them with a sense of morality, teach it to them.

    So in a nutshell, yes, they are kind of afraid of AI. There are a lot of supposedly tech-savvy people in the real world who fear AI. And while they're willing to tolerate it in something they can see as friendly, like Data, they're not giving an AI a starship for a body.

    As for Klingons, they don't fear AI, they just don't trust technologies that can be broken by simply hitting them with a hammer. Look at their ships - clearly designed to take a beating, not just in combat, but under any and all circumstances, including being stolen by a bunch of humans, flown through time, and used to steal a breeding pair of whales. You try converting a Starfleet cruiser to suddenly carry several hundred tons of seawater and its inhabitants using improvised tools!
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  • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    Well there is the "Captain Dunsel" concept to consider. With the M5 computer system Starfleet came close to the point where the human element would be rendered obsolete. Starfleet loves its manned exploration program so it is going to be reluctant to adopt technologies that would undermine it.


    As for the Federation's view on AI in general, there is a bit of hypocrisy going around. The Federation likes to claim that it recognizes the existence and rights of sapient AI, but in practice they generally only acknowledge it when convenient. The moment it is inconvenient to their plans they take the attitude that they are just household appliances that the foolish humor with talk of being alive.

    For example, Data's existence as a true lifeform was never established under Federation law, the courts ducked out of making that determination out of fear for how immense and long lasting the consequences would be.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Starfleet ships do have a level of AI to help with ship functions, but nowhere near that of Data or what is seen in Andromeda.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    Because Star Trek is a product of the 1960s, when such things simply weren't in the public imagination because computers were the size of busses and had less computing power than your wristwatch.

    You are partly right, the reason is that it's a product of the 60s. But not because a lack of imagination.


    jonsills wrote: »
    (...)
    In Trek, however, there's a history of AI going bad, from the M5 system to Lore; the underlying concept seems to be a mix of what Asimov called "Frankenstein Syndrome" and the idea that trying to program an entire consciousness all at once is bound to fail. The one success they could point to, Data, was in fact given a sort of ethical structure for future learning to build within, then started off as a sort of very intelligent child. He learned from the people who rescued him, a process which David Brin has proposed may be the only way to create true AI - don't try to program them with a sense of morality, teach it to them.(...)

    The reason why AI tends to go "bad" in Trek is that in the 60s automation was on the rise and the concept of 'robots' putting people out of business and replacing them was a common fear. Roddenberry had a very technosceptical tone in both TOS and also early TNG. This is why the ships are also crewed by so many people, because he wanted that people have to work the machines and they do so out of passion.​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    For example, Data's existence as a true lifeform was never established under Federation law, the courts ducked out of making that determination out of fear for how immense and long lasting the consequences would be.
    He was considerd a lifeform he was granted the rights of other lifeforms, the doctor was not in voyager however.

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  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    Also, I don't know if the Doctor actually started out as a full AI. I got the impression that a base EMH was not entirely sapient, but there's a lot of Voyager that I haven't seen so I could be wrong.

    For my part, the Aurora-A does have an experimental onboard AI. She was given academy training prior to being placed on the ship and does hold a Starfleet commission (Ensign, I think, or maybe Lieutenant JG. She's new.). She's not entirely bound to the Aurora either, she can move to different computer systems if she needs to, such as if the Aurora is about to be destroyed.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    The Doctor was intended as a sub-sapient expert system. Its program was kept running for several years, however, and apparently AI is an emergent property of Starfleet bioneural computer systems.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    Also, I don't know if the Doctor actually started out as a full AI. I got the impression that a base EMH was not entirely sapient, but there's a lot of Voyager that I haven't seen so I could be wrong.

    The EMH was designed for one purpose, to heal the sick and its capacity was limited to a set runtime before cascade overloads were likely to happen, software death in other words. The EMH MK1's suffered from Zimmerman's insufferable personality traits and were often referred by Zimmerman himself as "Extremely Marginal House-calls", they were eventually phased out for the EMH MK2's.

    The Doctor on Voyager was spared the life of servitude on dilithium mines on asteroids and planets because it was stuck on Voyager and the same with the Equinox EMH, unlike the latter, the former was encouraged to develop into a personality after a while because there was no good doctor around and it was just better to acknowledge the Hologram anyway, of course the EMH on Voyager far exceeded its alotted runtime and was on the verge of complete software death if it wasn't for Zimmerman's holographic diagnostic counterpart on the holodeck and some creative mechanics from Torres to extend the EMH's hardware and software needs.

    Over time the doctor had learned and experienced a lot on and off duty, even choosing what it can do for itself without instruction, it was on its way to becoming a full AI, but i suspect it still had limitations, like it can't self upgrade, changing the base code, evolving and adapting all the time. The doctor likely only ever experiences part of this because if it were able to change itself at will and looking back on that personality improvement programme and seeing how much of a disaster that turned into, imagine what it could do without real guidance.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    Or there is already an AI secretly controlling the Federation and they don't want the competition. So instead of having a sapient ship, we have 23rd and 24th Century Siri.

    A way for AI to work is neural implants as a form of symbiosis between human and computer. Humans bring intuition and creativity while AIs bring processing power. Otherwise, there will always be the fear that AIs will replace humans so humans will either cause humanity's destruction through their carelessness in the search for a better entertainment system or humans will hinder AI development out of fear of the machine uprising.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    A way for AI to work is neural implants as a form of symbiosis between human and computer. Humans bring intuition and creativity while AIs bring processing power.
    That's not artificial intelligence - that's a cyborg.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    A way for AI to work is neural implants as a form of symbiosis between human and computer. Humans bring intuition and creativity while AIs bring processing power.
    That's not artificial intelligence - that's a cyborg.
    Tell that to Masterchief and Cortana. (drum riff).
    Cortana's removable though. She regularly relocates to his ship... of course he eventually regretted that detail.... Hello AI galactic overlady!
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    SPARTAN-series super-soldiers are cyborgs. That's why they're stronger and faster than humans, and weigh half a ton each. They also interface with their armor for greater combat capabilities.

    Cortana was a ship's AI, perfectly capable of operating at full intelligence without any human interface at all (as shown during the four years she watched over John's hibernating form between the third and fourth games), that was downloaded to an interface device when Cole Protocol was enacted aboard her ship, Pillar of Autumn. The captain fully intended for all parties to be rescued; neither he nor the Covenant had any way of knowing the Flood existed and were imprisoned aboard the Halo. After that, Cortana was permitted to remain with the Chief, as a reward for her loyal service after her ship was destroyed. (Had she required an interface with a human to operate as a sapient entity, she might not have gone rampant after seven years, then stumbled into the Progenitor's ancient network and become convinced that it cured her utterly.)
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  • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    For example, Data's existence as a true lifeform was never established under Federation law, the courts ducked out of making that determination out of fear for how immense and long lasting the consequences would be.
    He was considerd a lifeform he was granted the rights of other lifeforms, the doctor was not in voyager however.

    But was Data truly granted those rights? We see in "The Measure of a Man" that this status was very much in question. The court avoided any declaration of Data being a real person and instead ruled that he wasn't Starfleet's property. We also see in "The Offspring" that Starfleet still largely viewed Data and Lal as their property. Data's friends on the Enterprise might have treated him as an equal, but that wasn't the case with most strangers or the Starfleet admiralty.

    The Doctor had it even worse, since unlike Data, Starfleet actually did create him and therefore they could claim him as their property, with him also effectively being tethered to USS Voyager's computer systems.
  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    Come to think of it, I think the way Star Trek handles AI all boils down to one fact: Star Trek is made by activist writers, not speculative fiction writers. Topics such as AI rights are viewed as an opportunity for allegory rather than fertile ground for worldbuilding.

    This online novel is an interesting exploration of shipboard AI. It's about a human warship who, after aliens all but eradicate humanity for refusing to join their federation (as a subject race, of course), spends the next few thousand years exacting revenge.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    In the episode where The Doctor met the EMH MK II (Message in a Bottle IIRC) he stated that he had made additions to his programming, specifically the ability to have sex. There are other examples but the Doctor, like Data, did attain full control over his programming.

    But it couldn't possibly had any control of that until about mid way through the first year when it was given some limited control over its own functions and treated with greater respect, which probably extended to more than just switching itself on and off at will. Largely thanks to Kes for bringing the Doctor to the crew, Janeway for acknowledging and Torres for getting things in place.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    > Or there is already an AI secretly controlling the Federation and they don't want the competition. So instead of having a sapient ship, we have 23rd and 24th Century Siri.
    >
    > A way for AI to work is neural implants as a form of symbiosis between human and computer. Humans bring intuition and creativity while AIs bring processing power. Otherwise, there will always be the fear that AIs will replace humans so humans will either cause humanity's destruction through their carelessness in the search for a better entertainment system or humans will hinder AI development out of fear of the machine uprising.

    I like M.D. Cooper's Aeon 14 series for this. It uses a "weak AI"/"strong AI" dichotomy (it's a little blurry, but basically works). Sapient AI (SAI) are actually considered significantly less dangerous than non-sapient AI (NSAI): they tend to actually LIKE humans and are regularly installed in people's heads, with most developing very close friendships with them. There's one case I'm aware of where a head!AI loses it, but it's because he and his human disagreed over the legality of their orders from their military superior.

    They also regularly put AI cores in ships. One such AI, Sabrina, gets emancipated during the series (in the sense that she's given legal ownership of her "body").
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
    EDI in Mass Effect 2 and 3, unshackled but one of the most fascinating. I like her sense of humour
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      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
      "The City On the Edge of Forever" wound up being second-draft-written largely by Gene L. Coon and Dorothy Fontana - Ellison's original script, while brilliant, did not fit the characters, nor was it filmable for 1960s TV. (Both versions won Hugo awards, though.) Better TOS examples might be Theodore Sturgeon's "Amok Time" and "Shore Leave", Frederic Brown's "Arena" (an adaptation of an old story of his), or Norman Spinrad's "The Doomsday Machine". (I don't count David Gerrold because "The Trouble With Tribbles" was his first publication - The Flying Sorceror, a collaboration with Larry Niven, wouldn't be published until 1971.)

      Sadly, I didn't pay much attention to who wrote what during the later series (you have to remember, between '69 and '79 picking over old episodes was really all we had aside from the short-lived cartoon), and when I try to search for SF authors who've written for Star Trek, about 95% of what I get are obituaries for Harlan Ellison (as if "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream", "Basilisk", "On the Downhill Side", and "The Deathbird" were just trivial scribbles he threw around after become famous for writing a TV episode!). I am, however, hopeful that we'll get episodes written by SF pros yet (I think John Scalzi or N. K. Jemisin probably have a few ideas rattling around... :smile:).
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    • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
      azrael605 wrote: »
      > @jonsills said:
      > SPARTAN-series super-soldiers are cyborgs. That's why they're stronger and faster than humans, and weigh half a ton each. They also interface with their armor for greater combat capabilities.
      >
      > Cortana was a ship's AI, perfectly capable of operating at full intelligence without any human interface at all (as shown during the four years she watched over John's hibernating form between the third and fourth games), that was downloaded to an interface device when Cole Protocol was enacted aboard her ship, Pillar of Autumn. The captain fully intended for all parties to be rescued; neither he nor the Covenant had any way of knowing the Flood existed and were imprisoned aboard the Halo. After that, Cortana was permitted to remain with the Chief, as a reward for her loyal service after her ship was destroyed. (Had she required an interface with a human to operate as a sapient entity, she might not have gone rampant after seven years, then stumbled into the Progenitor's ancient network and become convinced that it cured her utterly.)

      Seriously? Thats what happened with Cortana? Sounds like something out of Red vs Blue.
      Check his out:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLXkjpMU98Q&t=561s
      the Cortana part starts at 9:23
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