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WW3 in 1st contact.

skullblits#4627 skullblits Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
soo in 1st contact when they go back to earth after WW3.

riker mentions the death toll.
500 million dead. is it just me or is this number extremely small for WW3? how was earth in soo bad shape?

no functional government's he mentions as well.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,868 Arc User
    it was 600, and that is 10% of earth's current population...10% is not a small number​​
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  • k20vteck20vtec Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    Is it direct combat death? Or is the number factoring other deaths aswell? And then there was the age of post-atomic horror as well...
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,868 Arc User
    it was probably 'how many disintegrated when all the nukes went off' death​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    yeah, looked at from a certain angle it actually fits with Voyager if you assume that Montana is the crappy side of the planet, and wherever that other guy went is the nice side.
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  • skullblits#4627 skullblits Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    well with earth's current population 600 mill isn't that much. it's like under half of china's population.

    not to mention dunno what the population would of been in that time line..
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Wasn't most of the war on the other side of the planet? I mean Khan controlled an area around Asia/MiddleEast, so i'm guessing that part didn't get off too lightly.

    Perhaps the war was contained to fighting against the superhuman overlords who'd taken over a number of countries. Going to guess they were all in one area, so fighting wasn't global. But things like resource shortages and famine probably happened after or during the war.
    Places like Paris, San Francisco etc seem unaffected but it all, most of their landmarks are still intact.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,868 Arc User
    khan and his followers were in space LONG before WW3 happened​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • skullblits#4627 skullblits Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    yea but we have 10 times the population now than WW2 + in future it will probably rise.

    we are around 7 billion now or 8 billion.

    in the grand scheme of things 600million out of 7 or 8 billion isn't much. if indeed there where more deaths? be why did riker just say 600 million?

    surely they would have better idea of number of dead.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    khan and his followers were in space LONG before WW3 happened​​

    But WWIII was a follow on from the Eugenics wars (which were probably localized fighting more than global) so the two are closely linked.
    I only mention Khan because where he was located would probably have turned out to become one of the opposing sides in WWIII, an as such that area would have been a prime target.

    Truth is none of Trek's history makes much sense. If WWIII really did ressult in such massive destruction of cities then how are they all still standing in the TV shows? Paris doesn't look like it got nuked, neither does anywhere in the continental US. Such a massive global war would have left utter devastation, the examples we see in First Contact and a few episodes don't look anything like what the aftermath of a nuclear war should.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,868 Arc User
    we know absolutely nothing about the sides involved other than the fact one was called the eastern coalition *cough*starlancer plagiarism*cough*​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    soo in 1st contact when they go back to earth after WW3.

    riker mentions the death toll.
    500 million dead. is it just me or is this number extremely small for WW3? how was earth in soo bad shape?

    no functional government's he mentions as well.

    Imagine every tenth person in your neighborhood dieing and then imagine that globaly every tenth person dead, 600 million isnt a small number considering its 10% of earths entire population.

    However if a real WW3 were to happen and the nuclear option was used? its my belief the end result would be 100% cassualties with 90% dead in the first few hours and the lat 10% over the next few weeks and months.

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    soo in 1st contact when they go back to earth after WW3.

    riker mentions the death toll.
    500 million dead. is it just me or is this number extremely small for WW3? how was earth in soo bad shape?

    no functional government's he mentions as well.
    Imagine every tenth person in your neighborhood dieing and then imagine that globaly every tenth person dead, 600 million isnt a small number considering its 10% of earths entire population.

    However if a real WW3 were to happen and the nuclear option was used? its my belief the end result would be 100% cassualties with 90% dead in the first few hours and the lat 10% over the next few weeks and months.
    Realistically a 10% death toll would be concentrated in certain areas. Maybe in this universe nuclear war did happen but missile defense tech had progressed to a point where MAD wasn't a given. thus you end up with massive casualties and destruction and widespread fallout, but not a situation where every major city is gone.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    in the grand scheme of things 600million out of 7 or 8 billion isn't much. if indeed there where more deaths? be why did riker just say 600 million?

    Point of comparison: in World War 2, 60 million people died with a world population somewhere around 2.3 billion. That's 2.6% of the world population at that time (up from 0.9% in World War 1). For the projected world population at the time of Star Trek's World War 3 (probably 9.4 billion), the death toll is 6.4% of the total population. That's nearly two and a half times as destructive to the general population.

    Now think about what people had to go through during World War 2. Yeah, this is where you guys need to take a step back and find a sense of proportion. 600,000,000 is a big number.
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  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    Not exactly a STO discussion, folks - moving to more appropriate category.
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    In war deaths are not the objective. The objectives are to eliminate your enemy's ability to make war. To that end you target supply, command and control infrastructure and leadership.

    With modern weapons there is no longer a military purpose to destroying entire cities. Why destroy what you intend to rule? However, there would be great urgency in destroying enemy headquarters, assassinating particularly effective leaders, eliminating supply routes which feed resources into well defended positions, and disrupting the enemy's ability to communicate amongst themselves.

    If the 10% killed happen to be mostly politicians and military leaders, and if after the fact huge sections of the world are cut off from access to trade, it might take generations to recover globally. In fact, 600 million would be exceptionally high considering the less than 9% losses suffered by Germany in WW2 when carpet bombing entire cities was not uncommon.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,294 Arc User
    I have to assume that WW3 somehow avoided becoming an all-out nuclear exchange, such as might be seen in our timeline (it's plentifully evident that Trek is not our timeline). In a war involving mostly conventional weapons, with only limited use of nukes, 600 million dead would be more than enough to cause a breakdown in global supply nets.

    BTW, this "Starlancer", whatever it is, did not originate the idea of an "Eastern Coalition", unless it predates Heinlein's Future History (which, along with The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and the otherwise-ludicrous Sixth Column, included the idea that the Chinese, after going communist, kept expanding until they ruled most of Asia, all of Indonesia, and part of Australia). The concept is also echoed in Jerry Pournelle's CoDominium, created back when it looked like the USSR would remain a going concern, in which a series of treaties eventually concentrated all military and political power into the US/USSR CoDominium (until it was overthrown by the Empire of Man, during the Formation Wars).
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    Yeah, that's why I decided to assume that there were anti-nuke defenses that actually worked.

    honestly, even a limited use(or a scenario where only 1/10 detonated after being fired) of nukes could cause catastrophic losses. The biggest cities in the world have several million people in them. nuking London(worse if Parliament doesn't escape) would cause massive financial and social upheaval in the UK.
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    Why nuke London when you can create a small drone with a small explosive and take out the military headquarters?

    Nukes are already obsolete as anything but terror or last resort retaliation weapons.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    khan and his followers were in space LONG before WW3 happened

    No. Khan and the Eugenics war were later retconed to being later. TOS is the single lone source of it being in the 90s. It definitely takes place around the same time (if not the same conflict as) the Third World War. All references to it in DS9 and ENT bear that out.​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Why nuke London when you can create a small drone with a small explosive and take out the military headquarters?

    Nukes are already obsolete as anything but terror or last resort retaliation weapons.
    Depends on your goal. If you want to annihilate your enemies entirely they're useful. If you actually want to capture the city, yeah, not a good plan. But if you're happy to reduce the entire city to a smoking crater and wipe out everyone? Suddenly nukes are a good idea.
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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,808 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Why nuke London when you can create a small drone with a small explosive and take out the military headquarters?

    Nukes are already obsolete as anything but terror or last resort retaliation weapons.
    Depends on your goal. If you want to annihilate your enemies entirely they're useful. If you actually want to capture the city, yeah, not a good plan. But if you're happy to reduce the entire city to a smoking crater and wipe out everyone? Suddenly nukes are a good idea.

    Nuke's don't win wars on their own. Fat Man and Little Boy did not force Japan to surrender on their own at the end of WW2, it took a Soviet invasion of Manchuria at the same time to force the surrender.
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    • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
      brian334 wrote: »
      Why nuke London when you can create a small drone with a small explosive and take out the military headquarters?

      Nukes are already obsolete as anything but terror or last resort retaliation weapons.
      Depends on your goal. If you want to annihilate your enemies entirely they're useful. If you actually want to capture the city, yeah, not a good plan. But if you're happy to reduce the entire city to a smoking crater and wipe out everyone? Suddenly nukes are a good idea.
      Nuke's don't win wars on their own. Fat Man and Little Boy did not force Japan to surrender on their own at the end of WW2, it took a Soviet invasion of Manchuria at the same time to force the surrender.
      While that's a good point, NO weapon has ever won a war on it's own. Also, nukes can be used almost anywhere. It's never actually been done, but in theory you could nuke an invading army or a massed fleet.
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    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,808 Arc User

      brian334 wrote: »
      Why nuke London when you can create a small drone with a small explosive and take out the military headquarters?

      Nukes are already obsolete as anything but terror or last resort retaliation weapons.
      Depends on your goal. If you want to annihilate your enemies entirely they're useful. If you actually want to capture the city, yeah, not a good plan. But if you're happy to reduce the entire city to a smoking crater and wipe out everyone? Suddenly nukes are a good idea.
      Nuke's don't win wars on their own. Fat Man and Little Boy did not force Japan to surrender on their own at the end of WW2, it took a Soviet invasion of Manchuria at the same time to force the surrender.
      While that's a good point, NO weapon has ever won a war on it's own. Also, nukes can be used almost anywhere. It's never actually been done, but in theory you could nuke an invading army or a massed fleet.

      Wars has always been a conventional combined arms approach to victory.
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        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • neocatstarneocatstar Member Posts: 240 Arc User
        Khan was one of Soogn's children right?? Those bio enhanced people he kept failing at mentioned in Enterprise, then went to making Androids.
      • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,294 Arc User
        No, Dr. Aran Soong came much later. Khan Noonien Singh is no relation, nor creation of his.

        Is anyone here familiar with an older tabletop RPG called Twilight: 2000? (I understand it later received an update, and a later timeframe.) The basic idea of it was that WW3 had started five years earlier; there had been a limited nuclear exchange, nuking a few capital cities, but the war continued (at least in Europe) in more conventional fashion. (Your unit was on a recon mission out of a FOB in Poland, which was unexpectedly overrun by a Soviet armored division. The last message you received was, "You're on your own. Good luck.")

        According to later supplementary material, if you ever made it back to the States (our plan was to fight across the USSR, then cross the Bering Strait in midwinter), you would find what was left of your homeland embroiled in civil war. The senior surviving member of Congress was the junior senator from Nebraska, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (who had been out of town when DC was nuked) refused to acknowledge his leadership, so the two sides (as so often happens) took to fighting.

        So as you can see, even a "limited" WW3 could cause a complete breakdown of governing bodies, just by knocking out enough levels...
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      • skullblits#4627 skullblits Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
        was the war over resources? if soo how did they rebuild lol
      • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,294 Arc User
        edited April 2017
        The timeline's been being screwed with ever since "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", so the EW and WW3 were probably delayed by one of the times Kirk screwed with history. (Probably when he kidnapped the whales in the '80s, what with the early discovery of transparent aluminum, Chekov's little adventure aboard the Ranger- pardon me, the Enterprise, McCoy giving a patient a kidney-growing pill that would have given medical researchers new clues on medical possibilites, and of course the removal of Gillian Taylor from the timeline - who knows what part she would have played otherwise?)
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