The Federation the good guys? That's a matter of perspective. To everyone else in the galaxy, the Federation is just an annoying, overzealous police officer.
Being the good guy, means making the hard choices. Even being a hero. Who do you save? Who do you protect? The answer is simple, While you're trying to be the "good guy" or the "hero", someone somewhere else is suffering or dying because of your decision. To be a good guy, or hero, you have to be able to make these choices.
Take for instance the Iconian War. all my characters, even my Federation ones made the same choice. "For 200,000 years, the galaxy has prospered without them. Let these few thousand die, to save the millions of lives, if not billions of lives, the war in the future has ended." This is a good guy decision.
Saving them in the past and sacrificing all those lives in the the future, just so you can make peace with them. As stupid as this decision is, it is the hero's decision. On this one, Sela was right. The Federation's decision to save them, makes them the most evil of all. Because it means sacrificing all those lives, for an outcome that doesn't help anyone one, other than the Iconians.
As Kagran said....."We ARE the Others!"
The whole mission was preordained....it was preordained that you were going to go to the past, and help the 13 (not thousands) Iconian survivors escape to Dewa III. And that Sela's stupidity would bring about the Iconian War....your toon even has the option of pointing out that you were probably all in the midst of a predestination paradox after Sela uses a pistol to achieve immortality by becoming the 25th Century's Gavrilo Princip. And that returning the World Heart to the Iconians in the present would end the War. The mission had to happen the way it did....changing it could well have changed everything, including possibly eliminating the Federation, Empire, and/or the Romulans from history. The logical move was to go with the flow and hope for the best....which fortunately happened. The Iconians called off the War at the moment of victory, and apparently fade into history around the 28th century.
But if the goal was to prevent the Iconian War.....that could easily be done by using the Annorax's weapon on Sela and remove her from the timestream. Without her provocation, the Iconians would possibly have never returned....they certainly wouldn't have blown up Romulus. But then.....it may have made things worse, just like the incursion that was intended to delay the discovery of the Iconians that led to Romulus being assimilated instead of blown up.
[J'mpok's choice to withdraw from the Hur'q conflict is the good guy choice, and his first real decision of honor. Well, other than giving the House of Torg a discommendation. This is also a good guy decision. He's thinking of the Empire, not the houses, not the Alliance. But what he needs to do to ensure the Empire survives.
Being a good guy, means doing what is right, and making some seriously hard decisions.
Being a hero, means being stupid enough to endanger everyone around you, just so you can say you were the "good guy."
As I said in @ambassadorkael#6946 question about an "evil faction." We already have four, depending on how you look at it. But to have a faction set out to be the true evil faction, they'd have to show a lot of love to PvP. Because this is where the real Good vs Evil fight will take place. Not in some scripted episode or PvE queue. Plus, it would require something that Cryptic just can't do. Make an enemy that will never be friends with the Federation.
Torg was incontrovertibly a Traitor, and his House backed his Treason.....discommendating him wasn't a "good guy" move, it was J'mpok doing what was expected of him as Chancellor. And as far as the Hur'q....seems to me fighting them outside of Klingon space with allies would be better than fighting them alone in Klingon space, which they would be if the Hur'q overwhelm everybody else. I also recall being told by Klingons letting others do your fighting for you was the sort of thing a Romulan would do...by that they meant deeply dishonorable.
It could well be...and it seems to be the case from the blogs....that the KDF, and Empire's finances, haven't recovered to the point they can make a Maximum effort, which is why J'mpok is reluctant to commit to the war. In that case he'd be better off ordering Martok to lead what ships they can spare into action, and taking credit for the idea even if he knows Martok will do it anyway. The goal is to not telegraph weakness....and I would expect many Klingons would also want to know why they weren't being led into battle against their greatest foe. I don't think claiming that the Feds were taking advantage of them would be a satisfactory excuse.
Though personally, I wonder if the Klingons are as bad off as J'mpok claims....after all, we know that the Iconians planned on rendering Humans and Romulans extinct, and then try to groom the Klingons to be a servitor race ruled by a Quisling High Council (but they would be exterminated if the plan failed).
And "evil" factions? there is only one left in STO....the Mirrortards. The RSE is irrelevant and falling apart as more and more of it's territory defects to the Republic, the Tal'Shiar are being ground to powder by the Republic (and everyone else), the True Way is completely irrelevant and everyone else that could qualify has been crushed already or (like the Iconians and Dominion) is now "misunderstood", not evil. While there is a fair number of people that would love a MU faction.....a story line full of genocide and tormenting people weaker than yourself will get Cryptic unwelcome attention from Anita and her ilk (and her analogues on the Right).
The Federation the good guys? That's a matter of perspective. To everyone else in the galaxy, the Federation is just an annoying, overzealous police officer.
Being the good guy, means making the hard choices. Even being a hero. Who do you save? Who do you protect? The answer is simple, While you're trying to be the "good guy" or the "hero", someone somewhere else is suffering or dying because of your decision. To be a good guy, or hero, you have to be able to make these choices.
Take for instance the Iconian War. all my characters, even my Federation ones made the same choice. "For 200,000 years, the galaxy has prospered without them. Let these few thousand die, to save the millions of lives, if not billions of lives, the war in the future has ended." This is a good guy decision.
Saving them in the past and sacrificing all those lives in the the future, just so you can make peace with them. As stupid as this decision is, it is the hero's decision. On this one, Sela was right. The Federation's decision to save them, makes them the most evil of all. Because it means sacrificing all those lives, for an outcome that doesn't help anyone one, other than the Iconians.
As Kagran said....."We ARE the Others!"
The whole mission was preordained....it was preordained that you were going to go to the past, and help the 13 (not thousands) Iconian survivors escape to Dewa III. And that Sela's stupidity would bring about the Iconian War....your toon even has the option of pointing out that you were probably all in the midst of a predestination paradox after Sela uses a pistol to achieve immortality by becoming the 25th Century's Gavrilo Princip. And that returning the World Heart to the Iconians in the present would end the War. The mission had to happen the way it did....changing it could well have changed everything, including possibly eliminating the Federation, Empire, and/or the Romulans from history. The logical move was to go with the flow and hope for the best....which fortunately happened. The Iconians called off the War at the moment of victory, and apparently fade into history around the 28th century.
But if the goal was to prevent the Iconian War.....that could easily be done by using the Annorax's weapon on Sela and remove her from the timestream. Without her provocation, the Iconians would possibly have never returned....they certainly wouldn't have blown up Romulus. But then.....it may have made things worse, just like the incursion that was intended to delay the discovery of the Iconians that led to Romulus being assimilated instead of blown up.
[J'mpok's choice to withdraw from the Hur'q conflict is the good guy choice, and his first real decision of honor. Well, other than giving the House of Torg a discommendation. This is also a good guy decision. He's thinking of the Empire, not the houses, not the Alliance. But what he needs to do to ensure the Empire survives.
Being a good guy, means doing what is right, and making some seriously hard decisions.
Being a hero, means being stupid enough to endanger everyone around you, just so you can say you were the "good guy."
As I said in @ambassadorkael#6946 question about an "evil faction." We already have four, depending on how you look at it. But to have a faction set out to be the true evil faction, they'd have to show a lot of love to PvP. Because this is where the real Good vs Evil fight will take place. Not in some scripted episode or PvE queue. Plus, it would require something that Cryptic just can't do. Make an enemy that will never be friends with the Federation.
Torg was incontrovertibly a Traitor, and his House backed his Treason.....discommendating him wasn't a "good guy" move, it was J'mpok doing what was expected of him as Chancellor. And as far as the Hur'q....seems to me fighting them outside of Klingon space with allies would be better than fighting them alone in Klingon space, which they would be if the Hur'q overwhelm everybody else. I also recall being told by Klingons letting others do your fighting for you was the sort of thing a Romulan would do...by that they meant deeply dishonorable.
It could well be...and it seems to be the case from the blogs....that the KDF, and Empire's finances, haven't recovered to the point they can make a Maximum effort, which is why J'mpok is reluctant to commit to the war. In that case he'd be better off ordering Martok to lead what ships they can spare into action, and taking credit for the idea even if he knows Martok will do it anyway. The goal is to not telegraph weakness....and I would expect many Klingons would also want to know why they weren't being led into battle against their greatest foe. I don't think claiming that the Feds were taking advantage of them would be a satisfactory excuse.
Though personally, I wonder if the Klingons are as bad off as J'mpok claims....after all, we know that the Iconians planned on rendering Humans and Romulans extinct, and then try to groom the Klingons to be a servitor race ruled by a Quisling High Council (but they would be exterminated if the plan failed).
And "evil" factions? there is only one left in STO....the Mirrortards. The RSE is irrelevant and falling apart as more and more of it's territory defects to the Republic, the Tal'Shiar are being ground to powder by the Republic (and everyone else), the True Way is completely irrelevant and everyone else that could qualify has been crushed already or (like the Iconians and Dominion) is now "misunderstood", not evil. While there is a fair number of people that would love a MU faction.....a story line full of genocide and tormenting people weaker than yourself will get Cryptic unwelcome attention from Anita and her ilk (and her analogues on the Right).
The Federation the good guys? That's a matter of perspective. To everyone else in the galaxy, the Federation is just an annoying, overzealous police officer.
Being the good guy, means making the hard choices. Even being a hero. Who do you save? Who do you protect? The answer is simple, While you're trying to be the "good guy" or the "hero", someone somewhere else is suffering or dying because of your decision. To be a good guy, or hero, you have to be able to make these choices.
Take for instance the Iconian War. all my characters, even my Federation ones made the same choice. "For 200,000 years, the galaxy has prospered without them. Let these few thousand die, to save the millions of lives, if not billions of lives, the war in the future has ended." This is a good guy decision.
Saving them in the past and sacrificing all those lives in the the future, just so you can make peace with them. As stupid as this decision is, it is the hero's decision. On this one, Sela was right. The Federation's decision to save them, makes them the most evil of all. Because it means sacrificing all those lives, for an outcome that doesn't help anyone one, other than the Iconians.
As Kagran said....."We ARE the Others!"
The whole mission was preordained....it was preordained that you were going to go to the past, and help the 13 (not thousands) Iconian survivors escape to Dewa III. And that Sela's stupidity would bring about the Iconian War....your toon even has the option of pointing out that you were probably all in the midst of a predestination paradox after Sela uses a pistol to achieve immortality by becoming the 25th Century's Gavrilo Princip. And that returning the World Heart to the Iconians in the present would end the War. The mission had to happen the way it did....changing it could well have changed everything, including possibly eliminating the Federation, Empire, and/or the Romulans from history. The logical move was to go with the flow and hope for the best....which fortunately happened. The Iconians called off the War at the moment of victory, and apparently fade into history around the 28th century.
But if the goal was to prevent the Iconian War.....that could easily be done by using the Annorax's weapon on Sela and remove her from the timestream. Without her provocation, the Iconians would possibly have never returned....they certainly wouldn't have blown up Romulus. But then.....it may have made things worse, just like the incursion that was intended to delay the discovery of the Iconians that led to Romulus being assimilated instead of blown up.
[J'mpok's choice to withdraw from the Hur'q conflict is the good guy choice, and his first real decision of honor. Well, other than giving the House of Torg a discommendation. This is also a good guy decision. He's thinking of the Empire, not the houses, not the Alliance. But what he needs to do to ensure the Empire survives.
Being a good guy, means doing what is right, and making some seriously hard decisions.
Being a hero, means being stupid enough to endanger everyone around you, just so you can say you were the "good guy."
As I said in @ambassadorkael#6946 question about an "evil faction." We already have four, depending on how you look at it. But to have a faction set out to be the true evil faction, they'd have to show a lot of love to PvP. Because this is where the real Good vs Evil fight will take place. Not in some scripted episode or PvE queue. Plus, it would require something that Cryptic just can't do. Make an enemy that will never be friends with the Federation.
Torg was incontrovertibly a Traitor, and his House backed his Treason.....discommendating him wasn't a "good guy" move, it was J'mpok doing what was expected of him as Chancellor. And as far as the Hur'q....seems to me fighting them outside of Klingon space with allies would be better than fighting them alone in Klingon space, which they would be if the Hur'q overwhelm everybody else. I also recall being told by Klingons letting others do your fighting for you was the sort of thing a Romulan would do...by that they meant deeply dishonorable.
It could well be...and it seems to be the case from the blogs....that the KDF, and Empire's finances, haven't recovered to the point they can make a Maximum effort, which is why J'mpok is reluctant to commit to the war. In that case he'd be better off ordering Martok to lead what ships they can spare into action, and taking credit for the idea even if he knows Martok will do it anyway. The goal is to not telegraph weakness....and I would expect many Klingons would also want to know why they weren't being led into battle against their greatest foe. I don't think claiming that the Feds were taking advantage of them would be a satisfactory excuse.
Though personally, I wonder if the Klingons are as bad off as J'mpok claims....after all, we know that the Iconians planned on rendering Humans and Romulans extinct, and then try to groom the Klingons to be a servitor race ruled by a Quisling High Council (but they would be exterminated if the plan failed).
And "evil" factions? there is only one left in STO....the Mirrortards. The RSE is irrelevant and falling apart as more and more of it's territory defects to the Republic, the Tal'Shiar are being ground to powder by the Republic (and everyone else), the True Way is completely irrelevant and everyone else that could qualify has been crushed already or (like the Iconians and Dominion) is now "misunderstood", not evil. While there is a fair number of people that would love a MU faction.....a story line full of genocide and tormenting people weaker than yourself will get Cryptic unwelcome attention from Anita and her ilk (and her analogues on the Right).
There was no predestination paradox in the Iconian Arc. For 200,000 thousand years, up until they returned, they were presumed extinct, they did not exist in the galaxy any more. So, everything that happens in that 200,000 years, happens. The only thing there that might be different, is the Iconians winning, instead of being eradicated. That's would be the only thing that changes the time line for the next 200,000 thousand years. Other than that, a few things would be different. Which going back to save them, is also the catalyst that causes the war.
1) The Alliance would have never come about. <~~ main point here.
2) The Iconians never re-appeared, as they would be extinct. So no war.
3) Time Travel would not have become a thing we had to deal with.
4) The Elachi wouldn't exist.
All of which happens in our current time of 2409-2410.
Hobus is still questionable... as that was caused by Sela and the Tal'Shiar using Iconian tech. This happened in 2382.
But this is why temporal mechanics for Star Trek is such a pain in the neck. It relies heavily on the Predestination Paradox theory. When in truth, everything living thing has only one pre-ordained thing, and that is to die. Everything before that time, is a choice that living being makes.
The klingon resources, I'd say they're suffering just a bit. I mean, the Iconians hit them harder than the other two factions. The Elachi being the main ones hitting the Romulans hard. Not to mention the Undine's previous attempt at destroying Qo'nos. This followed by the whole Tzenkethi arc. I'd say, yes, they're feeling the pinch on ships currently. Possibly even warriors. Remember, they don't have 200+ member species, with numbers they can continually throw at problems. A few other things to consider here.
1) It takes Starfleet 2 years to build a ship. How long does it take klingons to build one?
2) We now know where T'ket is, which happens to be J'mpok's home system.
3) What did Quark do there?
So yeah, the Empire has it own problems to sort out there. Especially with the package Quark went after.
Yes, I did use Predestination Paradox theory there. That's because currently time travel is impossible. So it can neither be proven or disproved. Leaving it at a best guess kind of thing. But it works great, when you need something to tie stories and events together.
I take that back, time travel is not impossible. As we are all time travelers. Though we can only go in one direction currently, and that is into the future.
Judicious use of editing quotes would be kindly appreciated.
Post edited by ltminns on
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Or the left depending on how you classify it. Right or left, either extreme gets pretty much the same garbage when you go too far.
Anita is more or less the Left's face of the War on Gaming.....the Right has it's own version, which I want to make clear, but I don't think they have a leader as well known as she is.
There was no predestination paradox in the Iconian Arc. For 200,000 thousand years, up until they returned, they were presumed extinct, they did not exist in the galaxy any more. So, everything that happens in that 200,000 years, happens. The only thing there that might be different, is the Iconians winning, instead of being eradicated. That's would be the only thing that changes the time line for the next 200,000 thousand years. Other than that, a few things would be different. Which going back to save them, is also the catalyst that causes the war.
1) The Alliance would have never come about. <~~ main point here.
2) The Iconians never re-appeared, as they would be extinct. So no war.
3) Time Travel would not have become a thing we had to deal with.
4) The Elachi wouldn't exist.
All of which happens in our current time of 2409-2410.
Hobus is still questionable... as that was caused by Sela and the Tal'Shiar using Iconian tech. This happened in 2382.
But this is why temporal mechanics for Star Trek is such a pain in the neck. It relies heavily on the Predestination Paradox theory. When in truth, everything living thing has only one pre-ordained thing, and that is to die. Everything before that time, is a choice that living being makes.
It was known, by the time Midnight takes place, that the Iconians were saved from the destruction of the rest of their species by the Other. It is also known that Hakeev, acting at the behest of the Iconians, manipulated Taris into destroying Hobus.....and that she, unlike Hakeev, was not aware it would destroy Romulus. When the player arrives on Iconia, they end up learning they are the Other, and Sela shoots some of the survivors, prompting T'Ket to swear revenge against the Romulan species.....the direct cause of Hobus and starting the chain of events that led directly to your presence on Iconia 200,000 years in the past. For the player to be there at that time, things had to play out like they did the first time....you had to help the Iconians and Sela had to attack them. Wipe out the Iconians, or prevent Sela from attacking....and the entire timeline changes, possibly beyond recognition. And given what happened when the Alliance meddled with time, it probably would have been less than optimal.
Basically, there is a 200,000 year time loop that goes from the day of Iconia's destruction, to 2410 and the battle above Earth during Midnight. Sparing the Iconians and returning with the World Heart to appease the Iconians resolves it. apparently Ragnarok resolves another, if the blog about Na'Khul fleeing Procyon V return to the 31st century to find their star alive again implies what I think it does.
Good! Now you fedophiles know how some of us redside and red/green players feel, what with there being a blue infestation of root beer sippers everywhere(including the bar at DS9 and other social hubs). You take it and like it! Maybe it'll teach your faction to pull back from trying to blanket the galaxy.
The difference is, though, that we are the good guys. We bring peace and democracy, the Dominion and especially the xenophobic Founders hates us, they even tried to invade and defeat us.
And now we're letting them.
You may think that root beer sippers are horrifying, but think what will happen when the Vorta and Jem'hadar become the most populous species in our space. At least we Feds only drink root beer. Jem'hadar use drugs, that's worse because they are classified separately alongside alcohol. And they only use ketracel white. Vorta are even worse customers.
"Good guys?" According to who? I'm sure that Janeway and Sisko are the good guys, when they commit war crimes and atrocities upon others. I'm sure that the Federation are the good guys, when they expect others to abide by their rules/laws/ideals, yet ignore the same when it's convenient, or they think nobody's looking(see USS Pegasus and phase cloak development). Spreading throughout the galaxy, trying to bring sovereign powers/nations to heel under your banner, expecting them to live by your rules and regulations, whilst maintaining control of economy, military, travel, and communications, making them dependents. Also known as slaves.
The Federation brings interference and an imposition via an empire wrapped in blue, under the illusion of "We just want to explore and make friends. Universal peace for everyone."
Of course the Dominion, and various others hate the Federation. Federation originally invaded Dominion territory when they interloped through the wormhole, and ended up starting the Dominion War. Federation threw the Maquis out in the cold, for the sake of appeasement. Federation was party to messing up the Tuterians with temporal shenanigans.
Really??? Can we please put aside the POLITICAL innuendos? The OP title and some of this discussion really sounds ironic more like political TRIBBLE gone insane... I have enough of this in the real world and escaping to this virtual world guess not far enough. Even if we take the innuendo for what it is...still nonsensical.
Really??? Can we please put aside the POLITICAL innuendos? The OP title and some of this discussion really sounds ironic more like political **** gone insane... I have enough of this in the real world and escaping to this virtual world guess not far enough. Even if we take the innuendo for what it is...still nonsensical.
What real life politicians say or do is up to them, I was merely (with some references to DS9) stimulating discussion on the fact that there are so many Jem'hadar.
Which is ironic given our history with the Dominion, but merely ironic from an in-universe perspective if you ask me.
Good! Now you fedophiles know how some of us redside and red/green players feel, what with there being a blue infestation of root beer sippers everywhere(including the bar at DS9 and other social hubs). You take it and like it! Maybe it'll teach your faction to pull back from trying to blanket the galaxy.
The difference is, though, that we are the good guys. We bring peace and democracy, the Dominion and especially the xenophobic Founders hates us, they even tried to invade and defeat us.
And now we're letting them.
You may think that root beer sippers are horrifying, but think what will happen when the Vorta and Jem'hadar become the most populous species in our space. At least we Feds only drink root beer. Jem'hadar use drugs, that's worse because they are classified separately alongside alcohol. And they only use ketracel white. Vorta are even worse customers.
"Good guys?" According to who? I'm sure that Janeway and Sisko are the good guys, when they commit war crimes and atrocities upon others. I'm sure that the Federation are the good guys, when they expect others to abide by their rules/laws/ideals, yet ignore the same when it's convenient, or they think nobody's looking(see USS Pegasus and phase cloak development). Spreading throughout the galaxy, trying to bring sovereign powers/nations to heel under your banner, expecting them to live by your rules and regulations, whilst maintaining control of economy, military, travel, and communications, making them dependents. Also known as slaves.
The Federation brings interference and an imposition via an empire wrapped in blue, under the illusion of "We just want to explore and make friends. Universal peace for everyone."
Of course the Dominion, and various others hate the Federation. Federation originally invaded Dominion territory when they interloped through the wormhole, and ended up starting the Dominion War. Federation threw the Maquis out in the cold, for the sake of appeasement. Federation was party to messing up the Tuterians with temporal shenanigans.
Just because Janeway and Sisko weren't perfect, doesn't mean that they weren't the good guys. Yes, they made mistakes. Most people, including most Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Founders do.
Doesn't change much about the fact that the Federation has more often been the victim of other species being aggressive, than the instigator of conflict. The Federation hopes for the best for all species so that they can live in freedom and co-exist peacefully.
Of course it does so from its own perspectives and while following its own principles, but you can't deny that they do strive for the best for all.
And besides, who wouldn't follow its own principles in its foreign policy and external relations? Everyone does that, logically, so blaming only the Feds for it is somewhat hypocritical. At least the Feds following of their own principles isn't negatively affecting anyone.
Except maybe in the cases where the Prime Directive forbids helping another species, but in that case the presence of the Federation isn't the problem, rather its absence is according to those who often launch such critiques.
Oh and the whole Maquis thing isn't quite correct technically, they could well remain at their worlds, they just wouldn't be protected by the Federation anymore because the territory was handed over.
DS9 is overcrowded with NPCs. My Captains are constantly rubberbanding just walking from the beam-in point to the Bank. And why are there so many NPCs clustered in the Bank anyway?
Please, don't take this the wrong way, because I love the look of the station, it just seems overly cramped now.
Oh and the whole Maquis thing isn't quite correct technically, they could well remain at their worlds, they just wouldn't be protected by the Federation anymore because the territory was handed over.
Like that one world where the population decided they'd rather become Cardassian citizens than relocate.
DS9 is overcrowded with NPCs. My Captains are constantly rubberbanding just walking from the beam-in point to the Bank. And why are there so many NPCs clustered in the Bank anyway?
Please, don't take this the wrong way, because I love the look of the station, it just seems overly cramped now.
They're supposed to patrol the promenade but don't path through doors right.
Oh and the whole Maquis thing isn't quite correct technically, they could well remain at their worlds, they just wouldn't be protected by the Federation anymore because the territory was handed over.
Like that one world where the population decided they'd rather become Cardassian citizens than relocate.
DS9 is overcrowded with NPCs. My Captains are constantly rubberbanding just walking from the beam-in point to the Bank. And why are there so many NPCs clustered in the Bank anyway?
Please, don't take this the wrong way, because I love the look of the station, it just seems overly cramped now.
They're supposed to patrol the promenade but don't path through doors right.
Open PVP in social zones is just a fancy way of saying you want the game to be turned into Grief Trek Online.
Perfectly reasonable that there are tons of Jem'Hadar characters right now, it's the new thing and everyone is exploring the content. It won't be long before the numbers will even back out.
Just let people have fun.
they could take a page from SWTOR and have PVP instances.. I think wow does the same thing
The Federation is not the good guys. The protagonist crews of the shows are the good guys, the player characters in STO are the good guys. Most of the time anyway.
The Federation itself is very averse to helping those in need. To the point of mandating it's officers act like those jerks who, upon seeing an accident on the highway, slow down to gawk and then drive away. Many an episode has revolved around the heroes trying to find ways to circumvent said mandate without ending their careers in the process. Even STO has situations in which you are explicitly told not to do the right thing, because Prime Directive.
As for the ending of the iconian arc, the the moral of the story was that time-travel doesn't allow you to tailor history to your preference, only to roll the dice. And that odds are the dice aren't going to roll the way you wanted them to. Which flows naturally into the next arc where we stop others who didn't learn their lesson the first time from effing up all of history on the same fool's errand.
Federation originally invaded Dominion territory when they interloped through the wormhole, and ended up starting the Dominion War.
Are there still people making that claim? The war was not the fault of anyone from the Alpha Quadrant.
The Wormhole isn't in Dominion Territory, despite their claims that they own everything. They were apparently quite a distance from the wormhole, going by the complete absence of any Dominion ships or outposts despite spending years exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation wasn't in their territory.
Federation originally invaded Dominion territory when they interloped through the wormhole, and ended up starting the Dominion War.
Are there still people making that claim? The war was not the fault of anyone from the Alpha Quadrant.
The Wormhole isn't in Dominion Territory, despite their claims that they own everything. They were apparently quite a distance from the wormhole, going by the complete absence of any Dominion ships or outposts despite spending years exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation wasn't in their territory.
Agreed.
Although I would argue that the whole thing was handled badly from the onset. The crux of it is, regardless of the fact that it wasn't Dominion territory, the Dominion made it clear that they were offended by the presence of Stafleet and Starfleet basically said "tough - you can't stop us doing what we want (exploring)".
Uncharacteristically ballsy coming from the Federation, usually so very eager to appease those it deems worthy of it's attention. It was nonetheless the correct reaction.
Federation originally invaded Dominion territory when they interloped through the wormhole, and ended up starting the Dominion War.
Are there still people making that claim? The war was not the fault of anyone from the Alpha Quadrant.
The Wormhole isn't in Dominion Territory, despite their claims that they own everything. They were apparently quite a distance from the wormhole, going by the complete absence of any Dominion ships or outposts despite spending years exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation wasn't in their territory.
Agreed.
Although I would argue that the whole thing was handled badly from the onset. The crux of it is, regardless of the fact that it wasn't Dominion territory, the Dominion made it clear that they were offended by the presence of Stafleet and Starfleet basically said "tough - you can't stop us doing what we want (exploring)".
I'm not really surprised the Federation wouldn't be too receptive to their demands.
They just admitted to kidnapping Federation citizens, destroying multiple Starfleet ships and a Bajoran colony, before boarding a Starfleet-run station to boast about what they did and give the Federation orders about where they are and are not allowed to go (in unclaimed territory that the Dominion don't even own).
The Dominions act was probably less about terrotorial claims and more an attempt to cow the Federation by the show of force, so they could continue to build up their own forces and destabalize the Quadrant undisturbed and unnoticed. Something the Klingons could tell them would very likely backfire.
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There was no predestination paradox in the Iconian Arc. For 200,000 thousand years, up until they returned, they were presumed extinct, they did not exist in the galaxy any more. So, everything that happens in that 200,000 years, happens. The only thing there that might be different, is the Iconians winning, instead of being eradicated. That's would be the only thing that changes the time line for the next 200,000 thousand years. Other than that, a few things would be different. Which going back to save them, is also the catalyst that causes the war.
1) The Alliance would have never come about. <~~ main point here.
2) The Iconians never re-appeared, as they would be extinct. So no war.
3) Time Travel would not have become a thing we had to deal with.
4) The Elachi wouldn't exist.
All of which happens in our current time of 2409-2410.
Hobus is still questionable... as that was caused by Sela and the Tal'Shiar using Iconian tech. This happened in 2382.
But this is why temporal mechanics for Star Trek is such a pain in the neck. It relies heavily on the Predestination Paradox theory. When in truth, everything living thing has only one pre-ordained thing, and that is to die. Everything before that time, is a choice that living being makes.
The klingon resources, I'd say they're suffering just a bit. I mean, the Iconians hit them harder than the other two factions. The Elachi being the main ones hitting the Romulans hard. Not to mention the Undine's previous attempt at destroying Qo'nos. This followed by the whole Tzenkethi arc. I'd say, yes, they're feeling the pinch on ships currently. Possibly even warriors. Remember, they don't have 200+ member species, with numbers they can continually throw at problems. A few other things to consider here.
1) It takes Starfleet 2 years to build a ship. How long does it take klingons to build one?
2) We now know where T'ket is, which happens to be J'mpok's home system.
3) What did Quark do there?
So yeah, the Empire has it own problems to sort out there. Especially with the package Quark went after.
Yes, I did use Predestination Paradox theory there. That's because currently time travel is impossible. So it can neither be proven or disproved. Leaving it at a best guess kind of thing. But it works great, when you need something to tie stories and events together.
I take that back, time travel is not impossible. As we are all time travelers. Though we can only go in one direction currently, and that is into the future.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Anita is more or less the Left's face of the War on Gaming.....the Right has it's own version, which I want to make clear, but I don't think they have a leader as well known as she is.
It was known, by the time Midnight takes place, that the Iconians were saved from the destruction of the rest of their species by the Other. It is also known that Hakeev, acting at the behest of the Iconians, manipulated Taris into destroying Hobus.....and that she, unlike Hakeev, was not aware it would destroy Romulus. When the player arrives on Iconia, they end up learning they are the Other, and Sela shoots some of the survivors, prompting T'Ket to swear revenge against the Romulan species.....the direct cause of Hobus and starting the chain of events that led directly to your presence on Iconia 200,000 years in the past. For the player to be there at that time, things had to play out like they did the first time....you had to help the Iconians and Sela had to attack them. Wipe out the Iconians, or prevent Sela from attacking....and the entire timeline changes, possibly beyond recognition. And given what happened when the Alliance meddled with time, it probably would have been less than optimal.
Basically, there is a 200,000 year time loop that goes from the day of Iconia's destruction, to 2410 and the battle above Earth during Midnight. Sparing the Iconians and returning with the World Heart to appease the Iconians resolves it. apparently Ragnarok resolves another, if the blog about Na'Khul fleeing Procyon V return to the 31st century to find their star alive again implies what I think it does.
"Good guys?" According to who? I'm sure that Janeway and Sisko are the good guys, when they commit war crimes and atrocities upon others. I'm sure that the Federation are the good guys, when they expect others to abide by their rules/laws/ideals, yet ignore the same when it's convenient, or they think nobody's looking(see USS Pegasus and phase cloak development). Spreading throughout the galaxy, trying to bring sovereign powers/nations to heel under your banner, expecting them to live by your rules and regulations, whilst maintaining control of economy, military, travel, and communications, making them dependents. Also known as slaves.
The Federation brings interference and an imposition via an empire wrapped in blue, under the illusion of "We just want to explore and make friends. Universal peace for everyone."
Of course the Dominion, and various others hate the Federation. Federation originally invaded Dominion territory when they interloped through the wormhole, and ended up starting the Dominion War. Federation threw the Maquis out in the cold, for the sake of appeasement. Federation was party to messing up the Tuterians with temporal shenanigans.
Really??? Can we please put aside the POLITICAL innuendos? The OP title and some of this discussion really sounds ironic more like political TRIBBLE gone insane... I have enough of this in the real world and escaping to this virtual world guess not far enough. Even if we take the innuendo for what it is...still nonsensical.
Original STO beta tester.
What real life politicians say or do is up to them, I was merely (with some references to DS9) stimulating discussion on the fact that there are so many Jem'hadar.
Which is ironic given our history with the Dominion, but merely ironic from an in-universe perspective if you ask me.
Just because Janeway and Sisko weren't perfect, doesn't mean that they weren't the good guys. Yes, they made mistakes. Most people, including most Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Founders do.
Doesn't change much about the fact that the Federation has more often been the victim of other species being aggressive, than the instigator of conflict. The Federation hopes for the best for all species so that they can live in freedom and co-exist peacefully.
Of course it does so from its own perspectives and while following its own principles, but you can't deny that they do strive for the best for all.
And besides, who wouldn't follow its own principles in its foreign policy and external relations? Everyone does that, logically, so blaming only the Feds for it is somewhat hypocritical. At least the Feds following of their own principles isn't negatively affecting anyone.
Except maybe in the cases where the Prime Directive forbids helping another species, but in that case the presence of the Federation isn't the problem, rather its absence is according to those who often launch such critiques.
Oh and the whole Maquis thing isn't quite correct technically, they could well remain at their worlds, they just wouldn't be protected by the Federation anymore because the territory was handed over.
DS9 is overcrowded with NPCs. My Captains are constantly rubberbanding just walking from the beam-in point to the Bank. And why are there so many NPCs clustered in the Bank anyway?
Please, don't take this the wrong way, because I love the look of the station, it just seems overly cramped now.
My character Tsin'xing
They path as well as the cars do on Champions.
they could take a page from SWTOR and have PVP instances.. I think wow does the same thing
The Federation itself is very averse to helping those in need. To the point of mandating it's officers act like those jerks who, upon seeing an accident on the highway, slow down to gawk and then drive away. Many an episode has revolved around the heroes trying to find ways to circumvent said mandate without ending their careers in the process. Even STO has situations in which you are explicitly told not to do the right thing, because Prime Directive.
As for the ending of the iconian arc, the the moral of the story was that time-travel doesn't allow you to tailor history to your preference, only to roll the dice. And that odds are the dice aren't going to roll the way you wanted them to. Which flows naturally into the next arc where we stop others who didn't learn their lesson the first time from effing up all of history on the same fool's errand.
Are there still people making that claim? The war was not the fault of anyone from the Alpha Quadrant.
The Wormhole isn't in Dominion Territory, despite their claims that they own everything. They were apparently quite a distance from the wormhole, going by the complete absence of any Dominion ships or outposts despite spending years exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation wasn't in their territory.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm not really surprised the Federation wouldn't be too receptive to their demands.
They just admitted to kidnapping Federation citizens, destroying multiple Starfleet ships and a Bajoran colony, before boarding a Starfleet-run station to boast about what they did and give the Federation orders about where they are and are not allowed to go (in unclaimed territory that the Dominion don't even own).
The Dominions act was probably less about terrotorial claims and more an attempt to cow the Federation by the show of force, so they could continue to build up their own forces and destabalize the Quadrant undisturbed and unnoticed. Something the Klingons could tell them would very likely backfire.