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The real reason why pvp stays 'dead'

tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
Before Delta Rising, the PVP queues were reasonably active on both ground and space. I know it because I was there, and I did PVP many times. After Delta Rising the grind became, let's say, excessive because of the new spec tree, star ship trait system and the brutal gear upgrade system to name a few. Since then things have still never been the same.

Because if you want to compete in PVP at a reasonable level, you need at least Ultra Rare gear and various traits, unlocks and lots of planning and trial and error. And since STO is an increasingly more complex MMO than your average button-mashing MMO, the average noob player is too overwhelmed to persist. In Pre-DR days, I could grind a character to peak level in a relatively short period (2-4 weeks maybe), but now the grind is a million times worse even with the Phoenix lockbox and Admirality System.

Any new player starting the game NOW, with aspirations to max everything out and eventually do PVP is in for some impossible grind... unless they are willing to sacrifice their wallets, and maybe even their life savings at the Altar of Perfect World. Also adding to the fact that a completely new player doesn't even have like 20 farm toons and various account unlocks to start with in order to have a decent amount of dilithium and other comforts.

So assuming by some chance the noob player finally gets the necessary upgraded gear with all (fleet) trait unlocks, doffs etc. etc. after a year or two of grinding, then newbie steps into the arena and gets his TRIBBLE handed to him - either through some imbalance issue and/or because he lacked skill and/or proper planning. The player will then get extremely frustrated because all his time and effort to grind everything were for "nothing", and then rage-quitting becomes the first things on his mind.

Let's net forget also that STO is also the type of game that for some reason appeals mostly to role-players and 'fun-loving' casuals (of which I am neither). Adding so much grind since DR (and grind is not something these types of players enjoy) to the game was a bizarre decision to say the least.

So you see the average player will never persist going this far because too much is required. Only a few die-hards go for it, and those die hards are actually just veterans that have been playing the game since beta, who have all the benefits on their side. Cryptic could implement some sort of a better scaling and reward system like in other MMO's, but I'm not sure if they know how to do it. Personally I have accepted the decline, and am content to PVP with friends only. I still think it's a lot of fun, but it's obviously off-turning for most people because of the elite-level dedication required.


Post edited by tremere12 on
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Comments

  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I do not think you are thinking this through very thoroughly.

    What players would PVP if: you couldn't use the gold gear, the T-6 ship's traits, immunity from various specialization traits and cooldowns from skill tree and DOFFs?
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I do not think you are thinking this through very thoroughly.

    What players would PVP if: you couldn't use the gold gear, the T-6 ship's traits, immunity from various specialization traits and cooldowns from skill tree and DOFFs?

    That's why I believe it is too late. It's unlikely they will revert back to Pre-DR.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    The real reasons PvP stays dead:
    1. Crappy rewards only once per day not worth playing except for accolades
    2. Too high minimum player requirements meaning the queues rarely pop (the latest patch needlessly complicating private matches doesn't help either)
    3. Mechanics that allow morons to troll by cloaking and hiding the rare time the queue actually pops
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I do not think you are thinking this through very thoroughly.

    What players would PVP if: you couldn't use the gold gear, the T-6 ship's traits, immunity from various specialization traits and cooldowns from skill tree and DOFFs?

    Umm...real PvP players interested in matches that is determined by skill and not gear? But then again, the better question is why would somebody like that be playing this game instead of real PvP games where the devs know how to balance things? The reason PvP is dead is because of the playerbase. The people who play this game ain't interested in a challenge based on skill. They don't want to PvP...they want to show off the e-peen. And the few people who actually want to really PvP...well they were covered up by all the e-peeners who would decry when their beloved OP build got nerfed...or they met somebody better than them and they would cry that whatever beat them is OP and needs to be nerfed. And when you have no new players coming in to your group and people leaving because it's toxic...guess what happens. And the reason it gets toxic is specifically BECAUSE you can use all the stuff you mentioned in PvP.

    Plus that. This is the worst community I've ever encountered in an MMO. The only reason I post on this awful forum is to act as a voice of reason - even if it's a minor one, because I love the game, and wouldn't want to see it destroyed completely by snowflake idiots.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Umm...real PvP players interested in matches that is determined by skill and not gear?

    And what sort of PvP player would you actually HAVE if they did NOT go through the grind??? What skills would they have? '

    Would they know what "goes" with what? What the synergy between different gear and ships and abilities are? Would they have practice knowing which heals or buffs or debuffs to throw the team?

    You are at the level of skill you have in the game because....??? Because YOU went through it. You can not belittle the time and effort you put into learning it as it unlocked for you.

    Why would you want to take away that accomplishment from them...or from YOU.

    If you go through the grind...you should be better than the "newbie". Newbie should know they are not gonna kick TRIBBLE...and if they think they can...they should be swatted back down into their place. Right?

    Expect to lose...until you don't.

    The feeling they have as they see how things start to differ as they try to catch up with you....

    And the feeling they get from finally causing you to lose your TRIBBLE.... is the priceless part of playing PvP. There might even be a pride in it for you that they got there and you helped them improve.

    And that is why you guys keep coming back.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Umm...real PvP players interested in matches that is determined by skill and not gear?
    So only players who prefer twitch-reflex gameplay are "real" PvP players?

    Not that I care, I would never call myself a PvP player at all, but that sorta sticks out.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    Which is why I maintain that Tiered PvP would help. With an upgrade to the existing level matching program which includes everything added to the game since the last time it was updated, a player could take his main into a Tier 2 match with other Tier 2 ships, and they would all be temporarily be level 20 until the match is over, with gear similarly corrected. This would allow a player at level 20 to PvP with a team of level 60 captains in their T2 ships, and nobody would have anything the level 20 captain doesn't have.

    This isn't a tweak to powers, or special gear, or an actual level reduction: the existing level matching feature only equalizes damage potential for the team. Once one leaves the team the character reverts to her original status, including all reps, traits, and passives. The program would simply turn them off for any tier which a player appropraite to the tier could not use them.

    As an example: My science captain can use Photonic Fleet which summons a battleship and two cruisers. Were I to drop to T5 my Photonic Fleet would summon three cruisers instead, and if I were to join a T4 match my summons would be limited to 3 frigates. At T3 or lower I would not be able to use the ability at all, becayse it is not available to any captain who has not advanced to Commander. I would be limited in that match, but only while I am in that match.
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,455 Arc User
    People still PvP? -_- -> Sarcasm
    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Umm...real PvP players interested in matches that is determined by skill and not gear?
    So only players who prefer twitch-reflex gameplay are "real" PvP players?

    Not that I care, I would never call myself a PvP player at all, but that sorta sticks out.

    When did I say that? Chess requires skill...and it is not determined by gear. Do you consider chess a twitch reflex game? There are a lot of ways to make the game about skill. The sad fact is, there are not many real PvP players at all...no matter what the game is. Even in MOBAs.
    Setting up gear requires skill. This is a gear kinda game.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    Gear is not unimportant in STO PvP; however, it is not as important as teamwork, it is not as important as timing, and it is not as important as developing synergy between your powers.

    A guy who understands this can take a T5 freebie ship into PvP with purple Mk XII gear and perform adequately, while a guy who does not can bring a Fleet T6 decked out with the best gold gear and become a target.

    The single biggest factor in PvP is the learning curve. To become effective in PvP one must take everything one knows about PvE and chuck it out the window. You made it to level 60, now it's time to learn how to play.

    And I promise you that if you earnestly try, PvP players will help. But first you have to accept the fact that while you can be a DPS king, PvP players learn to kill ships. There's a reason PvPers don't make the DPS leader boards: nothing in PvE can stand up to a well executed kill. The target doesn't last long enough to build up the numbers.

    I thought I could play the game when I started to PvP. It took a while, but I learned I was wrong. Then I started to learn to PvP, and suddenly I discovered I had to be really careless to die in PvE, even in a freebie BoP. Not long after that I stopped shooting at enemies and instead began to kill them. PvE ceased to be a challenge.

    And I'm not even very good at PvP. The guys who are will tell you the same.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    It's a factor of both. You need some expensive traits, doffs and set pieces to really have an edge, and then you need to learn how and when to use them (depending on your build). You might want to have at least Failsafe Scrambler to avoid getting 1-shotted. From my experience tanking/healing is 'easier' to do than running an 'escort-bee' build which requires more piloting.

    There's a lot different gear to choose from, and getting the right combination is half the work. The other half is learning through trial and error. The fact still remains though there's a lot more grind/p2w to it than it was in pre-DR days, and therefore it comes to no surprise that after DR was released the queues haven't exactly been the same.

    Nobody talks about ground PVP though, I had some fun on Otha yesterday, and we owned them, and they were cool enough not to whine about it. Ground PVP is a bit less complicated, and underrated. What you need to do is always bring Phasic Shroud and a solid shield (like the Na'Kuhl one), and the rest is up to you.

    The difference between PVP and PVE, is that in PVP the targets aren't mindless zombies waiting to get shot. They actually think, move and react, and that's the fun of it.
  • ussvaliant#6064 ussvaliant Member Posts: 1,006 Arc User

    PvP is dead because quite simply it hasn't fitted in with the business model of the game since it went F2P and started selling and introducing more and more powercreep.

    Boff skills/spec trees/traits/consoles ect were not balanced with PvP in mind and the people in charge of this game are not interested personally in this aspect of gameplay, so have left it to rot and hopefully be forgotten.

    Anyone hoping for PvP to get some real love and development better give up hope now as it is never going to happen.
    maR4zDV.jpg

    Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
  • benselassem#4731 benselassem Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    The difference between PVP and PVE, is that in PVP the targets aren't mindless zombies waiting to get shot. They actually think, move and react, and that's the fun of it.
    ^^ this. I was having my first real match in Ker'rat a few years ago, and it was a blast. Didn't know anything about how things worked, and only trying to survive. Managed that, and after some time we decided to leave it at that. On a side-note, that was when I learned about a skill called Torpedo spread...
    pmuvj73Aj
    Zone Chat and the exchange are the only PvP matches left in this game
  • telekill2012telekill2012 Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    I don't participate in the PvP because I don't think it belongs in a Star Trek game.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    I don't participate in the PvP because I don't think it belongs in a Star Trek game.

    I've long outgrown the whole canon thing. I'm purely in for the gameplay.
  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,366 Arc User
    If I were to be asked this PvP question, OP, I'd have to say, the 'real' reason there is none or very little of INSERT ANYTHING HERE is because it doesn't make any money for the developers or owners. It's a simple as that. Allegorically, if no one wants to purchase widgets, it's time to make gadgets, if you will forgive my simple example here.

    Subjectively, I myself do not PvP in any online game. I have limited time to play, due to real life stuff, mainly my job--which I need in order to make on-time mortgage payments and provide for my family. I'm sure the reader will understand. Having said that, STO, to me, has always been a Single Player Online Game. Along with that, my appreciation of all that is Trek tells me that One Ship/One Crew is how Trek is to be done if it's going to be well done. Further, if the game devotes resources to PvP, I would see that as a negative to the 'single player' aspect of STO.

    I have been, and always will be, a Gold Member. I should have bought the lifetime sub by now, but that's another story. My point is, I have been actively giving my subscription money to Cryptic/Owners since STO was in the early-release-just-out-of-beta status. I would rather see my money going to the content/play-style that /I'm/ interested in, which means, for me, Not PvP.

    The only vote I can make to game content is with my wallet. The same is true for the reverse. PvP needs funding if YOU want it to exist.

    Peace And Long Life!
    STAR TREK
    lD8xc9e.png
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,757 Arc User
    The reason I stopped PvP was boredom of doing the same map over and over again. One of the problems is the lack of maps and lack of style of maps. I had many hours of fun in the capture zone but you can only do it so many times.
  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    I do not pvp much myself. Last place I had fun doing so was Halo combat evolved. And this I think is my reasons. Maybe they are the same for others.
    In the Halo example the ground combat was all identically powerful people. The only difference was your skill and that of your opponent. Not the gear you brought with you. Some times I died ignominiously and sometimes succeeded spectacularly. And everything in between.
    Now go to a full MMO and you have to have totally different gear for PVE vs PVP. . . This feels wrong. Neither one is better than the other because PVP gear is not good in high end raids in an mmo. It is only good versus another player? Why make two builds for my character. I want to take my raid gear and fight smarter opponents and see how good I am. Not tweak a third option.

    Then a game like this. My last PvP invite was ship to ship invite 1 to 1. I was a romulan with my new DD. Yay. I had not changed my gear from the base yet when I was challenged. I had not even gotten my officers assigned. I was challenged while in line changing ships. Got laughed at by the romulan captain with a later game ship that cloaked, flew up to me and unloaded on me vaping me. But I kept on with the match since it had a few respawns. On my second go I gave up trying to setup the ship and cloaked. My opponent quit the match. . .
    Romulan challenging a romulan. Does not want to look for a cloaked ship.


    I have not bothered with pvp since as I still think wth?

    These are my thoughts on why pvp in most instances and here specifically is broken.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Umm...real PvP players interested in matches that is determined by skill and not gear?
    So only players who prefer twitch-reflex gameplay are "real" PvP players?

    Not that I care, I would never call myself a PvP player at all, but that sorta sticks out.

    When did I say that? Chess requires skill...and it is not determined by gear. Do you consider chess a twitch reflex game? There are a lot of ways to make the game about skill. The sad fact is, there are not many real PvP players at all...no matter what the game is. Even in MOBAs.
    Setting up gear requires skill. This is a gear kinda game.

    Yeah...but PvP doesn't HAVE to be.
    But in this game it is.

    Asking for the game to be turned into something entirely different is pointless. Never gonna happen. If you want to play an entirely different game, play a different game, period.
  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I do not think you are thinking this through very thoroughly.

    What players would PVP if: you couldn't use the gold gear, the T-6 ship's traits, immunity from various specialization traits and cooldowns from skill tree and DOFFs?

    Umm...real PvP players interested in matches that is determined by skill and not gear? But then again, the better question is why would somebody like that be playing this game instead of real PvP games where the devs know how to balance things? The reason PvP is dead is because of the playerbase. The people who play this game ain't interested in a challenge based on skill. They don't want to PvP...they want to show off the e-peen. And the few people who actually want to really PvP...well they were covered up by all the e-peeners who would decry when their beloved OP build got nerfed...or they met somebody better than them and they would cry that whatever beat them is OP and needs to be nerfed. And when you have no new players coming in to your group and people leaving because it's toxic...guess what happens. And the reason it gets toxic is specifically BECAUSE you can use all the stuff you mentioned in PvP.
    ^^^^^
    This...

    We may not see eye to eye on everything, guy, but when you're right, you're right :sunglasses:
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
  • postinggumpostinggum Member Posts: 1,117 Arc User
    PVP won't get sorted until the game becomes abandonware and is run by fans.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    The real reason why pvp stays 'dead' is because this is a PvE game. This is not "the worst community I've ever encountered in an MMO." It's simply a different community from what you'd want it to be. The brick wall you're running into, PvP-wise, is that you're trying to change this game into something it's not. If you want PvP, go play EvE Online or something. It's like being in the lady's room, and insisting it be turned into a men's room. Ain't gonna happen.
    tremere12 wrote: »
    The difference between PVP and PVE, is that in PVP the targets aren't mindless zombies waiting to get shot. They actually think, move and react, and that's the fun of it.

    In reality, however (like when I still played EvE Online), PvP was nothing more than a totally unfair gank fest. Rarely, if ever, did I encounter a fair 1-on-1 fight.
    ChCDpuh.jpg
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The real reason why pvp stays 'dead' is because this is a PvE game. This is not "the worst community I've ever encountered in an MMO." It's simply a different community from what you'd want it to be. The brick wall you're running into, PvP-wise, is that you're trying to change this game into something it's not. If you want PvP, go play EvE Online or something. It's like being in the lady's room, and insisting it be turned into a men's room. Ain't gonna happen.
    tremere12 wrote: »
    The difference between PVP and PVE, is that in PVP the targets aren't mindless zombies waiting to get shot. They actually think, move and react, and that's the fun of it.

    In reality, however (like when I still played EvE Online), PvP was nothing more than a totally unfair gank fest. Rarely, if ever, did I encounter a fair 1-on-1 fight.

    This is definitely a PVP game... on the forum. Now it needs to be converted actually into game.
  • silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The real reason why pvp stays 'dead' is because this is a PvE game. This is not "the worst community I've ever encountered in an MMO." It's simply a different community from what you'd want it to be. The brick wall you're running into, PvP-wise, is that you're trying to change this game into something it's not. If you want PvP, go play EvE Online or something. It's like being in the lady's room, and insisting it be turned into a men's room. Ain't gonna happen.
    tremere12 wrote: »
    The difference between PVP and PVE, is that in PVP the targets aren't mindless zombies waiting to get shot. They actually think, move and react, and that's the fun of it.

    In reality, however (like when I still played EvE Online), PvP was nothing more than a totally unfair gank fest. Rarely, if ever, did I encounter a fair 1-on-1 fight.
    Is EvE Online the one where if you get killed, your ship is Gone? I'm sure I remember reading one time, about how someone was bragging on the awesome build they were working on, and when they actually loaded it up to play, the whole community ganked them, destroyed the ship, and made them rage-quit :D:D
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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