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Turrets: your thoughts on the red headed stepchild of weapons?
gannadene
Member Posts: 81 Arc User
I've actually always liked turrets. In my head, I have this internal fantasy of playing as a carrier, with tons of turret hardpoints, firing at all angles. You know, like an old WW2 battleship. Safe to say though, STO doesn't really support my daydreams, as the hit in damage is pretty severe.
It's obvious why turrets are what they are. As simple as broadsiding and abusing FaW can be, you still have to think about it. With turrets, you just need to be in range. They shouldn't be dealing DPS at the same level as even beams. I've seen people pulling numbers with nothing but turrets, but typically they're just high DPS beam boats that replaced their weapons with turrets, halving their overall DPS. STO also isn't the kind of game where building around proc chances or multi-hits to deliver degens or debuffs is that important. As a result, if anyone ever thinks about cannons, typically it's just tossing a Counter Command reputation turret on the back of your ship for a set bonus. They're fill weapons.
So, have any thoughts on the little darlings?
Personally, I'd like to see a point defense styled console (not the literal heavy escort console) introduced at some point that brings their DPS up to par as a passive, but only if you're running a build specific to the console's intent. Or even something similar to hyper-charged weapons that necessitates performing X function to enable an enhanced turret system. Something that can be controlled easily in balance but still lets me have that fantasy of playing as a battleship.
It's obvious why turrets are what they are. As simple as broadsiding and abusing FaW can be, you still have to think about it. With turrets, you just need to be in range. They shouldn't be dealing DPS at the same level as even beams. I've seen people pulling numbers with nothing but turrets, but typically they're just high DPS beam boats that replaced their weapons with turrets, halving their overall DPS. STO also isn't the kind of game where building around proc chances or multi-hits to deliver degens or debuffs is that important. As a result, if anyone ever thinks about cannons, typically it's just tossing a Counter Command reputation turret on the back of your ship for a set bonus. They're fill weapons.
So, have any thoughts on the little darlings?
Personally, I'd like to see a point defense styled console (not the literal heavy escort console) introduced at some point that brings their DPS up to par as a passive, but only if you're running a build specific to the console's intent. Or even something similar to hyper-charged weapons that necessitates performing X function to enable an enhanced turret system. Something that can be controlled easily in balance but still lets me have that fantasy of playing as a battleship.
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Aft-mountable Single Cannons.
A specialization that introduces alternate attack modes:
-Beams: Burst Fire (causes beams to rapidly discharge in a cone similar to CRF)
-Cannons: Defensive Screening (BFAW for cannons)
The Xindi Plasma turret fires a bolt at random second target when firing, which kinda works like an point-defense if you're always firing. Not played with it before, but might be something to look into, pending spending 200 Lobi is something that's an option.
If you're wanting something for procs, the Omega Force set's two-piece is a sheild drain that's per pulse last I checked, and it actually got buffed with S13. With the changes to logging to include shield drains, you might be able to get 'decent' DPS doing that.
With a bit of tweaking to targeting settings, adding a keybind to fire off abilities, and getting the Starship Trait to extend CSV duration, you can get it to where you can just spam spacebar to have to automatically select targets and CSV anything that gets in range. Though, it can't automatically handle things coming from outside the current CSV arc.
Phoenix box is where you got it most likely, and it was orginally a pre-order item (can't remember which store, though). Also, it kinda sucks, fires like once a second tops and does almost no damage, not worth a Tac console slot.
True I mounted it on a shuttle that I never use.
Aside from the heavy escort console I mentioned, there's also:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Tactical_-_Automated_Defense_Turret
Which is a deployable that's basically just an infinite version of the little terrible ones you can buy as items. It's awful, of course.
The heavy escort console set is also pretty underwhelming, as it's one of the hundreds of 2 minute recharge abilities in the game, lasts a few seconds, isn't even particularly visible and doesn't deal much damage in the process.
You are mistaken. That is not a deployable weapon. It is just a plasma turret that is equipped in a Console Slot instead of a Weapon Slot. It doesn't always follow your target, though, preferring to seek out targetable Torpedoes and Mines if they are coming you. It was a great little Console back when the Borg had invisible one-hit kill torpedoes. They may be able to hide from you, but not from that turret.
Me too. But sadly since all/most carriers have subsystem targeting, you are 'forced' to have at least 1 beam. Add to the fact that cannon powers were stupidly made higher ranked powers which most carriers do not have access to and again you are 'forced' to use beams. I'd love to use 6 turrets. But the loss of firepower do to various reasons makes it undesirable. Just making the cannon powers ensign+ would rectify a lot of my reticence.
why? SST works with cannons too
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Thrue, and that's why single cannons and turrets work very well on science ships. I have a setup with both counter command (heavy) turrets in the aft slots, a kinetic cutting beam and all torps in front. Remember, the console you get from the mission boosts disrupter, phaser and photon torpedo damage. It is a nice setup, I think, for a science ship.
A carrier with 6 turrets and 2 hangar bays can easily handle all your story content and missions. Sure, it's not 'optimal,' you certainly won't be setting any DPS records.. but if you're just looking to have fun and go through the story missions using Turrets, there is no reason why you can't do it.
You would probably do 'ok' in Queue runs as long as you didn't do Elites. You just might get yelled at if your team sees you're firing 6 turrets.. probably best to run that with friends or fleet members who are cool with it.
All Turret builds are viable enough, it's not like it completely won't work. They just won't hit very hard and are best not taken into public queues.
I've never bought into the logic that just because you meet the very low DPS requirements for story content, then there's no reason to make it "reasonably" viable to run certain builds. The more variety the game endorses, the easier it is to enjoy the systems in play in the game.
I was running an all-turret build earlier tonight. Does about 10k generally, 30k or so during intensive queue parses. But I'm not going to be an enabler and say it's fine the way it is. If the developers can offer content, paid or not, that improves the state of the game, there's no reason at all to object to it. And the developers can't recognize opportunities to add said content unless people point it out.
I disagree with the assessment that a turret build will not hit hard. One thing to keep in mind is that turrets are all about rate of fire, 360's degree fire arc, procs and grabbing the aggro.
Personally i use a bio molecular turret build on an ambassador cruiser and melt everything in both story and advanced PVE (Elite PVE space pops too infrequently for PUG so i rarely queue for that).
Despite being downgraded the plasma explosion consoles or shield refrequencer consoles are key in these builds.
Also have to remember that a FBP is also a turret and the energy siphon is as well.
Those are some pretty solid numbers for a Turret Build, nicely done.
I haven't tried it in a while, so it's good to hear you were able to get such solid numbers out of all turrets. 10k is plenty for any story content, and 30k in queues is actually quite a bit higher then the average so well done there as well. If you're inclined sometime, it might help the OP if you posted your build, sounds like you have a pretty firm grip on turret builds. I wouldn't mind seeing it myself.
Then I retract the statement. It would have been more accurate to say they don't hit 'as hard as pure beam or cannon builds.'
20-30k is more then viable for Advanced PUGS, it's better then a lot of players and apparently it's quite do-able in an all turret build.
I don't run any 'all turret' builds, so I'll defer to those of you who know better then I do. I knew they were viable, I just don't keep active numbers on how capable they are. Thank you for the information.
Personally i like "quirky" builds and frequently test them.
Often there is no synergy whatsoever, but once in a while a combo turns out remarkably successful. The bottom line is usually understanding the strengths and weaknesses of weapons and capitalizing on those.
For those whom are not (yet) comfortable with a full turret build, try a Single cannon/turret combination on a cruiser.
I was introduced to that odd combo when testing an old PVP build on a Galaxy-X.
Single cannon/turret and a trico torpedo finisher can still be lethal. Off course that old combo has plenty of room to be upgraded, but that is another story.
Besides the lack of damage, there is another downside to it: hardpoints. No matter how many turrets you mount, they'll only be using 1-2 different weapon hardpoints, which is a very disappointing sight. So even if you run 8 turrets, you'll only get a single, tiny stream of bolts instead of having the whole ship emitting a barrage of flak, BSG-style.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Honestly, that's the most disappointing thing to me. The whole point of running nothing but turrets is the visual fantasy of peppering space with the STO equivalent of machine gun and flak fire. You can tell they never meant people to equip more than 2-3, at most.
My solution to that on my Aux to Bat build was to run Target Rich Environment with my Jupiter's Callistos (cannon frigates) along with Scatter Volley. The upkeep time isn't too bad, so you still get a nice wave of cannon fire. It's a shame it doesn't function the same as Fire at Will, and just randomly select targets. You still have to find a cluster, but it's something.
I still want that real "I'm a flak cannon war machine" feel though.
Then I read a thread in these forums called "Drinking the Protonic Kool Aid". The creator of the thread postulated an all turret build based on the Ambassador class. He explained everything clearly enough where even I could understand it. I play mostly KDF, so I looked around for a Red Side ship which had similar layouts to the Ambassador in both BOff seating and Console slots. the FT-5U Kamarag did nicely, thank you. So I copied what I could, replaced with the closest equivalent what I could not, dropped my KDF SciGuy into the Big Chair, and proceeded to have a lot of fun with the ship. To the point where I got an Invite to the old DPS 10k channel. The ship was and remains a lot of fun to play.
Next I got the carrier itch. So I purchased an FT-6 Qin Flight Deck Raptor, followed by a FT-6 Heavy Escort Carrier the following month. I wanted to keep the firing all around idea but maybe hit a little harder. So I placed single cannons up front and turrets on the rear. I have not been disappointed by either ship's build. They are both very enjoyable to use and I can more than hold my own in any STF except the Elite ones. I'm not ever going to be atop the DPS listings with either ship, however they weren't built for that.
Back to the Kool Aid thread. There were and are some very smart people who posted builds there. Then there are my builds. Which are only just okay. The original poster was using all turret builds. Even after the S13 "Balance Pass", his ideas and builds are valid for use in successfully playing STO's PvE content. With the right player and some small adjustments, they would probably do well in PvP also.
No doubt.... It would also be nice to have fore and aft heavy weapon options. Just sayin'....
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Some of the newer ships are actually more friendly with having scattered hardpoints/emitters. I actually run 4 turrets on my Acheros setup(3 dhc fore, 1 aft PEP, 2 turrets fore and 2 aft) and, to my pleasant surprise, they all seem to fire out of different points on the ship. It looks and feels fantastic when I'm coming around for another pass at high speed and a chaotic barrage of corrosive plasma is flying out of the ship from every angle.
The Vaadwaur turrets have a slight.y lower DPS score, but they come with other procs and boosts which more than make up for that slightly reduced TopNumber. The only way I could describe it, is to say that they do more within their limit, than the old set of turrets, which did less, with a slightly higher overall output. The only things which can take longer, are the ships in a Red Alert. But regular game content, pretty much just melts under the heat
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Even a dedicated tactical ship finds it easier to support beam builds with more available Ensign slots for beam buffs and an open Tac Cmdr BOff slot open for APO or whatever, which a cannon build must use for CRF3.
I know the tradeoff of high kills vs. high DPS. (I personally believe kills per match is a superior stat to track than DPS, but the game poorly assigns the kill to the ship inflicting the final HP of damage rather than to the one which inflicted 99% of the damage. But that's an argument for another day.)
Here is my proposal: New Ensign Level Turret Buffs
Turret: Point Defense = When active all turrets autotarget any small craft or destructible projectile.
Turret: Overcharge = Damage bonus to turrets only.
Turret: Barrage = A cone AoE attack mode.
This sounds interesting
Basically this. Think of the Leviathan firing upon Taris in KOTOR.
I basically just want to broadside some form of cannons and I want it to look visually appealing. I don't particularly care that they'd be weaker than fore cannons for balance.
Exactly.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'