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Adding "Fleet Captain" and "Commodore" Titles to Flag Officers

pwemademedothispwemademedothis Member Posts: 72 Arc User
Since our player characters have "Title" selection drop downs, adding the above honorifics so that they may be used wherever the titles may actually get used in game wouldn't suck, and would be a nice nod to TOS tradition and lore (Commodores Decker and Mendez, Fleet Captains Pike and Garth ["...LORD Garth!" someone interjects from off screen...])

What's the harm? :-)

Personally, I think I'm going to color my Odyssey uniform silver captains' pips gold to signify the posting.
«13

Comments

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,530 Arc User
    Would be nice if the titles were actually used anywhere in the game. Alas, regardless of your chosen title, NPC's always address you by your level rank.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,201 Bug Hunter
    Or just replace the non-canonical rank of 'Rear Admiral-Lower Half' with the canonical rank of Commodore and make it a full level ingame.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,093 Arc User
    Except we don't hear about Commodore post TOS. Not even in the TMP era.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,530 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Except we don't hear about Commodore post TOS. Not even in the TMP era.
    Generally, things that exist don't spontaneously cease to exist just because we aren't constantly being reminded of them.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,093 Arc User
    Its possible that sometime before TMP the rank of Commodore was retired, or is only used in an honorary capacity.

    I honestly don't know if its in use in modern times either. I know the rank existed, but does it still exist is the question.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 409 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > Its possible that sometime before TMP the rank of Commodore was retired, or is only used in an honorary capacity.
    >
    > I honestly don't know if its in use in modern times either. I know the rank existed, but does it still exist is the question.

    The USN used it at various times, it was last revived in the 80s, but discontinued a few years later because it caused confusion as Squadron Commanders, usually a O-6 Captain, are called Commodore as a honorific.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,772 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > Except we don't hear about Commodore post TOS. Not even in the TMP era.

    We don't hear but read it in TNG "conspiracy". Besides, why should a rank just cease to exist because for a long time it isn't mentioned? It doesn't make sense.
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • pwemademedothispwemademedothis Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The rank was retired by the U.S. Navy and replaced by R.A. Lower Half (because reasons) but is in use by the U.K. and other navies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,772 Arc User
    And the US navy is not Starfleet. Canonically there is commodore as the one pip flag rank and that has never changed.
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,201 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Except we don't hear about Commodore post TOS. Not even in the TMP era.

    We don't hear about Scotty past 'Relics' or McCoy past 'Encounter at Farpoint' but it dosn't mean they stopped existing.

    We don't see any one star admirals past TOS either. We also don't see any five star ones. It doesn't mean they vanished.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,093 Arc User
    I'm not disputing character existance or Admiral levels.

    Just saying that we have no evidence of Commodore rank after TOS. And wasn't Starfleet's rank structure based on the US Navy? If ranks in real life can and have been retired, who's to say its not true in Star Trek as well.

    Absence of evidence one way or the other does not equal positive proof of existance.

    That's like going into a paranormal investigation to PROVE a haunting, finding nothing, and saying that its proof positive that there's a ghost there because nothing happened.

    We have no evidence one way or the other besides the fact we don't see the rank again post TOS. Does it exist? We don't know. We have no on screen, canon evidence post TOS.

    I'm all for adding TITLES, but replacing a rank for one that as far as we know was only ever seen in TOS... not so sure that's a good idea.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • valarauko43valarauko43 Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    After googling the topics Fleet Captain, Commodore, Farragut, etc. I decided a while ago to keep my mouth shut The back and forth makes my head spin because until someone films it there is no answer. That being said, it might be helpful to share a couple of things that have been greatly simplified based on the length of the original articles. First, Fleet Captians in the r/l USN (american writers frame of reference?) were often Commanders and were most normally a chief of staff, which became the official designation in r/l. Secondly, the moment they gave a our toons a second ship, so that we now had TWO...we became Commodores. I know, I know, but back in the day theory and practice had a fistfight. It lasted a long time. It finally got solved by RALH, kinda. I don't know how any of this translates to Trek because I have no idea where they got their ideas. My point is, Whom will be the arbiter and who makes that appointment if this is never solved by something canon? I have no problem following a lead but who decides?
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,530 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'm not disputing character existance or Admiral levels.

    Just saying that we have no evidence of Commodore rank after TOS. And wasn't Starfleet's rank structure based on the US Navy? If ranks in real life can and have been retired, who's to say its not true in Star Trek as well.

    Absence of evidence one way or the other does not equal positive proof of existance.

    That's like going into a paranormal investigation to PROVE a haunting, finding nothing, and saying that its proof positive that there's a ghost there because nothing happened.

    We have no evidence one way or the other besides the fact we don't see the rank again post TOS. Does it exist? We don't know. We have no on screen, canon evidence post TOS.

    I'm all for adding TITLES, but replacing a rank for one that as far as we know was only ever seen in TOS... not so sure that's a good idea.
    There is no "absense of evidence." We know the rank exists. TOS is just as canon as everything else.

    The only thing there is an absense of evidence for is this hypothetical "retiring" of the rank that's based on absolutely nothing but speculation.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,093 Arc User
    Evidence of the rank POST TOS. I never discounted TOS as canon.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 5,851 Community Moderator
    edited September 2018
    Some evidence here of its use post TOS.

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Commodore
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,093 Arc User
    Apart from its Original Series usage, a commodore is spoken of in radio traffic heard at the start of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. A commodore "movie pin" is also seen in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. The rank has appeared in ENT, being mentioned in "First Flight" and appearing on background characters in "First Flight", "Shockwave, Part II", "Home", and the "Demons"/"Terra Prime" two-parter. The latter featured the only female commodore yet seen.

    The rank of commodore in Starfleet itself has not been seen or referenced in DS9 or VOY; it was listed in the rank guide used by Robert Blackman and the TNG wardrobe department.[1]

    In the US Navy, the rank of commodore has been phased out (although its use as a title remains for a senior captain who commands a group of ships), and the lowest flag officer rank is currently referred to as "rear admiral (lower half)". It is possible that by the time of the TNG-era, Starfleet has likewise replaced the rank of commodore with that of a "rear admiral-lower half", but that specific term has also never been seen or referenced onscreen.

    So... we're all both right and wrong. It did exist past TOS, but was never really referenced on screen except in a comment Geordi made to Bochra, which was shortly corrected by Bochra.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,772 Arc User
    No, it was on-screen in TNG's "Conspiracy". Further, neither ENT nor the KT retconned it out of existence.

    Your ghost example also makes no sense. It's 'fact' the rank exists we know that. The idea it changed is pure speculation based on 'absence of evidence' in the same way as claiming Spock is actually Picard's biological father.
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,093 Arc User
    Enterprise takes place BEFORE TOS. And the Kelvin Timeline is a seperate timeline taking place in the same era as TOS.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,772 Arc User
    But it was produced after TNG and could have retconned the rank, but didn't. Since the whole argument is based on real life navy stuff they could have went with it.
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 2,318 Arc User
    They could always scroll up the ranks from Rear Admiral Lower Half making Fleet Admiral 65 and add Commodore to Rear Admiral Lower Half's former position.
  • > @jrdobbsjr#3264 said:
    > > @rattler2 said:
    > > Its possible that sometime before TMP the rank of Commodore was retired, or is only used in an honorary capacity.
    > >
    > > I honestly don't know if its in use in modern times either. I know the rank existed, but does it still exist is the question.
    >
    > The USN used it at various times, it was last revived in the 80s, but discontinued a few years later because it caused confusion as Squadron Commanders, usually a O-6 Captain, are called Commodore as a honorific.

    I was Navy. One of my deployments (in 2000) had a full bird Captain as commander of the ships being deployed. He was called Commodore.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 409 Arc User
    > @tacticoolfugga#9235 said:
    > > @jrdobbsjr#3264 said:
    > > > @rattler2 said:
    > > > Its possible that sometime before TMP the rank of Commodore was retired, or is only used in an honorary capacity.
    > > >
    > > > I honestly don't know if its in use in modern times either. I know the rank existed, but does it still exist is the question.
    > >
    > > The USN used it at various times, it was last revived in the 80s, but discontinued a few years later because it caused confusion as Squadron Commanders, usually a O-6 Captain, are called Commodore as a honorific.
    >
    > I was Navy. One of my deployments (in 2000) had a full bird Captain as commander of the ships being deployed. He was called Commodore.

    I was in during the late 80s......the Sqadron Commander of our SUBRON (SUBRON 14) was a CAPT but we called him Commodore.
  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    Science Fiction != Real life armed forces

    I know Trek ranks were based on US Navy ranks of the time, but based on is not the same as every little detail including rank conventions and nicknames being the same.
  • psiameesepsiameese Member Posts: 1,379 Arc User
    How comparable Starfleet ranks are (or are not) with the United States military doesn't interest me in the slightest. However, we have all flavors of Star Trek within STO. There is no good reason to exclude the rank title as a player choice.
    (/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
    #TASforSTO
  • jade1280jade1280 Member Posts: 848 Arc User
    Moist.


    Or was that another crytpic game? :lol:
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,201 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'm not disputing character existance or Admiral levels.

    Just saying that we have no evidence of Commodore rank after TOS. And wasn't Starfleet's rank structure based on the US Navy? If ranks in real life can and have been retired, who's to say its not true in Star Trek as well.

    Absence of evidence one way or the other does not equal positive proof of existance.

    That's like going into a paranormal investigation to PROVE a haunting, finding nothing, and saying that its proof positive that there's a ghost there because nothing happened.

    We have no evidence one way or the other besides the fact we don't see the rank again post TOS. Does it exist? We don't know. We have no on screen, canon evidence post TOS.

    I'm all for adding TITLES, but replacing a rank for one that as far as we know was only ever seen in TOS... not so sure that's a good idea.

    There's evidence it existed and no evidence it ceased to exist. There's also no evidence Starfleet has ever got rid of any ranks so there's no precedent.
    There's also no evidence to say that Vice Admirals aren't renamed Admiral of Four Ships and a Shuttle every second Tuesday in odd numbered years but as it's a bit silly we don't really need evidence to reject the possibility.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,772 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    artan42 wrote: »
    There's evidence it existed and no evidence it ceased to exist. There's also no evidence Starfleet has ever got rid of any ranks so there's no precedent.
    There's also no evidence to say that Vice Admirals aren't renamed Admiral of Four Ships and a Shuttle every second Tuesday in odd numbered years but as it's a bit silly we don't really need evidence to reject the possibility.

    I like your proposal. I want that. I also want the computer to reply with "Okidoki" instead of "Acknowledged" as you suggested elsewhere. You can improve this!​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,201 Bug Hunter
    angrytarg wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    There's evidence it existed and no evidence it ceased to exist. There's also no evidence Starfleet has ever got rid of any ranks so there's no precedent.
    There's also no evidence to say that Vice Admirals aren't renamed Admiral of Four Ships and a Shuttle every second Tuesday in odd numbered years but as it's a bit silly we don't really need evidence to reject the possibility.

    I like your proposal. I want that. I also want the computer to reply with "Okidoki" instead of "Acknowledged" as you suggested elsewhere. You can improve this!

    I'm submitting it to Cryptic as I type.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,397 Arc User
    Bring back the A.S.S. as a permanent option, and add the Okey Dokey to it, please.
    LTS and loving it.
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  • bloodyrizbloodyriz Member Posts: 1,682 Arc User
    jade1280 wrote: »
    Moist.


    Or was that another crytpic game? :lol:

    Nope, it's in STO.​​
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    We come in peace, SHOOT TO KILL!
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