Why a Nuclear Missile

ryuranger · April 2017

Hay guys Happy First Contact Day I have been watching Star Trek First Contact and when Data said that Historical Ironies that Cochrane used a Nuclear Missile to integrate an era of peace well that statement was some what true but the main reasons why he used it was because the combination of Steal and Titanium of the Missile housing helped the overall structural integrity of the Vessel when the Phoenix travels at Warp 1 plus the housing can hold the warp core were it can inject Mater and Anti-mater into the Dillitham Crystal that he discovered that created warp Plasma that interject to the Warp Nacelles. So in conclusion the main reason was to make Money and that a Nuke was perfect to make his first Warp Ship

Unknown · April 2017

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admiralnat · April 2017

Well, obviously, it's because having to gather all the metal for a new hull would be much more time consuming than just using the obvious hull right there in the local missile silo.

dirlettia · April 2017

admiralnat wrote: »

Well, obviously, it's because having to gather all the metal for a new hull would be much more time consuming than just using the obvious hull right there in the local missile silo.

^This. If i recall correctly this is exactly why it was used, it was available and about the right size and shape.

captainchaos66 · April 2017

Also, since he used an ICBM of some sort it already had the engines with enough thrust to get the ship into space, and out of earth orbit. Having to build all that from scratch, AFTER WW3 and 600 million dead I believe it was, the collapse of government, etc, etc, would have been a near impossible endeavor. As it stands it seems rather unlikely that it could be accomplished, however FICTION is AWESOME!

ryan218 · April 2017

Data wasn't saying Cochrane used an ICBM for the ironic value, just that using it was ironic. Irony doesn't have to be (and usually isn't) intentional.

For example, the irony in a technology developed to wipe out cities now serving as the primary energy source of several countries (e.g. France).

starkaos · April 2017

ryan218 wrote: »

Data wasn't saying Cochrane used an ICBM for the ironic value, just that using it was ironic. Irony doesn't have to be (and usually isn't) intentional.

For example, the irony in a technology developed to wipe out cities now serving as the primary energy source of several countries (e.g. France).

More ironic with Japan and the incident in 2011.

starswordc · April 2017

captainchaos66 wrote: »

Also, since he used an ICBM of some sort it already had the engines with enough thrust to get the ship into space, and out of earth orbit. Having to build all that from scratch, AFTER WW3 and 600 million dead I believe it was, the collapse of government, etc, etc, would have been a near impossible endeavor. As it stands it seems rather unlikely that it could be accomplished, however FICTION is AWESOME!

Math doesn't work. An LGM-30 Minuteman III, the only ICBM in current use by the United States (and thus likely similar or identical to the one Cochrane used) has a maximum speed of 7.8 km/s. Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/s.

Now, depending on how high up you have to be to safely engage a warp drive (the TNG Technical Manual doesn't say, but they always seem to be in high orbit given the amount of visible curvature of the planet), it may still be possible, but even then it's a dumb idea all around especially on a post-apocalyptic Earth. Take the fuel, for example: the theory I heard was that he used the warhead as fuel for a fission pile powering the warp engines, but that seems implausible: just for starters he'd have to have the equipment and raw materials to safely reprocess the uranium of the tamper bombs down to a much lower enrichment level.

This is a big reason I prefer the novel Federation, where Cochrane tested an unmanned probe out by Neptune as part of a large team, to First Contact.

Unknown · April 2017

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lazarx · April 2017

ryuranger wrote: »

Hay guys Happy First Contact Day I have been watching Star Trek First Contact and when Data said that Historical Ironies that Cochrane used a Nuclear Missile to integrate an era of peace well that statement was some what true but the main reasons why he used it was because the combination of Steal and Titanium of the Missile housing helped the overall structural integrity of the Vessel when the Phoenix travels at Warp 1 plus the housing can hold the warp core were it can inject Mater and Anti-mater into the Dillitham Crystal that he discovered that created warp Plasma that interject to the Warp Nacelles. So in conclusion the main reason was to make Money and that a Nuke was perfect to make his first Warp Ship

The Titan 2 booster used for the Gemini space program was originally designed to throw nukes at Russia. Then nukes got smaller and smarter and no longer needed such a massive rocket.

lazarx · April 2017

starswordc wrote: »

captainchaos66 wrote: »

Also, since he used an ICBM of some sort it already had the engines with enough thrust to get the ship into space, and out of earth orbit. Having to build all that from scratch, AFTER WW3 and 600 million dead I believe it was, the collapse of government, etc, etc, would have been a near impossible endeavor. As it stands it seems rather unlikely that it could be accomplished, however FICTION is AWESOME!

Math doesn't work. An LGM-30 Minuteman III, the only ICBM in current use by the United States (and thus likely similar or identical to the one Cochrane used) has a maximum speed of 7.8 km/s. Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/s.

Now, depending on how high up you have to be to safely engage a warp drive (the TNG Technical Manual doesn't say, but they always seem to be in high orbit given the amount of visible curvature of the planet), it may still be possible, but even then it's a dumb idea all around especially on a post-apocalyptic Earth. Take the fuel, for example: the theory I heard was that he used the warhead as fuel for a fission pile powering the warp engines, but that seems implausible: just for starters he'd have to have the equipment and raw materials to safely reprocess the uranium of the tamper bombs down to a much lower enrichment level.

This is a big reason I prefer the novel Federation, where Cochrane tested an unmanned probe out by Neptune as part of a large team, to First Contact.

If I also remember in the previous continuity, Cochrane wasn't an Earth Human but a native of Alpha Centauri, which just happened to have humans native on it as well, and warp drive was developed after first contact by STL ships.

legendarylycan · April 2017

starswordc wrote: »

captainchaos66 wrote: »

Also, since he used an ICBM of some sort it already had the engines with enough thrust to get the ship into space, and out of earth orbit. Having to build all that from scratch, AFTER WW3 and 600 million dead I believe it was, the collapse of government, etc, etc, would have been a near impossible endeavor. As it stands it seems rather unlikely that it could be accomplished, however FICTION is AWESOME!

Math doesn't work. An LGM-30 Minuteman III, the only ICBM in current use by the United States (and thus likely similar or identical to the one Cochrane used) has a maximum speed of 7.8 km/s. Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/s.

Now, depending on how high up you have to be to safely engage a warp drive (the TNG Technical Manual doesn't say, but they always seem to be in high orbit given the amount of visible curvature of the planet), it may still be possible, but even then it's a dumb idea all around especially on a post-apocalyptic Earth. Take the fuel, for example: the theory I heard was that he used the warhead as fuel for a fission pile powering the warp engines, but that seems implausible: just for starters he'd have to have the equipment and raw materials to safely reprocess the uranium of the tamper bombs down to a much lower enrichment level.

This is a big reason I prefer the novel Federation, where Cochrane tested an unmanned probe out by Neptune as part of a large team, to First Contact.

the Phoenix model was based off a decommissioned Titan II missile, not a Minuteman III

therefore, despite not being actually mentioned anywhere onscreen, the Phoenix itself was converted from a Titan II missile

starswordc · April 2017

@lazarx: No, he was Earthborn, he just settled on Alpha Centauri after escaping Earth before World War III.

@shadowfang240: That actually makes the math even worse: a Titan II ICBM only makes 6.7 km/s.

legendarylycan · April 2017

HERE it only makes 6.7; maybe in star trek, they had more powerful engines for nuclear missiles, especially by WW3

certainly they never retired the titan since cochrane was able to find one in working order, or if they did, they brought them back into service for the war

another possibility is that when converting the missile into a warp testbed (and how he managed to do that when civilization was almost non-existent in the aftermath of the war is anyone's guess), cochrane also improved the engine as well

angrytarg · April 2017

First Contact's interpretation of the first contact makes no sense. I'd rather take TOS over this, even if that means Humans somehow went to Alpha Centaury pre WW3 with sublight engines. The warp travel story is just more plausible than Roddenberry Cochrane building a warp ship from scrap. First Contact was a terrible movie.

legendarylycan · April 2017

'truth is often stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense'

starswordc · April 2017

@shadowfang240: Good engineers don't build beyond requirements: even that sub-escape velocity speed is still fast enough for the missile to accurately hit targets on the other side of the planet inside of half an hour. (This, by the way, is why missile defense is so difficult: you're trying to basically knock down a bullet with another bullet.)

In any event the Titan II was phased out of service due to age in 1987. The later Titan III and IV are still used as space launch vehicles, but they specifically said it was an ICBM and the later Titans were developed for exclusive use by the space program.

legendarylycan · April 2017

the background info section on the phoenix's page specifically said it was a Titan II they based the model of the phoenix off, so it definitely wasn't a III or IV model, but even if it was retired here, there's always the possibility it wasn't in trek's universe

remember, right around this time, sanctuary districts have started forming all across the US in trek, which isn't happening at all here

ryan218 · April 2017

As Shadow says above, it's worth remembering that in the Star Trek Universe, man had space freighters with fusion rockets by the mid-90s (the S.S. Botany Bay) and were already mining the asteroid belt (a throwaway line in Space Seed, I believe). It's even possible that Cochrane found a spare fusion rocket engine and strapped that to the missile - or, more to the point, we see what look like thrusters (possibly fusion thrusters) on the Phoenix itself.

Also, nothing about warp drive says it only works when a ship is in orbit. As long as Cochrane initialised the warp field above the atmosphere, it would have worked. The safety measures in place on warp travel in the 23rd/4th Century didn't exist yet. It's like speed limits on a motorway - just because cars didn't have 30mph speed limits in the 1930s doesn't mean cars didn't go that fast (in fact, they were going faster). The 'no warp inside a solar system/suborbital trajectory' rule is a regulation, not a physical limitation.

legendarylycan · April 2017

but we DID see the phoenix leaving the atmosphere and entering space proper before engaging warp, so either there actually IS a physical limitation or he just wanted to be safe

ryan218 · April 2017

shadowfang240 wrote: »

but we DID see the phoenix leaving the atmosphere and entering space proper before engaging warp, so either there actually IS a physical limitation or he just wanted to be safe

Entering space =/= entering orbit. The rocket was capable of getting to space, but on a suborbital trajectory. My point was that nowhere does it state that a ship has to enter orbit before it can warp.

antonine3258 · April 2017

ryan218 wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

but we DID see the phoenix leaving the atmosphere and entering space proper before engaging warp, so either there actually IS a physical limitation or he just wanted to be safe

Entering space =/= entering orbit. The rocket was capable of getting to space, but on a suborbital trajectory. My point was that nowhere does it state that a ship has to enter orbit before it can warp.

The ability to enter warp seems highly subject to local conditions (what works for an episode) - generally the less mass and material around seems to be safer, and I don't think anyone under direct fire has actually managed a stable warp field.

I'm sure Cochrane's flight wasn't under ideal conditions, though, since it was the first engineering test, but was only proof-of-concept to sell the plans to a bidder to do an implementation with some endurance.

legendarylycan · April 2017

voyager went to warp seconds after being hit by an undine beam - granted, they weren't actually under direct fire at the time, but they still took a nasty, if glancing, blow and still managed a warp field

admiralnat · April 2017

shadowfang240 wrote: »

voyager went to warp seconds after being hit by an undine beam - granted, they weren't actually under direct fire at the time, but they still took a nasty, if glancing, blow and still managed a warp field

That same ship managed warp with only one nacelle functioning. Besides, technology evolves. Voyager may not be subject to the same limitations as the Phoenix.

dracounguis · April 2017

Excellent title, it's missing the question mark and your post is missing any type of question. So I guess that means they work?

You know... you don't get charged extra for using punctuation.

jonsills · April 2017

OTOH, in TMP they were sweating the necessity (induced by V'ger's approach) of "risking engaging warp drive inside the orbit of Jupiter". Meanwhile, TVH had the Bounty engaging warp while in close orbit of the Sun in order to initiate time travel. (Couldn't they just have accelerated to, say. 99.999% of lightspeed, and coasted their way into the 23rd century?) The requirements to engage warp vary according to the needs of the individual plot.

lazarx · April 2017

starswordc wrote: »

captainchaos66 wrote: »

Also, since he used an ICBM of some sort it already had the engines with enough thrust to get the ship into space, and out of earth orbit. Having to build all that from scratch, AFTER WW3 and 600 million dead I believe it was, the collapse of government, etc, etc, would have been a near impossible endeavor. As it stands it seems rather unlikely that it could be accomplished, however FICTION is AWESOME!

Math doesn't work. An LGM-30 Minuteman III, the only ICBM in current use by the United States (and thus likely similar or identical to the one Cochrane used) has a maximum speed of 7.8 km/s. Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/s.

Now, depending on how high up you have to be to safely engage a warp drive (the TNG Technical Manual doesn't say, but they always seem to be in high orbit given the amount of visible curvature of the planet), it may still be possible, but even then it's a dumb idea all around especially on a post-apocalyptic Earth. Take the fuel, for example: the theory I heard was that he used the warhead as fuel for a fission pile powering the warp engines, but that seems implausible: just for starters he'd have to have the equipment and raw materials to safely reprocess the uranium of the tamper bombs down to a much lower enrichment level.

This is a big reason I prefer the novel Federation, where Cochrane tested an unmanned probe out by Neptune as part of a large team, to First Contact.

I prefer being lashed down to a table forced to endure an audio duo of Slim Whitman's "Indian Love Call" and William Shatner singing "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" to First Contact. The movie was a horrible experience on all counts from it's revisement of Cochrane it the sheer ineptitude of the Enterprise crew, in addition to the questionable story writing. Not that I was dissapointed, Star Trek V had forever destroyed for me any expectation of a quaity production from a Star Trek movie, which for me had reached it's peak in Wrath of Khan, had degenerated into passable fare in Three, enjoyable comedy in Four, and had gone downhill ever since until the Abrams and Whedon movies started some approximation of life in a franchise that had been dominated by banality.

And no. you can't use a warhead as an atomic power plant. It's not a pile built that way. It's a fusion bomb triggered by a fission device, it either goes off all at once, or not at all.

lazarx · April 2017

jonsills wrote: »

OTOH, in TMP they were sweating the necessity (induced by V'ger's approach) of "risking engaging warp drive inside the orbit of Jupiter". Meanwhile, TVH had the Bounty engaging warp while in close orbit of the Sun in order to initiate time travel. (Couldn't they just have accelerated to, say. 99.999% of lightspeed, and coasted their way into the 23rd century?) The requirements to engage warp vary according to the needs of the individual plot.

The EFFECTS of warp drive... what it does, varies according to plot. I can understand that writers will occasionally bend things to get a story through. But Star Trek will make huge bends for a reason with no more importance than to insert a bad joke. "You must read Shakespeare in the original Klingon!" Really? like the Klingons were totally incapable of having plays without this Chekovian attempt of cultural appropriation? And why was Spock carrying mega-gallons of Red Matter, if only one drop had been needed to stop the Hobus shockwave?

lazarx · April 2017

starkaos wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

Data wasn't saying Cochrane used an ICBM for the ironic value, just that using it was ironic. Irony doesn't have to be (and usually isn't) intentional.

For example, the irony in a technology developed to wipe out cities now serving as the primary energy source of several countries (e.g. France).

More ironic with Japan and the incident in 2011.

Actually, the working principles of atomic power, a controlled chain reaction, had been tested in a squash field in Chicago three years before Oppenheimer's bomb, so this was not a case of a sword being beaten into a plowshare, but rather the other way around.

legendarylycan · April 2017

lazarx wrote: »

And why was Spock carrying mega-gallons of Red Matter, if only one drop had been needed to stop the Hobus shockwave?

one plausible answer would be, it was only THEORY that a small drop would be sufficient to create a singularity (because the first test of the stuff was a live test); if he had only taken a drop and it had failed, more planets than romulus and remus would've been destroyed in the time needed to go all the way back to vulcan, pick up a larger amount and come back, plus by that time, the supernova might've grown too big to contain anymore

it's always better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it

markhawkman · April 2017

starkaos wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

Data wasn't saying Cochrane used an ICBM for the ironic value, just that using it was ironic. Irony doesn't have to be (and usually isn't) intentional.

For example, the irony in a technology developed to wipe out cities now serving as the primary energy source of several countries (e.g. France).

More ironic with Japan and the incident in 2011.

GOJIRA!!!!!

shadowfang240 wrote: »

lazarx wrote: »

And why was Spock carrying mega-gallons of Red Matter, if only one drop had been needed to stop the Hobus shockwave?

one plausible answer would be, it was only THEORY that a small drop would be sufficient to create a singularity (because the first test of the stuff was a live test); if he had only taken a drop and it had failed, more planets than romulus and remus would've been destroyed in the time needed to go all the way back to vulcan, pick up a larger amount and come back, plus by that time, the supernova might've grown too big to contain anymore

it's always better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it

I think he ran off with the only available containment device.... which happened to have the entire known supply.

Why a Nuclear Missile

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