> @sophlogimo said:
> baddmoonrizin wrote: »
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> sophlogimo wrote: »
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> That's not how this would turn out in Germany, no one, no person or agency of office here, would gain any money. This is truly about the concern for the minors.
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> That may be true, but I tend to be more cynical about government, hence my opinion.
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> Well, when the money just isn't there, your opinion is demonstratably false.
So you have personally ensured that every politician involved is clean and not being bribed, or otherwise corrupted? I doubt it.
No, what is relevant here is that there are no politicians involved. This is a decision up to public officers / clerks, applying existing laws.
There might later be politicians that want to get involved and decide they don't like the outcome of the process and think the law need to be adjusted, but that is not what it's currently about.
But no answer has been given, save to blindly ignore the fact that all of those are exactly parallel to the argument being presented in favor of considering STO lockboxes as "gambling"
Considering that the study is apparantly about the way companies get their money from customers (and that a small number of customers bring them most of the money), I could see why something like Kinder Eggs simly does not qualify - because they get most of their revenue from customers that just buy for consumption, with the egg content as added bonus, instead of most of the revenue being from a small clientele that might be addicted and/or avid collectors.
Also, when it comes to protection of children - it's rather hard to actually send hundreds of €uros on Kinder Eggs, since that would require buying them in package sizes and numbers not typically available, and impractical for children to transport. even opening them and scannign their contents takes notable amount of time.
However, buying ten 10-Master Key packages and double clicking on a 100 lockboxes is extremely fast. The money, however, is just as gone as if you had driven with your parent or alone on your bike or on a bus to the two nearest supermarkets to buy their remaining Kinder Egg palletes and ignore the raised eyebrows of the cashier (and possibly your parent.)
And of course, we don't know what they were looking at specifically. Maybe it was actually mobile games that were in their focus, where spending money might be even simpler than in STO. I dunno, I don't do mobile games.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
However, buying ten 10-Master Key packages and double clicking on a 100 lockboxes is extremely fast. The money, however, is just as gone as if you had driven with your parent or alone on your bike or on a bus to the two nearest supermarkets to buy their remaining Kinder Egg palletes and ignore the raised eyebrows of the cashier (and possibly your parent.)
Are German children typically being given free access to credit cards by their parents? If so, why exactly is this the responsibility of Cryptic, or any other online corporation? Because credit cards (whose possession is often, I'm tempted to say generally, taken as evidence that the possessor is an adult) are the only way to buy Zen.
For that matter, where's the evidence that Zen is spent only on keys? Heck, I've ground up thousands of Zen, but the only keys I've ever purchased have been for EC on the Exchange. (I did break down and pull out the ol' debit card when Agents of Yesterday came out, because I wanted those sweet, sweet TOS-style ships to level in.) If I bought Zen, it would be with the intention of purchasing either costumes- pardon me, uniforms, or new starships to play in. (Then again, I'm also aware that the ship is just space clothes - ask around, there's probably still someone around who remembers going on that Undine PvE run with Grunt and his Risian cruiser, the RXS Latinum Princess. Nobody can get any real performance out of a Risian Love Boat, right? Especially if they haven't tuned all the gear just right? Yeah, not really. Seven beam banks, a mine launcher, and BFAW cover a multitude of sins. Ship tiers being equal, it's the pilot that matters, not the ship.)
Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
Then youd have to go back to the pay 2 play model, not that Id care, and Id actually approve...Id expect to see a lot of whiners leave...which all in all would be a good thing. F2P has always brought the lowest common denominator to games.
As has been said before, other things are considered "gambling" as well. Being considered "gambling" does not necessarily mean being considered "dangerous" or "illegal" here, however. It is important to understand that distinction.
What can (not must) make these a problem is the possible addictivity of the gamble and the amount and speed of money being paid by customers. So indeed, if a noticeable number of people start going into debt, paying hundreds of euros a week for Kinder eggs to get their smurf figurine, it may easily get controlled.
Things like Kinder Eggs, Cracker Jacks, prizes in cereal boxes and trading cards have been around for decades (if not longer). Why has there been little to nothing done about controlling them? The principal of how prizes are rewarded is exactly the same as lootboxes.
As for the second half of your statement, I absolutely fail to understand its connection to this discussion. For starters, there isn't a complaint at work here. There are also no disgruntled STO or other lockboxy game players involved in this at all.
I never said there were any disgruntled players in this thread. I just find it interesting that there is no public outcry for other products which work exactly the same way and are specifically marketed toward children. Seems to me this latest case has little to do with protecting children and more about some disgruntled folk out there (not on these forums or in this thread) who cannot afford something they want in a lockbox due to players setting high prices.
My 2 cents: This has nothing to do with protecting children, as children don't see this sort of thing as gambling. To them it's more like Christmas. "What did I get this time?" Also, children don't have the resources to sink into it on a massive scale. Protecting children is an excuse. This is about adults, who cannot manage themselves, and seem more than happy to allow a government, any government, to do it for them. (To be fair, I'm not singling out Germany, as I am well aware that this topic has broader implications beyond their borders.) If a government, any government, takes any action on this, it will be so they can get money from it for themselves in some fashion.
Its got nothing to do with either Adults who cant control themselves, or children. Both are excuses.
Its about money, plain and simple. Loot/Lock box sales arent being taxed by the government. In the U.S., all forms of legal gambling are taxed, and the revenue is enormous...with the TRIBBLE whining of EA players about the SW lootboxes, the govenment finally noticed how much money these things bring in...and now they want their cut...
Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
Then youd have to go back to the pay 2 play model, not that Id care, and Id actually approve...Id expect to see a lot of whiners leave...which all in all would be a good thing. F2P has always brought the lowest common denominator to games.
I'd honestly prefer that, you seem to get better game play/bug fixes and less pointless shiny things.
Actually the result would be the end of this game. It was already proven that this game cannot survive on subscriptions.
I honestly don't think that would be a bad thing. The game isn't going to have an expansion as big as Legacy of Romulus was last I heard. What new content that does come out is in a size that you really can't pace yourself at because most times it's a single episode or STF instance tied to a new reputation which gets devoured quickly followed by burnout.
Throw on top of that a glut of new ships with little new content to fly them in and you can burn out even quicker by grinding out gear/traits for said ships in existing content. There's also other factors I think impacting this but they've been hashed around before and could derail things in this topic.
> @nimbull said:
> gothkid1972 wrote: »
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> nimbull wrote: »
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> Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing lockboxes go the way of the dinosaurs even if it means some games have to go. MMOs were more enjoyable when they didn't have the lockbox setup. Especially ones that tie power creep to their lock box systems instead of actual progression game play that keeps a story moving forward.
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> Then youd have to go back to the pay 2 play model, not that Id care, and Id actually approve...Id expect to see a lot of whiners leave...which all in all would be a good thing. F2P has always brought the lowest common denominator to games.
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> I'd honestly prefer that, you seem to get better game play/bug fixes and less pointless shiny things.
> azrael605 wrote: »
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> Actually the result would be the end of this game. It was already proven that this game cannot survive on subscriptions.
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> I honestly don't think that would be a bad thing. The game isn't going to have an expansion as big as Legacy of Romulus was last I heard. What new content that does come out is in a size that you really can't pace yourself at because most times it's a single episode or STF instance tied to a new reputation which gets devoured quickly followed by burnout.
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> Throw on top of that a glut of new ships with little new content to fly them in and you can burn out even quicker by grinding out gear/traits for said ships in existing content. There's also other factors I think impacting this but they've been hashed around before and could derail things in this topic.
That may be your opinion but as a player who has been here for 7 years I disagree with absokutely everything you said. There is no "glut of ships with no content to fly them in" I have never "burned out" on any aspect of this game whatsoever, and I absolutely do not want this game to close. I'd suggest if you honestly want the game to close thats a sign you need to move on.
I never said I wanted it to close, I just said at this point I don't think it'd be a bad thing. Between the empty queues for a lot of STFS, bugs, and things I mentioned I just don't see this game as being in a healthy state.
Seriously, everyone in this thread can read the German original source - there is Google translate and it works fair enough.
I consider Google Translate and its ilk to be the kind of software toy you play with just for laughs by "translating" things you can read properly yourself (and thus appreciate all the silly errors it makes). Certainly not anything to be relied on in a serious debate.
Doubtful this will happen as lobbyists have more power than the politicians here in the US. At worst, I can see a new "warning label" (ala the PMRC of years ago) being added.
Also, I'm fairly certain either the Terms of Service or UA mention the game contains microtransactions. Sites like the Google Play Store are pretty good about informing you of that kind of stuff before you download a game.
It's Hawaii which is a Democrat state... this isnt the entire US. One of the biggest rally cry for Democrats is "Think of the Children" These bill are just that... meant to protect the little ones.
As for labeling... prominent is not that little blurb that Google puts up.
It's a children vs evil big gaming corps that prey on children who dont know better. There have been numerous stories of kids buying hundreds to thousands of dollars of items in game, and parents having to fight to get thou charges reversed.
Doubtful this will happen as lobbyists have more power than the politicians here in the US. At worst, I can see a new "warning label" (ala the PMRC of years ago) being added.
Also, I'm fairly certain either the Terms of Service or UA mention the game contains microtransactions. Sites like the Google Play Store are pretty good about informing you of that kind of stuff before you download a game.
It's Hawaii which is a Democrat state... this isnt the entire US. One of the biggest rally cry for Democrats is "Think of the Children" These bill are just that... meant to protect the little ones.
As for labeling... prominent is not that little blurb that Google puts up.
It's a children vs evil big gaming corps that prey on children who dont know better. There have been numerous stories of kids buying hundreds to thousands of dollars of items in game, and parents having to fight to get thou charges reversed.
Parents who let their kids buy junk in games with their credit cards are the cause of the problem. They don't deserve to get the charges reversed. They're the ones who should be banned.
However, buying ten 10-Master Key packages and double clicking on a 100 lockboxes is extremely fast. The money, however, is just as gone as if you had driven with your parent or alone on your bike or on a bus to the two nearest supermarkets to buy their remaining Kinder Egg palletes and ignore the raised eyebrows of the cashier (and possibly your parent.)
Are German children typically being given free access to credit cards by their parents?
1) This is immaterial. How much cash do kids have freely available to them that they could potentially lose a lot of money in a casino? Probably not much. That still doesn'T mean we let them into casinos.
2) You are assuming they need a credit card from their parents. That isn't true.
In Germany, starting at the age of 10, with consent of your parents, you are allowed to open your own bank account (free of charge until you become 18). The bank account has some restrictions, but the Sparkasse for example advertises use with paydirect for online purchases, a service which, if I am not mistaken, is also supported by Paypal and maybe other payment providers Cryptic uses.
So the kid could be using its own account, not necessarily under direct control by its parents.
(I would not be surprised if similar options exist outside Germany, but that isn't really relevant here.)
For that matter, where's the evidence that Zen is spent only on keys? Heck, I've ground up thousands of Zen, but the only keys I've ever purchased have been for EC on the Exchange. (I did break down and pull out the ol' debit card when Agents of Yesterday came out, because I wanted those sweet, sweet TOS-style ships to level in.) If I bought Zen, it would be with the intention of purchasing either costumes- pardon me, uniforms, or new starships to play in. (Then again, I'm also aware that the ship is just space clothes - ask around, there's probably still someone around who remembers going on that Undine PvE run with Grunt and his Risian cruiser, the RXS Latinum Princess. Nobody can get any real performance out of a Risian Love Boat, right? Especially if they haven't tuned all the gear just right? Yeah, not really. Seven beam banks, a mine launcher, and BFAW cover a multitude of sins. Ship tiers being equal, it's the pilot that matters, not the ship.)
It is questionable that the burden of proof is on the Landesmedienanstalt here, though. All they might need is the "if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, maybe it's a duck" line of argument, and make a ruling. This isn't a criminal case, after all.
And when it comes to customer safety or child safety/protection, German legal philosophy differs from US legal philosophy - you have a product? Show us that it's safe, or you can't sell it vs Sure, sell your product it, but if it's shown to be unsafe, prepare for hefty punitive damages that could ruin your company.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It is questionable that the burden of proof is on the Landesmedienanstalt here, though. All they might need is the "if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, maybe it's a duck" line of argument, and make a ruling. This isn't a criminal case, after all.
And when it comes to customer safety or child safety/protection, German legal philosophy differs from US legal philosophy - you have a product? Show us that it's safe, or you can't sell it vs Sure, sell your product it, but if it's shown to be unsafe, prepare for hefty punitive damages that could ruin your company.
And you're getting a MVP award from me too. I really enjoy your level-headedness throughout this thread, and your ability not to get derailed.
There has never and will never be an MMO without bugs, bugs with lifespans of years are also common, WoW has launch bugs still in the game. There are bug fixes in every patch, a vast difference from a few years ago. The queues are empty mostly because of Mark Choice packages & daily bonuses, so Marks can be had by playing the easiest, quickest missions, and the pnes that are actually fun are harder to get a group, not impossible by any means.
Pertinent to this thread, I think the queues are dead, precisely because PWE's business model nowadays hinges on a handful of whales, and no longer 'millions' of players. Delta Rising killed the queues, IMHO.
I live in a Democratic state as well, yet I am old enough to know that no matter what the rally cry is for either Democrat or Republican, their true intent is "show me the money".
I find it mildly amusing to see so many Americans acting out the typical cliches about them; aka, 'Governments are out to get us' and 'Everyone is in it for the money.' Is it really so difficult to believe some countries actually makes rules, just to protect children, without some nefarious ulterior motives?!
Should automobile and gun manufacturers be held accountable too because of inept parents?
Very much so! This is a potential can of worms I'm opening here, of course, but the gun situation is your country is, for lack of a better term, insane. The whole 'right to bear arms' contually feeds into a state of paranoia against your governments (and everyone around you in general), who, OMG, might become tyrants one day. I, for one, am counting myself very lucky to live in a country where regular civilians are not allowed to carry arms, where ppl are always complaining about politics (who doesn't?), but where the goverment is not seen as some sort of enemy, and generally trusted to have the welfare of the weak in mind when they pass laws to protect our children, without anyone worrying that they're trying to make money off of it.
Seriously, if anything, your whole gun argument -- although you meant the opposite -- is one huge ad PRO government regulation.
Ok, the politics are starting to get a bit off track. In fact, let's steer the conversation more towards how Germany's decision could effect the game, and try to keep the conversation more focused on the game itself.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Are German children typically being given free access to credit cards by their parents? If so, why exactly is this the responsibility of Cryptic, or any other online corporation? Because credit cards (whose possession is often, I'm tempted to say generally, taken as evidence that the possessor is an adult) are the only way to buy Zen.
Small correction: it isn't. You can buy Zen from your Steam account which in turn can be fed through multiple means not using a credit card, at least in Germany. (Things may differ a lot here between countries because again, what is a "Credit Card" in the US and what is a "Credit Card" in Germany differs. Here arguably it doesn't matter though because the differences are between the CC company and the customer with no effect on the business receiving the money)
Exactly. Honestly, the more you read these posts and into this subject, the more it becomes clear it has nothing to do with "protecting children". It has everything to do with adults being upset that a digital item is priced (by other players, not the gaming company) outside their means to pay.
Again, while meimei, mustrum, soph, me, others may all be sad that we cannot afford the beautiful shinies in game and thus scream and shout and cry, it has no bearingh whatsoever on this whole issue. We are not advocating for this to happen, we are trying to describe what happens and what may happen. The whole "protection of children" idea is not our own. And while I don't believe that the government is only out to get me, I am also not naive enough not to know that there is some hefty lobbying going on. However, to lobby an agency is more difficult than to lobby a politician, and I seriously doubt that the "lobby of players who really wanted that shiny but cannot get it" carries as much clout as, say, big pharma.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
This whole debacle reminds me of the recurring attempt to ban prizes in boxes of cereals. There isn't a real problem there. No one was ever ruined because they sold their house to buy cereal boxes (or lock boxes) and then resorted to thievery to support their addiction. It's always been about parents who don't want to be pestered by their children to buy something just for the prize. Laws exist to protect innocents from criminals, not to make parenting easier for wet noodles who are incapable of putting their foot down and saying "no" to a spoiled child. Germans tend to be a rational people, so I doubt this proposed change to their laws will get off the ground without someone demonstrating actual harm rather than mere frustration.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Again, while meimei, mustrum, soph, me, others may all be sad that we cannot afford the beautiful shinies in game and thus scream and shout and cry, it has no bearingh whatsoever on this whole issue. We are not advocating for this to happen, we are trying to describe what happens and what may happen. The whole "protection of children" idea is not our own. And while I don't believe that the government is only out to get me, I am also not naive enough not to know that there is some hefty lobbying going on. However, to lobby an agency is more difficult than to lobby a politician, and I seriously doubt that the "lobby of players who really wanted that shiny but cannot get it" carries as much clout as, say, big pharma.
Zactly!
Since lobbying politician/agencies with money is strictly illegal here, there's little point in the gambling industry lobbying to begin with; after all, agencies that deal with gambling already know exactly what they want: they want everything legalized, without any restrictions. And, like you say, an entire agency is very dificult to lobby as it is, as these are government-instituted agencies, presumed to work imdependently: a large body of civil servants, none of whom can benefit financially personally from any outside lobbying. Lobbying an agency is as difficult as, for example, saying "I want to lobby the FBI."
Which isn't to say no lobbying at all occurs; but it's generally 'above the table.' Agencies often entertain suggestions from the industry. It's considered prudent even, here, to listen to all sides ('poldermodel'), as you don't want to become reckless, and perhaps decide on something that may have huge economical consequences, without consulting the parties involved first. So, large companies can present their cases, and will be listened to; but in general will have little to no real influence on the overall decision making process.
They're proposing changing what existing laws apply to. It may not be a change to the letter of the law, but it's an administrative change to the spirit of the law and to its effect. Not all changes to a legal system involve re-writing the text of the laws.
They're proposing changing what existing laws apply to. It may not be a change to the letter of the law, but it's an administrative change to the spirit of the law and to its effect. Not all changes to a legal system involve re-writing laws.
Precisely! It will simply be a matter of deciding whether the statistical relationship between the sale of lock boxes and the revenue stream from companies like PWE is a close enough match to how gambling companies make their money to warrant calling lock boxes 'gambling' from now on.
Comments
There might later be politicians that want to get involved and decide they don't like the outcome of the process and think the law need to be adjusted, but that is not what it's currently about.
Considering that the study is apparantly about the way companies get their money from customers (and that a small number of customers bring them most of the money), I could see why something like Kinder Eggs simly does not qualify - because they get most of their revenue from customers that just buy for consumption, with the egg content as added bonus, instead of most of the revenue being from a small clientele that might be addicted and/or avid collectors.
Also, when it comes to protection of children - it's rather hard to actually send hundreds of €uros on Kinder Eggs, since that would require buying them in package sizes and numbers not typically available, and impractical for children to transport. even opening them and scannign their contents takes notable amount of time.
However, buying ten 10-Master Key packages and double clicking on a 100 lockboxes is extremely fast. The money, however, is just as gone as if you had driven with your parent or alone on your bike or on a bus to the two nearest supermarkets to buy their remaining Kinder Egg palletes and ignore the raised eyebrows of the cashier (and possibly your parent.)
And of course, we don't know what they were looking at specifically. Maybe it was actually mobile games that were in their focus, where spending money might be even simpler than in STO. I dunno, I don't do mobile games.
For that matter, where's the evidence that Zen is spent only on keys? Heck, I've ground up thousands of Zen, but the only keys I've ever purchased have been for EC on the Exchange. (I did break down and pull out the ol' debit card when Agents of Yesterday came out, because I wanted those sweet, sweet TOS-style ships to level in.) If I bought Zen, it would be with the intention of purchasing either costumes- pardon me, uniforms, or new starships to play in. (Then again, I'm also aware that the ship is just space clothes - ask around, there's probably still someone around who remembers going on that Undine PvE run with Grunt and his Risian cruiser, the RXS Latinum Princess. Nobody can get any real performance out of a Risian Love Boat, right? Especially if they haven't tuned all the gear just right? Yeah, not really. Seven beam banks, a mine launcher, and BFAW cover a multitude of sins. Ship tiers being equal, it's the pilot that matters, not the ship.)
Then youd have to go back to the pay 2 play model, not that Id care, and Id actually approve...Id expect to see a lot of whiners leave...which all in all would be a good thing. F2P has always brought the lowest common denominator to games.
Its got nothing to do with either Adults who cant control themselves, or children. Both are excuses.
Its about money, plain and simple. Loot/Lock box sales arent being taxed by the government. In the U.S., all forms of legal gambling are taxed, and the revenue is enormous...with the TRIBBLE whining of EA players about the SW lootboxes, the govenment finally noticed how much money these things bring in...and now they want their cut...
I'd honestly prefer that, you seem to get better game play/bug fixes and less pointless shiny things.
I honestly don't think that would be a bad thing. The game isn't going to have an expansion as big as Legacy of Romulus was last I heard. What new content that does come out is in a size that you really can't pace yourself at because most times it's a single episode or STF instance tied to a new reputation which gets devoured quickly followed by burnout.
Throw on top of that a glut of new ships with little new content to fly them in and you can burn out even quicker by grinding out gear/traits for said ships in existing content. There's also other factors I think impacting this but they've been hashed around before and could derail things in this topic.
I never said I wanted it to close, I just said at this point I don't think it'd be a bad thing. Between the empty queues for a lot of STFS, bugs, and things I mentioned I just don't see this game as being in a healthy state.
It's Hawaii which is a Democrat state... this isnt the entire US. One of the biggest rally cry for Democrats is "Think of the Children" These bill are just that... meant to protect the little ones.
As for labeling... prominent is not that little blurb that Google puts up.
It's a children vs evil big gaming corps that prey on children who dont know better. There have been numerous stories of kids buying hundreds to thousands of dollars of items in game, and parents having to fight to get thou charges reversed.
2) You are assuming they need a credit card from their parents. That isn't true.
In Germany, starting at the age of 10, with consent of your parents, you are allowed to open your own bank account (free of charge until you become 18). The bank account has some restrictions, but the Sparkasse for example advertises use with paydirect for online purchases, a service which, if I am not mistaken, is also supported by Paypal and maybe other payment providers Cryptic uses.
So the kid could be using its own account, not necessarily under direct control by its parents.
(I would not be surprised if similar options exist outside Germany, but that isn't really relevant here.)
It is questionable that the burden of proof is on the Landesmedienanstalt here, though. All they might need is the "if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, maybe it's a duck" line of argument, and make a ruling. This isn't a criminal case, after all.
And when it comes to customer safety or child safety/protection, German legal philosophy differs from US legal philosophy - you have a product? Show us that it's safe, or you can't sell it vs Sure, sell your product it, but if it's shown to be unsafe, prepare for hefty punitive damages that could ruin your company.
And you're getting a MVP award from me too.
Pertinent to this thread, I think the queues are dead, precisely because PWE's business model nowadays hinges on a handful of whales, and no longer 'millions' of players. Delta Rising killed the queues, IMHO.
I find it mildly amusing to see so many Americans acting out the typical cliches about them; aka, 'Governments are out to get us' and 'Everyone is in it for the money.' Is it really so difficult to believe some countries actually makes rules, just to protect children, without some nefarious ulterior motives?!
Very much so! This is a potential can of worms I'm opening here, of course, but the gun situation is your country is, for lack of a better term, insane. The whole 'right to bear arms' contually feeds into a state of paranoia against your governments (and everyone around you in general), who, OMG, might become tyrants one day. I, for one, am counting myself very lucky to live in a country where regular civilians are not allowed to carry arms, where ppl are always complaining about politics (who doesn't?), but where the goverment is not seen as some sort of enemy, and generally trusted to have the welfare of the weak in mind when they pass laws to protect our children, without anyone worrying that they're trying to make money off of it.
Seriously, if anything, your whole gun argument -- although you meant the opposite -- is one huge ad PRO government regulation.
/Here endeth the mini-rant.
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Small correction: it isn't. You can buy Zen from your Steam account which in turn can be fed through multiple means not using a credit card, at least in Germany. (Things may differ a lot here between countries because again, what is a "Credit Card" in the US and what is a "Credit Card" in Germany differs. Here arguably it doesn't matter though because the differences are between the CC company and the customer with no effect on the business receiving the money)
Again, while meimei, mustrum, soph, me, others may all be sad that we cannot afford the beautiful shinies in game and thus scream and shout and cry, it has no bearingh whatsoever on this whole issue. We are not advocating for this to happen, we are trying to describe what happens and what may happen. The whole "protection of children" idea is not our own. And while I don't believe that the government is only out to get me, I am also not naive enough not to know that there is some hefty lobbying going on. However, to lobby an agency is more difficult than to lobby a politician, and I seriously doubt that the "lobby of players who really wanted that shiny but cannot get it" carries as much clout as, say, big pharma.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Zactly!
Since lobbying politician/agencies with money is strictly illegal here, there's little point in the gambling industry lobbying to begin with; after all, agencies that deal with gambling already know exactly what they want: they want everything legalized, without any restrictions. And, like you say, an entire agency is very dificult to lobby as it is, as these are government-instituted agencies, presumed to work imdependently: a large body of civil servants, none of whom can benefit financially personally from any outside lobbying. Lobbying an agency is as difficult as, for example, saying "I want to lobby the FBI."
Which isn't to say no lobbying at all occurs; but it's generally 'above the table.' Agencies often entertain suggestions from the industry. It's considered prudent even, here, to listen to all sides ('poldermodel'), as you don't want to become reckless, and perhaps decide on something that may have huge economical consequences, without consulting the parties involved first. So, large companies can present their cases, and will be listened to; but in general will have little to no real influence on the overall decision making process.
Precisely! It will simply be a matter of deciding whether the statistical relationship between the sale of lock boxes and the revenue stream from companies like PWE is a close enough match to how gambling companies make their money to warrant calling lock boxes 'gambling' from now on.