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The Re-Balancing "Red Herring"

The lack of "balance" is not due to any one console or skill, rather it is largely due to lack of limits to bonus' gained from certain gear/trait combinations and also certain OP traits. The reason this will never be resolved is because to truly address "balance" issues is to reduce the value of cash/lobi items, which end result means less money in pockets of cryptic. Somehow I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. In the meantime Cryptic will continue this crusade to further limit what a f2p player can achieve under the banner of "balancing".
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    I said this in the other balance thread and got lectured for it. I've been here for a long time and have seen these balance passes before. Cryptic continues to deliver more powerful ships, weapons, consoles, traits, specializations, ...etc. The game is built on power creep. You can't maintain balance with that kind of model.
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    altran3301altran3301 Member Posts: 167 Arc User
    and yet the vast majority of players can be defeated using nothing more than purple MK XII "junk" gear against their XIV golden nugget cookie-cutter ships. Devaluing special consoles won't solve anything. The problem is players with low skill/experience whining about players with high skill/experience.
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    snipey47asnipey47a Member Posts: 485 Media Corps
    You don't need any special traits, consoles or weapons to get 100k DPS thats what many people dont realise.
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    lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,825 Arc User
    snipey47a wrote: »
    You don't need any special traits, consoles or weapons to get 100k DPS thats what many people dont realise.

    Yeah but they don't really care about 100k dps when you can reach more than double that...(Or has dps gotten to 300k since I was gone?)
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    Record is over 500k, but that's a coordinated run. You won't see that in a pug.
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    zerosinderzerosinder Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    Sorry for the noob question but how are you figuring out your dps @ 100k plus? What are you using to log the dps? Is there an in game command you can use that shows your dps in real time? I know you can see this ships damage but that changes by a huge margin depending on skill and items used. You might be able to get 250k dps but that's a "Burst" of damage and doesn't really represent a valid long term number.
    I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I do know that a ships stats are much different (Which makes no sense to me) when the ship is in or out of a combat zone. As soon as you load into a mission area it shows (The real stats?) much higher stats.
    Also if there is no in game option to record your "real" dps wouldn't you need to use some third party mod? If you are using a mod to record those stats, what one are you using and is there any danger of having your account banned for using it?

    (I'm not sure about you but I have a ton of money invested in this game. Buying ships, items and unlocks. I wouldn't wanna risk losing it over a third party mod)
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    Your correct in a fashion. These coordinated dps runs are over before tac buffs wear off. So they are in essence burst damage paraded around as dps.
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    echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,914 Arc User
    You can record your runs by typing /combatlog 1 into the chatbox before you go into a battle situation. Then you need a DPS reader to read it.

    https://www.sto-league.com/combatlogreader/

    I use this one on my desktop. It has a readme that will explain everything.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
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    tempus64tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    snipey47a wrote: »
    You don't need any special traits, consoles or weapons to get 100k DPS thats what many people dont realise.
    I would like to see that. Got a video and ship design for that? Oh. And no going into an ISA where everyone else buffs you. Use something like DPSMark.

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    tempus64tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    zerosinder wrote: »
    Sorry for the noob question but how are you figuring out your dps @ 100k plus? What are you using to log the dps? Is there an in game command you can use that shows your dps in real time? I know you can see this ships damage but that changes by a huge margin depending on skill and items used. You might be able to get 250k dps but that's a "Burst" of damage and doesn't really represent a valid long term number.
    I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I do know that a ships stats are much different (Which makes no sense to me) when the ship is in or out of a combat zone. As soon as you load into a mission area it shows (The real stats?) much higher stats.
    Also if there is no in game option to record your "real" dps wouldn't you need to use some third party mod? If you are using a mod to record those stats, what one are you using and is there any danger of having your account banned for using it?

    (I'm not sure about you but I have a ton of money invested in this game. Buying ships, items and unlocks. I wouldn't wanna risk losing it over a third party mod)
    You use a command (/CombatLog 0/1) in game to turn on the combat log with dumps the info out to a file. There are then 2 different 3rd party parsers that can be used to see your numbers. The queue ISA is used by people to get a DPS number that can be compared to others.
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    altran3301altran3301 Member Posts: 167 Arc User
    tempus64 wrote: »
    snipey47a wrote: »
    You don't need any special traits, consoles or weapons to get 100k DPS thats what many people dont realise.

    I would like to see that. Got a video and ship design for that?

    See, you highlighted an issue right there - you expect a link to a ship template somewhere.
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    tempus64tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    altran3301 wrote: »
    tempus64 wrote: »
    snipey47a wrote: »
    You don't need any special traits, consoles or weapons to get 100k DPS thats what many people dont realise.

    I would like to see that. Got a video and ship design for that?

    See, you highlighted an issue right there - you expect a link to a ship template somewhere.

    And what issue might that be? I bet you design all your own ships with zero knowledge and information from others don't you. I'm sure you do.

    But no. It would be "proof" for 3rd party confirmation.
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    I'd like to see this myself. A build using all white gear, no traits, no rep junk, no fleet junk, no specializations,...etc in a pug run doing 100k.
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    tempus64tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I'd like to see this myself. A build using all white gear, no traits, no rep junk, no fleet junk, no specializations,...etc in a pug run doing 100k.

    No pug run or they'd be relying on buffs. Ever since I stared playing this game I hear over and over how "easy" it is and new people are just "stupid". So I'd like to see it. Level 50, only regular gear, no rep gear, no fleet stuff, no traits from any later missions. no R&D traits no spec trees etc.
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    risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    I can agree that they need to stop selling power creep.

    But before anyone is going to complain about correcting the issue: take a look at the ground fixes that we know thus far. None of it is actually sold, they're all captain related abilities or just regular kit modules that won't be able to stack anymore, thereby preventing the exploitation of stuff that almost everyone can get without true effort, let alone paying for it.

    They may decide to correct the problems with power creep that's related to things they sold in lock boxes; and that's obviously hard to defend from a moral point of view. But the current fixes have little to do with that.
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    I suggested a pug run because pre-mades can really inflate numbers. A single player run or that foundry dps map would be okay too.
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    kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    altran3301 wrote: »
    and yet the vast majority of players can be defeated using nothing more than purple MK XII "junk" gear against their XIV golden nugget cookie-cutter ships. Devaluing special consoles won't solve anything. The problem is players with low skill/experience whining about players with high skill/experience.

    I was recently able to cure a fleet mate of his 'must have gold xiv to be good' mentality using blue/green mk XII in a duel with him and winning 2 of 5 and forcing him to scramble like mad with the other 3. Always nice when someone is willing to wake up and realize, knowing your ship and where/when to pop your powers is more important.

    Down side is I can't do TRIBBLE versus his current builds lol
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    I'm not sure I would even agree it's all about the "OP P2W OMG" lockbox traits and gear. In my opinion the biggest issues STO has in terms of lacking balance are a) a blatant favoritism for AoE abilities and b) a ridiculous amount of automatic health, damage immunity and regeneration anyone can get easily through the spec trees and the like.

    a) causes a gross overexaggeration of actually dealt damage by spreading the damag a AoE attack causes 1:1 or even sometimes 1:1+x over multiple targets and thus simply inflating the measured damage value - STO / Cryptic has no concept on AoE vs single target mechanics, the most basic rule is that AoE affects more targets but deals less overall damage to a target whereas single target deals high damage to a single target. In this game you never face a single target that would require single target tactics, you almost exclusively face trash mobs you eat up via AoE and when a single target pops up you simply continue to use AoE attacks since there are no penalties to it. DPS is inflated since it's always measured in ticks damage to X enemies divided through time.

    b) eliminates the need to optimize for anything but pushing out AoE damage (and any kind of teammate reliance), effectively eliminating "glass cannons" but making everyone a phenomenal tank, healer AND damage dealer.

    If people had to divide their investments in character builds at least a bit more eqqually between survivability and damage and couldn't as easily swipe away fifty trash mobs with a single attack (the favoritism of AoE has nothing to do with traits or store purchases, the basic abilities already augment damage against ALL targets) we would look at a different game.​​
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    zerosinderzerosinder Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    I gotta say I think it's possible to get 100k dps (Burst damage only though) with a green mk12 rainbow boat.
    If it's right after de cloaking with weapon power buffs and set to max power levels I DO think it would be possible in something like a t6 fleet tactical raptor. That ship would be extremely weakly defended but even some noob with a rainbow boat in mk12 green maybe able to pull this off. (Raptor also comes with the extra mini torpedo ever 4 seconds also). A flat out white build, I am unsure on this one. Also there are other factors to consider. What kinda captain? what level is he? what class?
    Huge difference if he is level 40 vs lvl 60
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    syriliansyrilian Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    Imo, rebalancing is being done to sell retrain tokens. Since the current skill system is built around this concept I suggest you expect something once or twice a year. Best u can hope for is that some things will open up for those that want to retrain for them and that it won't TRIBBLE off too many ppl.
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    warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    syrilian wrote: »
    Imo, rebalancing is being done to sell retrain tokens.
    Good luck with that, most of my toons still havent even assigned the skillpoints the first time since the revamp. :D
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I said this in the other balance thread and got lectured for it. I've been here for a long time and have seen these balance passes before. Cryptic continues to deliver more powerful ships, weapons, consoles, traits, specializations, ...etc. The game is built on power creep. You can't maintain balance with that kind of model.


    And I love it that way! :) Seriously, the intended nerfs (or, rather, what ppl are speculating on what they'll be) are bad for business.
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    deloren#8731 deloren Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Not surprising. :)
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    vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,857 Arc User
    zerosinder wrote: »
    Sorry for the noob question but how are you figuring out your dps @ 100k plus? What are you using to log the dps? Is there an in game command you can use that shows your dps in real time? I know you can see this ships damage but that changes by a huge margin depending on skill and items used. You might be able to get 250k dps but that's a "Burst" of damage and doesn't really represent a valid long term number.
    I'm asking because I honestly don't know. I do know that a ships stats are much different (Which makes no sense to me) when the ship is in or out of a combat zone. As soon as you load into a mission area it shows (The real stats?) much higher stats.
    Also if there is no in game option to record your "real" dps wouldn't you need to use some third party mod? If you are using a mod to record those stats, what one are you using and is there any danger of having your account banned for using it?

    (I'm not sure about you but I have a ton of money invested in this game. Buying ships, items and unlocks. I wouldn't wanna risk losing it over a third party mod)

    95% of the 100K club are doing it in a Borg STF with everyone feeding off everyone else's buffs. i can't imagine it possible solo. ESPECIALLY without special traits consoles ect.
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    vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,857 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I suggested a pug run because pre-mades can really inflate numbers. A single player run or that foundry dps map would be okay too.

    the few times I ran DPS I used starbase 124
    Spock.jpg

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    vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,857 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I suggested a pug run because pre-mades can really inflate numbers. A single player run or that foundry dps map would be okay too.

    the few times I ran DPS I used starbase 124

    it isn't equipment as much as traits, buffs and abilities.
    Spock.jpg

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    nickodaemusnickodaemus Member Posts: 711 Arc User
    Can we get a BUG pass?
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    tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    snipey47a wrote: »
    You don't need any special traits, consoles or weapons to get 100k DPS thats what many people dont realise.

    Yeah but they don't really care about 100k dps when you can reach more than double that...(Or has dps gotten to 300k since I was gone?)

    Worse, the top end is now up around 500k. Yes, you don't need anything special to get to 100k...if you're a tac :) How many non-tacs do you think there are with mk 12 purple gear, no fleet stuff, and limited interaction with genetic resequencers who can get 100k? I'd bet almost none who can pug it, and still only a few who get dragged along by a really high-power team steamrolling stuff.
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    tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Your correct in a fashion. These coordinated dps runs are over before tac buffs wear off. So they are in essence burst damage paraded around as dps.

    Perfect example, my 330k CCA with a 2.4 million damage hit with recursive shearing rank 3, and a combat duration so low that that single hit made up almost 50% of my dps. Anything much over 100-150k is (imo) all about how you massage the numbers, along with running a whole bevy of replicates to get one run with the highest value.
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