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Let's talk about Tank builds.

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  • hillard1959hillard1959 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    taehsong wrote: »


    Ah, Attack Pattern Delta Prime. Which Duty Officer? I'm not familiar with that particular one.

    I don't really want to argue about this, but the reason I say there is no healer role in STO is there's no huge heals (that I know of anyway). Miraculous Repair is self only unless they changed it recently and also has a long cooldown. The only huge (team) hull heal is on the Sol Desperate Defense set and it has a 2 minute cooldown. I can't remember seeing any other large heals.

    In Everquest, clerics had Complete Heal with a 12(?) second cooldown (for comparison), smaller heals had something like 3 second cooldown. To use a D&D/Everquest analogy, starships are more like rangers, mainly DPS with small heals.

    You could try looking for sets or items and stack hull and shield restoration if you really want to go that route, healer or tank.

    At most, you can only help heal them.

    Healing, in this game, isn't just about hull healing, but also shield healing. A Science cruiser would also be ideal for this role. There's actually a fair bit of overlap between healers and tanks.

    For Hull heals, you have Engineering team (yes, you can use this on allied ships and Engineering Team III is nothing to sneeze at as far as big heals are concerned) and Hazard Emitters, which not only can you use that on your allies, it gives you a debuff cleanse. I used to use that on the NPC ship you had to protect in The Cure Space back in the day. I can't log in at the moment to look, so I'm not sure if Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field is self only or not.

    For shield heals, you have Science Team, Transfer Shield Strength and Extend Shields, all of which you can use on your allies.

    If you're an Engineer, there's the trait Fleet Technician, which allows your Engineering Fleet skill to give additional hull regen to your teammates.

    Sol Defense Set is actually good for tanking, but the emergency heal that's part of the set shouldn't be overlooked. (I may be wrong, but I think the best tanking set in the game is actually the Kobali set, if you have the warp core from that ship. I don't. Sadness.)

    Let's not discount the Lukari Protomatter Field console. Using that not only increases Hull and Shield regen for yourself, but also for your team once you activate it.

    The Miracle Worker spec is going to allow a healer to use his offensive abilities to actually heal teammates. Thanks, STOUnrefined for the video.

    Healing or Tanking doesn't automatically mean being useless or being a detriment to the team. You can do all of that and crank out some moderate DPS.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    taehsong wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    If you're running with people with 50,000+ DPS builds, the queue will be over before you take too much damage.

    In ISA you are correct. However, the reason for aiming for such high Atks-In %'s is so that you can be sure that when you move into something like HSE (which is pretty much where tanks shine best), you can be sure you are capable of grabbing aggro. It's a good litmus test on how well you can grab aggro even when a high DPS'er is around.

    A recent run of mine (not quite at 50k each, but close with a total team DPS over 250k):

    NegzOMk.png

    Note I have even higher Dmg-In numbers than your example.

    If you can grab the majority of team aggro despite not being the top DPS in the team, when you get into a group with lower DPS, you'll end up with something like this:

    QpigFyX.png


    At that point, no one in the team will be in any real danger, which is basically what you should be aiming for. The only reason one might die there is either from really bad piloting, from an errant core breach or they get one-shot, which is pretty much something you cannot help.


    You might be aware but the game is a "little buggy". You have taken in 5,303,063 damage and only 1,934,888 healing and no deaths. You have 3,368,175 healed hit points unaccounted for.

    Healing 1,934,888 is also extremely high.

    1,934,888 / 356.0 = 5,435 hit points per sec

    Engineering Team II heals for about 6,615.6 Hit Points with a cooldown of 15 sec using two copies. Even taking in other healing abilities 5,435 hit points is still extremely high.

    People getting over 30K+ (usually with sub-optimal build) are "bugged". They travel faster than normal players at Full Impulse while firing weapons, that's one way to tell.

    There's a similar problem with your first run also (which lasted little over 2 mins), I can go over the numbers if you like.



    Tanking ends up mainly being in the right place and being the first to grab aggro.

    Hull regen has been pushed quite a bit by the developers; both from the DPRM and PFP, and given that Hull regen doesn't show up on combatlogs then that often is where the missing HPS goes. Combined with High Hull HP you can get quite good HPS numbers. There are other heals than ET2, and people can have wildly different numbers (my ET2 is at +9,287.1 for instance, at once every 15s that's 619.14 HPS).

    As for being able to go above 30k...you need to understand how the game works (like Damage Categories and scaling which was as topic you refused to understand because the notation failed to fit what you wanted in the past IIRC). Moving quickly is a combined factor of many things, usually EPtE + ECH, and/or the competitive engines.

    While Tanking is a factor of being first, there's generally way more factors involved, like threatscale, DPS, HPS, drain to target, distance to target, HPS to others, and if pets are attacking or not.

    In short...you're saying things when there's very obvious answers when you understand how the game works. There is a difference between bugged and over-performing; quite often the two are confused.


    I reiterate:
    You might be aware but the game is a "little buggy". You have taken in 5,303,063 damage and only 1,934,888 healing and no deaths. You have 3,368,175 healed hit points unaccounted for.

    I reiterate, Hull Regen doesn't show up in a combat log. I am aware of the game being buggy, but being oblivious to mechanics isnt the fault of the game.


    3,368,175 / 356 = 9461.1657 hit points/sec

    That would mean 100,000 hull hit point ship would be completely healed in about 10.57 secs, while in combat. Do you really believe the game developers intended for that kind of healing rate?
    Like the others I have no idea if that’s what the devs intended but passive hull regen can heal 100,000 hull hitpoints over 10seconds. Which is nothing special as powers can heal that much as well.

    With 2 consoles and 2 traits Eng Team 3 will heal 31,500 hitpoints per click. Miraculous Repairs heals 120k hitpoints per click and Rally Point Marker heals around 40k+.
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    Could someone explain the new hull stuff? Due to this thread I want to modernize my passive hull regen build which I haven’t used in ages and I think I have missed some of the new gear.

    “1 console ups your regen 500% putting some around the 650% range with some of the traits in this game..”
    Is that the Protomatter Field Projector or another one?


    “Combine that with the Lukari Console and you can be 1200%+”
    Which one is this? The only Lukari console I can think off right now is the Piezo-Electric Focuser which doesn't appear to do anything to hull.


    “regen has been pushed quite a bit by the developers; both from the DPRM and PFP,”
    PFP is above, but what is DPRM?

    Thanks.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Could someone explain the new hull stuff? Due to this thread I want to modernize my passive hull regen build which I haven’t used in ages and I think I have missed some of the new gear.

    You mean the reward from the Kobayashi Maru event?

    eMYMnIW.png
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    “1 console ups your regen 500% putting some around the 650% range with some of the traits in this game..”
    Is that the Protomatter Field Projector or another one?

    “Combine that with the Lukari Console and you can be 1200%+”
    Which one is this? The only Lukari console I can think off right now is the Piezo-Electric Focuser which doesn't appear to do anything to hull.

    The "Lukari Console" is the Protomatter Field Projector.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    “regen has been pushed quite a bit by the developers; both from the DPRM and PFP,”
    PFP is above, but what is DPRM?

    DPRM would be the Dynamic Power Redistributor Module

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Synergistic_Retrofitting_Set#Console_-_Universal_-_Dynamic_Power_Redistributor_Module

    Would it be possible to build a tank on a budget? I imagine there's a lot of people who are interested in tanking, but traits like APDP are rather costly on the exchange.

    I missed this post... It's a bit difficult building a tank after the S13 rebalance. A lot of the items that help keep you alive or help gain more threat is stuck behind huge Dil/EC/Zen costs. It's unfortunate really. There is a similar ongoing discussion here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/72qt8q/tank_builds/
  • hillard1959hillard1959 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    Thank you. It's something I'll have to revisit at some point in the future. My gaming computer is down. My wife let's me play on her computer, but given my limited playtime, I've decided to concentrate on my AoY Tac captain. I'll revisit turning my engineer into the tank I always wanted him to be at some point when I can replace my tower.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    e30ernest wrote: »
    You mean the reward from the Kobayashi Maru event?
    Thank you e30ernest. I have that Lukari Console but haven’t used it and wasn’t putting two and two together. DPRM I had missed and will have to add that into my list. Do you know do things like Regenerative Integrity Field or Biotech Patch boost hit points for passive hull repair rate?

    Interesting. Can you post a link to your build?
    The basics for my hull tanks are Kobali Regen shield and Kabali warp core for set bonus. Borg Deflector & Engine hull for set bonus

    At least 2 Nanite Reinforced Circuity in the sci slots. At least 2 Enhanced Neutronium Alloy HP in eng slots. Human Bridge Officers.

    Traits Living Hull, Regenerative Control Synergy if you have control powers, Superior Techie, Bulkhead Technician.

    Space Reputation Automatred Protomatter Conduits, Fortified Hull, Aug Power Config if you have have aux power, Hull Repairing Nanites. You can also look at adv Hull reinforcement and active Hull Hardening.

    For weapons Piezo weapons for hull regen.

    Not tested them out but at a glance it would make sense to replace Neutronium Alloy HP with Xenotech Resilience Module Mk XII All Damage Resistance + Hull regen.

    Optional modules. BioNeural Infusion Circuits, Ferrofluid Hydraulic Assembly, House Mortok Defensive Configuration, assimilated consoles, Interphasic Instability.

    There is a hidden Hull Regeneration bonus to some ships. Bioships get a bonus, Cruisers have the biggest bonus, next is Sci and Escorts are the worst. Humans also give a bonus but I am not sure if that still stacks.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Do you know do things like Regenerative Integrity Field or Biotech Patch boost hit points for passive hull repair rate?

    Had to confirm with @alcaatraz (not fully awake yet) but no, since they only affect hull healing. Regen is boosted by +Hull Cap.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    taehsong wrote: »
    Tanking isn't really a good idea, there's no healer class in this game and this isn't D&D.
    taehsong wrote: »
    Tanking is necessary to Defend the Kobayashi Maru.

    https://youtu.be/DhcRxVd4qrw

    See, it's a good idea afterall. Healers will also help in the Kobayashi Maru event rather massively. It's how some of us get to really high rounds.
  • hillard1959hillard1959 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    You mean the reward from the Kobayashi Maru event?
    Thank you e30ernest. I have that Lukari Console but haven’t used it and wasn’t putting two and two together. DPRM I had missed and will have to add that into my list. Do you know do things like Regenerative Integrity Field or Biotech Patch boost hit points for passive hull repair rate?

    Interesting. Can you post a link to your build?
    The basics for my hull tanks are Kobali Regen shield and Kabali warp core for set bonus. Borg Deflector & Engine hull for set bonus

    At least 2 Nanite Reinforced Circuity in the sci slots. At least 2 Enhanced Neutronium Alloy HP in eng slots. Human Bridge Officers.

    Traits Living Hull, Regenerative Control Synergy if you have control powers, Superior Techie, Bulkhead Technician.

    Space Reputation Automatred Protomatter Conduits, Fortified Hull, Aug Power Config if you have have aux power, Hull Repairing Nanites. You can also look at adv Hull reinforcement and active Hull Hardening.

    For weapons Piezo weapons for hull regen.

    Not tested them out but at a glance it would make sense to replace Neutronium Alloy HP with Xenotech Resilience Module Mk XII All Damage Resistance + Hull regen.

    Optional modules. BioNeural Infusion Circuits, Ferrofluid Hydraulic Assembly, House Mortok Defensive Configuration, assimilated consoles, Interphasic Instability.

    There is a hidden Hull Regeneration bonus to some ships. Bioships get a bonus, Cruisers have the biggest bonus, next is Sci and Escorts are the worst. Humans also give a bonus but I am not sure if that still stacks.

    Interesting. Thank you. These are mechanics I hadn't considered before. I'll have to try decking out my engineer in such a build at some point in the future. Perhaps with one of the new Miracle Worker ships.


    taehsong wrote: »
    Just for information:

    Attract Fire (Toggle) is available on some ships (Example: Kelvin Timeline Dreadnought)

    100% Threat Generation
    50% Threat Reduction to nearby allies
    12.5 All Damage Resistance Rating
    7.5 additional All Damage Resistance Rating of for yourself per ally within 5km (Up to 5 allies)

    Tanking is necessary to Defend the Kobayashi Maru.

    That command skill is one of the reasons I really like cruisers. Particularly heavy cruisers. Unfortunately, that and Threatening Stance III usually isn't enough by themselves. It's akin to putting on a suit of armor in, say, LOTRO (a game I have tanked in) and saying "Well, I have this heavy armor and my taunts. That's all I really need to tank." In reality, you're not even nearly ready to tank as it's just as much about positioning and keeping an eye on the field as it is about gear, if not more so. There's also always that one hunter who never learned how to manage his threat generation and thinks that doing max DPS is all there is to his part in the group dynamic. (I often let those guys die...)
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    You mean the reward from the Kobayashi Maru event?
    Thank you e30ernest. I have that Lukari Console but haven’t used it and wasn’t putting two and two together. DPRM I had missed and will have to add that into my list. Do you know do things like Regenerative Integrity Field or Biotech Patch boost hit points for passive hull repair rate?

    Interesting. Can you post a link to your build?
    The basics for my hull tanks are Kobali Regen shield and Kabali warp core for set bonus. Borg Deflector & Engine hull for set bonus

    At least 2 Nanite Reinforced Circuity in the sci slots. At least 2 Enhanced Neutronium Alloy HP in eng slots. Human Bridge Officers.

    Traits Living Hull, Regenerative Control Synergy if you have control powers, Superior Techie, Bulkhead Technician.

    Space Reputation Automatred Protomatter Conduits, Fortified Hull, Aug Power Config if you have have aux power, Hull Repairing Nanites. You can also look at adv Hull reinforcement and active Hull Hardening.

    For weapons Piezo weapons for hull regen.

    Not tested them out but at a glance it would make sense to replace Neutronium Alloy HP with Xenotech Resilience Module Mk XII All Damage Resistance + Hull regen.

    Optional modules. BioNeural Infusion Circuits, Ferrofluid Hydraulic Assembly, House Mortok Defensive Configuration, assimilated consoles, Interphasic Instability.

    There is a hidden Hull Regeneration bonus to some ships. Bioships get a bonus, Cruisers have the biggest bonus, next is Sci and Escorts are the worst. Humans also give a bonus but I am not sure if that still stacks.

    Interesting. Thank you. These are mechanics I hadn't considered before. I'll have to try decking out my engineer in such a build at some point in the future. Perhaps with one of the new Miracle Worker ships.


    taehsong wrote: »
    Just for information:

    Attract Fire (Toggle) is available on some ships (Example: Kelvin Timeline Dreadnought)

    100% Threat Generation
    50% Threat Reduction to nearby allies
    12.5 All Damage Resistance Rating
    7.5 additional All Damage Resistance Rating of for yourself per ally within 5km (Up to 5 allies)

    Tanking is necessary to Defend the Kobayashi Maru.

    That command skill is one of the reasons I really like cruisers. Particularly heavy cruisers. Unfortunately, that and Threatening Stance III usually isn't enough by themselves. It's akin to putting on a suit of armor in, say, LOTRO (a game I have tanked in) and saying "Well, I have this heavy armor and my taunts. That's all I really need to tank." In reality, you're not even nearly ready to tank as it's just as much about positioning and keeping an eye on the field as it is about gear, if not more so. There's also always that one hunter who never learned how to manage his threat generation and thinks that doing max DPS is all there is to his part in the group dynamic. (I often let those guys die...)
    I was playing around with it last night and the Xenotechs cost more but are well worth using instead of Neutronium Alloy HP. Not only do the Xenotechs give you more tank but I had 5 fitted for 25% reduction to Specialisation Bridge powers recharge. After some more testing I might build a ship around zero bridge heals and as many Specialisation Bridge powers as I can.

    There is a newest trait that’s also worth looking at Repair Crews.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    There is a newest trait that’s also worth looking at Repair Crews.

    Repair Crews is awesome. It let me run Anchored on my Tank since it negates the DRR debuff from Anchored. Let's me recoup some of the lost damage for survivability. I'm also running Ablative Shell on top of that.
  • revolution0214revolution0214 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    There is a newest trait that’s also worth looking at Repair Crews.

    Repair Crews is awesome. It let me run Anchored on my Tank since it negates the DRR debuff from Anchored. Let's me recoup some of the lost damage for survivability. I'm also running Ablative Shell on top of that.

    Seconded, Repair Crews is a fantastic trait; you can get +25 all DRR for pretty much the entire run so long as you remain in combat. It helps to recoup some of the losses from the Fleet Combat Performance Boost nerf.

    Alternatively, it's great to negate the -DRR component of Anchored, which greatly helps my immersion when going for peak #FakeDPS
    ---@revolution0214 | Certified Clueless | Zone, Forums, and Facebook tri-branded Top Fleet Player™ |

    I'm pretty sure that even if you've not equipped AP but are doing x17 elitist hax dps, you're actually using AP. It's another coding quirk.
    verified by the forums, zone and top fleet players.
    -Nirett

    So TIL that SA didn't go from being a T H I C C damage bonus to a thicc damage bonus. Rather, what happened is that it went from T H I C C to merely flat. I guess I should be happy it was not turned into a flatter bonus. That would have been even more nerd-rage worthy. -Anonymous
  • hillard1959hillard1959 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    This isn't exactly where I'm at, but where I'm considering taking this build (save for the security officer doffs and Attack Pattern Delta Prime and perhaps some of the modifiers on my beams, I'm pretty close to this currently).

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/e9cf4f9899e9baf1864566a8b17d064a

    Any advice is welcome. I know I could probably do better with the Iconian set but I really wanted to run a Borg theme on this ship. Not looking to be the best, per se, but I am looking to do better with most of what I have.

    Edit: Alternatively and currently, I can slot the Nukara Deflector and Shields and the Romulan Engines. I can always slot the borg set cosmetically. Also, I don't actually have the terran warp core yet. I'm running the Counter-Command warp core.

    Edit 2: I'll have 500 zen sometime in the next couple of weeks, and would like some advice on which would be the best option for its use: Buy a fleet ship module (if I do that, I'm likely to get the fleet Archon. Similar build, but more consoles and hull to play with), retrain my skill tree (not something I really want to do, but if it's needed...), or turn it all into dil for the upcoming Upgrade Weekend.
  • hillard1959hillard1959 Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    taehsong wrote: »
    You might try Plasma Wave (lockbox) console on the Exchange for the 20% Plasma Damage Bonus passive. If you want a little extra damage.

    I actually have that console. I might try it instead of the second neutronium.
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    taehsong wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    If you're running with people with 50,000+ DPS builds, the queue will be over before you take too much damage.

    In ISA you are correct. However, the reason for aiming for such high Atks-In %'s is so that you can be sure that when you move into something like HSE (which is pretty much where tanks shine best), you can be sure you are capable of grabbing aggro. It's a good litmus test on how well you can grab aggro even when a high DPS'er is around.

    A recent run of mine (not quite at 50k each, but close with a total team DPS over 250k):

    NegzOMk.png

    Note I have even higher Dmg-In numbers than your example.

    If you can grab the majority of team aggro despite not being the top DPS in the team, when you get into a group with lower DPS, you'll end up with something like this:

    QpigFyX.png


    At that point, no one in the team will be in any real danger, which is basically what you should be aiming for. The only reason one might die there is either from really bad piloting, from an errant core breach or they get one-shot, which is pretty much something you cannot help.


    You might be aware but the game is a "little buggy". You have taken in 5,303,063 damage and only 1,934,888 healing and no deaths. You have 3,368,175 healed hit points unaccounted for.

    Healing 1,934,888 is also extremely high.

    1,934,888 / 356.0 = 5,435 hit points per sec

    Engineering Team II heals for about 6,615.6 Hit Points with a cooldown of 15 sec using two copies. Even taking in other healing abilities 5,435 hit points is still extremely high.

    People getting over 30K+ (usually with sub-optimal build) are "bugged". They travel faster than normal players at Full Impulse while firing weapons, that's one way to tell.

    There's a similar problem with your first run also (which lasted little over 2 mins), I can go over the numbers if you like.



    Tanking ends up mainly being in the right place and being the first to grab aggro.

    Hull regen has been pushed quite a bit by the developers; both from the DPRM and PFP, and given that Hull regen doesn't show up on combatlogs then that often is where the missing HPS goes. Combined with High Hull HP you can get quite good HPS numbers. There are other heals than ET2, and people can have wildly different numbers (my ET2 is at +9,287.1 for instance, at once every 15s that's 619.14 HPS).

    As for being able to go above 30k...you need to understand how the game works (like Damage Categories and scaling which was as topic you refused to understand because the notation failed to fit what you wanted in the past IIRC). Moving quickly is a combined factor of many things, usually EPtE + ECH, and/or the competitive engines.

    While Tanking is a factor of being first, there's generally way more factors involved, like threatscale, DPS, HPS, drain to target, distance to target, HPS to others, and if pets are attacking or not.

    In short...you're saying things when there's very obvious answers when you understand how the game works. There is a difference between bugged and over-performing; quite often the two are confused.


    I reiterate:
    You might be aware but the game is a "little buggy". You have taken in 5,303,063 damage and only 1,934,888 healing and no deaths. You have 3,368,175 healed hit points unaccounted for.

    I reiterate, Hull Regen doesn't show up in a combat log. I am aware of the game being buggy, but being oblivious to mechanics isnt the fault of the game.


    3,368,175 / 356 = 9461.1657 hit points/sec

    That would mean 100,000 hull hit point ship would be completely healed in about 10.57 secs, while in combat. Do you really believe the game developers intended for that kind of healing rate?
    Like the others I have no idea if that’s what the devs intended but passive hull regen can heal 100,000 hull hitpoints over 10seconds. Which is nothing special as powers can heal that much as well.

    With 2 consoles and 2 traits Eng Team 3 will heal 31,500 hitpoints per click. Miraculous Repairs heals 120k hitpoints per click and Rally Point Marker heals around 40k+.


    Hopefully, the last time I have to comment on this topic, but Miraculous Repair only heals a portion of the hull. 120K would make it near or complete heal. I'm not even sure which ship has over 120K hull.
    Um no... Its not only a portion..And it scales on points in Hull and shield restoration in addition to being DOUBLED by the Science Ultimate. My engineer (under the sci ultimate) heals for 90k+ per activation of that ability (which is slightly more than the total Hull for my DSD sci ship with everything/traits equipped)
    taehsong wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    If you're running with people with 50,000+ DPS builds, the queue will be over before you take too much damage.

    In ISA you are correct. However, the reason for aiming for such high Atks-In %'s is so that you can be sure that when you move into something like HSE (which is pretty much where tanks shine best), you can be sure you are capable of grabbing aggro. It's a good litmus test on how well you can grab aggro even when a high DPS'er is around.

    A recent run of mine (not quite at 50k each, but close with a total team DPS over 250k):

    NegzOMk.png

    Note I have even higher Dmg-In numbers than your example.

    If you can grab the majority of team aggro despite not being the top DPS in the team, when you get into a group with lower DPS, you'll end up with something like this:

    QpigFyX.png


    At that point, no one in the team will be in any real danger, which is basically what you should be aiming for. The only reason one might die there is either from really bad piloting, from an errant core breach or they get one-shot, which is pretty much something you cannot help.


    You might be aware but the game is a "little buggy". You have taken in 5,303,063 damage and only 1,934,888 healing and no deaths. You have 3,368,175 healed hit points unaccounted for.

    Healing 1,934,888 is also extremely high.

    1,934,888 / 356.0 = 5,435 hit points per sec

    Engineering Team II heals for about 6,615.6 Hit Points with a cooldown of 15 sec using two copies. Even taking in other healing abilities 5,435 hit points is still extremely high.

    People getting over 30K+ (usually with sub-optimal build) are "bugged". They travel faster than normal players at Full Impulse while firing weapons, that's one way to tell.

    There's a similar problem with your first run also (which lasted little over 2 mins), I can go over the numbers if you like.



    Tanking ends up mainly being in the right place and being the first to grab aggro.

    Hull regen has been pushed quite a bit by the developers; both from the DPRM and PFP, and given that Hull regen doesn't show up on combatlogs then that often is where the missing HPS goes. Combined with High Hull HP you can get quite good HPS numbers. There are other heals than ET2, and people can have wildly different numbers (my ET2 is at +9,287.1 for instance, at once every 15s that's 619.14 HPS).

    As for being able to go above 30k...you need to understand how the game works (like Damage Categories and scaling which was as topic you refused to understand because the notation failed to fit what you wanted in the past IIRC). Moving quickly is a combined factor of many things, usually EPtE + ECH, and/or the competitive engines.

    While Tanking is a factor of being first, there's generally way more factors involved, like threatscale, DPS, HPS, drain to target, distance to target, HPS to others, and if pets are attacking or not.

    In short...you're saying things when there's very obvious answers when you understand how the game works. There is a difference between bugged and over-performing; quite often the two are confused.


    I reiterate:
    You might be aware but the game is a "little buggy". You have taken in 5,303,063 damage and only 1,934,888 healing and no deaths. You have 3,368,175 healed hit points unaccounted for.

    I reiterate, Hull Regen doesn't show up in a combat log. I am aware of the game being buggy, but being oblivious to mechanics isnt the fault of the game.


    3,368,175 / 356 = 9461.1657 hit points/sec

    That would mean 100,000 hull hit point ship would be completely healed in about 10.57 secs, while in combat. Do you really believe the game developers intended for that kind of healing rate?
    Like the others I have no idea if that’s what the devs intended but passive hull regen can heal 100,000 hull hitpoints over 10seconds. Which is nothing special as powers can heal that much as well.

    With 2 consoles and 2 traits Eng Team 3 will heal 31,500 hitpoints per click. Miraculous Repairs heals 120k hitpoints per click and Rally Point Marker heals around 40k+.
    ...

    The "bug" causes people to experience vastly different results. It's easy to tell which ones are performing beyond intended design. Easiest way to tell is the speed. Lot of people who suffer (or benefit from, as the case maybe), the person doesn't even know the difference between Full Impulse and regular combat speed.

    You can also tell from DPS logs, with some people getting over 110% Critical Hit Rate. Which is simply not possible. 33% is pretty high, a stead rate of over 50% is also another obvious sign.

    There is no BUG related to Speed..High Engine Power Subsystem + EmpE+ ApO+Heal (with Comparative Engines) + Doffed Evasive = a speed of 350 from my Wells which is faster than my Full IMPULSE speeds (225)...Theres a passive(i think) you should see in the Miraculuous repairs Spec..Instant recovery of subsytem power from Full impulse :P

    Also..Sci abilities with the RnD Trait START at 50% with 250 EPG points. So If im spamming just sci abilities (Ignoring my ships on board Crit H) Ill be well over 50% critical Chance (most likely higher)

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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    taehsong wrote: »
    “You mention 2 consoles and 2 traits, all you needed to mention is how much Hull Restoration you have. You seem to be getting much higher heals than normal on Rally Point Marker and Engineering Team III.”
    Those are not high heals; if you are getting less then you have low heals. I only have 2 traits, 2 consoles which is hardly a tank build. Those heals can be pushed far higher from a full tank.

    The two traits I use are Biopatch which gives you 20% extra healing effectiveness & Radiant Nanite Cloud which takes half of the total heal and applies it again as a DoT heal. The two consoles are Regenerative Integrity field for 26.6% extra hitpoints and Sustained Radiant field for 25% extra hitpoints.
    I do not use the following but if you want to push it even further there is Imposing Presence which gives 7.5% extra & Kobali shield if you want another 10% among other items. None of these have any impact or change Hull Restoration and none of this is a bug. I don’t understand why you say “all you needed to mention is how much Hull Restoration you have.”

    taehsong wrote: »
    “Hopefully, the last time I have to comment on this topic, but Miraculous Repair only heals a portion of the hull. 120K would make it near or complete heal. I'm not even sure which ship has over 120K hull.”
    Almost all of my ships are higher than 100k as the higher the ship hitpoints the more you heal per cycle.

  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I don't see that anywhere for Miraculous Repair... maybe you mean Miracle Worker.
    Yup thats what I mean.
    Why is it all these people claiming there's no (speed and other) bugs resort to acronyms? It makes it very difficult to verify the information. You haven't even listed ships with over 120K hull hit points. Provide detailed information.

    Speed of 350, you say? The fastest full impulse engine I have is Sol Defense Impulse Engine and it runs at 24.8 full impulse flight speed with a normal flight speed of 17.7.

    350 / 17.7 = 19.774 times or you would need 1977.4% speed boost. If you were using Full Impulse you would be going even faster. 24.8 x 19.774 = 490.3952 vs 350. See I told you people who have the speed bug can't tell the difference between full impulse and regular (combat) flight speed.

    There aren't enough speed bonus trait to account for all the extra speed. The large 350% speed boosts are procs (random) with a short duration. The highest passive boost are 25% or less, that I know of.


    First of NO player ship in this game STARTS at 120k. I think the highest is like 65k before your skills and gear com into play..There are ways to get Ship up that high. Much of the Gear here will do Before specific Defectors and Sets are mentioned. https://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Hull_Capacity. With Gear tho..My Caprimul Dyson Sci Destroyer is around 80k Hull.Thats before applying Jevonite or the "Increase Hull Capacity" consumable from the compatative rep (only usable in PVP and Competitive PVE).

    DSD 8ok Hull Plus Stupid Regen (thanks ESD)..That Regen number is my Dynamic Power Redistributor and someone Elses Protomater Field Projector.Dunno where the shield regen stuff is from.They Prolly had 557% Hull Regen on that console (I suspect a healer),best I do is 500%. I was at 620% (DPR and 120% Hull Regen)

    Also look at my Miraculous Repairs..If I hit my Sci Ultimate and that number goes 2x :D Thats at 108 Hull Restoration.. @125 is a Touch over 51k.

    Second.. the acronyms are in common use in this game.Learn em as it makes taking easier.Takes a bit o time but eh..You'll get it

    Typically Before (pushing buttons) I think Im around 50 Flights Speed .My Prevailing Engines are +32.6 Flight speed (w/100 Impulse Expertise Skill) which is the same Flight speed rating I have for my Mk14 Sol Engines.There are Faster Engines out there without the the EXTRA flight speed boost the Prevailing Engines have.. On my Wells:
    Braydon: +35.4 Flight Speed +1 Flight Turn Rate
    Iconian: +35.4 Flight Speed +1.1 Flight Turn Rate
    Omega: +39.2 Flight Speed +1.1 Flight Turn Rate
    have higher flight speeds.


    So..

    High Engine Power Subsystem (Im somewhere around 60 Engine Power Resting) +
    EmpE+ ApO 1+ + Prevailing Impulse Engines w/Heal+Evasive Maneuvers+ Doff (For Super quick Evasive cooldown (like 5 seconds)
    I might have also put on Trait: Advanced Engines But I cant check cuz the servers down..

    Some Heals are a very low cooldown So that works good with this Engine.

    On my Wells for my Eng toon this is 316 Flight speed ..Full Impulse rating on all my toons for the same ship is about 225
    On my Wells for my Sci toon this is 301 Flight speed
    On my Wells for my Tac toon this is 356 Flight speed. But I added Trait: Fleet Tactician
    Observe Da Tac Wells Speeed!


    Now granted this is pushing all the buttons 1 time while staring at my Turn and Flight speed..So yea..you can Fly faster than your ships Full Impulse setting and NOT loose power to any other systems (albeit Briefly.Mines for PVP purposes..Chasing Escorts..).

    Heck with the right Ship there are people who have done https://yo1200. But That was a Speed only ship

    Heres a list of ALL KINDS of Speed and Turn Bonuses All listed here are BEFORE that skill is applied..So some can be actually higher than listed. Stuff that is saying a 35% boost to speed (and your ship is is not as Good as the stuff thats +40 .

    I'm pretty sure the person who was using an escort (Jem'Hadar "Bug" ship) at the time, didn't have 250 EPG (only 2 science slot), or have R&D Science (Particle Manipulator) slotted. You must be ignoring the over 110% crit hit (more crit hits than actually fired) rate part for some reason. I have the DPS log and I already posted the screenshot. I can post it again if you want to see it.

    Sure Id love to see where that person did 110% crit Hit.(Im assuming this is overall crit hit).That sounds like a Bug i the reader..If you could find them again and see if its really them or just an error in the reader.

    Its actually doesn't take much to reach 50% (Particle Manipulator) for the Exotic Particle Generator Skill..100 from the skill Tree + Exotic Particle Field Exciter [EPG] (This is +75 EPG )and 1 37.5 sci console at epic and either an engineering or Tac consoles with 37.5 EPG =250 EPG. Not hard..
    Post edited by odinforever20000 on

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  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    taehsong wrote: »
    I don't see that anywhere for Miraculous Repair... maybe you mean Miracle Worker.
    Yup thats what I mean.
    Why is it all these people claiming there's no (speed and other) bugs resort to acronyms? It makes it very difficult to verify the information. You haven't even listed ships with over 120K hull hit points. Provide detailed information.

    Speed of 350, you say? The fastest full impulse engine I have is Sol Defense Impulse Engine and it runs at 24.8 full impulse flight speed with a normal flight speed of 17.7.

    350 / 17.7 = 19.774 times or you would need 1977.4% speed boost. If you were using Full Impulse you would be going even faster. 24.8 x 19.774 = 490.3952 vs 350. See I told you people who have the speed bug can't tell the difference between full impulse and regular (combat) flight speed.

    There aren't enough speed bonus trait to account for all the extra speed. The large 350% speed boosts are procs (random) with a short duration. The highest passive boost are 25% or less, that I know of.
    First of NO player ship in this game STARTS at 120k. I think the highest is like 65k before your skills and gear com into play..There are ways to get Ship up that high. Much of the Gear here will do Before specific Defectors and Sets are mentioned. https://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Hull_Capacity. With Gear tho..My Caprimul Dyson Sci Destroyer is around 80k Hull.Thats before applying Jevonite or the "Increase Hull Capacity" consumable from the compatative rep (only usable in PVP and Competitive PVE)

    You must've jumped into this without reading the original text. The guy was claiming he had 120K heal with Miraculous Repair.

    Second.. the acronyms are in common use in this game.Learn em as it makes taking easier.Takes a bit o time but eh..You'll get it

    Typically Before (pushing buttons) I think Im around 109 Flights Speed .My Prevailing Engines are +32.6 Flight speed (w/100 Impulse Expertise Skill) which is the same Flight speed rating I have for my Mk14 Sol Engines.There are Faster Engines out there without the the EXTRA flight speed boost the Prevailing Engines have.. On my Wells:
    Braydon: +35.4 Flight Speed +1 Flight Turn Rate
    Iconian: +35.4 Flight Speed +1.1 Flight Turn Rate
    Omega: +39.2 Flight Speed +1.1 Flight Turn Rate
    have higher flight speeds.


    So..

    High Engine Power Subsystem (Im somewhere around 80 Engine Power Resting) +
    EmpE+ ApO 1+ + Prevailing Impulse Engines w/Heal+Evasive Maneuvers+ Doff (For Super quick Evasive cooldown (like 5 seconds)
    I might have also put on Trait: Advanced Engines But I cant check cuz the servers down..

    Some Heals are a very low cooldown So that works good with this Engine.

    On my Wells for my Eng toon this is 316 Flight speed ..Full Impulse rating on all my toons for the same ship is about 225
    On my Wells for my Sci toon this is 301 Flight speed
    On my Wells for my Tac toon this is 356 Flight speed. But I added Trait: Fleet Tactician

    The link doesn't show the %.

    You are showing numbers from a "bugged" ship. The numbers don't add up.

    Why don't you do the calculations before you start typing, so I don't have to keep doing the math for you.

    To get 356 Flight Speed

    32.6 (Prevailing Engine) Flight Speed indicates maybe you are showing the numbers you moused over the throttle (at 80 Engine Power, is it?), and not the actual engine. Prevailing engines are rated for 14.8 flight speed.

    356 / 14.8 = 2405%

    Now show me where you're getting the 2405% speed boost.


    Now granted this is pushing all the buttons 1 time while staring at my Turn and Flight speed..So yea..you can Fly faster than your ships Full Impulse setting and NOT loose power to any other systems (albeit Briefly.Mines for PVP purposes..Chasing Escorts..).

    Heck with the right Ship there are people who have done https://yo1200. But That was a Speed only ship

    Heres a list of ALL KINDS of Speed and Turn Bonuses All listed here are BEFORE that skill is applied..So some can be actually higher than listed. Stuff that is saying a 35% boost to speed (and your ship is is not as Good as the stuff thats +40 .

    Why don't you type in the information instead of me having to look them up.

    I'm pretty sure the person who was using an escort (Jem'Hadar "Bug" ship) at the time, didn't have 250 EPG (only 2 science slot), or have R&D Science (Particle Manipulator) slotted. You must be ignoring the over 110% crit hit (more crit hits than actually fired) rate part for some reason. I have the DPS log and I already posted the screenshot. I can post it again if you want to see it.
    Sure Id love to see where that person did 110% crit Hit.(Im assuming this is overall crit hit).That sounds like a Bug i the reader..If you could find them again and see if its really them or just an error in the reader.

    hvQtRwd.jpg

    Download and check the red circle. No, it's not a DPS reader bug, otherwise it would've been noticed earlier.

    Its actually doesn't take much to reach 50% (Particle Manipulator) for the Exotic Particle Generator Skill..100 from the skill Tree + Exotic Particle Field Exciter [EPG] (This is +75 EPG )and 1 37.5 sci console at epic and either an engineering or Tac consoles with 37.5 EPG =250 EPG. Not hard..


    It is difficult if you don't have EPG skill tree filled out.

    Exotic Particle Field Exciter +75 easy? It's 90 million EC for Ultra-rare and that's only 63.8 EPG.

    You fail to list Engineering and Tactical console with 37.5 EPG.

    Its 75 EPG at Epic.. And the Eng and Tac consoles with that EPG do exits..theres just 1 of each.

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  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    You must've jumped into this without reading the original text. The guy was claiming he had 120K heal with Miraculous Repair.

    Yes..And Im saying its doable WITH the Science Ultimate and more Hull Repair points than I have.I can Easily hit 100k heal..So 150 Hull Repair points should easily hit 120k hull heal...Im sure a Healer can accomplish this no prob.

    The link doesn't show the %.
    You are showing numbers from a "bugged" ship. The numbers don't add up.
    Why don't you do the calculations before you start typing, so I don't have to keep doing the math for you.
    To get 356 Flight Speed
    32.6 (Prevailing Engine) Flight Speed indicates maybe you are showing the numbers you moused over the throttle (at 80 Engine Power, is it?), and not the actual engine. Prevailing engines are rated for 14.8 flight speed.
    356 / 14.8 = 2405%
    Now show me where you're getting the 2405% speed boost.

    SO its more like 353/20.5 (Inside Esd)...On My ship...With My Engines..and My Skills..
    https://imgur.com/UDt5Bcg --But Yea Im not moving..no Throttle is applies and you see..it 34.1
    Thats them on my ship taking full use of my impulse expertise. Minor mis calc ..Resting Im at 62 Engine Power.
    Remember Each % increase is based on the base craft/engine speed. EptE is a Flat Speed boost (+What ever engine power contributes)

    And if its a "Bugged" Ship..its "Bugged" on 3 Different toons and 3 Different Races. There are ships much Faster than mine ...*looks angrily at Romulan Pilot ships..and the Banam raider..*..and their fancy Pilots abilities (and possibly Aux to Batteries + 3 Technician doffs)..

    .. Speed and Turn Bonuses check these out ..
    This lists all that % and + to Flight Speed I have found in the game..I might have missed 1 or 2. But Some of those CHANGE when you add more % or + points..Like my Evasive Maneuvers is 520% Flight Speed but its boosted by Impulse Expertise Skills.



    So..

    High Engine Power Subsystem (Im somewhere around 62 Engine Power Resting and about 47 Flight speed) +
    Trait: Advanced Engines+Trait: Fleet Tactician+
    EmpE+ ApO 1+ + Prevailing Impulse Engines w/Heal+Evasive Maneuvers+ Doff (For Super quick Evasive cooldown (like 5 seconds)

    ..Thats how I do 353 Flight Speed.

    Remember this is all based on MY ship and player stats at LVL60 with Mk 14 gear. We cant compare your ship and gear because the 2 are not the same due to what points we have in the skills and the Ships were on.
    Why don't you type in the information instead of me having to look them up.


    How about No..The info is right there..I even gave ya a link (several).

    hvQtRwd.jpg

    Download and check the red circle. No, it's not a DPS reader bug, otherwise it would've been noticed earlier.


    Looks like a Bug (With the reader or the Cannons themselves)..Or a Dev..2 min . 12 attacks with the Cannons themselves.(Not Buffed with Cannon Rapid Fire) is hardly worth worrying about.

    It is difficult if you don't have EPG skill tree filled out.

    Exotic Particle Field Exciter +75 easy? It's 90 million EC for Ultra-rare and that's only 63.8 EPG.

    You fail to list Engineering and Tactical console with 37.5 EPG.
    And you know this player has no EPG in his/her skill tree?
    Also..I dont have to list Either Consoles..Anyone who played long enough will know which ones im talking about ..(Seriously theres only 1 in each category)..
    Its only 200 Million EC for a Mk14 Epic Exotic Particle Field Exciter +75 :p (These things do go up and down in price, Ive seen em for way cheaper).. Or ..well..you know..Craft one..I sell weapons from the Lock box weapon packs to make up that amount.Given that guys DPS..Hes prolly very good and is well funded.
    Post edited by odinforever20000 on

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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    taehsong wrote: »
    “You haven't even listed ships with over 120K hull hit points. Provide detailed information.”
    You’re the one that brought up 120k hull, why should we need to list ships? Not that it matters if I really want to I can get my hull past 150k and those average heal numbers I posted are without science or EPG (Particle Field Exciter). Off the top of my head those heal numbers I posted where from my main ship with around 100k hull? Not got time to log in and double check.

    EDIT: I fly Cruisers and Carriers and almost all of them can go past 120k hull with equipment.

    EDIT2: Servers are back up: The Miraculous Repairs that heals me for 120k hitpoints per click is on my Jem'Hadar Carrier with 98k hull hitpoints. Although hull can be pushed past 150k my current setup isnt that high.
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    taehsong wrote: »
    “You haven't even listed ships with over 120K hull hit points. Provide detailed information.”
    You’re the one that brought up 120k hull, why should we need to list ships? Not that it matters if I really want to I can get my hull past 150k and those average heal numbers I posted are without science or EPG (Particle Field Exciter). Off the top of my head those heal numbers I posted where from my main ship with around 100k hull? Not got time to log in and double check.

    EDIT: I fly Cruisers and Carriers and almost all of them can go past 120k hull with equipment.

    Easily.. Pain in the rear to kill when they are that high with a skills captain manning them..

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