We already have Exploration 2.0, it's called mini-games.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Fair enough. But that doesn't mean the exploration itself wouldn't be free. Which was my original point. There are multiple ways for Cryptic to "make money" on something. So not EVERYTHING has be to thrown in the C-store/Lockboxes to justify development costs.
They have to recoup their cost somehow. F2P means not everyone is paying a sub fee, which doesn't cover the development time like it used to.
You could say the same about each and every episode-mission they create. It still works out for them, because such content works like a commercial for stuff you can buy, such as ships, character slots, bank slots, etc.
Was basically what I was trying to say. Though maybe I could have phrased it better. The original comment I quoted made it sound like Explorations could never happen unless it could be in the C-Store. But there are plenty of things in this game that aren't directly purchasable and some are even free. So it isn't like it HAS to be in the C-Store to get made. Obviously something will have to be done to recoup the costs, but one can still expect the content itself to be free.
This is of course, all assuming such content is even possible, which I still have my doubts on, but that was all I was trying to say.
We already have Exploration 2.0, it's called mini-games.
Dear GOD but I loathe and despise mini-games, both in theory and in practice. Worst thing since those ^%$#@&* Quick Time Events in the Tomb Raider series.
The old system also created a few... unplayable scenarios. Every one in a while you'd get a ground mission where you have to kill 5 groups... and one spawns UNDERGROUND.
Curious. Back in the days i played literally hundreds of cluster missions. I never EVER encountered that bug lol.
Agree that missions were completely pointless and designed by a monkey but at least it was something. You could play cluster missions to relax, or maybe ot just do something else, or simply to admire the scenario. Because there were really beautiful planets and landscapes in those clusters, sigh.
I've said it before, and now again, I miss those cluster's. For all their faults, they were the closest we had to "Trek like" game play. A great arena for using low grade ships and equipment.
Foundry as replacement to an exploration system is a lame excuse. Foundry missions can be great, but very, very few of them even try to simulate exploration in the "going to the unknown" sense.
Is that so?
Why would the players themselves not create exploration missions, if that's what so strongly desired?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Foundry as replacement to an exploration system is a lame excuse. Foundry missions can be great, but very, very few of them even try to simulate exploration in the "going to the unknown" sense.
Is that so?
Why would the players themselves not create exploration missions, if that's what so strongly desired?
Yeah, duplicates of exploration cluster missions are relatively easy since it's only one or two maps, and not a lot of dialog to write.
I've said it before, and now again, I miss those cluster's. For all their faults, they were the closest we had to "Trek like" game play. A great arena for using low grade ships and equipment.
Strange. I don't recall ever seeing a Trek episode where <insert captain of your choice> beams down to a random planet, shoots a few random aliens that were just standing around doing nothing in the middle of nowhere, points a tricorder at a few random rocks and then roll end credits.
That is to say, I never saw the star cluster missions as anything remotely "Trek like."
Based upon the way 'Tour the Galaxy' works (or anything for that matter) where you navigate in Sector Space, click on a destination and end up going in the wrong direction, I wouldn't trust 'Exploration' being done correctly. I guess you could consider it exploration if you end up someplace you weren't going to.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
What interests me about an "Exploration system" is the option to level captains with some individual, core gameplay content that does NOT make them the Hero Of The Story. The Foundry cannot do that, some mission generator, however, could.
What purpose does that serve, other than giving you another way to level up in the game that doesn't involve playing through the story?
Star Trek Online is all about an MMORPG. the RPG part being that you're playing a character through the main story. The story ends up having to involve you as the hero.
Also, we used to have a mission generator a la the old exploration system. However, it eventually got repetitive and for the most part, most of them didn't make sense, which is why they removed it prior to Delta Rising's release. This repetitiveness is what the developers want to avoid with the next exploration system, which is partially why it's taking so long for them to implement. Exploration should not give you the sense of Déjà vu.
I've said it before, and now again, I miss those cluster's. For all their faults, they were the closest we had to "Trek like" game play. A great arena for using low grade ships and equipment.
Strange. I don't recall ever seeing a Trek episode where <insert captain of your choice> beams down to a random planet, shoots a few random aliens that were just standing around doing nothing in the middle of nowhere, points a tricorder at a few random rocks and then roll end credits.
That is to say, I never saw the star cluster missions as anything remotely "Trek like."
I did say "closest to". The point being it was'nt continual bloodshed. A little RP'ing, and they worked quite nicely.
I liked Exploration. It was the kind of open-ended, non story bound gameplay that lets me play games for years with no end in sight, I still play UFO, Pirates! or Total War games because of the randomness involved. I had a lot of ideas to improve it, sure, but I would like to have it back.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The old exploration, "scan five things/shoot five groups" was not exploration. This notion that Star Trek is all about eploration is short sighted as well. It appears people wanting 'real' exploration in STO are also the same people who complain loudest about puzzles and riddles in the game. To me, exploration would be something like the old PC game Myst. I get plopped down in the middle of a map with no idea at all of what I am supposed to do or where I am supposed to go. With zero hints or clues. So that I have to figure out things for myself.
They put something like this in STO, which is what a lot of people say they want, and these forums will fill to the brim with, "It's too hard! You Suck! I hates your game! Foevah!" threads faster than I can whistle Dixie.
Somebody upthread posted something about linking Foundry missions to some sort of exploration. This is aleady ingame, isn't it? With the Top Three Foundry Missions popping up as a menu whenever you approach a star system?
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Honestly as a core concept the exploration system was perfectly "fine". what it needed was just a little bit of refining and added complexity/variety. And today the doff and R&D system could easily add an additional layer to that system, by having missions that require transporting up samples for analysis etc.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Let's be honest, as people have mentioned, the old Cluster/Exploration system was basically 3-4 semi-random planet maps, with 2 base missions, kill/scan, and no actual variety whatsoever.
That said, I actually enjoyed doing a few of those because the planet maps were weird and if you didn't do too many of them you could ignore the sameness. Sadly, even doing small numbers of them led to the issues where there were maps with holes you could fall into and not get out of, objectives you couldn't reach/didn't show up on scan, etc.
In no way were they 'open ended random content generation'. At least, not with any level of quality that you would actually repeat. It was more of a "I'm bored and I don't know what to do next, guess I will fly to an exploration cluster until something else occurs to me". The best that could be said for it was that you could sort of convince yourself you were 'flying into the unknown' to 'do something new'.
I was disappointed when Exploration went away, along with many others. That said, I don't actually miss it a bit after the first month or two... I found other things to do when I was bored.
Fly to any star in space and you get a list of pop-up, decently ranked Foundry missions. That is far more 'open ended content generator' than Clusters ever were.
> > How can that be possible? I mean, if you end up someplace then you were in fact going to there. You may not have intended to, or even known that's where you were going, but if you ended up there then by definition you were in fact going there. :P
That sounds like something Norman would have said in 'I, Mudd'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The old exploration, "scan five things/shoot five groups" was not exploration. This notion that Star Trek is all about eploration is short sighted as well. It appears people wanting 'real' exploration in STO are also the same people who complain loudest about puzzles and riddles in the game. To me, exploration would be something like the old PC game Myst. I get plopped down in the middle of a map with no idea at all of what I am supposed to do or where I am supposed to go. With zero hints or clues. So that I have to figure out things for myself.
They put something like this in STO, which is what a lot of people say they want, and these forums will fill to the brim with, "It's too hard! You Suck! I hates your game! Foevah!" threads faster than I can whistle Dixie.
Somebody upthread posted something about linking Foundry missions to some sort of exploration. This is aleady ingame, isn't it? With the Top Three Foundry Missions popping up as a menu whenever you approach a star system?
That's semantics. It's called "Exploration" the same way why the ship card game is called "Admiralty". It's a Star Trek term applied to a basic game mode. Literal exploration would mean having procedurally generated content with us mapping things that remain for later to revisit. What we had though was a mix of random basic missions revolving around combat and/or diplomacy, with nobody to guide you through it, you got out of it what you brought with you so to say.
Try to look at it from the point of view of a game like Masters of Orion. Every time you start a new game the game map is randomly generated, you will never get "new" things as you know all the tiles it can have but still every game is different. What we had in STO was getting a random mission from a set and you didn't know what you were getting, so you knew what to do but you couldn't really prepare for what was to come. That could qualify as a sense of exploration.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Man I miss the exploration system..Sure it had its share of repetitiveness but still it wasnt driven by a story arc and could be done at ones liesure..My opinion would be to take inspiration from the series and have exploritory missions where all factors come into play like exploration, diplomacy, first contact, tactical, rescue but all randomly occuring in no particular order..NOT go here kill a bunch of things or go here scan a bunch of things..
Some people clearly have their nostalgia glasses on when talking about the "exploration" system. Some of the descriptions by the "I miss it" -crowd have little basis in reality.
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yeah so:
Was basically what I was trying to say. Though maybe I could have phrased it better. The original comment I quoted made it sound like Explorations could never happen unless it could be in the C-Store. But there are plenty of things in this game that aren't directly purchasable and some are even free. So it isn't like it HAS to be in the C-Store to get made. Obviously something will have to be done to recoup the costs, but one can still expect the content itself to be free.
This is of course, all assuming such content is even possible, which I still have my doubts on, but that was all I was trying to say.
Dear GOD but I loathe and despise mini-games, both in theory and in practice. Worst thing since those ^%$#@&* Quick Time Events in the Tomb Raider series.
My character Tsin'xing
BCW
Why would the players themselves not create exploration missions, if that's what so strongly desired?
My character Tsin'xing
That is to say, I never saw the star cluster missions as anything remotely "Trek like."
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
What purpose does that serve, other than giving you another way to level up in the game that doesn't involve playing through the story?
Star Trek Online is all about an MMORPG. the RPG part being that you're playing a character through the main story. The story ends up having to involve you as the hero.
Also, we used to have a mission generator a la the old exploration system. However, it eventually got repetitive and for the most part, most of them didn't make sense, which is why they removed it prior to Delta Rising's release. This repetitiveness is what the developers want to avoid with the next exploration system, which is partially why it's taking so long for them to implement. Exploration should not give you the sense of Déjà vu.
I did say "closest to". The point being it was'nt continual bloodshed. A little RP'ing, and they worked quite nicely.
BCW
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They put something like this in STO, which is what a lot of people say they want, and these forums will fill to the brim with, "It's too hard! You Suck! I hates your game! Foevah!" threads faster than I can whistle Dixie.
Somebody upthread posted something about linking Foundry missions to some sort of exploration. This is aleady ingame, isn't it? With the Top Three Foundry Missions popping up as a menu whenever you approach a star system?
That said, I actually enjoyed doing a few of those because the planet maps were weird and if you didn't do too many of them you could ignore the sameness. Sadly, even doing small numbers of them led to the issues where there were maps with holes you could fall into and not get out of, objectives you couldn't reach/didn't show up on scan, etc.
In no way were they 'open ended random content generation'. At least, not with any level of quality that you would actually repeat. It was more of a "I'm bored and I don't know what to do next, guess I will fly to an exploration cluster until something else occurs to me". The best that could be said for it was that you could sort of convince yourself you were 'flying into the unknown' to 'do something new'.
I was disappointed when Exploration went away, along with many others. That said, I don't actually miss it a bit after the first month or two... I found other things to do when I was bored.
Fly to any star in space and you get a list of pop-up, decently ranked Foundry missions. That is far more 'open ended content generator' than Clusters ever were.
I would go to D'kel Cluster just to locate THAT mission. That was where I found it popped up the most. LOL!
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
>
> How can that be possible? I mean, if you end up someplace then you were in fact going to there. You may not have intended to, or even known that's where you were going, but if you ended up there then by definition you were in fact going there. :P
That sounds like something Norman would have said in 'I, Mudd'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's semantics. It's called "Exploration" the same way why the ship card game is called "Admiralty". It's a Star Trek term applied to a basic game mode. Literal exploration would mean having procedurally generated content with us mapping things that remain for later to revisit. What we had though was a mix of random basic missions revolving around combat and/or diplomacy, with nobody to guide you through it, you got out of it what you brought with you so to say.
Try to look at it from the point of view of a game like Masters of Orion. Every time you start a new game the game map is randomly generated, you will never get "new" things as you know all the tiles it can have but still every game is different. What we had in STO was getting a random mission from a set and you didn't know what you were getting, so you knew what to do but you couldn't really prepare for what was to come. That could qualify as a sense of exploration.
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