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The real reason why pvp stays 'dead'

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  • spacehermitspacehermit Member Posts: 314 Arc User
    I don't participate in the PvP because I don't think it belongs in a Star Trek game.

    Absolutely. PvP is dead, simply because the majority of players have no interest in it. This is Star Trek, not Star Wars.
  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I don't participate in the PvP because I don't think it belongs in a Star Trek game.

    Absolutely. PvP is dead, simply because the majority of players have no interest in it. This is Star Trek, not Star Wars.

    I wish to qualify your statement.
    I do not do pvp here because I do not like how it is implemented. If they set it so it was
    A) My PVE ship build is fine for PVP and vice versa.
    B ) A good story reason. Perhaps five on five RVR style where the KDF have objectives and Starfleet defending while going after another of their own. All set prior to 2410 so it is during the war.
    C) Actually introduce it. Not have it set to something that needs to be found to implement.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    In a game which a developer famously said, "Your fun isn't wrong," there exists a great deal of hostility toward the concept of PvP in general and towards PvP players.

    The key issue is that PvE players believe all their cool stuff will be ruined if the game is ever balanced for PvP, and they have a list if 'nerfs' demanded by the PvP community to 'prove' it.

    But all PvP players are also PvE players. Every one. When a power is bugged, such as the one time ability of Aceton Assimilators to drop anyone's power settings to zero and hold them there for over a minute, it needs correcting. The only reason PvEers didn't notice was because no NPC enemy ship spawned two per minute, immobilizing and neutering an entire team. But it was really cool when a player could do that to an NPC spawn. Those evil PvPers screamed for a nerf to a really cool auto-win button.

    So PvPers were placed, by the development team, in the position of the bad guys who nerfed everything instead of the number-crunchers who tested and retested every aspect of the game and found not only bugs and powers with unintended consequences, but found which parts were under-performing as well.

    The truth is, the PvP community may have always been small due to the outright marginalization of the community by staff and players, but they had a positive impact on game balance because they were the ones pushing the limits of the game to see what it could do, and they were the first to discover the problems.

    A robust PvP community should be everyone's goal, even if you don't PvP yourself because the Arenas are where all that cool new gear is tested to the point of failure. IDIC says there's more than one way to scramble an egg, but even now a year or more since the last Arena queue popped, the fun of PvP players is still wrong.

    As for those who say PvP has no place in Trek: TOS and TNG both had war games episodes. But then, I suppose, those episodes were later retconned to have never happened, right?
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    In a game which a developer famously said, "Your fun isn't wrong," there exists a great deal of hostility toward the concept of PvP in general and towards PvP players.

    The key issue is that PvE players believe all their cool stuff will be ruined if the game is ever balanced for PvP, and they have a list if 'nerfs' demanded by the PvP community to 'prove' it.

    Need I remind you again of what happened to SS3? Or IT? Indeed, the PvP community demanded nerfs, and they got them. Basically, whenever a PvP-er dies from something, they cry for a nerf. As a result, all of Intel died; and instead of having a real cool alternative to BFAW, we got thrown back to the old meta. Mind you, these abilities weren't bugged, just inconvenient for PvP-ers. The objections were pretty lame too; along the line of 'Whaa, IT keeps following me!' And because of an exceedingly small percentage of the player base whining, very loudly, Bort did them a solid, and killed Intel overnight. And I don't even care whether IT was difficult to counter: an extremely small minority of the player base should NEVER have such a disproportionately large influence on the game.
    But all PvP players are also PvE players. Every one. When a power is bugged, such as the one time ability of Aceton Assimilators to drop anyone's power settings to zero and hold them there for over a minute, it needs correcting. The only reason PvEers didn't notice was because no NPC enemy ship spawned two per minute, immobilizing and neutering an entire team. But it was really cool when a player could do that to an NPC spawn. Those evil PvPers screamed for a nerf to a really cool auto-win button.

    Discovering things that are clearly broken is quite a different thing.
    The truth is, the PvP community may have always been small due to the outright marginalization of the community by staff and players, but they had a positive impact on game balance because they were the ones pushing the limits of the game to see what it could do, and they were the first to discover the problems.

    That generally holds true for most MMO's. In STO, however, I see it's ere the DPS League that figured out all the cool stuff: they work with much more controlled environments, and do number crunching on reddit, for instance, on an almost daily basis. And they're also the ones that usually find broken stuff.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,535 Arc User
    Eve Online. 'You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.' :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    So far I can blame 4 things for the death of pvp:

    1 Cryptic's inability to properly balance something (now cannons are OP btw). Do they even play brah?
    2 Cryptic's businessmodel
    3 The sick grind that started with DR
    4 The playerbase mostly consists of casuals, roleplayers and 'ISA-heads'.

    It's really that simple.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Eve Online. 'You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.' :)


    I can attest to that. :) My, that was a truly toxic crowd.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    So far I can blame 4 things for the death of pvp:

    1 Cryptic's inability to properly balance something (now cannons are OP btw). Do they even play brah?
    2 Cryptic's businessmodel
    3 The sick grind that started with DR
    4 The fanbase mostly consists of casuals, roleplayers and 'ISA-heads'.

    It's really that simple.


    I LOL-ed at 'ISA-heads.' Not even totally sure what you meant by that, but it sounds funny. :)
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    So far I can blame 4 things for the death of pvp:

    1 Cryptic's inability to properly balance something (now cannons are OP btw). Do they even play brah?
    2 Cryptic's businessmodel
    3 The sick grind that started with DR
    4 The fanbase mostly consists of casuals, roleplayers and 'ISA-heads'.

    It's really that simple.


    I LOL-ed at 'ISA-heads.' Not even totally sure what you meant by that, but it sounds funny. :)

    DPS E-Peeners.

    Also I'm not interested in EVE because it has no ground combat (last I heard). I did some SWTOR though, alot of r3t4rds there sure, but atleast the PVP was fairly active, and fairly balanced imho.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »

    The truth is, the PvP community may have always been small due to the outright marginalization of the community by staff and players, but they had a positive impact on game balance because they were the ones pushing the limits of the game to see what it could do, and they were the first to discover the problems.

    "PvP community". That's a very interesting way to write "r/stobuilds moderating team".
    I mean, while they aren't probably (hopefully!) outright marginalized within most communities in game, nor by devteam, everything else you wrote applies to them much better than it does to PvPers, or anyone else in the game, for that matter.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    So far I can blame 4 things for the death of pvp:

    1 Cryptic's inability to properly balance something (now cannons are OP btw). Do they even play brah?
    2 Cryptic's businessmodel
    3 The sick grind that started with DR
    4 The fanbase mostly consists of casuals, roleplayers and 'ISA-heads'.

    It's really that simple.


    I LOL-ed at 'ISA-heads.' Not even totally sure what you meant by that, but it sounds funny. :)

    DPS E-Peeners.

    Also I'm not interested in EVE because it has no ground combat (last I heard). I did some SWTOR though, alot of r3t4rds there sure, but atleast the PVP was fairly active, and fairly balanced imho.


    Yeah, EVE doesn't have ground (unless they changed something after I left, a few years ago).
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Need I remind you again of what happened to SS3? Or IT? Indeed, the PvP community demanded nerfs, and they got them. Basically, whenever a PvP-er dies from something, they cry for a nerf. As a result, all of Intel died; and instead of having a real cool alternative to BFAW, we got thrown back to the old meta.
    Then they nerfed B:FaW. So, they are even now?
    tremere12 wrote: »
    DPS E-Peeners.
    I thought they hung out in private chat, played private queues and compared scores on some third-party leader-board in their private chat. The only "DPS chasers" I see are usually toxic try-hards that make PUGs unfun. Sort of like the toxic "PvP is better than PvE" posts I see on the forum. From the tone of your posts, I'm totally fine with the direction Cryptic is going with PvP.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    ^

    Wrong. It's a general mentality everywhere I go. Even in my fleet, which is quite a large one, the general attitude there is still "omg they nerfed everything, now I have trouble getting to 80-100k" etc. These are the types of people (aka the 'ISA-heads' or space-bar spammers) that left the game during the 'balance apocalypse'. The other part of the majority - the roleplayers and casuals, of course don't really care.

    Besides, the dps-race and the general powercreep isn't any more 'canon' than pvp (for those of you who still care about that).

    And I ain't saying pvp is better than pve, it's simply about that any healthy mmo has a nice balance of both. STO isn't exactly the healthiest, but that's another topic. The fact that they haven't even fixed the scoreboard yet (unless it's really working now - though not for me), shows the devs have an everlasting contempt for pvp (and the kdf), and that's fine. It's their game.

    Post edited by tremere12 on
  • shadowfirefly00shadowfirefly00 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    PvP is dead because quite simply it hasn't fitted in with the business model of the game since it went F2P and started selling and introducing more and more powercreep.
    Indeed, sir. Allowing real money to buy anything which provides a direct ingame advantage is a big disincentive for most people to explore PvP - there is a reason 'wallet warrior' is a disparaging term, after all. Never mind that just about everything in the lobi store would be much more sensibly found in one dilithium store or another... or that, when you assume the most conservative number of crystals in a box, and the real-money cost of a key, even in bundles, the computed prices for items end up being ridiculous (in some cases more than a complete game).

    The funny thing is, the basic building blocks for fair, money-is-irrelevant PvP do exist - recall those missions where you're given a ship for the duration? Those mechanics could be built on to provide something akin to DCUO's Legends PvP, which in turn can fuel a progression track of sorts. In its most basic form, such a track would have you start with a roster of faction-appropriate T1 ships, and then work your way up to unlock higher tiers (keeping in mind that all ships in a battle will be of a given tier). How do you get those points to unlock the higher tiers? Participating in, and hopefully winning, fights; there could even be daily/weekly challenges similar to endeavors added for spice (i.e. provide X hull healing to teammates in a single match; kill Y science vessels; et cetera).
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    PvP is dead because quite simply it hasn't fitted in with the business model of the game since it went F2P and started selling and introducing more and more powercreep.
    Indeed, sir. Allowing real money to buy anything which provides a direct ingame advantage is a big disincentive for most people to explore PvP - there is a reason 'wallet warrior' is a disparaging term, after all. Never mind that just about everything in the lobi store would be much more sensibly found in one dilithium store or another... or that, when you assume the most conservative number of crystals in a box, and the real-money cost of a key, even in bundles, the computed prices for items end up being ridiculous (in some cases more than a complete game).

    The funny thing is, the basic building blocks for fair, money-is-irrelevant PvP do exist - recall those missions where you're given a ship for the duration? Those mechanics could be built on to provide something akin to DCUO's Legends PvP, which in turn can fuel a progression track of sorts. In its most basic form, such a track would have you start with a roster of faction-appropriate T1 ships, and then work your way up to unlock higher tiers (keeping in mind that all ships in a battle will be of a given tier). How do you get those points to unlock the higher tiers? Participating in, and hopefully winning, fights; there could even be daily/weekly challenges similar to endeavors added for spice (i.e. provide X hull healing to teammates in a single match; kill Y science vessels; et cetera).
    Everything in the game can be bought with real money except rep marks.

    The only things exclusive to real money purchase are the subscriber perks.
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,051 Arc User
    honestly, at this point a decent balancing is too much to ever be a reality. I would argue, that PVP on a level playing field is the only way to bring it back and make it reasonably entertaining, if the only playable ships are prebuild ships tailored to specific roles. Preset abilites, preset gear, preset traits.
    From there, reinactment of historic battles could be a gamemode, in which prebuild ships of certain factions could fight each other.
    A whole new branch of monetisation could emerge from this aswell, by offering certain PVP setups to ship packs, similar to the admirality.
    Or specific ships becoming unlocked through performance during the game.
    Well, that would be my take on how to save or make PVP in STO an entertaining experience and a fair competition.
    Go pro or go home
  • jbmonroejbmonroe Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    So far I can blame 4 things for the death of pvp:

    1 Cryptic's inability to properly balance something (now cannons are OP btw). Do they even play brah?

    Cannons are OP now??? Well, I know what I'm doing tonight.

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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    Hunting cloaked ships is fun. Do it with a Fed Sci Ship or Klingon BoP. Perception is your friend.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    jbmonroe wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    So far I can blame 4 things for the death of pvp:

    1 Cryptic's inability to properly balance something (now cannons are OP btw). Do they even play brah?

    Cannons are OP now??? Well, I know what I'm doing tonight.


    Yes, how are cannons OP now?! CSV, at least, suffers the same accuracy penalty as FAW. Kinda forgot whether the penalty applies to CRF too. If not, I can see how they could be, erm, good (wouldn't go so far are branding them OP immediately).
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    For PVE it doesn't matter. Just join a PvP queue and get ready to be vaped, provided you aren't stacking 5 pieces of neutronium and high hp.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    For PVE it doesn't matter. Just join a PvP queue and get ready to be vaped, provided you aren't stacking 5 pieces of neutronium and high hp.


    I don't PvP, but, because of heavy diminishing returns, stacking Neutroniums will certainly not have the accumulative effect you may think it would have. Even slotting 2 Armor consoles is often a waste of space. But then again, I don't PvP.
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    For PVE it doesn't matter. Just join a PvP queue and get ready to be vaped, provided you aren't stacking 5 pieces of neutronium and high hp.


    I don't PvP, but, because of heavy diminishing returns, stacking Neutroniums will certainly not have the accumulative effect you may think it would have. Even slotting 2 Armor consoles is often a waste of space. But then again, I don't PvP.

    The mechanics in PvP are dramatically different. Basically your only option in PvP right now is to be a full-on, speedy vaper with all the p2w gadgets and exploits, or a totally bloated tank/healer. "general" builds aren't 'welcome'.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    For PVE it doesn't matter. Just join a PvP queue and get ready to be vaped, provided you aren't stacking 5 pieces of neutronium and high hp.


    I don't PvP, but, because of heavy diminishing returns, stacking Neutroniums will certainly not have the accumulative effect you may think it would have. Even slotting 2 Armor consoles is often a waste of space. But then again, I don't PvP.

    The mechanics in PvP are dramatically different. Basically your only option in PvP is to be a full-on, speedy vaper, or a bloated tank. "general" builds aren't welcome.


    Okay, I'll take your word for it.
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Oh yeah and you better have the T3 Research Lab weekly Combat Perfomance fleet boost too... another not-so little p2w thing here that's rarely mentioned. So if you aren't in a rich fleet that does that, you're gimped.

    The veterans are probably stacking boosters from the competitive rep (and god knows what else) also that actually cost dil. Very smart of Cryptic to include them...
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    tremere12 wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    For PVE it doesn't matter. Just join a PvP queue and get ready to be vaped, provided you aren't stacking 5 pieces of neutronium and high hp.


    I don't PvP, but, because of heavy diminishing returns, stacking Neutroniums will certainly not have the accumulative effect you may think it would have. Even slotting 2 Armor consoles is often a waste of space. But then again, I don't PvP.

    The mechanics in PvP are dramatically different. Basically your only option in PvP right now is to be a full-on, speedy vaper with all the p2w gadgets and exploits, or a totally bloated tank/healer. "general" builds aren't 'welcome'.

    what do you have to pay to get? what exploits?

    Figure of speech - grind your a$$ off, or pay up for the good stuff.

    As for exploits, I am referring to bugs and imbalances that these players have been specifically training for to... well, exploit and therefore score a disproportionate amount of kills. If you want an actual list, it'll be too much to write. You can either take my word for it, or not. But suffice to say, not many of the 'balance' changes have done much to improve the situation.
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