Klingons (TOS/Discovery) options?

gothicshark

just curious, we have TOS Federation now, I'd love to do the same from the Klingon side of things. Also I'd love to make an actual Klingon not an alien who looks more Humanized (aka TOS Klingon)

I'll include the faux Discovery 'Klingons' into my question although I personally do not think they are Klingons.

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angrytarg

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Cryptic already said they wont do a TOS era Klingon or Romulan faction because there isn't enough lore on them from the TOS era to base enough missions and stuff on.

Which is a big problem, as Cryptic limits their own creativity to the rehashing of old episodes, mainly. The current FE storyline is all original as was the Deferi story back in the day. They should in my opinion make much more of those stories - make sure they don't ignore or change canon - and invent their own things isntead of tying EVERYTHING to a episode we once saw, but then changing that thing completely regardless just because (like the "bluegills" - why does it have to be "the thing from TNG" when they ultimately completely change everything we saw about it?).​​

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peterconnorfirst

Stick with the alien KDF side to tinker the visuals to your liking; KDF TOS clothes to wear are available as well and so is the D7.

Qapla @gothicshark

nightken

no and it's cause they don't want to, they can make any excuse they want. but in the end if they really wanted to, they would find a way. at least that is the way it stands as far as ToS.

discovery may be a big enough carrot for them to give it a half hearted try but thats gonna end poorly, or at best be not as good as they want, and than be used as an excuse why they can't do things like that.

angrytarg

somtaawkhar wrote: »

The Deferi were based off of the Capellans from TOS, the Breen are OFC from DS9, and the Preservers are from TOS and TNG. Nothing about the Breen arc was really original. Even the entire story-arc was basically a rehash of "The Chase", but instead of using DNA from various species, we use old legends from Deferi history/memory.

I also don't really see how Cryptic changed the Bluegill in any way. They act exactly like they did n TNG, and the story-arc explains the signal they sent to the Delta Quadrant back in TNG. All Cryptic did was explain where they came from(made by the Solanae) and what they were doing(infiltrating the Federation as part of an Iconian plot to make way for their invasion), which changes nothing about them.

As for making "original" content. CBS has to approve everything Cryptic does, and CBS has had a massive stick about following screen canon, which is why when it comes to races like the Klingons, they stick to canon, and don't make up too many new things. It's a CBS mandate they impose even on the books for the last few years. Cryptic can make up original content about the Tzenkethi because there is no real content about the Tzenkethi to begin with.

I have to wonder what lengths you go through just to disagree with the point made.

Dstahl said the original inspiration of the Deferi were the Capellans, yes, but to say that somehow actually made it into the final version of them is simply ridiculous. It's the same as if you'd reason anything about the Borg with "they are based on a insectoid template" which is true for early development but obviously the concept was changed later on. What was original was the usage of canonical things (Breen, Preservers etc.) and use it to interact with a original species (Deferi) to create a complete new storyline (Breen attacking Deferi for Preserver technology). The arc's conclusion was reminiscent of The Chase that is true, but it wasn't if I remember correctly explicitly shoved in there, as opposed to the "Bluegill" line.

Not seeing how the concept of a species of small "brain slug" parasites that control someone else to infiltrate a society is no different from a "Starship troopers" bug-swarm with different incarnations of brutish, flying monsters the protagonists shoot in a never ending onslaught is either wilfully ignorant or extremely hyperbolic.

Tying original concepts into the existing universe as done with the Deferi, Lukari and Kentari leaves Cryptic a lot of freedom to design new things which don't violate canon. If they take canonical elements and completely rewrite them it creates violations of established canon. and if they almost precisely recreate old episodes, with us doing exactly, almost step-by-step what the Enterprise crew already did it feels kind of pointless ​​

corelogik

angrytarg wrote: »

... snip...
Not seeing how the concept of a species of small "brain slug" parasites that control someone else to infiltrate a society is no different from a "Starship troopers" bug-swarm with different incarnations of brutish, flying monsters the protagonists shoot in a never ending onslaught is either wilfully ignorant or extremely hyperbolic.
... snip ...
​​

Except TNG did it on screen 9 years before Starship Troopers.

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f8explorer

somtaawkhar wrote: »

gothicshark wrote: »

just curious, we have TOS Federation now, I'd love to do the same from the Klingon side of things. Also I'd love to make an actual Klingon not an alien who looks more Humanized (aka TOS Klingon)

I'll include the faux Discovery 'Klingons' into my question although I personally do not think they are Klingons.

Cryptic already said they wont do a TOS era Klingon or Romulan faction because there isn't enough lore on them from the TOS era to base enough missions and stuff on.

Question is ... Will Discovery change that?

tyler002

Don't know what difference it'll make in regards to TOS, they most likely won't have anything TOS-style in Discovery.

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angrytarg

corelogik wrote: »

Except TNG did it on screen 9 years before Starship Troopers.

It did? Show me the episode the protagonists fight endless Zerg swarms and you get this point

somtaawkhar wrote: »

(...)It did, they act like the Capellans in many ways.(...)

Wait, what? The Capellans are Warriors, preferring fighting (or challenges to the death) over love even. The Deferi are pacifists. Their visuals do not represent any of the Capellan costumes, they do not use the Kleegat or any unique weapons for that matter. None of their obscure rituals are mentioned in STO and anything like that would definitely have found it's way into the game.

And by this backwards logic, all the storylines in-game are original content. Or, can you name me the episode of Star trek where the clone of Kahless goes out and fights Breen to recover the sword of Kahless?

That particular story is indeed well done, albeit superfluous in-universe. But they take known elements and tell a new story with them. Compare that to our STO encounter with the Doomsday device, which is a carbon copy of what happened when the Enterprise encountered it, even with a character sacrificing themselves via shuttle to fly in it's maw, resulting in the exact same dialogue of significant damage and so on. That episode is badly done, it's full of memorabilia for the players but the exact same repetition of events two hundred years later is quite unbelievable.

(...) Expansion on background =/= changing said background. (...)

I agree to a degree. But turning classic body snatchers into Zerg is a long shot.

(...)Creating new concepts should only be done as an absolute last resort. The Star Trek canon has over 1,200ish alien species, or unique entities, most of which didn't even get more then a single episode dedicated to them. The Star Trek canon is a massively wide ocean, that shallower then the smallest puddle outside a handful of core species like the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. Reusing already established races allows Cryptic to DEEPEN Trek lore, rather then widen an already massively wide and shallow pond. (...)

If they recreate an entire society based on that single episode appearance I'd say it doesn't count as deepening, but that's personal taste. In general you have a point, but it requires care and attention when knitting those canonical appearance into a coherent net, simple name-dropping doesn't help.

This is even exemplified in the Lukari/Kentari situation, as the Lukari and Kentari turned out to be basically Vulcans and Romulans, except in their situation the Vulcans lost the war. Instead of using the Vulans and Romulans, and using the colony as a stepping stone to further the established reunification story arc between the Vulcans and Romulans, Cryptic instead moved it onto a new species. In doing so they made it worthless since we have no real pre-existing connection to them, and they won't really be a thing after this arc is done, unlike the Vulcans and Romulans who will be around the whole game, and who could have benefited more from it. All this arc does is show exactly the pitfalls of what you describe.

The Romulans did get their rewrite in form of the Republic already. The reunification story is embedded in there, but stopped halfway in. But I agree that the Lukari/Kentari situation is a bit "rocky" as a analogy to a already existing situation, but those two can be developed over time without fear of tripping over anything. I think this is a superior solution to revisiting old scenes and forcing those to expand when no expansion was needed.

Stop trying to make the game more shallow.

Oh, if I had any say in it you'd probably not like "my" game ​​

roadghost

somtaawkhar wrote: »

genhauk wrote: »

Question is ... Will Discovery change that?

No. I doubt we will see story content reference Discovery until Season 2 of Discovery is done.

Well with the current rumored shooting schedule that will be sometime after 2020.

tyler002

angrytarg wrote: »

I agree to a degree. But turning classic body snatchers into Zerg is a long shot.

They're still used the same way as they were in TNG, with body-snatching infiltrators being their main use in the plot.

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leemwatson

angrytarg wrote: »

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Cryptic already said they wont do a TOS era Klingon or Romulan faction because there isn't enough lore on them from the TOS era to base enough missions and stuff on.

Which is a big problem, as Cryptic limits their own creativity to the rehashing of old episodes, mainly. The current FE storyline is all original as was the Deferi story back in the day. They should in my opinion make much more of those stories - make sure they don't ignore or change canon - and invent their own things isntead of tying EVERYTHING to a episode we once saw, but then changing that thing completely regardless just because (like the "bluegills" - why does it have to be "the thing from TNG" when they ultimately completely change everything we saw about it?).​​

You know full well that it's CBS more than Cryptic that limits storylines as Episodes needs CBS approval, which the Dev's have said repeatedly. Anything that is with-in Canon timelines is probably even stricter, and to be honest, aren't we sick of time-travel AND constant conflicts!?

soullessraptor

leemwatson wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Cryptic already said they wont do a TOS era Klingon or Romulan faction because there isn't enough lore on them from the TOS era to base enough missions and stuff on.

Which is a big problem, as Cryptic limits their own creativity to the rehashing of old episodes, mainly. The current FE storyline is all original as was the Deferi story back in the day. They should in my opinion make much more of those stories - make sure they don't ignore or change canon - and invent their own things isntead of tying EVERYTHING to a episode we once saw, but then changing that thing completely regardless just because (like the "bluegills" - why does it have to be "the thing from TNG" when they ultimately completely change everything we saw about it?).​​

You know full well that it's CBS more than Cryptic that limits storylines as Episodes needs CBS approval, which the Dev's have said repeatedly. Anything that is with-in Canon timelines is probably even stricter, and to be honest, aren't we sick of time-travel AND constant conflicts!?

Time Travel is actually a fairly interesting idea, simply because of the potential ramifications/threats, plus the nostalgia value. Let's be fair, it was pretty neat seeing Montgomery Scott, Circa TOS. Time/space phasing would also be interesting for the ability to integrate characters (Perhaps a temporal arc revolving around the Enterprise-D, or the Kelvin Enterprise), and the potential for creating new threats or enhancing old ones (say, a TDF change results in the Borg actually assimilating Species 8472, and seeing what that would do to the current timeline).

somtaawkhar wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

I have to wonder what lengths you go through just to disagree with the point made.

Dstahl said the original inspiration of the Deferi were the Capellans, yes, but to say that somehow actually made it into the final version of them is simply ridiculous. It's the same as if you'd reason anything about the Borg with "they are based on a insectoid template" which is true for early development but obviously the concept was changed later on. What was original was the usage of canonical things (Breen, Preservers etc.) and use it to interact with a original species (Deferi) to create a complete new storyline (Breen attacking Deferi for Preserver technology). The arc's conclusion was reminiscent of The Chase that is true, but it wasn't if I remember correctly explicitly shoved in there, as opposed to the "Bluegill" line.

Not seeing how the concept of a species of small "brain slug" parasites that control someone else to infiltrate a society is no different from a "Starship troopers" bug-swarm with different incarnations of brutish, flying monsters the protagonists shoot in a never ending onslaught is either wilfully ignorant or extremely hyperbolic.

Tying original concepts into the existing universe as done with the Deferi, Lukari and Kentari leaves Cryptic a lot of freedom to design new things which don't violate canon. If they take canonical elements and completely rewrite them it creates violations of established canon. and if they almost precisely recreate old episodes, with us doing exactly, almost step-by-step what the Enterprise crew already did it feels kind of pointless

The irony of that statement is hilarious.

It did, they act like the Capellans in many ways. And by this backwards logic, all the storylines in-game are original content. Or, can you name me the episode of Star trek where the clone of Kahless goes out and fights Breen to recover the sword of Kahless?

Adding addition forms and backstory to the Bluegill lifestyle doesn't constitute changing them completely... Do you even know what those words mean together? Expansion on background =/= changing said background.

And again, by this logic, nothing in STO isn't original, so Cryptic has been doing it since day 1, and never stopped. You completely fumble over your own argument in its entirety in your pitiable attempts to make a rebuttal.

Creating new concepts should only be done as an absolute last resort. The Star Trek canon has over 1,200ish alien species, or unique entities, most of which didn't even get more then a single episode dedicated to them. The Star Trek canon is a massively wide ocean, that shallower then the smallest puddle outside a handful of core species like the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. Reusing already established races allows Cryptic to DEEPEN Trek lore, rather then widen an already massively wide and shallow pond.

This is even exemplified in the Lukari/Kentari situation, as the Lukari and Kentari turned out to be basically Vulcans and Romulans, except in their situation the Vulcans lost the war. Instead of using the Vulans and Romulans, and using the colony as a stepping stone to further the established reunification story arc between the Vulcans and Romulans, Cryptic instead moved it onto a new species. In doing so they made it worthless since we have no real pre-existing connection to them, and they won't really be a thing after this arc is done, unlike the Vulcans and Romulans who will be around the whole game, and who could have benefited more from it. All this arc does is show exactly the pitfalls of what you describe. Stop trying to make the game more shallow.

Actually, the Lukari/Kentari/Tzenkethi situation strikes me more as the divide between Caitan and Ferasan. Disagreements over ethics and action, rather than fundamental philosophy. Which, among other things, makes the idea of reunification much more likely, and sets the stage for the sort of child like wonder that Starfleet once had.

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kodachikuno

@gothicshark I didnt see this mentioned but only skimmed the thread after it turned into an argument. But you can make a 23c looking klingon already. I think all it takes is levelling a TOS fed out of the 6 TOS episodes. There's even chainmail sleeves/pants

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jonsills

kodachikuno wrote: »

@gothicshark I didnt see this mentioned but only skimmed the thread after it turned into an argument. But you can make a 23c looking klingon already. I think all it takes is levelling a TOS fed out of the 6 TOS episodes. There's even chainmail sleeves/pants

Yep. When I discovered that, I created Kirrk, currently a Captain commanding IKS nIvqu' (which translates as "honorable undertaking", the closest our forum tlInghan HoL scholars could come to "enterprise"). His entire bridge crew has the TOS look, even the Gorn science officer.

(Use the Classic Tunic; the undershirt should be black, the overtunic two-tone green. Only the captain gets Worf's Sash. Still missing those buttons next to the turtleneck collar, but nothing's perfect...)

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duncanidaho11

sophlogimo wrote: »

You should try and make sure you have comprehended a proposal fully before dismissing it.

Well, you can also choose to play a Foundry mission billed as a "tutorial" without having that specified by the game.

However, if we ever get a revamp of the Foundry search UI, a "tutorial" filter could be a very fun thing indeed (it still gives authors and players a lot of latitude without conferring too much emphasis.)