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>2 million DPS - > 300K sustained - EPG madness!

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  • tomebe11tomebe11 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    If you watch the video you will see that three of the team didn't get anywhere as high in numbers than the other two, that was not because they were support in a nanny run but because they arrived into the map up to 10 seconds later due to their computer/internet speeds etc and the map warps you directly into combat so there is no opportunity to wait for them.
    This sounds an awful lot like a loot farm. Warp in and immediately start killing bad guys that conveniently spawn right into your kill zone.

    I have noticed a peculiar thing with loot farms in that they can break parsers. Once I accidentally parsed a loot farm because I had left combatlog 1 running, and it recorded almost 10x more team DPS than individual DPS, despite being the only player on the map and therefore not having a team.
    It also demonstrates that rolling a science captain is almost pointless, a tactical captain can easily achieve higher numbers than a science captain given identical builds, and except for specific purposes like sci pvp there is absolutely no point in rolling a sci toon, if we could change careers in the game I would change this toon to tactical in a heartbeat and reap the joys of APA and TI.
    I think STO's class balance have been a thing for a very long time now, and is part of why I have advocated that captain "classes" be abolished in space.

    The difference between a loot farm and SRS missions is simple. Loot farms have no story, SRS missions do. The mission name was in the video so why don't you actually play the mission and then form an opinion before running your mouth off at something you clearly don't understand.

    The reign of TAC EPG is at a all time high and with large AoE potential, maps with a lot of NPC's are assured to give high levels of DPS beyond the norm.
  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User

    There is nothing wrong with that at all. You and your friends are having fun in game and you commemorate it. Players have done this since video games came into be.

    It is only in this very place, the STO forums, where you have to justify for doing that. The reason why is actually very sad: Most of the players around here simply have nothing to commemorate. ;)

    There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not 2 million DPS. :P
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  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    pfft2 wrote: »

    There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not 2 million DPS. :P

    Yes that's right, it's approaching 2.7 million DPS, the figure is quoted as a team measurement, if you want the individual peaks of 1.1 and 1.3 million they are quite clearly visible in the video on the magnified real time parse readout.

    When you bill your video as "this is what 2 million DPS looks like*," and then in your original post mention that Exotic is overpowered, the natural inference is that your build did 2 million DPS. Any sensible definition of the term DPS doesn't refer to spikes; we use the term "spike" for those. DPS is average damage over time, after all.

    Not trying to pile on here, man; if you're having fun taking videos with exotic hijinks, more power to you. It's just not a particularly well labeled video.

    (* - Worth noting, too, that you don't even mention the lower, "sustained" number on the youtube page for your video.)
  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    tomebe11 wrote: »

    The reign of TAC EPG is at a all time high and with large AoE potential, maps with a lot of NPC's are assured to give high levels of DPS beyond the norm.

    The "reign of Tac EPG" is that it's blown away in the general case by Tac cannon builds. Don't get me wrong; I love me some EPG. Exotic boats can achieve high levels of performance at much lower cost than energy builds, which is why I have six EPG builds on my alts.

    But just about the only place that EPG wins is in CCA. And that's a lot of fun, but let's not get carried away with the balance implications of a video taken on a Foundry map.
    Post edited by pfft2 on
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  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2018
  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    pfft2 wrote: »

    When you bill your video as "this is what 2 million DPS looks like*," and then in your original post mention that Exotic is overpowered, the natural inference is that your build did 2 million DPS. Any sensible definition of the term DPS doesn't refer to spikes; we use the term "spike" for those. DPS is average damage over time, after all.

    Not trying to pile on here, man; if you're having fun taking videos with exotic hijinks, more power to you. It's just not a particularly well labeled video.

    (* - Worth noting, too, that you don't even mention the lower, "sustained" number on the youtube page for your video.)

    The video states "this is what >2 million DPS looks like", nowhere does it state that "this is what >2 million DPS looks like from a single player". Don't criticise a statement based on your incorrect assessment of the statement.

    The video also shows the build for the Annorax which lists a spike damage of >1 million DPS spike and >200K DPS sustained, if it's not on the YouTube description then that was just missed off, it's on the web site, it's in the video, if that's not enough for you then you clearly haven't watched it either, jeez!

    The definition of DPS is damage per second, there is no precise or arbitrary designation for the start and end point of that measurement. Therefore a spike can be anything from a fraction of a second to many seconds, the very term "spike" is self-explanatory in that it is NOT a sustained damage readout but a short and instantaneous SPIKE of damage. The damage of the spike is measure in DPS, regardles of the duration of S. It is also known as an alpha strike and is measure in the exact same way.
    The Spike damage of this team is greater than 2 million DPS and the sustained is greater than 300K which is exactly what the title states, just because your own personal interpretation of the title is different to the facts does not make it right.

    You know, I really regret posting this video, in the future I will abstain from commenting or posting on this forum, the negativity from the population here is most depressing, it is full of critics, trolls, naysayers and doom mongers. Contributing to this forum should carry a health warning. This is my last post to the STO forums other than the recruiting thread we run, I really don't have the energy to argue with idiots any longer.

    C'mon, this is sophistry. Sure, you can take your damage over, say, 2 seconds or 5 seconds or 10 seconds, and that's a valid way to measure spikes, but when people refer to DPS, they're talking about sustained damage. This shouldn't be controversial.

    It's not a big deal. You're just misusing the term. At first I thought you were genuinely confused about it, but now it seems clear that your video's title is misleading clickbait. And you know it, which is why you're so defensive.

    Oh, and your team did not do 2 million DPS. They may have spiked that high, but the parse in your video shows 310k + 285k + 93k + 79k + 48k = 815k team DPS. That's certainly a nice number, but it's a far cry from your initial claim - and it comes from a map that no one's ever heard of. I'm sure this all sounds like malicious nitpicking, but the point here really isn't to criticize you, Matt. The point is simply to clarify, for people who may not know any better.

    There's a reason that we use a handful of Cryptic-made queues to measure DPS; those maps provide us with a (more or less) consistent basis to compare builds. When random people see you make claims like the ones in the video, they can get misled about what a given build is capable of. There are only a couple of players in the entire game who are capable of consistently putting out 200+k DPS in an Exotic boat on a non-CCA map, and those performances require the support of extremely high-end teams. And when I say "extremely high-end teams," I'm talking teams comprised of top-20 or so players.

    Meanwhile, cannon builds doing 200+k DPS are still very rare, of course, but not nearly as rare, and in any case, I can do 200+k DPS consistently in PUGs; the score isn't team-dependent.

    All of this is to say simply that Exotic builds aren't overpowered, or at least not overpowered relative to the competition at the moment. To the extent I care at all about this topic, that's where I care. Your foundry video's nice; if you had fun doing it, then more power to you - but it doesn't say anything about the relative strength of EPG builds generally.
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  • slifox#0768 slifox Member Posts: 379 Arc User
    Thanks for the video. I found it enjoyable and helpful.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    pfft2 wrote: »

    C'mon, this is sophistry. Sure, you can take your damage over, say, 2 seconds or 5 seconds or 10 seconds, and that's a valid way to measure spikes, but when people refer to DPS, they're talking about sustained damage. This shouldn't be controversial.

    It's not a big deal. You're just misusing the term. At first I thought you were genuinely confused about it, but now it seems clear that your video's title is misleading clickbait. And you know it, which is why you're so defensive.

    Oh, and your team did not do 2 million DPS. They may have spiked that high, but the parse in your video shows 310k + 285k + 93k + 79k + 48k = 815k team DPS. That's certainly a nice number, but it's a far cry from your initial claim - and it comes from a map that no one's ever heard of. I'm sure this all sounds like malicious nitpicking, but the point here really isn't to criticize you, Matt. The point is simply to clarify, for people who may not know any better.

    There's a reason that we use a handful of Cryptic-made queues to measure DPS; those maps provide us with a (more or less) consistent basis to compare builds. When random people see you make claims like the ones in the video, they can get misled about what a given build is capable of. There are only a couple of players in the entire game who are capable of consistently putting out 200+k DPS in an Exotic boat on a non-CCA map, and those performances require the support of extremely high-end teams. And when I say "extremely high-end teams," I'm talking teams comprised of top-20 or so players.

    Meanwhile, cannon builds doing 200+k DPS are still very rare, of course, but not nearly as rare, and in any case, I can do 200+k DPS consistently in PUGs; the score isn't team-dependent.

    All of this is to say simply that Exotic builds aren't overpowered, or at least not overpowered relative to the competition at the moment. To the extent I care at all about this topic, that's where I care. Your foundry video's nice; if you had fun doing it, then more power to you - but it doesn't say anything about the relative strength of EPG builds generally.

    I absolutely agree that equating spike damage with DPS is not very fair. Sure, you can make a point that it's *technically* true, but again, it can be seen as very misleading. I mean, it's not rare at all when I see ridiculously high spikes at the start of my HSE, but I don't even have a sliver of thought to say to anyone that "hey, at this fraction of second my ship did that 500k DPS".

    You also outline very well the reason why myself (and several others) don't consider numbers done in CCA to have any high value. It's just one map, and it ends so quickly that the numbers gained on there doesn't present any meaningful information about player's overall capabilities. Just like in this video here, done on Foundry map.

    Is it entertaining to see something like that? Certainly. Is it somewhat impressive? Of course. But to do any conclusive remarks about overall sustained DPS, or to claim something is OP based on those results - that's a stretch.
  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    pfft2 wrote: »
    pfft2 wrote: »

    There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not 2 million DPS. :P

    Yes that's right, it's approaching 2.7 million DPS, the figure is quoted as a team measurement, if you want the individual peaks of 1.1 and 1.3 million they are quite clearly visible in the video on the magnified real time parse readout.

    When you bill your video as "this is what 2 million DPS looks like*," and then in your original post mention that Exotic is overpowered, the natural inference is that your build did 2 million DPS. Any sensible definition of the term DPS doesn't refer to spikes; we use the term "spike" for those. DPS is average damage over time, after all.

    Not trying to pile on here, man; if you're having fun taking videos with exotic hijinks, more power to you. It's just not a particularly well labeled video.

    (* - Worth noting, too, that you don't even mention the lower, "sustained" number on the youtube page for your video.)

    The video states "this is what >2 million DPS looks like", nowhere does it state that "this is what >2 million DPS looks like from a single player". Don't criticise a statement based on your incorrect assessment of the statement.

    The video also shows the build for the Annorax which lists a spike damage of >1 million DPS spike and >200K DPS sustained, if it's not on the YouTube description then that was just missed off, it's on the web site, it's in the video, if that's not enough for you then you clearly haven't watched it either, jeez!

    The definition of DPS is damage per second, there is no precise or arbitrary designation for the start and end point of that measurement. Therefore a spike can be anything from a fraction of a second to many seconds, the very term "spike" is self-explanatory in that it is NOT a sustained damage readout but a short and instantaneous SPIKE of damage. The damage of the spike is measure in DPS, regardles of the duration of S. It is also known as an alpha strike and is measure in the exact same way.
    The Spike damage of this team is greater than 2 million DPS and the sustained is greater than 300K which is exactly what the title states, just because your own personal interpretation of the title is different to the facts does not make it right.

    You know, I really regret posting this video, in the future I will abstain from commenting or posting on this forum, the negativity from the population here is most depressing, it is full of critics, trolls, naysayers and doom mongers. Contributing to this forum should carry a health warning. This is my last post to the STO forums other than the recruiting thread we run, I really don't have the energy to argue with idiots any longer.

    I didn't watch the entire video, I also didn't look closely at the ship build. Why ? Because I will never be a high/top DPSer as i'm an extremely casual player.

    I did however, follow this thread as it unfolded and all I can say is WOW ! ! !

    The WOW is not a reaction to the video, or the OP, the WOW is my reaction to some of the replies in here. It seems that some people have nothing better to do than come into the Forums just to rain on someone else's parade. You and your team mates had a blast playing a mission and you thought it would be fun to share a video of it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    You go right ahead and post any other videos that you would like to share, some of us will enjoy them, some will just ignore them due to lack of interest, and a few will take it upon themselves to try and "rain on your parade".

    All you have to do is just ignore the rainers, let them rain all they want, just ignore them, don't even respond to them and they'll go away and even if they don't go away, who cares. If you just ignore them and don't bother responding to their rain, the only people who's fun will get spoiled is theirs.


    LTS and loving it.
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  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    arionisa wrote: »
    [
    The WOW is not a reaction to the video, or the OP, the WOW is my reaction to some of the replies in here. It seems that some people have nothing better to do than come into the Forums just to rain on someone else's parade. You and your team mates had a blast playing a mission and you thought it would be fun to share a video of it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    I understand where you're coming from. If the OP had just posted a fun video then I'd agree with you, but that's not all he did. Let me ask you this: when you're browsing around on Youtube, and you come across a video whose title claims to show you something you're interested in, how do you feel when the video turns out to do nothing of the kind?

    I'll bet you feel like you wasted five or ten minutes of your life. Contra the OP's claims, people who've fallen for clickbait typically don't say to themselves, "Hey, at least he explained at the end that his title isn't true." Or in this case, "Hey, there was no 2 million DPS, but it's all good. He didn't mean 2 million DPS; he meant 2 million team DPS, and whoops, actually he didn't mean that either. He meant 2 million team spike damage. Oh, and by the way, he wasn't using one of the maps that we all refer to when we're measuring these things (ISA, HSE)."

    Basically, his title was misleading three times over. But even that would be ok, except that then he made a game-balance argument based on his team's spike damage on a foundry map that no one uses: he said that his video shows how overpowered EPG builds are.

    Look, it's pretty simple: Cannon Scatter Volley has a target cap of 3, whereas Gravity Well has a target cap of 50, IIRC. So if you can find a map with dozens of mobs in range of your Grav Well, then you can massively inflate an EPG build's performance. "Real" maps (i.e. Cryptic-designed maps) typically don't offer environments like that. Instead, they typically provide spawns of <10 mobs, and so CSV dominates, pretty much everywhere except CCA.

    Even in HSE, which is basically a large borg shooting gallery, half or more of the mobs aren't pullable (cubes), so you get a couple of big spikes when you pull the spheres together, but after that your DPS settles down.

    I am perhaps biased on this subject, because I spend a lot of time helping people with their builds, and occasionally I'll field questions from players who've been misled about what's practically achievable. I can already see people asking around about 300k DPS Exotic builds based on a video like this one. The truth is that outside of CCA, 200+k Exotic DPS is only barely possible, and only for a literal handful of players with the support of an absolutely spectacular team.

    The OP himself doesn't have any uploaded parses over 86k (ISA), for reference. Don't get me wrong; 86k is a good number, and hey, maybe he legitimately got much much better in the ~3 weeks since he uploaded that parse - but let's just say that his advertising a 2 million DPS ~300k EPG build on the basis of a foundry map run probably isn't a fair representation of his build's performance in any context relevant to most players.
    You go right ahead and post any other videos that you would like to share

    I genuinely hope he follows your advice, just without the clickbait-y lede and the spurious balance arguments.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    pfft2 wrote: »
    It's just not 2 million DPS. :P

    I do not care or I would have commented on it. ;)
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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    Why? What are you trying to say with this? Is this a show off thing?

    it's an epeen thing, apparently
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,917 Arc User
    Cool to see you are having fun OP. B)
    echatty wrote: »
    I just thought it was impressive. Something I would probably never attain, but it was fun to watch.

    Nothing to make childish, attacking comments over.

    Matt, I enjoyed it. Congrats.

    It is forum members like you who make logging into this place worthwhile. You are always reasonable, constructive and optimistic. And sure you could attain those numbers if you wanted to. It is a matter of homework (build) practice and finding the right spot in game (map and team you run with). With all of that we could help you with and would love doing that. :)

    Thank you very much, that made me smile and gave me warm fuzzies. It's just that (most of the time) I try to live by the "If you can't say something good, keep your mouth shut." Translated to the written word "If you can't type something constructive, don't type at all."

    And thank you for the kind offer. I'm like most folks around here, an extremely casual player who can probably hold her own in Advanced but plays Normal because she comes onto the game to have fun and get away from RL for a little while.

    You and others have helped me out on occasion when I've gotten stuck with something, and I really appreciate that. Keep up the good work. And Matt, keep up the showing off, it's fun to watch :)
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
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  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    Man, you take this game way too seriously.

    I'm not the one who quit the forum in a snit a few posts ago, claiming that the forum should come with a health warning. I'm also not the one who posted a video with highly inflated numbers and then argued with a straight face that:

    A.) the video proves that a certain type of build is overpowered, and
    B.) anyone who criticizes your video must be jealous of your "success."

    I've been pretty polite to you throughout this thread. Your only reply has been to insult and dismiss. "I'm quitting the forum, tired of arguing with idiots," and now it's the guy who self-admittedly posted a misleading video in part to brag about his DPS accusing me of taking the game too seriously. You don't have a response, so you resort to this.

    We're not supposed to notice that you're incapable of producing those numbers on real maps, I suppose. Sorry for derailing the narrative.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    echatty wrote: »
    It's just that (most of the time) I try to live by the "If you can't say something good, keep your mouth shut."
    I disagree with this point. Critical thinking requires criticism. If you haven't got anything negative to say, you didn't put any thought into saying it, so what you said means nothing. Therefore, what was the point of saying it? Because you love the sound of your own voice?

    Congratulations, this is now the dumbest thing in this thread.

    You are the king of making a great post followed by total nonsensical garbage.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Well I have been surprised how many folks have contacted me today and have asked to keep posting. So I will.

    And for those who thought the previous run wasn't relevant, here's one we all know, done especially for this thread this evening, the Carraya system, elite of course, full team. EPG mayhem!

    Maybe this will surprise you: I think this is a good video, much better than the last one. You don't make any specific claims, and at least thus far you haven't used this video as the basis for a broader argument. It's just fun mayhem, for Esses and giggles. And the video is well made, as was the last one.

    Of course it still doesn't prove what you claimed before, for the mechanical reasons outlined earlier (target caps and the volume of spawns). 5-man patrols aren't exactly sweeping the playerbase, and when you're citing DPS numbers you need to look at like conditions. That's why we all use ISA or HSE; they give us a baseline for comparison. But I genuinely liked this video; you deserve props for it.

  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,914 Community Moderator
    Geezus, people! WTH?! Calm down and get along, please.
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 3,159 Arc User
    Doing fun stuff in space together with friends. That's always been the most rewarding part of STO for me.

    Thanks for including the details of your build in the first video. It's always interesting to have a look under the hood whether it be cars or space ships.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I am not being hostile. LOL!

    I am asking: is this a show off video or is this something for teaching stuff?

    BTW... I am a woman.

    It's a show off video not a tutorial. Not that you can exactly do a tutorial for runs like that easily as it requires the other 4 players to do their part to generate those numbers, It is still fairly impressive to see...and it is good for learning positioning for the map so it isn't worthless to watch if you are only interested in becoming better yourself.

    Yup, one ship can't do everything. If you got 1-4 friends you all spec to do something very well and makes things stupidly easy.

    Personally, I don't see how blowing up everything in 2 seconds is fun in the long run. Sure, seeing what you CAN do is nice, but I'd think the game would be very boring if you can consistently do that everywhere. But then I'm the guy who sticks all 7 Odyssey consoles on my ship for the variety. :D
    Post edited by dracounguis on
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    echatty wrote: »
    It's just that (most of the time) I try to live by the "If you can't say something good, keep your mouth shut."
    I disagree with this point. Critical thinking requires criticism. If you haven't got anything negative to say, you didn't put any thought into saying it, so what you said means nothing. Therefore, what was the point of saying it? Because you love the sound of your own voice?

    Congratulations, this is now the dumbest thing in this thread.

    You are the king of making a great post followed by total nonsensical garbage.

    Lol oh boy yep. :D

    Considering how hard the dumbest thing was fought over for in this thread I guess I throw in congratulation here as well.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    protoneous wrote: »
    Doing fun stuff in space together with friends. That's always been the most rewarding part of STO for me.

    Thanks for including the details of your build in the first video. It's always interesting to have a look under the hood whether it be cars or space ships.

    I very much agree with you.

    It does not really matter if one pulls 10k, 40k, 80k or 160k in ISA or 2 million teamed DPS in a foundry of his choice with EPG. For as long as one is having fun with his friends doing such stuff it is always legit, always successful in a videogame.

    It totally escapes me how others choose the path of bad mouthing it by devaluing it as boasting or nitpicking it away over DPS measurement technicalities. This thread just really misses someone joining in and issuing a general warning that kids should not try this as at home or they could get hurt. :D
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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