Fixes listed in tomorrow's patch notes for various hair/skin shader issues, no specifics so we'll have to see what exactly this entails (roll back or straight fixes.)
Yeaaa it seems your "answer" of "that they were considering reverting and reworking the update for later release. Doesn't quite exactly mean "going to do a revert" now does it?
Yeah, my Fleet Leader is correct...anything they say on Twitter, never amounts to much. Just have to wait and see what they came up with.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Fixes listed in tomorrow's patch notes for various hair/skin shader issues, no specifics so we'll have to see what exactly this entails (roll back or straight fixes.)
Yeaaa it seems your "answer" of "that they were considering reverting and reworking the update for later release. Doesn't quite exactly mean "going to do a revert" now does it?
Stop slamming duncanidaho! So he might be wrong, people make mistakes. Let it go! Please calm down and carry on. Glad it was done sooner than he expected. Thanks.
Fixes listed in tomorrow's patch notes for various hair/skin shader issues, no specifics so we'll have to see what exactly this entails (roll back or straight fixes.)
Yeaaa it seems your "answer" of "that they were considering reverting and reworking the update for later release. Doesn't quite exactly mean "going to do a revert" now does it?
It does when you look in the tailor and see that the devs have, in fact, reverted the changes (or at least those with a visual impact, there's no telling what's going on under the hood ATM.) Type 01 male skin texture still has some updates that brought it pretty close to type 06 (separate from the shaders, seems like they gave a little more definition to the base skin texture using 06) but everything else has been shifted back to what it was prior.
PS. you may want to tune into Ten Forward weekly for further updates, generally the most direct way to have a conversation with Kael and the devs.
Update: correction, there's a new issue with hair reflections (or an odd manifestation of a residual update to hair reflections with what they reverted to) but for the most part things are back to how they were. Bug post should be easy for Cryptic to identify.
Fixes listed in tomorrow's patch notes for various hair/skin shader issues, no specifics so we'll have to see what exactly this entails (roll back or straight fixes.)
Yeaaa it seems your "answer" of "that they were considering reverting and reworking the update for later release. Doesn't quite exactly mean "going to do a revert" now does it?
Yeah, my Fleet Leader is correct...anything they say on Twitter, never amounts to much. Just have to wait and see what they came up with.
In this case Kael said that they were considering the roll back we now see in game, considering being the logical process of evaluating whether fixes to issues could be implemented to the shaders in the near term. That's something they needed to work out. Read the end-point of that technical discussion being: "no" and the future of the update being "we'll try to come at it again in future when/if the issues can be sorted out" (as laid out by Kael last week.)
Fixes listed in tomorrow's patch notes for various hair/skin shader issues, no specifics so we'll have to see what exactly this entails (roll back or straight fixes.)
Yeaaa it seems your "answer" of "that they were considering reverting and reworking the update for later release. Doesn't quite exactly mean "going to do a revert" now does it?
Stop slamming duncanidaho! So he might be wrong, people make mistakes. Let it go! Please calm down and carry on. Glad it was done sooner than he expected. Thanks.
Actually per taking the patch note scientifically (ie. evaluating the evidence per the stated hypothesis that fixes were coming) straight fixes wouldn't have contradicted anything I've been saying. Ie. that the devs were CONSIDERING a roll back if fixes weren't possible. I didn't make a prediction about which of those two outcomes would, in fact happen. If nothing had happened this week, that wouldn't have refuted either possibility because a timetable on fixes hadn't been given either and needing another week to work through stuff isn't especially uncommon for STO bugs.
What would have contradicted me is if nothing had in fact happened over the long term, which given the dev's track record on tailor issues like this (see. the missing parts after AOD) wasn't terribly likely and exceptional circumstances in the nature of the bug or nature of the studio as it exists now (ie. a greater burden of proof) would have been required to explain that possibility in the context of speculative discussion.
And this is just to illustrate to Laetexbuns of what you can accomplish if you approach a discussion using evidence based reasoning and a more objective approach to discussion, ie. an accurate description of likely events leading to outcomes in line with expectations (excepting for the unexpected, as in new bugs.) Being proven wrong is by no means a bad thing (see. refutation in scientific experimentation), provided you learn from the experience and adjust your thinking accordingly.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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When the updated hair was just released the black hair... Like, real black.. Turned into a pitch black texture, it just look like a blank black texture, it looked HORRIBLE and it ruined the look of my character.. I had to give her grey hair to get it to kinda look black.
Now with the patch 31 JAN 2019, the "update" to the updated hair.. I am quite happy to say I was able to put my old color code back, I now have my black hair just with improved shaders and it looks great.
So than you for actually making my black hair better, instead of the first time where it just got ruined.
Oh wow, seeing that now. Can confirm those effects across all comparable hairstyles. It doesn't look so bad with my settings (from the front I can't notice on the styles I'm running) but there's others which are pretty atrocious (pony tail 05 and hair bun 01 are stand out examples.) There's a lot that's been reverted but clearly they didn't get everything (ie. hair reflections.) As a note: turning down hair reflections to minimum also minimizes the issue, so use that as a stopgap in the meantime while we wait for a fix to this fix.
Serious talk for Cryptic: I am having to ask myself what's been going on with respect to development and QA. These are big issues and I could add onto them the unprecedented scale of layered problems that took the Foundry down after AOD. It does hurt enthusiasm if working our way back to the old normal seems like such an arduous and rocky journey. I know you guys will look into this but...these are hits we're taking.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
Not sure why though, but I suspect it might have something to do with the graphical settings the game applies to textures with the "Enhance graphics in tailor" or words to that effect option in the settings, I guess something with that is broken.
But other than the hair looking horrible in the tailor, I'm happy to say my old favourite color of black is back with improved shaders, so I'm really happy with this update. It just looks messed up in the tailor, but for me it's totally fine outside of the tailor on the highest graphical settings.
I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
It's the hair reflections as opposed to the underlying texture so local lighting will make the issues more or less apparent. Turning down the hair reflection slider can also help mitigate in the short term.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
It's the hair reflections as opposed to the underlying texture so local lighting will make the issues more or less apparent. Turning down the hair reflection slider can also help mitigate in the short term.
I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
It's the hair reflections as opposed to the underlying texture so local lighting will make the issues more or less apparent. Turning down the hair reflection slider can also help mitigate in the short term.
Unfortunately, that slider is broken for me.
Broke as in non-functional across the board? Just checking in the specifics here, the more detail the devs have the better when it comes to fixing bugs.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
It's the hair reflections as opposed to the underlying texture so local lighting will make the issues more or less apparent. Turning down the hair reflection slider can also help mitigate in the short term.
Unfortunately, that slider is broken for me.
Broke as in non-functional across the board? Just checking in the specifics here, the more detail the devs have the better when it comes to fixing bugs.
There was no difference across the board from sliding them left to right. But now it works again when I re-tested it just now. Soooo, false alarm after all, I suppose.
There was no difference across the board from sliding them left to right. But now it works again when I re-tested it just now. Soooo, false alarm after all, I suppose.
No worries, reflections went away with the update. That came back in today's revert. Could be that they didn't revert the hair reflections to the correct setting or left fragment of the update in place. Either way, yeah folks should minimize that slider to reduce the issues for the time being.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Yeah, I just noticed that too.. On some maps it looks horrible, it's super reflective even with the slider set at 0... Well, the slider does nothing.. But it's set at 0, but someplaces the hair is super reflective, it almost looks more like... Water, lol.
Imagine the water texture just not in motion? And in a different color.. Black or blonde for example.
PS. you may want to tune into Ten Forward weekly for further updates, generally the most direct way to have a conversation with Kael and the devs.
Is Ten Forward Weekly Kael's "TV show"? Can I say how much I dislike that form of communication. I prefer written communication in threads focused on specific issues, because (1) text is searchable and (2) I can don't have to spend half an hour listening to topics I'm not interested in. If Kael has an update about the hair and skin changes, why can't he post it here?
I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
As others have shown with their screenshots, it does look that way outside the tailor. I noticed right away at Starfleet Academy. As DuncanIdaho said, it may depend on the lighting of the map.
There was no difference across the board from sliding them left to right. But now it works again when I re-tested it just now. Soooo, false alarm after all, I suppose.
Yeah, I just noticed that too.. On some maps it looks horrible, it's super reflective even with the slider set at 0... Well, the slider does nothing.. But it's set at 0, but someplaces the hair is super reflective, it almost looks more like... Water, lol.
The "Shininess" slider in the tailor does work for me; it didn't work last week, but it works now. Of course, whether setting the slider to zero gets rid of the issue is another matter.
It's the hair reflections as opposed to the underlying texture so local lighting will make the issues more or less apparent. Turning down the hair reflection slider can also help mitigate in the short term.
No worries, reflections went away with the update. That came back in today's revert. Could be that they didn't revert the hair reflections to the correct setting or left fragment of the update in place. Either way, yeah folks should minimize that slider to reduce the issues for the time being.
I'm not sure "reflections" is the right word for what we're seeing. It's not affected by the "Reflection quality" drop-down in the "Graphics" tab. And turning Lighting 2.0 on or off doesn't get rid of it either. On the other hand, the "Shininess" slider in the tailor does affect it. I think it's some kind of specular highlight. What we're seeing now may be the "fresnel" effect they were talking about. Maybe, it wasn't actually working last week, but it is now.
While I was updating all the old hair shaders in STO I spent a little extra time to make the hair look better. I added anisotropic specular and made the hair color affect the specular color. I also adjusted how the fresnel and light bleed affected the hair color. This should make the hair look softer and more natural. After I finished the hair I updated the skin shader to make the characters look more alive. For this, I just added a bit of inverted fresnel to fake some subsurface scatter.
The other change they made this week was to the skin. I think they removed the "inverted fresnel" effect; the reddish hue to the skin appears to be gone. On the other hand, the weird lighting in the contact window is still there.
Yeah, Per MR, this is a known issue on the team, but we need to do some further investigation to figure out how best to resolve it, and right now it's low priority.
Essentially, the tailor moves your camera to some far off specific coordinates, that we're pretty sure won't ever be inside a playable area on a map. However, it retains the major lighting from whereever your player is standing. Basically, ESD got lucky, and the lighting is pointing the right way, and most other places didn't fare so well.
Apologies, and I will push to get some time to investigate more. For now, do your tailoring at ESD.
EDIT: After checking that thread again, I'm not sure if he's talking about the ship tailor only, or the character tailor as well.
Yup, this update is horrible. It's really a punch in the stomach to Star Trek Online players.
It constantly makes me furious to have a test server with players that is never used, and developers that rarely listen to plays like in these cases.
You keep making changes no one asked for, they turn out horrible... We complain, nothing is done. Or you try to fix it, promise to make it better.. Only to make it even WORSE or do nothing about it.
Last week: https://imgur.com/lEVoiQj.jpg Hair is different. Looks worse for some hair/color/lighting combinations, better for others. Mismatch between hair and eyebrow/beard colors. Skin softened and shifted towards pink (which looked fine on light skinned humans, and bad for everyone else). Many costumes lost their shaders and became matte when they were supposed to be metallic.
To be honest I hope they don’t remove the update, I have a low end computer and I can now turn down the graphics settings and have it look good and not the unplayable mess before while still running at fast speeds.
If it’s not looking right for you I suggest turning down some graphics settings as there is really no longer a need to have the maximum and if it is a problem turning down the settings might actually make it look better.
To be honest I hope they don’t remove the update, I have a low end computer and I can now turn down the graphics settings and have it look good and not the unplayable mess before while still running at fast speeds.
If it’s not looking right for you I suggest turning down some graphics settings as there is really no longer a need to have the maximum and if it is a problem turning down the settings might actually make it look better.
Well, here is what I think: making the picture pretty on your "low end computer", shouldn't be messing up the picture on my "low end computer".
AND it definitely should NOT be messing up the picture on other players using higher end graphics.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Somebody break out the Head & Shoulders for my toon's hair and she'll probably need a trip to a tanning booth. This is horrible! Please roll it back before the changes.
~Shia~
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
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Comments
Yeah, my Fleet Leader is correct...anything they say on Twitter, never amounts to much. Just have to wait and see what they came up with.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Stop slamming duncanidaho! So he might be wrong, people make mistakes. Let it go! Please calm down and carry on. Glad it was done sooner than he expected. Thanks.
It does when you look in the tailor and see that the devs have, in fact, reverted the changes (or at least those with a visual impact, there's no telling what's going on under the hood ATM.) Type 01 male skin texture still has some updates that brought it pretty close to type 06 (separate from the shaders, seems like they gave a little more definition to the base skin texture using 06) but everything else has been shifted back to what it was prior.
PS. you may want to tune into Ten Forward weekly for further updates, generally the most direct way to have a conversation with Kael and the devs.
Update: correction, there's a new issue with hair reflections (or an odd manifestation of a residual update to hair reflections with what they reverted to) but for the most part things are back to how they were. Bug post should be easy for Cryptic to identify.
In this case Kael said that they were considering the roll back we now see in game, considering being the logical process of evaluating whether fixes to issues could be implemented to the shaders in the near term. That's something they needed to work out. Read the end-point of that technical discussion being: "no" and the future of the update being "we'll try to come at it again in future when/if the issues can be sorted out" (as laid out by Kael last week.)
Actually per taking the patch note scientifically (ie. evaluating the evidence per the stated hypothesis that fixes were coming) straight fixes wouldn't have contradicted anything I've been saying. Ie. that the devs were CONSIDERING a roll back if fixes weren't possible. I didn't make a prediction about which of those two outcomes would, in fact happen. If nothing had happened this week, that wouldn't have refuted either possibility because a timetable on fixes hadn't been given either and needing another week to work through stuff isn't especially uncommon for STO bugs.
What would have contradicted me is if nothing had in fact happened over the long term, which given the dev's track record on tailor issues like this (see. the missing parts after AOD) wasn't terribly likely and exceptional circumstances in the nature of the bug or nature of the studio as it exists now (ie. a greater burden of proof) would have been required to explain that possibility in the context of speculative discussion.
And this is just to illustrate to Laetexbuns of what you can accomplish if you approach a discussion using evidence based reasoning and a more objective approach to discussion, ie. an accurate description of likely events leading to outcomes in line with expectations (excepting for the unexpected, as in new bugs.) Being proven wrong is by no means a bad thing (see. refutation in scientific experimentation), provided you learn from the experience and adjust your thinking accordingly.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Now with the patch 31 JAN 2019, the "update" to the updated hair.. I am quite happy to say I was able to put my old color code back, I now have my black hair just with improved shaders and it looks great.
So than you for actually making my black hair better, instead of the first time where it just got ruined.
It's all great now! For me at least..
JESUS FROLICKING CHRIST
REVERT
TODAY
Oh wow, seeing that now. Can confirm those effects across all comparable hairstyles. It doesn't look so bad with my settings (from the front I can't notice on the styles I'm running) but there's others which are pretty atrocious (pony tail 05 and hair bun 01 are stand out examples.) There's a lot that's been reverted but clearly they didn't get everything (ie. hair reflections.) As a note: turning down hair reflections to minimum also minimizes the issue, so use that as a stopgap in the meantime while we wait for a fix to this fix.
Serious talk for Cryptic: I am having to ask myself what's been going on with respect to development and QA. These are big issues and I could add onto them the unprecedented scale of layered problems that took the Foundry down after AOD. It does hurt enthusiasm if working our way back to the old normal seems like such an arduous and rocky journey. I know you guys will look into this but...these are hits we're taking.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I reacted to that also, I play on the highest graphical settings and the hair texture only looks this way in the tailor. On normal maps even zoomed all the way in, it does not look this bad.
Not sure why though, but I suspect it might have something to do with the graphical settings the game applies to textures with the "Enhance graphics in tailor" or words to that effect option in the settings, I guess something with that is broken.
But other than the hair looking horrible in the tailor, I'm happy to say my old favourite color of black is back with improved shaders, so I'm really happy with this update. It just looks messed up in the tailor, but for me it's totally fine outside of the tailor on the highest graphical settings.
It's the hair reflections as opposed to the underlying texture so local lighting will make the issues more or less apparent. Turning down the hair reflection slider can also help mitigate in the short term.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Unfortunately, that slider is broken for me.
Broke as in non-functional across the board? Just checking in the specifics here, the more detail the devs have the better when it comes to fixing bugs.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
There was no difference across the board from sliding them left to right. But now it works again when I re-tested it just now. Soooo, false alarm after all, I suppose.
I'm done. I'll check back next week and see if my characters still look awful.
No worries, reflections went away with the update. That came back in today's revert. Could be that they didn't revert the hair reflections to the correct setting or left fragment of the update in place. Either way, yeah folks should minimize that slider to reduce the issues for the time being.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Imagine the water texture just not in motion? And in a different color.. Black or blonde for example.
Default Lighting in the tailor
So you can see where the hair color are slider are set. The slider is at 0 here.
So.. yeah. This still needs some work.
Is Ten Forward Weekly Kael's "TV show"? Can I say how much I dislike that form of communication. I prefer written communication in threads focused on specific issues, because (1) text is searchable and (2) I can don't have to spend half an hour listening to topics I'm not interested in. If Kael has an update about the hair and skin changes, why can't he post it here?
As others have shown with their screenshots, it does look that way outside the tailor. I noticed right away at Starfleet Academy. As DuncanIdaho said, it may depend on the lighting of the map.
The "Shininess" slider in the tailor does work for me; it didn't work last week, but it works now. Of course, whether setting the slider to zero gets rid of the issue is another matter.
I'm not sure "reflections" is the right word for what we're seeing. It's not affected by the "Reflection quality" drop-down in the "Graphics" tab. And turning Lighting 2.0 on or off doesn't get rid of it either. On the other hand, the "Shininess" slider in the tailor does affect it. I think it's some kind of specular highlight. What we're seeing now may be the "fresnel" effect they were talking about. Maybe, it wasn't actually working last week, but it is now.
Updates to Hair and Skin Textures
The other change they made this week was to the skin. I think they removed the "inverted fresnel" effect; the reddish hue to the skin appears to be gone. On the other hand, the weird lighting in the contact window is still there.
Holodeck ticket 4,809,832: NPCs appear too bright in contact window after the patch on January 10, 2019
Vanilla, don't eat my post.
https://old.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/9zq56l/lighting_in_the_ship_tailor_needs_to_be_moved/eaew73j/
EDIT: After checking that thread again, I'm not sure if he's talking about the ship tailor only, or the character tailor as well.
I need to correct myself, it seems i can change the skin textures
before changes
It constantly makes me furious to have a test server with players that is never used, and developers that rarely listen to plays like in these cases.
You keep making changes no one asked for, they turn out horrible... We complain, nothing is done. Or you try to fix it, promise to make it better.. Only to make it even WORSE or do nothing about it.
Last week: https://imgur.com/lEVoiQj.jpg Hair is different. Looks worse for some hair/color/lighting combinations, better for others. Mismatch between hair and eyebrow/beard colors. Skin softened and shifted towards pink (which looked fine on light skinned humans, and bad for everyone else). Many costumes lost their shaders and became matte when they were supposed to be metallic.
Today: https://imgur.com/iu3qQOt.jpg Hair is UTTERLY FORKED. Costumes and skin appear to be back to normal.
Okaaayyyy! Now I can see why people are calling it "dandruff".
While for a couple of my characters with ponytails, especially, it looks caked with mud.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
If it’s not looking right for you I suggest turning down some graphics settings as there is really no longer a need to have the maximum and if it is a problem turning down the settings might actually make it look better.
Well, here is what I think: making the picture pretty on your "low end computer", shouldn't be messing up the picture on my "low end computer".
AND it definitely should NOT be messing up the picture on other players using higher end graphics.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
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