@gothicshark I didnt see this mentioned but only skimmed the thread after it turned into an argument. But you can make a 23c looking klingon already. I think all it takes is levelling a TOS fed out of the 6 TOS episodes. There's even chainmail sleeves/pants
I have leveled a TOS Fed already. Although I have the TOS Klingon Uniforms (had them since Day one of the game Lifetime, with preorder bonuses.) I can not make a Klingon with a full head of hair, and no forehead ridges.
Alass I play as an "alien" in the Empire, to get my feel. But He'll always be just an Alien.
Did you not level a TOS Fed until after the Battle of Caleb IV? Because if you did, you can take a Klingon character to the tailor, and one of the available options for him/her will be a TOS head. That's what I did with Kirrk, and all of his Klingon BOffs.
Sadly, it's not available on creation, so if you're going through the Klink tutorial, you'll just have to imagine that the toon has the head you wanted until you get to the tailor at First City...
Season 1 of Discovery would beg to differ. Writers were like "canon? wassat?" and CBS were like "take our moneyyy!"
Except Discovery has followed canon. You not liking the visual style, or its darker approach to the Trek universe, does not constitute a breach of canon.
-Burnham's mutiny attempt failed, keeping in-line with what Spock said in TOS(ignoring the fact Spock himself had mutinied twice before he made that comment)
-The Klingon's cloaking tech wasn't the same as the Romulans, and was beaten in-show, consistent with TOS Feds not being aware of the Romulans cloaking tech
-The whole Fed/Klingon war is exactly like canon
Sorry, even though this is off topic of my Opening post, I can not abide the failure to recognize two specific failures in Lore in Regards to the Xeno-Klingons.
1: The body is just an empty sack once the spirit is gone. The tomb ship collecting the dead seems go against this Canon significantly as it was also a plot point.
2: On hair: "The Sword of Kahless was the first bat'leth ever forged. It was designed and created by Kahless the Unforgettable and was dated to the 9th century AD. According to Klingon mythology, Kahless created the sword by dropping a lock of his hair into a river of lava from Kri'stak's summit, and then cooling the burning lock in the Lake of Lusor and forging it into a blade. (TNG: "Rightful Heir")" hairless Klingons seem to ignore a major Klingon Belief. (also a warrior was to cultivate their hair was a constant joke in TNG)
-However I have a personal head canon theory which solves the Klingon issue nicely. And that is in the Discovery Universe, which is not the TOS Universe, Kahless instead of driving the Fek'Ihri from Qo'noS, united the Fek'lhri into the general Klingon Society, and that Discovery Klingons are actually a distilled Klingon from this mix. p.s Since the Fek'lhri are assioated with the Barge of the Dead and other death rituals, this means the Tombship was actually the Bardge of the Dead, and was not made by Klingons, but by the 'Gods' who Kortar slew.
--also on this note, that would mean T'Kuvma was the distant ancestor of Kortar.
Sadly, it's not available on creation, so if you're going through the Klink tutorial, you'll just have to imagine that the toon has the head you wanted until you get to the tailor at First City...
oh, that is the issue. Time to reroll him again. And then skip to the Tailor.
... snip...
Not seeing how the concept of a species of small "brain slug" parasites that control someone else to infiltrate a society is no different from a "Starship troopers" bug-swarm with different incarnations of brutish, flying monsters the protagonists shoot in a never ending onslaught is either wilfully ignorant or extremely hyperbolic.
... snip ...
Except TNG did it on screen 9 years before Starship Troopers.
Wrath of Khan did it before TNG. Don't forget Chekov and the Reliant's Capt. were controlled by those parasites.
-However I have a personal head canon theory which solves the Klingon issue nicely. And that is in the Discovery Universe, which is not the TOS Universe, Kahless instead of driving the Fek'Ihri from Qo'noS, united the Fek'lhri into the general Klingon Society, and that Discovery Klingons are actually a distilled Klingon from this mix. p.s Since the Fek'lhri are assioated with the Barge of the Dead and other death rituals, this means the Tombship was actually the Bardge of the Dead, and was not made by Klingons, but by the 'Gods' who Kortar slew.
--also on this note, that would mean T'Kuvma was the distant ancestor of Kortar.
Thats... some interesting thinking.... not sure I agree with or could roll with it... but its a damned interesting idea
My head is largely hairless. Does that mean I deny the tales of, say, Samson in the Old Testament, or the people who donate their hair to Locks of Love? Or does it just mean that I'm bald, and that this has nothing to do with any belief of mine or anyone else's?
To the majority of Klingons in the 24th century, the corpse was nothing more than an empty shell. Unless you subscribe wholeheartedly to Planet of Hats, this says nothing of the belief of every single Klingon, much less a group shown in dialog to be considered "deviant" by their home society. Here on this world, we've had everything from the body being a shell, to burying the body to prevent its arising as a revenant, to leaving it exposed until the elements reclaim it, to the deceased being served up to relatives. Why are Klingons only allowed one set of beliefs for their entire society across their entire history?
-However I have a personal head canon theory which solves the Klingon issue nicely. And that is in the Discovery Universe, which is not the TOS Universe, Kahless instead of driving the Fek'Ihri from Qo'noS, united the Fek'lhri into the general Klingon Society, and that Discovery Klingons are actually a distilled Klingon from this mix. p.s Since the Fek'lhri are assioated with the Barge of the Dead and other death rituals, this means the Tombship was actually the Bardge of the Dead, and was not made by Klingons, but by the 'Gods' who Kortar slew.
Few problems with this
A. Discovery is the Prime Universe, no matter how much you kick and scream.
B. The Fek'Ihri have no connection to the Bardge of the Dead, or other death rituals. The Fek'Ihri were ancient enemies of Kahless, whom he conquered using the Sword of Kahless, and nothing is stated about them beyond that. Any connection to them and the Klingon mythological figure Fek'Ihr is 100% fanmade.
2: On hair: "The Sword of Kahless was the first bat'leth ever forged. It was designed and created by Kahless the Unforgettable and was dated to the 9th century AD. According to Klingon mythology, Kahless created the sword by dropping a lock of his hair into a river of lava from Kri'stak's summit, and then cooling the burning lock in the Lake of Lusor and forging it into a blade. (TNG: "Rightful Heir")" hairless Klingons seem to ignore a major Klingon Belief. (also a warrior was to cultivate their hair was a constant joke in TNG)
Nowhere in Discovery does it state all Klingons are hairless, nor does anything in Discovery imply they are.
1: The body is just an empty sack once the spirit is gone. The tomb ship collecting the dead seems go against this Canon significantly as it was also a plot point.
Not really. While the body may be a sack, it is still very possible to take it into battle to honor those who died fighting for you.
I made a good post in reply, sadly it vanished. Maybe too many pictures.
Timeline.
"The Cage" Approximately 2254 (Spock was on the Enterprise but under Pike, he was just a Science officer.) Color Coded Uniforms, Bold colors on the Bridge technology.
"The Vulcan Hello" May 11, 2256. Star Fleet is wearing Black and Dark Navy Jump Suits. No color codes. No bold colors on regular ships of the line. Klingons Hairless, Ridged, and over taxed on spikes,
"Errand of Mercy" approximately 2267 (First TOS Klingons Human looking, stark design work) Of Course Kirk has now been Captain of the Enterprise for a few years now, and is on a "5 year Mission..."
As to the Ridges.
"Divergence" 2154 establishes that Most Klingons are affected and loose their Ridges and gain full heads of hair.
"Trials and Tribble-ations" 2373/2268 establishes indeed the look and feel are canon, and yes Worf has to hide his ridges because Klingon don't have them at this time.
"They are Klingons... and it is a long story."
"What happened? Some kind of genetic engineering?"
"A viral mutation?"
"We do not discuss it with outsiders."
These and these alone prove that Discovery is not in the same timeline as TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy, and Enterprise. I'm ok with it as a Star Trek Show, but if it's canon, then to fit established Lore, it can not be in the same timeline.
It's not just the look and feel of the Klingons, it's the fashion, Design choices, and established events which have happened already. (I mean "The Cage" predates the Show by about 2 years.)
So who here thinks that the Klingon's from Disco are h'urQ high-breads from when they ran things on Qo'nos? Think about how the Klingon's from Archers time where trying so hard for a physical edge, but against what? If T'Kuvma is to be believed The federation was not worth their notice 100 years before that. So why was the high council trying to get to Archer? Because he was a threat? Nope because they where afraid he would find out that they where not the ones running the Empire. We do know that the plague brought from that experiment killed 3/4 of the Klingon population. But which population? Remember that Klingon society is founded on a cast system. So how many of the High-breads do you think where left after that? And as Xenophobic as they appear to be. DO you think that would deal with the likes of Archer and the human race? Nope not a chance. They would hide in the shadows and let the "natives" handle it. {I.E. The high Council} How many "native" Klingon's do you think where elevated to help with reconstruction of the Empire? Trust me it will not be a far stretch to take it there if that is not what was intended in the first place.
1. The uniform thing was explained away in one of the Discovery novels
- Which not everyone will read, to become aware of.
- That the primary material needs secondary material to 'explain away' its inconsistency as a prequel to the original series which it rode the coat-tails of pre-release, that means that it fails both as a prequel, and as primary material. It shouldn't need to be explained any further than it is or can be explained on-screen, by any other source.
As patrick has said, it's canon, because CBS Says it's canon, because they get to define canon. But that doesn't mean that they've done a good job of doing so. They have not. But some folks will still watch it, so that makes it a success as far as they're concerned.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So who here thinks that the Klingon's from Disco are h'urQ high-breads from when they ran things on Qo'nos? [...]
Now that you say it... they do look a bit like bread.
DISCO has a lot to explain. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if in the second part of the season they would gradually erase themselves from the timeline, like Annorax did. This spore drive is so extremely OP that there's no way in hell starfleet would abandon the idea. There must be a twist somewhere.
Also T'Kuvma is a punching bag, Kol is a punching bag, Voq we will see but he seems to be a human. Only L'rell is pulling her weight but she's jailed and will go down with DISCO after this Omega 4 relay incident.
- Which not everyone will read, to become aware of.
- That the primary material needs secondary material to 'explain away' its inconsistency as a prequel to the original series which it rode the coat-tails of pre-release, that means that it fails both as a prequel, and as primary material. It shouldn't need to be explained any further than it is or can be explained on-screen, by any other source.
As patrick has said, it's canon, because CBS Says it's canon, because they get to define canon. But that doesn't mean that they've done a good job of doing so. They have not. But some folks will still watch it, so that makes it a success as far as they're concerned.
By this logic every single Trek show has failed as an individual show, and as sequels/prequels in a series, because every single one of them needed out of show material to explain the inconsistencies between them.
Everything from Stardates being seemingly random, only for Gene to say its because stardates change by where you are in the galaxy, as well as how much time has passed, to the inconsistent warp speeds being rationalized by a giant ball of fanwank that still doesn't really work, to Klingon's changing appearance between TOS and TNG never being brought up, to DS9 bringing it up, and never explaining it, etc. etc. Star Trek is a show that is, and always has been, based on inconsistency, and not explaining things in show, and needed the producers to explain things so they make sense.
Your bias is showing.
And yours isn't? Such words do not work as an argument.
No, none of them have needed suplementary material. Not one of them. Internal development from show to film to series to series, was enough to explain any differences which they felt the need to address. It's also only very recently that anything other than in-screen material be considered canon, so your assertion fails.
So your entire argument is
Don't use a strawman to try and put words in my mouth.
The fact (it's not 'my argument', but an observable fact) is that from the very first trailer, Discovery was floated entirely on nostalgia to the Prime Universe and TOS, but provides nothing beyond names (and a phaser pistol) which in any way resembles the Prime Universe or TOS.
It was set up as a prequel, and fails to conform to any of the accepted conventions for prequels. It cannot be plausibly considered as one.
As a stand-alone series, fine. But that's not how it was promoted.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's also only very recently that anything other than in-screen material be considered canon, so your assertion fails.
This is objectively false as the words of the producers has been used as canon since TOS first came out, and the standards for canon are the same for all series, which includes outside developer/producer/series owner comments.
If you have to bold face lie this much to make a point, you should reconsider if your argument actually has merit.
Are you being serious??
Just go back through the discussions about Sulu being straight (or not) and you'll see how the vast majority of canon adherents refuse to accept the word of producers/actors as in any way valid. I've lost count of the amount of times I mentiooned that George Takei said that Roddenberry wrote Sulu as straight, and that he played him as straight, only to have that dismissed because 'it wasn't canon'.
Also, you're trying to shift the goalposts. Don't do that. I said, that it's only recently that anything other than in-screen material (meaning 'accompanying books', which should have been clear from the context of the conversation) has come to be considered canon (and only then, very specific material such as the JJ-tie in comics and the Discovery books) Prior to that, none of them were considered canon.
But that's not the point.
Because the point is not about what is 'considered canon' or not, the point is that Primary Material (in any genre or medium) should not need Secondary Material, to explain it, or make it make sense. If it needs something else to make it make sense, then as a piece of work, it fails.
And again: Discovery was trailered and advertised entirely on nostalgia for Prime and TOS. That's not what has been given.
That is indisputable.
As A Series of science fiction, I'm sure it's fine.
As a prequel to TOS, it fails. It takes unforgivable liberties with the IP it needed to even gain interest. If you enjoy it, then fine. Enjoy it. But don't have the audacity to pretend that the arguments as to why others don't want to watch it, are utterly invalid and baseless, because that's just disingenuous.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's also only very recently that anything other than in-screen material be considered canon, so your assertion fails.
This is objectively false as the words of the producers has been used as canon since TOS first came out, and the standards for canon are the same for all series, which includes outside developer/producer/series owner comments.
If you have to bold face lie this much to make a point, you should reconsider if your argument actually has merit.
It's not a lie at all (and a point I directly address in my preceeding post) Stop thinking that Just Because You Say Something, it somehow becomes valid. Have you ever heard of a Complex Question? What you are doing, is the same thing, but as a statement, rather than a question. But it is fallacious for the exact same reason: It wrongly presumes its own truth from its own mere construction.
You call people liars, hypocrites, and whatever other you might choose to fling as a way of discrediting. It's #fakenews, a TRIBBLE deflection tactic, and no one falls for it anymore.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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Comments
Sadly, it's not available on creation, so if you're going through the Klink tutorial, you'll just have to imagine that the toon has the head you wanted until you get to the tailor at First City...
Sorry, even though this is off topic of my Opening post, I can not abide the failure to recognize two specific failures in Lore in Regards to the Xeno-Klingons.
1: The body is just an empty sack once the spirit is gone. The tomb ship collecting the dead seems go against this Canon significantly as it was also a plot point.
2: On hair: "The Sword of Kahless was the first bat'leth ever forged. It was designed and created by Kahless the Unforgettable and was dated to the 9th century AD. According to Klingon mythology, Kahless created the sword by dropping a lock of his hair into a river of lava from Kri'stak's summit, and then cooling the burning lock in the Lake of Lusor and forging it into a blade. (TNG: "Rightful Heir")" hairless Klingons seem to ignore a major Klingon Belief. (also a warrior was to cultivate their hair was a constant joke in TNG)
-However I have a personal head canon theory which solves the Klingon issue nicely. And that is in the Discovery Universe, which is not the TOS Universe, Kahless instead of driving the Fek'Ihri from Qo'noS, united the Fek'lhri into the general Klingon Society, and that Discovery Klingons are actually a distilled Klingon from this mix. p.s Since the Fek'lhri are assioated with the Barge of the Dead and other death rituals, this means the Tombship was actually the Bardge of the Dead, and was not made by Klingons, but by the 'Gods' who Kortar slew.
--also on this note, that would mean T'Kuvma was the distant ancestor of Kortar.
oh, that is the issue. Time to reroll him again. And then skip to the Tailor.
Wrath of Khan did it before TNG. Don't forget Chekov and the Reliant's Capt. were controlled by those parasites.
Thats... some interesting thinking.... not sure I agree with or could roll with it... but its a damned interesting idea
To the majority of Klingons in the 24th century, the corpse was nothing more than an empty shell. Unless you subscribe wholeheartedly to Planet of Hats, this says nothing of the belief of every single Klingon, much less a group shown in dialog to be considered "deviant" by their home society. Here on this world, we've had everything from the body being a shell, to burying the body to prevent its arising as a revenant, to leaving it exposed until the elements reclaim it, to the deceased being served up to relatives. Why are Klingons only allowed one set of beliefs for their entire society across their entire history?
I made a good post in reply, sadly it vanished. Maybe too many pictures.
Timeline.
"The Cage" Approximately 2254 (Spock was on the Enterprise but under Pike, he was just a Science officer.) Color Coded Uniforms, Bold colors on the Bridge technology.
"The Vulcan Hello" May 11, 2256. Star Fleet is wearing Black and Dark Navy Jump Suits. No color codes. No bold colors on regular ships of the line. Klingons Hairless, Ridged, and over taxed on spikes,
"Errand of Mercy" approximately 2267 (First TOS Klingons Human looking, stark design work) Of Course Kirk has now been Captain of the Enterprise for a few years now, and is on a "5 year Mission..."
As to the Ridges.
"Divergence" 2154 establishes that Most Klingons are affected and loose their Ridges and gain full heads of hair.
"Trials and Tribble-ations" 2373/2268 establishes indeed the look and feel are canon, and yes Worf has to hide his ridges because Klingon don't have them at this time.
"They are Klingons... and it is a long story."
"What happened? Some kind of genetic engineering?"
"A viral mutation?"
"We do not discuss it with outsiders."
These and these alone prove that Discovery is not in the same timeline as TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy, and Enterprise. I'm ok with it as a Star Trek Show, but if it's canon, then to fit established Lore, it can not be in the same timeline.
It's not just the look and feel of the Klingons, it's the fashion, Design choices, and established events which have happened already. (I mean "The Cage" predates the Show by about 2 years.)
- Which not everyone will read, to become aware of.
- That the primary material needs secondary material to 'explain away' its inconsistency as a prequel to the original series which it rode the coat-tails of pre-release, that means that it fails both as a prequel, and as primary material. It shouldn't need to be explained any further than it is or can be explained on-screen, by any other source.
As patrick has said, it's canon, because CBS Says it's canon, because they get to define canon. But that doesn't mean that they've done a good job of doing so. They have not. But some folks will still watch it, so that makes it a success as far as they're concerned.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
DISCO has a lot to explain. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if in the second part of the season they would gradually erase themselves from the timeline, like Annorax did. This spore drive is so extremely OP that there's no way in hell starfleet would abandon the idea. There must be a twist somewhere.
Also T'Kuvma is a punching bag, Kol is a punching bag, Voq we will see but he seems to be a human. Only L'rell is pulling her weight but she's jailed and will go down with DISCO after this Omega 4 relay incident.
And yours isn't? Such words do not work as an argument.
No, none of them have needed suplementary material. Not one of them. Internal development from show to film to series to series, was enough to explain any differences which they felt the need to address. It's also only very recently that anything other than in-screen material be considered canon, so your assertion fails.
Don't use a strawman to try and put words in my mouth.
The fact (it's not 'my argument', but an observable fact) is that from the very first trailer, Discovery was floated entirely on nostalgia to the Prime Universe and TOS, but provides nothing beyond names (and a phaser pistol) which in any way resembles the Prime Universe or TOS.
It was set up as a prequel, and fails to conform to any of the accepted conventions for prequels. It cannot be plausibly considered as one.
As a stand-alone series, fine. But that's not how it was promoted.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Just go back through the discussions about Sulu being straight (or not) and you'll see how the vast majority of canon adherents refuse to accept the word of producers/actors as in any way valid. I've lost count of the amount of times I mentiooned that George Takei said that Roddenberry wrote Sulu as straight, and that he played him as straight, only to have that dismissed because 'it wasn't canon'.
Also, you're trying to shift the goalposts. Don't do that. I said, that it's only recently that anything other than in-screen material (meaning 'accompanying books', which should have been clear from the context of the conversation) has come to be considered canon (and only then, very specific material such as the JJ-tie in comics and the Discovery books) Prior to that, none of them were considered canon.
But that's not the point.
Because the point is not about what is 'considered canon' or not, the point is that Primary Material (in any genre or medium) should not need Secondary Material, to explain it, or make it make sense. If it needs something else to make it make sense, then as a piece of work, it fails.
And again: Discovery was trailered and advertised entirely on nostalgia for Prime and TOS. That's not what has been given.
That is indisputable.
As A Series of science fiction, I'm sure it's fine.
As a prequel to TOS, it fails. It takes unforgivable liberties with the IP it needed to even gain interest. If you enjoy it, then fine. Enjoy it. But don't have the audacity to pretend that the arguments as to why others don't want to watch it, are utterly invalid and baseless, because that's just disingenuous.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
You call people liars, hypocrites, and whatever other you might choose to fling as a way of discrediting. It's #fakenews, a TRIBBLE deflection tactic, and no one falls for it anymore.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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Yes this is the day spell check died for me. I cant believe I missed that too