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Hypothesis for discussion: the true difference between PvP and PvE players.

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  • usskentuckyusskentucky Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    I'm not even mad ColdNapalm. What I think would help this game immensely is a reorganization of this forum and a moderator who focuses input around questions designed to spark interest in different aspects of the game. A weekly PVP, PVE, and immersion discussion that is closely monitored and in which participants stay on track. These things always devolve into pissing into the wind. What if they had front a center, for example, three discussion threads: "PVP: Immune. Immune. Immune. And how to get around it"; "PVE: How to best beat the new Korfez Elite"; and "RP: Thoughts on the Kentari." These forums are too anarchic for their own good. Someone, either employed by Cryptic or as a volunteer with special privileges, needs to take a serious look at the utility of these forums and take an active role in shaping the conversations. This is why I gripe about doomsaying and tearing down PVP from the outside, because no sane person interested in this game would play it based on the impression provided by these threads. And no, I don't think any individual player is the problem, and I obviously don't think saucy PVPers are, either. The problem is that the vast majority of posters are not invested in the game's success. Patrick I tried your Iron Man challenge and thought it was a noble effort. And I do my best to give the feddy bears something to shoot at when I am the only KDF for miles. But let's be honest, the balance effort was lackluster at best with the same IMMUNEIMMUNEIMMUNEIMMUNE TRIBBLE, placates, now dyson rep consoles wreaking havoc. But I can't change any of that stuff. The most positive thing I've seen in a while was a fleet who came to Kerrat with four or five Malon Battlecruisers loaded to the brim with cheese. They held their own in those crappy ships and it was inspiring. Most importantly, they were not afraid to die, didn't whine about it when they did, and they appeared to a have a fun fleet outing. We need more like that.
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Cheese needs to be given disadvantages. Used to be you had to sacrifice hull or science consoles that made you a bit tougher to carry cheese. Now it's a trait.

    If PvP became about skill the trolls would think twice about running cheese and staying decloaked or they'd just leave.
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  • sharxtremesharxtreme Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    I think there is one long lived core myth among some people in STO PvP, on forums especially, and it is that STO PvP skill is NOT about building your ship with good BOFFs, DOFFs, powerful gear, cooldown management, timing, but rather about fast flying with basic gear waiting for opening provided by other team members or enemy's mistake.

    And that is and always was wrong.
    STO core mechanics are ALL about boosting and modifying your basic stats.
    Winning against any enemy is ALL about overwhelming their stats with your stats, modifications and/or timing.
    Sometimes that means droping their shield facing with energy weapons or subsys attack and finishing them of with a HY, TS, BO, other times it means penetrating their shields with exotic powers, draining their subsystems, disabling them, or by countering their attacks.

    There are only so many core ways to kill a player/enemy in the game:

    -Your weapons are stronger then their shields and hull resists
    -your abilities can drop or ignore/penetrate their shields
    -your abilities can disable enemies engines and drop their defense value
    -your damage output is higher/faster then their shield and hull regeneration rate and capacity (see first point)

    If your ship is built right you will have one or preferably more killing, escaping, survivabilty, regeneration, cooldown, control or overal timing options against any player.
    Or you will sacrifice some to be very good in just one role- healer, tank, disabler, controler, drainer, spiker, vaper etc.

    If you don't have the stats, all the fancy flying around pseudo-3D maps and lining your cannon's 45degree arc to your enemy means nothing if you cannot OUTMATCH enemy stats even for a single moment.

    There was a time when there were no this much or at all combined modifiers for weapons, special doffs, boffs, specializations, universal consoles, traits, etc., but back then captain skill stats combined with carefully picked BOFF skills and weapons provided that edge that is now comparable with much more complex setting up the ship which has exactly the same purpose.
    Defeating the enemy by boosting base stats.

    Reality is: there are many ships and builds in the game that cannot ever be defeated by even more other ships and builds given that the quality of builds and captains is the same.
    You cannot circumvent that reality by removing of things you think is cheese flavor of the month.

    And that is why i was sceptical about vanilla PvP, because at it's core it disregarded that STO is not a piloting escort dogfight game. If you start removing stuff you would face in the end with class balance and started removing APA, GDF, SNB, SS, BOFF powers, escort speed, cruisers hull, basic consoles, gear, where would it stop and what would it mean anyway?

    Perfect balance is not achievable or even desireable in a game. Escorts could not ever defeat a cruiser or a sci vessel, or vice versa.


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  • yoda2005yoda2005 Member Posts: 151 Arc User
    Am I the only one who cannot see posts by deokkent?
    Aside from them showing up WAY too late in subforum overview and his profile pic saying "Shadowban", there is just...nothing...lol
    s7CQHZ3.jpg
  • sharxtremesharxtreme Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    yoda2005 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who cannot see posts by deokkent?
    Aside from them showing up WAY too late in subforum overview and his profile pic saying "Shadowban", there is just...nothing...lol
    you're not the only one. i don't see his posts as well. he must be on what some forums call "silent ignore". meaning he is not aware he is invisible on forum
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    sharxtreme wrote: »
    yoda2005 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who cannot see posts by deokkent?
    Aside from them showing up WAY too late in subforum overview and his profile pic saying "Shadowban", there is just...nothing...lol
    you're not the only one. i don't see his posts as well. he must be on what some forums call "silent ignore". meaning he is not aware he is invisible on forum

    Deokkent has been that way for over a year.
    Something seems off with that.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
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  • yoda2005yoda2005 Member Posts: 151 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I REALLY want to know what Deokkent's saying that is so terrible that it has to be hidden.

    >> Click here <<
    That is all I could find.
    s7CQHZ3.jpg
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    So he is essentially limited to writing one-line answers that can be found via the search?
    1042856
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    @frtoaster RE: Deokkent....

    Do you remember when this started happening to people for no reason....
    It was when STO Forums moved over to Vanilla and they were still "setting things up". Some people got "stuck" like this, I forgot why. What did Trendy do to fix it?
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Remember? it happened to ME-and I was stuck like that for a year!

    Yeah, it happened to Frtoaster, too. I don't think he likes to read PvP part of forums.
    I will PM him and see if he knows how it got fixed.

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    @frtoaster RE: Deokkent....

    Do you remember when this started happening to people for no reason....
    It was when STO Forums moved over to Vanilla and they were still "setting things up". Some people got "stuck" like this, I forgot why. What did Trendy do to fix it?

    See here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/4jr9ga/umm_is_it_me_or/d3bhyuk/
    Based on what I've seen, I believe that stealth banning, or shadow banning, is a feature of Vanilla. It happens not only on PWE's forums, but also on other forums that run on Vanilla (such as the Marvel Heroes forum). Any account that gets flagged too many times has all its discussions and comments automatically hidden. The user will receive no notification that this is happening. The account page will not display the word "Banned", and the user can still see his own discussions and comments. But his comments will be hidden from other users, though they can still find his discussions if they know how to search for them.

    I believe that this happens without any moderator intervention, so it's possible to troll someone by flagging him a bunch of times with your friends.

    For evidence, see the threads below.

    where2r1 wrote: »
    Yeah, it happened to Frtoaster, too. I don't think he likes to read PvP part of forums.
    I will PM him and see if he knows how it got fixed.

    The administrators have the ability to fix it, but I don't know how.

    Technical support for these forums is horrible. The spam filter has been eating our posts for months now. Vanilla seems much more concerned about spam than about usability. Both the stealth-banning feature and the post-eating feature err in the same direction: punish first, ask questions later (or not at all).
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    frtoaster wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    @frtoaster RE: Deokkent....

    Do you remember when this started happening to people for no reason....
    It was when STO Forums moved over to Vanilla and they were still "setting things up". Some people got "stuck" like this, I forgot why. What did Trendy do to fix it?

    See here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/4jr9ga/umm_is_it_me_or/d3bhyuk/
    Based on what I've seen, I believe that stealth banning, or shadow banning, is a feature of Vanilla. It happens not only on PWE's forums, but also on other forums that run on Vanilla (such as the Marvel Heroes forum). Any account that gets flagged too many times has all its discussions and comments automatically hidden. The user will receive no notification that this is happening. The account page will not display the word "Banned", and the user can still see his own discussions and comments. But his comments will be hidden from other users, though they can still find his discussions if they know how to search for them.

    I believe that this happens without any moderator intervention, so it's possible to troll someone by flagging him a bunch of times with your friends.

    For evidence, see the threads below.

    where2r1 wrote: »
    Yeah, it happened to Frtoaster, too. I don't think he likes to read PvP part of forums.
    I will PM him and see if he knows how it got fixed.

    The administrators have the ability to fix it, but I don't know how.

    Technical support for these forums is horrible. The spam filter has been eating our posts for months now. Vanilla seems much more concerned about spam than about usability. Both the stealth-banning feature and the post-eating feature err in the same direction: punish first, ask questions later (or not at all).

    @ambassadorkael#6946 Can you give Deokkent a hand with this?
    We have not been able to see posts from him for 2 years, now....at the least.

    And I am starting to worry if stealth ghost banning will become more of a thing if the Vanilla system starts flagging people who edit their posts....instead of just deleting them.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    @ambassadorkael#6946 Can you give Deokkent a hand with this?
    We have not been able to see posts from him for 2 years, now....at the least.

    And I am starting to worry if stealth ghost banning will become more of a thing if the Vanilla system starts flagging people who edit their posts....instead of just deleting them.

    As far as I know, there is currently no connection between the stealth-banning system and the duplicate detection system that's been eating our forum posts — other than the fact that they both seem to be overly aggressive anti-spam measures designed with little regard for how false positives affect legitimate users.
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
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  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    @deokkent I think you should try to limit your posts to 200 characters or less, otherwise the search will truncate them. So far I have not found a way to make the search return full posts.
    1042856
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    @baddmoonrizin I am not sure if Kael has time to help Deokkent with forum stuff.
    Can you read the info from Frtoaster in this thread and see if you can get help for Deokkent?

    This is...pretty pathetic he has been locked out of his forum account because of this glitch, this long.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 11,028 Community Moderator
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