I like this game. I have enough disposable cash to purchase some pretties and get a slightly better ship and race. This helps fund further development and content for all players including those who are totally f2p. If cryptic hadnt included a free kemhadar variant then i would agree but they have.....so pay if you wish or dont. Play the game or dont.
The internet mentality of criticising a company for charging for a product they sell is so incredibly small minded and daft. If they dont make a profit this game wont exist in any shape or form. Grow up.
I like this game. I have enough disposable cash to purchase some pretties and get a slightly better ship and race. This helps fund further development and content for all players including those who are totally f2p. If cryptic hadnt included a free kemhadar variant then i would agree but they have.....so pay if you wish or dont. Play the game or dont.
The internet mentality of criticising a company for charging for a product they sell is so incredibly small minded and daft. If they dont make a profit this game wont exist in any shape or form. Grow up.
Wholeheartedly agree with that. Without paying Cryptic for things, we won't see anything amazing anymore. Wish they'd make awesome hairstyles for the Zen Store, I'd totally pay for that, too.
If that were true, lockbox ships would simply be cosmetic unlocks for existing ships, without unique stats, traits, or gear.
Lockbox stuff is NOT REQUIRED to play the game.
That's what I was pointing out.
There are people who can make a free stock ship with mk XII gear competative and fully capable of handling endgame content. Anything on top of that is just gravy. Besides... who uses the stock gear on a lockbox ship anyways? Literally the only thing worth keeping in most instances is the console as the rest of the gear is garbage to be replaced with gear you already own.
The console is exactly what I was referring to when I said gear. Sure, non-gamble ships can get the job done, but my point was that lockboxes don't follow the cosmetic only kind of deal that these things gamble systems should be limited to.
I like this game. I have enough disposable cash to purchase some pretties and get a slightly better ship and race. This helps fund further development and content for all players including those who are totally f2p. If cryptic hadnt included a free kemhadar variant then i would agree but they have.....so pay if you wish or dont. Play the game or dont.
The internet mentality of criticising a company for charging for a product they sell is so incredibly small minded and daft. If they dont make a profit this game wont exist in any shape or form. Grow up.
Wholeheartedly agree with that. Without paying Cryptic for things, we won't see anything amazing anymore. Wish they'd make awesome hairstyles for the Zen Store, I'd totally pay for that, too.
Question: who here is actually complaining about the basic principles of a F2P model (ie. that Vanguard Jem'Hadar, Cardassians, and all other premium species should be free) as opposed to the specific deficiencies of one premium species option as compared to other premium species options (ie. there should be more to Vanguard Jem'Hadar besides a simple stat advantage, it's not making best use of the opportunity)?
You guys are at least three posts removed from replying to anyone in the "opposing camp." You may want to double back to be sure you're on a relevant track.
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I haven't played any of ViL yet. But as long as I've played this game, people have been asking for playable Cardassians and playable Jem'hadar. Now, we're going to get both. With the Jem'hadar coming in two flavors.
So, why is this a problem?
I intend to make a Jem'Hadar character and have fun with it. And I really don't care about the difference between the two.
Because I'll get to play STO as a Jem'Hadar.
I'm not going to feel cheated or ripped off or disrepsected or any of that childish nonsense if it turns out one is a little bit better than the other one. Because it isn't relevant to why I play STO. And I do not have a problem with Cryptic making a little coin off an addon.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
It's not, no one is saying that the basic fact of a premium Jem'Hadar species is in any way morally reprehensible. Read the thread, what started this tangent of yours and several others is general prognostication rather than a specific comment directed at specific individuals. It's not relevant.
The issue that me and several others have laid out is simply that the second premium Jem'Hadar species does not appear to have the qualities of a premium species that all but one, from a certain faction's point of view, contain. There is feedback to give in saying "Hey, can there be additional customization options to build in setting and narrative a greater distinction than just one or two traits, because over the long term the pricing and content development of a separate playable unlock for something offered in a lock box (ie. unique traits) doesn't seem to be the best use of the opportunity or resources. More can be done and in some small and apparently feasible ways."
(Seriously, why go through the trouble of coding a new species on the back end [which we know is labor intensive] if the desire is only to add a new trait? That could be added as an item in the VIL content bundles, which would be interesting way of building up the "genetic toolkit" of Jem'Hadar soldiers if more are added.)
Are we clear now? If you don't care what the difference is, great. It's not something anyone needs to care about (including Cryptic, this is just feedback). But, then why extend that to not caring about what the two sides are in an discussion? That's a recipe for not at all good things. There are things we can talk about, but if what's wanted is self-affirmation over an other who may not exist then this thread really doesn't have a purpose.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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You guys are at least three posts removed from replying to anyone in the "opposing camp." You may want to double back to be sure you're on a relevant track.
The console is exactly what I was referring to when I said gear. Sure, non-gamble ships can get the job done, but my point was that lockboxes don't follow the cosmetic only kind of deal that these things gamble systems should be limited to.
Lock Box ships aren't 'cosmetic only,' that's obviously true. But they aren't also obscenely powerful. Even the best of the Lock Box ships are in line with ships you can just buy off the C-Store as an account unlock. My main flies a Vengeance, a ship most people consider to be one of the 'top dog' ships for Fed. It's a great ship, but doesn't really out perform my Odyssey.
The issue is that Pay to Win games are often too difficult to play using only assets accrued in game. STO is definitely not like that, maybe paid items aren't cosmetic only, but that doesn't make them P2W either.
I am as cynical as anyone when it comes to the way Crytpic has managed this game in recent years. I make no secret of the fact that they do a lot of things that I don't like and I often question their business practices, but even I have to admit that STO is extremely generous when it comes to free items. You can get some really nice stuff in this game without paying a dime. A Free 2 Play account can easily do anything they want in this game, even Elite Queues. Yes, it will take more effort then it would by just buying what you need.. but it's still possible.
Lock Box items are a luxury in this game.. nothing more.
"...if what's wanted is self-affirmation over an other who may not exist this thread really doesn't have a purpose."
Thank you for stating my point so much more succinctly than I did.
Fixed that for you. I'd hate to think that folks might have judged a moment's oversight (be careful about how much you clip off!) as resting on a misconception. That would be so unfortunate.
Anyway: serious question to the general thread, if apart from everything else (ex. the question of whether Vanguard Jem'Hadar will include any maximum slider tweaks, novel horns, or a deeper place in lore) traits as bonus starter items are now marketable (it's the mechanical feature Vanguards are being sold by at present) why not go one step further? Instead of enhanced traits tied to species, why not bundle additional traits besides a mere one-up that are targeted at new characters? I gift new alts with an ad-hoc trait bundle as is, why not sell to this? Could be an under-exploited market (now accessible thanks to an unintended step in that direction. Ie. Vanguard Jem'Hadar as far as we know them know. Make it a thing but do it through trait boxes which carry no other expectations and more general application.)
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@duncanidaho11 You 'fixed' nothing at all. All you did was try to score points by playing to the crowd. With an emphasis on "try". As usual.
This thread appears to be about people thinking they're going to be cheated out of something by Cryptic. I'd like to be wrong but the rampant self entitlement all throughout these forums shows me I'm probably not.
To try and get some usefulness out of this waste of electrons and time, I present the following:
When I first read about the Vanguard Jem'Hadar the thought which occurred to me was - Jem'Hadar v2.0. Or even v2.5. Since we've seen a different version in game from what was presented in DS9. It is a reasonable assumption the Dominion geneticists are constantly looking for ways to improve the quality of their primary defense force troops. And the version available in the Vanguard boxes represents the current Dominion state of the art in vat grown, ketra cell addicted footsoldiers. As such they are only around in limited quantities and are reserved for tasks which are considered vital to the continued survival and well being of the Dominion and its Founders. For most tasks, 'ordinary' Jem'Hadar will do just fine and as such will be far more numerous and also far more often encountered.
From a careful reading of the original announcement about the Vanguard boxes and the Vanguard Jem'Hadar, followed up by some thinking and research on similar game systems and recalling from personal experiences with the transition from the M1 Abrams MBT to the M1A1, I do not see how there will be that big a difference between how they play in game. At best I can forsee about a five to ten percent variance between them. Of course both types of Jem'Hadar will be crippled badly by the fact players have to use them for them to work ingame.
The cosmetic stuff is fluff. While I do see why some of the player base would want some extra customization options available to everyone, MMO's function with some amount of exclusivity to give players a percieved value to their purchase. This plays perfectly to the Human psyche's natural desire to look around and be able to say, "I'm special and the rest of you are not!" without uttering a single word.
Again from personal example, I purchased the MU Mogai off the Exchange when it became available there for one reason only: To be able to use the MU Mogai skin on my FT6 Morrigu. This was before the Admiralty system and the Infinity Lockboxes and all the other ways of acquiring MU ships. So I spent a large amount of imaginary money inside an imaginary universe to acquire an imaginary item which made my imaginary ship look different from most of the other Mogais.
Notice I said purchase. At no time ever did I expect anyone at Cryptic to give me anything. And, as the game continued, the option to purchase the MU Mogai became available in a limited fashion for others to purchase.
It is what it is and this is all it is.
I expect in the fullness of time, Cryptic will make all of the options on the Vanguard Jem'Hadar available for purchase somehow to the 'have nots'. After they have successfully created a market for these. The wailing and teeth gnashing going on all throughout this thread indicates they are succeeding in this before the damn things even come to market in the first place.
Done with this thread because I've had my say. Deeply sorry I ever decided to post here in the first place. Or anywhere else on these forums for that matter. Go on and get your last word in duncan because this what your toadies and sycophants expect. I'm most defintely not one of the "favored children" around here like you so obviously are.
Which suits me just fine.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
> @thunderfoot006 said: > I haven't played any of ViL yet. But as long as I've played this game, people have been asking for playable Cardassians and playable Jem'hadar. Now, we're going to get both. With the Jem'hadar coming in two flavors. > > So, why is this a problem? > > I intend to make a Jem'Hadar character and have fun with it. And I really don't care about the difference between the two. > > Because I'll get to play STO as a Jem'Hadar. > > I'm not going to feel cheated or ripped off or disrepsected or any of that childish nonsense if it turns out one is a little bit better than the other one. Because it isn't relevant to why I play STO. And I do not have a problem with Cryptic making a little coin off an addon.
Honestly I don't even worry about race stats in this game, they are too insigifnicant an influence on the game play to care. I pick races for fluff so I'm more interested in the background of the Vanguard Jem'hadar and how they came about and why then I am in their stats.
This thread appears to be about people thinking they're going to be cheated out of something by Cryptic.
And you can stop right there, you're ranting about people who don't exist. There's no claims of cheating at work here, just a species that isn't living up to its potential, as exemplified by other premium options (which include exclusive cosmetic unlocks, haven't been confirmed yet for Vanguards), or an alternative packaging system that isn't being explore to its own potential (ie. go further with the Vanguard idea, include more starter traits with bundles.) You may have read otherwise from commentary on this page but ultimately that's not substantiated by anything other than a single post on p.3 (author: lusanio) that went off on a spontaneous tangent about people complaining about a premium option existing at all (without quoting anyone directly). That's simply an incorrect read of the thread and those arriving new to discussion took it at face value (jiralinria graciously admitted as such, and it's not to worry because misunderstandings happen.)
Further objections of yours I'll refer to your own inner monolog, its well clear of the topic and you don't seem to be in a good place right now to have a civil discussion. Please do read the thread in full before commenting next time (it's just good practice.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Instead of enhanced traits tied to species, why not bundle additional traits besides a mere one-up that are targeted at new characters?
Pretty sure they've done this already Genetic Resequencers anyone? Or did you mean an account unlock in Z-store?
Honestly though... what IS a premium species in STO actually? There's little more to a premium race than the main racial trait. Some get a few costume options others don't, but those are often things that don't even make sense to have linked to a specific species. For example, Orion shoulderpads and the Nausicaan cuirass armor. Yeah those aren't premium species, but the special costumes they get don't make much sense to have as species specific options.
So yes, racial traits and aesthetics are pretty much the core of what a premium race is in STO. Tril vs Joined Trill is pretty much the poster child for free vs premium here.
Instead of enhanced traits tied to species, why not bundle additional traits besides a mere one-up that are targeted at new characters?
Pretty sure they've done this already Genetic Resequencers anyone? Or did you mean an account unlock in Z-store?
Well I meant put the premium traits with starter kits and bundles. We have a lot of choice when it comes to the lock boxes but to use those traits on a brand new character you need an established character (with sufficient EC) and knowledge of those abilities. They aren't being marketed to newcomers, as is the case with Vanguard Jem'Hadar.
What I'm suggesting is put the merchandise in the window rather than keeping it on the back shelf. Put more traits in bundles, they pair well with making a new character.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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"...if what's wanted is self-affirmation over an other who may not exist this thread really doesn't have a purpose."
Thank you for stating my point so much more succinctly than I did.
But there is a point to this thread, and that is to spark debate, which it did. Granted, we aren't always doing so as best we can but still, these things should be talked about. There are numerous points and issues here, being focused on differently by the various commentors but not a lot of people are taking that step to look at the possible whole. In any discussion online, you're going to have the farthest points on the spectrum of those who agree no matter what and those who out right hate everything about it. in between those people are a wide variety of people with their own valid points and opinions to the subject. The thing though, is that while each person is entitled to their opinion on the points they're making, this isn't just about the one thing or another. It's all of it.
There is a slight, very minuscule pay to win factor, the cost isn't great but it IS there. Yes, we don't know all the details yet. Yes, we already have things in-game already like this but with the ships. Yes, people are always going to buy it regardless and yes, we don't HAVE to pay real money for this. But each one of those things is just a part of the whole picture. if you have a car and a minor part fails, that might not be a big deal. If you have a car with a minor issue, as well as, several other problems and defects, you have a problem. Yes, that car might be running fine now but if you don't pay attention to it, if you don't DO something about it, it. will. get. worse.
EA didn't just do what they did in Battlefront because it would be a laugh. This has been a building issue because nobody was doing anything about it. Over the last few years, the kinds of things they were blatant about have been slowly escalating, of which, Cryptic is just as guilty. No, we might not have ALL of the things EA did in STO but at the same time, the escalation is still there. Did we have $100 ship packs at launch? Did we even have $30 ships? Look at the progression of lockboxes, both here and in other Cryptic games like Champions online. They've slowly been evolving as well. Ships, cosmetics, then consoles, then traits and masteries. Right now, it's more mix and match than pay to win but little by little it creeps in.
It's not just that you can pay for a better Jem'Hadar than those who don't pay (though that IS the case, regardless), but the potential future of that. It's another escalation. I, personally, don't want to see them charging for better versions of existing races because just like ships, what happens when they charge again for an even better version of that? And then again after that? But that's what they did with ships, so if people let them do that with characters as well, what comes next? They're already making us pay for upgrading weapons and gear as well, though luckily that's just in-game currencies... Except those c-store items that you get for buy things in the C-store that totally work instantly to max things out. But guess what? Now that they're raising the bar again, anyone who spent money on that can now spend money or grind again to get that slight advantage.
That's why discussions like this matter. That's why we need this kind of debate going on, not just for us but for the companies as well. Sure, people have no problem paying $20 for a character they want, but every so many months, if they're paying another $5 to keep it maxed, that $20 character is a lot more expensive that just the initial price. Once the company knows you'll pay for that, they'll add that kind of pricing to other things in game. And when everything in the game has these costs, possibly on top of those still paying an actual subscription fee, how much is a "free to play" game really costing? Throw into that the gambling mechanics and "keeping up with the johnsons" this game is very clearly taking advantage of people to make money. The thing is though, people aren't seeing that as a whole. They see an issue that affects them and voice out about it. Issues that don't bother them, they defend "because companies need money". They're not seeing all the bad things game companies are doing, all at once, to numerous other people. It you have people donating blood, another few each donating a kidney, marrow, a lung, or minor bit of tissue that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing because it's going to a good cause. But what happens if they start asking for a little bit more of each donor? That's not bad, right? Sure, you don't HAVE to but look at what it does it you DO give a little extra? Seeing how much people are willing to give, the company with a history of bad decisions and poor practices, is once again, asking for a little more from each donor, on top of the original and the previous "little bit more". What EA did was try to take all of the things all at once, so people noticed that "Hey... this isn't right." and there was a backlash for it. What Cryptic is doing is a much more reasonably paces escalation but it's still escalating.
We need to have these talks to gauge "how much is too much?" and "as a whole, how is this changing the game". It isn't until you put all these pieces together that you really see the predatory nature of the way game companies like cryptic are doing things. Do they mean to be predatory? No, of course not. There are a lot of really good people at that company just trying to make a living and work on Star Trek. But that doesn't mean they're going about making money in the best way possible. They're only doing what people allow them to do, and will only do so until things break and they have to change. If you let a child do this, what happens? Honestly? Things get really bad. It's the same with companies. Even Disney, the most child friendly company world wide is letting employees die of starvation. Why? Because no one is telling them "No, that's bad." Is it their fault directly? Of course not, but they had a hand in it. They could have easily done something but not enough people were outspoken about it. Not enough people were saying that "This is unacceptable."
Just coming online and telling people that they need to be quite because you can afford it, isn't helping them or their problems. Just because you're not in this in the same way that other people are, doesn't mean that they're not as affected by it as you or worse. The more you let Cryptic get away with the more they will gladly do so, if it means profit. What happens if Cryptic gets the license pulled? If they, much like EA, had a petition online with over 100,000 thousand signatures asking Paramount/CBS to pull the rights from them? Are we there yet? No but we're not far off. Admittedly, with this group, we could probably get that just trolling. There are enough angry people at this game and Cryptic to sign it but toss in the people signing it "just for laughs" or because they hate Cryptic enough, as a whole, to do so?
Yes, the Pay'Hadar have a very minor pay to win advantage but it's almost negligible. Yes, the price is still a very low one and could even be much lower if they sell them as an individual purchase in the store. But neither of those two individual points are the whole slew of issues being discussed here. We need these kinds of discussions.
I don't mind The Pay'Hadar for being a thing but it's what that thing represents and could potentially be that really bothers me. Don't think of this thread as JUST a problem with either cost, p2w, anger at having a paid option of a free thing, or have vs have-not. It's not one or the other of any of those things.
It's all of them, all at once and so much more.
We don't notice because it's a price that people are fulfilling in small amounts here and there but how much longer until that's not the case? If you took all the costs of this game, all the things people legitimately voice out about and made suggestions on better alternatives and ways to make money, if you took all of that and made it so everyone could clearly see the whole thing, who would play this game?
No one.
Not that any one person wouldn't be able to stand all that or pay the costs, that exactly what "whales" do. But online gaming is like being a heavy set person on a bed of very long and sharp nails. It's so evenly distributed that people don't notice all the negative things. But we have nails shrinking, nails leaving, and other nails growing longer. The nails growing, keep telling the nails shrinking to be quiet because they can't see the problem or can and are just okay with it.
Pay'Hadar might not be an issue in and of itself, or at all to some people, but I just want to gauge just how far this is going to go and how well people are going to take even more escalation to a game that probably can't handle a whole lot more negative escalation.
Pay'Hadar might not be an issue in and of itself, or at all to some people, but I just want to gauge just how far this is going to go and how well people are going to take even more escalation to a game that probably can't handle a whole lot more negative escalation.
I think there's only a point for escalation if the Vanguard Jem'Hadar ultimately only represent a trait advantage, not a premium species with more narrative and customization potential. And that comes down to whether they have any additional customization options. If not, then that's a problem (because it's spending what may be significant dev resources [we've been told in the past that new species are difficult to put together on the back end] on something that's functionally identical to offering a upgraded trait box, exclusive to Jem'Hadar, that's included with the bundles. It's inefficient and adds nothing besides a small premium.) And it's a real problem if expansion 5 does the same thing (wasting resources on a redundant species option to emulate premium trait boxes.)
So yeah, it's a discussion worth having (though I would avoid giving in too much to the raw emotion, as we're not yet certain that Vanguard Jem'Hadar will in fact be an issue come June (either due to us not knowing all the facts now or Cryptic changing some aspect of the Van'Hadar based on feedback.)
Did we have $100 ship packs at launch? Did we even have $30 ships? Look at the progression of lockboxes, both here and in other Cryptic games like Champions online. They've slowly been evolving as well. Ships, cosmetics, then consoles, then traits and masteries. Right now, it's more mix and match than pay to win but little by little it creeps in.
Well at launch STO had a subscription model. When it went F2P there were $25 ships. Calculating for inflation that would currently be $27.17. Add dev time costs for ship mastery traits and specialization mechanics (in design and art) and a $30 c-store ship is quite reasonable. Plus the revamps offer additional customization parts and skin types.
If you took all the costs of this game, all the things people legitimately voice out about and made suggestions on better alternatives and ways to make money, if you took all of that and made it so everyone could clearly see the whole thing, who would play this game?
Anyone who plays it now. What you describe is what new players to the game encounter when they first hop into the game. They see all the costs and they haven't been acclimated to slow changes over time. Demonstrably, STO is able to justify its business model regardless of your experience with the game. There aren't a whole lot of lob-sided costs that've been added either. Service pricing has remained largely fix, content offered in the lobi store and lock boxes weren't available through other means prior to their introduction (it's new content, not just a new fee), and they've been met with many new free options as well through events and continual improvements to mission rewards (offsetting pressure from promoted content.) How you pay for swag is up to you and is calculated (ultimately) on the old formula of time, money, or time-and-money.
The setup is pretty much okay, and I don't see there being an economic problem here except if Victory is Life and upcoming expansions rest on selling new species exclusively on their traits (it doesn't seem viable, lots of effort for very little gain.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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Instead of enhanced traits tied to species, why not bundle additional traits besides a mere one-up that are targeted at new characters?
Pretty sure they've done this already Genetic Resequencers anyone? Or did you mean an account unlock in Z-store?
Well I meant put the premium traits with starter kits and bundles. We have a lot of choice when it comes to the lock boxes but to use those traits on a brand new character you need an established character (with sufficient EC) and knowledge of those abilities. They aren't being marketed to newcomers, as is the case with Vanguard Jem'Hadar.
What I'm suggesting is put the merchandise in the window rather than keeping it on the back shelf. Put more traits in bundles, they pair well with making a new character.
Oi...you can buy extra traits now for new alts but you have to seek that out yourself and know exactly where to look. They're not presented as a starter kits.
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Oi...you can buy additional traits now for new alts but you have to seek that out yourself, knowing exactly where to look, and package them accordingly. They're not presented as a starter kit.
Realistically.... would a new player have any idea what to do with such an option anyways?
Realistically.... would a new player have any idea what to do with such an option anyways?
Sure, they're making that call with Victory is Life and Vanguard Jem'Hadar. They have additional traits that new players may not appreciate the full significance of (or lack there of.) Ditto for anything contained in a starter bundle or low-hanging price range (ex. low-tier ships with premium consoles.) Newbies are very frequently sold additional content which they might not appreciate in full from the get go. You definitely design around that (they're learning, so don't include abilities that relies on specific synergy and a deep understanding of game mechanics) but you still do it.
Besides, including traits with expansion bundles also gives established players more to work with or simply some novelty to try out. It's just a way of adding more to an area of character development that hasn't been (IMO) thoroughly explored in content bundles.
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The setup is pretty much okay, and I don't see there being an economic problem here except if Victory is Life and upcoming expansions rest on selling new species exclusively on their traits (it doesn't seem viable, lots of effort for very little gain.)
Admittedly, I do tend to get a little too involved when posting but my points are still valid, if a little too ranty. I understand that things have changed, both in directions of content, dev teams, and income models but that doesn't negate that some of the practices are a little more predatory than should really be, especially in a Star Trek game. There are plenty of ways to make money and there are plenty of great suggestions by fans on how to collect their money. There are even great suggestions on how to make the current C-store items better buys. Nobody is arguing that Cryptic needs to earn money, it's entirely the how that has people bothered. As with the bed of nails analogy, i think you missed the point. Yes, anyone has access to any of the transactions and ways to pay for things in-game, it's a cost that is deferred over the entire player base. But if a single person was asked to make all of them, as an individual, this game becomes "not worth it" to a lot of people. Granted, some people have considerably more disposable income will and do pay for everything they can ("Whales") but Cryptic will often cater to those people, over the community as a whole. That's where the money is and cryptic is all about money > Community. Not a stab at the employees, those guys love the fans and community but they also don't get to run the game as they would like. The costs, being spread over the whole of the player base, isn't so bad since it's spread out over so many people. With the whales being the top of the food chain, so to speak, the escalation is increasing that weight on all players. While the whales on top get fat and happy, it's slowly crushing those players with less to give on the bottom. How many people have already left the game due to this?
Granted, "How worth it" is entirely subjective to each person but the fact remains that the more costs escalate vs content quality/quantity, more people leave the game. Even without that, we easily lose more people to other games that are newer and shinier, or less played out. We don't even know how much of the money made on the game actually goes back into the game. Bringing in the VIL expansion is a phenomenal way to bring more interest to the game, but is it really enough to bring money back into the game? is this kind of model something that brings in steady income or just a quick burst for each expansion? Sustained dps vs burst dps, where is a better balance?
With the way Cryptic does things, i'm really not expecting much out of them and what i do expect, is greed and unfinished products. I am, admittedly, biased against them for that. Having a paid version of something that is statistically better than a free version just lets things hit that next step in the escalation point. A small step towards the edge of a cliff, is still a step towards the edge of a cliff. With how they ran Champions online into the ground, i'm surprised STO is doing as well as it is. I'm glad we're able to get actors from the shows in, rather than just the terrible audio clips, like in the TOS stuff but it just seems like we're not getting enough of the quality for how much people are putting in to the game, financially. More so, when there are so many better ways to increase the likely hood of people spending money in your game.
Even, Star Wars: The Old Republic, is experimenting with how they do lockboxes. More so, due to the EA debacle but still, it's a step in the better direction. They're experimenting with direct sales over predatory practices. They have a lock box that increases probable rewards, the more you open. Playing around with that, i managed to get several very good items and sets. Here, for the same amount of money, i would have just a bunch of lame boosts, some low level rewards, and a handful of lobi. If Cryptic does go the route of pushing species like they do ships, i can only see a much larger portion of the player base leaving because it's not long after that they would start adding in the t6 species, the fleet species, the t5-u species, the t6-fleet species, and eventually, even though they said it wouldn't happen, the t7 species.
Comments
I like this game. I have enough disposable cash to purchase some pretties and get a slightly better ship and race. This helps fund further development and content for all players including those who are totally f2p. If cryptic hadnt included a free kemhadar variant then i would agree but they have.....so pay if you wish or dont. Play the game or dont.
The internet mentality of criticising a company for charging for a product they sell is so incredibly small minded and daft. If they dont make a profit this game wont exist in any shape or form. Grow up.
Wholeheartedly agree with that. Without paying Cryptic for things, we won't see anything amazing anymore. Wish they'd make awesome hairstyles for the Zen Store, I'd totally pay for that, too.
The console is exactly what I was referring to when I said gear. Sure, non-gamble ships can get the job done, but my point was that lockboxes don't follow the cosmetic only kind of deal that these things gamble systems should be limited to.
Question: who here is actually complaining about the basic principles of a F2P model (ie. that Vanguard Jem'Hadar, Cardassians, and all other premium species should be free) as opposed to the specific deficiencies of one premium species option as compared to other premium species options (ie. there should be more to Vanguard Jem'Hadar besides a simple stat advantage, it's not making best use of the opportunity)?
You guys are at least three posts removed from replying to anyone in the "opposing camp." You may want to double back to be sure you're on a relevant track.
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So, why is this a problem?
I intend to make a Jem'Hadar character and have fun with it. And I really don't care about the difference between the two.
Because I'll get to play STO as a Jem'Hadar.
I'm not going to feel cheated or ripped off or disrepsected or any of that childish nonsense if it turns out one is a little bit better than the other one. Because it isn't relevant to why I play STO. And I do not have a problem with Cryptic making a little coin off an addon.
It's not, no one is saying that the basic fact of a premium Jem'Hadar species is in any way morally reprehensible. Read the thread, what started this tangent of yours and several others is general prognostication rather than a specific comment directed at specific individuals. It's not relevant.
The issue that me and several others have laid out is simply that the second premium Jem'Hadar species does not appear to have the qualities of a premium species that all but one, from a certain faction's point of view, contain. There is feedback to give in saying "Hey, can there be additional customization options to build in setting and narrative a greater distinction than just one or two traits, because over the long term the pricing and content development of a separate playable unlock for something offered in a lock box (ie. unique traits) doesn't seem to be the best use of the opportunity or resources. More can be done and in some small and apparently feasible ways."
(Seriously, why go through the trouble of coding a new species on the back end [which we know is labor intensive] if the desire is only to add a new trait? That could be added as an item in the VIL content bundles, which would be interesting way of building up the "genetic toolkit" of Jem'Hadar soldiers if more are added.)
Are we clear now? If you don't care what the difference is, great. It's not something anyone needs to care about (including Cryptic, this is just feedback). But, then why extend that to not caring about what the two sides are in an discussion? That's a recipe for not at all good things. There are things we can talk about, but if what's wanted is self-affirmation over an other who may not exist then this thread really doesn't have a purpose.
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Yeah, you're probably right, sorry
Lock Box ships aren't 'cosmetic only,' that's obviously true. But they aren't also obscenely powerful. Even the best of the Lock Box ships are in line with ships you can just buy off the C-Store as an account unlock. My main flies a Vengeance, a ship most people consider to be one of the 'top dog' ships for Fed. It's a great ship, but doesn't really out perform my Odyssey.
The issue is that Pay to Win games are often too difficult to play using only assets accrued in game. STO is definitely not like that, maybe paid items aren't cosmetic only, but that doesn't make them P2W either.
I am as cynical as anyone when it comes to the way Crytpic has managed this game in recent years. I make no secret of the fact that they do a lot of things that I don't like and I often question their business practices, but even I have to admit that STO is extremely generous when it comes to free items. You can get some really nice stuff in this game without paying a dime. A Free 2 Play account can easily do anything they want in this game, even Elite Queues. Yes, it will take more effort then it would by just buying what you need.. but it's still possible.
Lock Box items are a luxury in this game.. nothing more.
Thank you for stating my point so much more succinctly than I did.
Fixed that for you. I'd hate to think that folks might have judged a moment's oversight (be careful about how much you clip off!) as resting on a misconception. That would be so unfortunate.
Anyway: serious question to the general thread, if apart from everything else (ex. the question of whether Vanguard Jem'Hadar will include any maximum slider tweaks, novel horns, or a deeper place in lore) traits as bonus starter items are now marketable (it's the mechanical feature Vanguards are being sold by at present) why not go one step further? Instead of enhanced traits tied to species, why not bundle additional traits besides a mere one-up that are targeted at new characters? I gift new alts with an ad-hoc trait bundle as is, why not sell to this? Could be an under-exploited market (now accessible thanks to an unintended step in that direction. Ie. Vanguard Jem'Hadar as far as we know them know. Make it a thing but do it through trait boxes which carry no other expectations and more general application.)
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This thread appears to be about people thinking they're going to be cheated out of something by Cryptic. I'd like to be wrong but the rampant self entitlement all throughout these forums shows me I'm probably not.
To try and get some usefulness out of this waste of electrons and time, I present the following:
When I first read about the Vanguard Jem'Hadar the thought which occurred to me was - Jem'Hadar v2.0. Or even v2.5. Since we've seen a different version in game from what was presented in DS9. It is a reasonable assumption the Dominion geneticists are constantly looking for ways to improve the quality of their primary defense force troops. And the version available in the Vanguard boxes represents the current Dominion state of the art in vat grown, ketra cell addicted footsoldiers. As such they are only around in limited quantities and are reserved for tasks which are considered vital to the continued survival and well being of the Dominion and its Founders. For most tasks, 'ordinary' Jem'Hadar will do just fine and as such will be far more numerous and also far more often encountered.
From a careful reading of the original announcement about the Vanguard boxes and the Vanguard Jem'Hadar, followed up by some thinking and research on similar game systems and recalling from personal experiences with the transition from the M1 Abrams MBT to the M1A1, I do not see how there will be that big a difference between how they play in game. At best I can forsee about a five to ten percent variance between them. Of course both types of Jem'Hadar will be crippled badly by the fact players have to use them for them to work ingame.
The cosmetic stuff is fluff. While I do see why some of the player base would want some extra customization options available to everyone, MMO's function with some amount of exclusivity to give players a percieved value to their purchase. This plays perfectly to the Human psyche's natural desire to look around and be able to say, "I'm special and the rest of you are not!" without uttering a single word.
Again from personal example, I purchased the MU Mogai off the Exchange when it became available there for one reason only: To be able to use the MU Mogai skin on my FT6 Morrigu. This was before the Admiralty system and the Infinity Lockboxes and all the other ways of acquiring MU ships. So I spent a large amount of imaginary money inside an imaginary universe to acquire an imaginary item which made my imaginary ship look different from most of the other Mogais.
Notice I said purchase. At no time ever did I expect anyone at Cryptic to give me anything. And, as the game continued, the option to purchase the MU Mogai became available in a limited fashion for others to purchase.
It is what it is and this is all it is.
I expect in the fullness of time, Cryptic will make all of the options on the Vanguard Jem'Hadar available for purchase somehow to the 'have nots'. After they have successfully created a market for these. The wailing and teeth gnashing going on all throughout this thread indicates they are succeeding in this before the damn things even come to market in the first place.
Done with this thread because I've had my say. Deeply sorry I ever decided to post here in the first place. Or anywhere else on these forums for that matter. Go on and get your last word in duncan because this what your toadies and sycophants expect. I'm most defintely not one of the "favored children" around here like you so obviously are.
Which suits me just fine.
> I haven't played any of ViL yet. But as long as I've played this game, people have been asking for playable Cardassians and playable Jem'hadar. Now, we're going to get both. With the Jem'hadar coming in two flavors.
>
> So, why is this a problem?
>
> I intend to make a Jem'Hadar character and have fun with it. And I really don't care about the difference between the two.
>
> Because I'll get to play STO as a Jem'Hadar.
>
> I'm not going to feel cheated or ripped off or disrepsected or any of that childish nonsense if it turns out one is a little bit better than the other one. Because it isn't relevant to why I play STO. And I do not have a problem with Cryptic making a little coin off an addon.
Honestly I don't even worry about race stats in this game, they are too insigifnicant an influence on the game play to care. I pick races for fluff so I'm more interested in the background of the Vanguard Jem'hadar and how they came about and why then I am in their stats.
And you can stop right there, you're ranting about people who don't exist. There's no claims of cheating at work here, just a species that isn't living up to its potential, as exemplified by other premium options (which include exclusive cosmetic unlocks, haven't been confirmed yet for Vanguards), or an alternative packaging system that isn't being explore to its own potential (ie. go further with the Vanguard idea, include more starter traits with bundles.) You may have read otherwise from commentary on this page but ultimately that's not substantiated by anything other than a single post on p.3 (author: lusanio) that went off on a spontaneous tangent about people complaining about a premium option existing at all (without quoting anyone directly). That's simply an incorrect read of the thread and those arriving new to discussion took it at face value (jiralinria graciously admitted as such, and it's not to worry because misunderstandings happen.)
Further objections of yours I'll refer to your own inner monolog, its well clear of the topic and you don't seem to be in a good place right now to have a civil discussion. Please do read the thread in full before commenting next time (it's just good practice.)
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Honestly though... what IS a premium species in STO actually? There's little more to a premium race than the main racial trait. Some get a few costume options others don't, but those are often things that don't even make sense to have linked to a specific species. For example, Orion shoulderpads and the Nausicaan cuirass armor. Yeah those aren't premium species, but the special costumes they get don't make much sense to have as species specific options.
So yes, racial traits and aesthetics are pretty much the core of what a premium race is in STO. Tril vs Joined Trill is pretty much the poster child for free vs premium here.
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Well I meant put the premium traits with starter kits and bundles. We have a lot of choice when it comes to the lock boxes but to use those traits on a brand new character you need an established character (with sufficient EC) and knowledge of those abilities. They aren't being marketed to newcomers, as is the case with Vanguard Jem'Hadar.
What I'm suggesting is put the merchandise in the window rather than keeping it on the back shelf. Put more traits in bundles, they pair well with making a new character.
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But there is a point to this thread, and that is to spark debate, which it did. Granted, we aren't always doing so as best we can but still, these things should be talked about. There are numerous points and issues here, being focused on differently by the various commentors but not a lot of people are taking that step to look at the possible whole. In any discussion online, you're going to have the farthest points on the spectrum of those who agree no matter what and those who out right hate everything about it. in between those people are a wide variety of people with their own valid points and opinions to the subject. The thing though, is that while each person is entitled to their opinion on the points they're making, this isn't just about the one thing or another. It's all of it.
There is a slight, very minuscule pay to win factor, the cost isn't great but it IS there. Yes, we don't know all the details yet. Yes, we already have things in-game already like this but with the ships. Yes, people are always going to buy it regardless and yes, we don't HAVE to pay real money for this. But each one of those things is just a part of the whole picture. if you have a car and a minor part fails, that might not be a big deal. If you have a car with a minor issue, as well as, several other problems and defects, you have a problem. Yes, that car might be running fine now but if you don't pay attention to it, if you don't DO something about it, it. will. get. worse.
EA didn't just do what they did in Battlefront because it would be a laugh. This has been a building issue because nobody was doing anything about it. Over the last few years, the kinds of things they were blatant about have been slowly escalating, of which, Cryptic is just as guilty. No, we might not have ALL of the things EA did in STO but at the same time, the escalation is still there. Did we have $100 ship packs at launch? Did we even have $30 ships? Look at the progression of lockboxes, both here and in other Cryptic games like Champions online. They've slowly been evolving as well. Ships, cosmetics, then consoles, then traits and masteries. Right now, it's more mix and match than pay to win but little by little it creeps in.
It's not just that you can pay for a better Jem'Hadar than those who don't pay (though that IS the case, regardless), but the potential future of that. It's another escalation. I, personally, don't want to see them charging for better versions of existing races because just like ships, what happens when they charge again for an even better version of that? And then again after that? But that's what they did with ships, so if people let them do that with characters as well, what comes next? They're already making us pay for upgrading weapons and gear as well, though luckily that's just in-game currencies... Except those c-store items that you get for buy things in the C-store that totally work instantly to max things out. But guess what? Now that they're raising the bar again, anyone who spent money on that can now spend money or grind again to get that slight advantage.
That's why discussions like this matter. That's why we need this kind of debate going on, not just for us but for the companies as well. Sure, people have no problem paying $20 for a character they want, but every so many months, if they're paying another $5 to keep it maxed, that $20 character is a lot more expensive that just the initial price. Once the company knows you'll pay for that, they'll add that kind of pricing to other things in game. And when everything in the game has these costs, possibly on top of those still paying an actual subscription fee, how much is a "free to play" game really costing? Throw into that the gambling mechanics and "keeping up with the johnsons" this game is very clearly taking advantage of people to make money. The thing is though, people aren't seeing that as a whole. They see an issue that affects them and voice out about it. Issues that don't bother them, they defend "because companies need money". They're not seeing all the bad things game companies are doing, all at once, to numerous other people. It you have people donating blood, another few each donating a kidney, marrow, a lung, or minor bit of tissue that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing because it's going to a good cause. But what happens if they start asking for a little bit more of each donor? That's not bad, right? Sure, you don't HAVE to but look at what it does it you DO give a little extra? Seeing how much people are willing to give, the company with a history of bad decisions and poor practices, is once again, asking for a little more from each donor, on top of the original and the previous "little bit more". What EA did was try to take all of the things all at once, so people noticed that "Hey... this isn't right." and there was a backlash for it. What Cryptic is doing is a much more reasonably paces escalation but it's still escalating.
We need to have these talks to gauge "how much is too much?" and "as a whole, how is this changing the game". It isn't until you put all these pieces together that you really see the predatory nature of the way game companies like cryptic are doing things. Do they mean to be predatory? No, of course not. There are a lot of really good people at that company just trying to make a living and work on Star Trek. But that doesn't mean they're going about making money in the best way possible. They're only doing what people allow them to do, and will only do so until things break and they have to change. If you let a child do this, what happens? Honestly? Things get really bad. It's the same with companies. Even Disney, the most child friendly company world wide is letting employees die of starvation. Why? Because no one is telling them "No, that's bad." Is it their fault directly? Of course not, but they had a hand in it. They could have easily done something but not enough people were outspoken about it. Not enough people were saying that "This is unacceptable."
Just coming online and telling people that they need to be quite because you can afford it, isn't helping them or their problems. Just because you're not in this in the same way that other people are, doesn't mean that they're not as affected by it as you or worse. The more you let Cryptic get away with the more they will gladly do so, if it means profit. What happens if Cryptic gets the license pulled? If they, much like EA, had a petition online with over 100,000 thousand signatures asking Paramount/CBS to pull the rights from them? Are we there yet? No but we're not far off. Admittedly, with this group, we could probably get that just trolling. There are enough angry people at this game and Cryptic to sign it but toss in the people signing it "just for laughs" or because they hate Cryptic enough, as a whole, to do so?
Yes, the Pay'Hadar have a very minor pay to win advantage but it's almost negligible. Yes, the price is still a very low one and could even be much lower if they sell them as an individual purchase in the store. But neither of those two individual points are the whole slew of issues being discussed here. We need these kinds of discussions.
I don't mind The Pay'Hadar for being a thing but it's what that thing represents and could potentially be that really bothers me. Don't think of this thread as JUST a problem with either cost, p2w, anger at having a paid option of a free thing, or have vs have-not. It's not one or the other of any of those things.
It's all of them, all at once and so much more.
We don't notice because it's a price that people are fulfilling in small amounts here and there but how much longer until that's not the case? If you took all the costs of this game, all the things people legitimately voice out about and made suggestions on better alternatives and ways to make money, if you took all of that and made it so everyone could clearly see the whole thing, who would play this game?
No one.
Not that any one person wouldn't be able to stand all that or pay the costs, that exactly what "whales" do. But online gaming is like being a heavy set person on a bed of very long and sharp nails. It's so evenly distributed that people don't notice all the negative things. But we have nails shrinking, nails leaving, and other nails growing longer. The nails growing, keep telling the nails shrinking to be quiet because they can't see the problem or can and are just okay with it.
Pay'Hadar might not be an issue in and of itself, or at all to some people, but I just want to gauge just how far this is going to go and how well people are going to take even more escalation to a game that probably can't handle a whole lot more negative escalation.
I think there's only a point for escalation if the Vanguard Jem'Hadar ultimately only represent a trait advantage, not a premium species with more narrative and customization potential. And that comes down to whether they have any additional customization options. If not, then that's a problem (because it's spending what may be significant dev resources [we've been told in the past that new species are difficult to put together on the back end] on something that's functionally identical to offering a upgraded trait box, exclusive to Jem'Hadar, that's included with the bundles. It's inefficient and adds nothing besides a small premium.) And it's a real problem if expansion 5 does the same thing (wasting resources on a redundant species option to emulate premium trait boxes.)
So yeah, it's a discussion worth having (though I would avoid giving in too much to the raw emotion, as we're not yet certain that Vanguard Jem'Hadar will in fact be an issue come June (either due to us not knowing all the facts now or Cryptic changing some aspect of the Van'Hadar based on feedback.)
Well at launch STO had a subscription model. When it went F2P there were $25 ships. Calculating for inflation that would currently be $27.17. Add dev time costs for ship mastery traits and specialization mechanics (in design and art) and a $30 c-store ship is quite reasonable. Plus the revamps offer additional customization parts and skin types.
Anyone who plays it now. What you describe is what new players to the game encounter when they first hop into the game. They see all the costs and they haven't been acclimated to slow changes over time. Demonstrably, STO is able to justify its business model regardless of your experience with the game. There aren't a whole lot of lob-sided costs that've been added either. Service pricing has remained largely fix, content offered in the lobi store and lock boxes weren't available through other means prior to their introduction (it's new content, not just a new fee), and they've been met with many new free options as well through events and continual improvements to mission rewards (offsetting pressure from promoted content.) How you pay for swag is up to you and is calculated (ultimately) on the old formula of time, money, or time-and-money.
The setup is pretty much okay, and I don't see there being an economic problem here except if Victory is Life and upcoming expansions rest on selling new species exclusively on their traits (it doesn't seem viable, lots of effort for very little gain.)
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Oi...you can buy extra traits now for new alts but you have to seek that out yourself and know exactly where to look. They're not presented as a starter kits.
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Sure, they're making that call with Victory is Life and Vanguard Jem'Hadar. They have additional traits that new players may not appreciate the full significance of (or lack there of.) Ditto for anything contained in a starter bundle or low-hanging price range (ex. low-tier ships with premium consoles.) Newbies are very frequently sold additional content which they might not appreciate in full from the get go. You definitely design around that (they're learning, so don't include abilities that relies on specific synergy and a deep understanding of game mechanics) but you still do it.
Besides, including traits with expansion bundles also gives established players more to work with or simply some novelty to try out. It's just a way of adding more to an area of character development that hasn't been (IMO) thoroughly explored in content bundles.
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Admittedly, I do tend to get a little too involved when posting but my points are still valid, if a little too ranty. I understand that things have changed, both in directions of content, dev teams, and income models but that doesn't negate that some of the practices are a little more predatory than should really be, especially in a Star Trek game. There are plenty of ways to make money and there are plenty of great suggestions by fans on how to collect their money. There are even great suggestions on how to make the current C-store items better buys. Nobody is arguing that Cryptic needs to earn money, it's entirely the how that has people bothered. As with the bed of nails analogy, i think you missed the point. Yes, anyone has access to any of the transactions and ways to pay for things in-game, it's a cost that is deferred over the entire player base. But if a single person was asked to make all of them, as an individual, this game becomes "not worth it" to a lot of people. Granted, some people have considerably more disposable income will and do pay for everything they can ("Whales") but Cryptic will often cater to those people, over the community as a whole. That's where the money is and cryptic is all about money > Community. Not a stab at the employees, those guys love the fans and community but they also don't get to run the game as they would like. The costs, being spread over the whole of the player base, isn't so bad since it's spread out over so many people. With the whales being the top of the food chain, so to speak, the escalation is increasing that weight on all players. While the whales on top get fat and happy, it's slowly crushing those players with less to give on the bottom. How many people have already left the game due to this?
Granted, "How worth it" is entirely subjective to each person but the fact remains that the more costs escalate vs content quality/quantity, more people leave the game. Even without that, we easily lose more people to other games that are newer and shinier, or less played out. We don't even know how much of the money made on the game actually goes back into the game. Bringing in the VIL expansion is a phenomenal way to bring more interest to the game, but is it really enough to bring money back into the game? is this kind of model something that brings in steady income or just a quick burst for each expansion? Sustained dps vs burst dps, where is a better balance?
With the way Cryptic does things, i'm really not expecting much out of them and what i do expect, is greed and unfinished products. I am, admittedly, biased against them for that. Having a paid version of something that is statistically better than a free version just lets things hit that next step in the escalation point. A small step towards the edge of a cliff, is still a step towards the edge of a cliff. With how they ran Champions online into the ground, i'm surprised STO is doing as well as it is. I'm glad we're able to get actors from the shows in, rather than just the terrible audio clips, like in the TOS stuff but it just seems like we're not getting enough of the quality for how much people are putting in to the game, financially. More so, when there are so many better ways to increase the likely hood of people spending money in your game.
Even, Star Wars: The Old Republic, is experimenting with how they do lockboxes. More so, due to the EA debacle but still, it's a step in the better direction. They're experimenting with direct sales over predatory practices. They have a lock box that increases probable rewards, the more you open. Playing around with that, i managed to get several very good items and sets. Here, for the same amount of money, i would have just a bunch of lame boosts, some low level rewards, and a handful of lobi. If Cryptic does go the route of pushing species like they do ships, i can only see a much larger portion of the player base leaving because it's not long after that they would start adding in the t6 species, the fleet species, the t5-u species, the t6-fleet species, and eventually, even though they said it wouldn't happen, the t7 species.